Matrix mafia Day 3 - no-one died? [Abandoned]

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Agreed, Tails has just put enough in for us to think that he's participating, but there was nothing of substance in his posts.

unvote vote tails

MOD- Can we get a vote count atm

I'm sorry but speculating that the Architect and the Oracle may be lovers (or that Persephone is a lyncher for the Merovingian) doesn't have much substance either.

Once again...

Have we noticed that Commander,Edocsil, Myself and strike wolf have been the only ones participating in any capacity.

Well I voted for the Haggis a while back, but in the meanwhile y'all have just been gabbing on about who could be possible roles, which is pointless. So the "capacity" is relative.

-Tails

Frankly, Strike, the way you've been wheelin' and dealin' makes me think you're cocky GF or something. You're very aggressive, and once somebody claims, you move on to the next guy. Then you vote for me when you explicitly said you were hesitant about uncovering any power roles on little evidence (so far you've got me for inactivity, which I've already explained why).

Also, while I believe that Edoc is a survivor, I think there's more to the role that he's not spilling. He's just a survivor? With a bodyguard? That seems like an easy win. While his Crusades example was brought up (wasn't that his game anyway??), that was a definite factions game, no town or mafia. I don't trust him. Sorry bud. I'm trying to imagine a survivor NOT winning if he's got a bodyguard. D1--"oh hey guys, I'm a survivor, don't worry about me, I won't hinder either one of you." Plus bodyguard and it's like 10x easier.

The ONLY way I can get past this is recruiting. But as far as I know regular docs and bodyguards don't stop recruitment, you need a different kind of doc for that.

-Tails

[strike wolf]

Ah. I remember the gabbing on comment but for some reason I had thought someone else had said it...As far as exposing you as a power role tails. I simply don't expect a wagon to get a bit more activity to force a claim out of anyone. So in between the time edoc and others are calling for haggis' head who I don't have a strong scum vibe from (we presented a case against him he defended it well, don't know what else there is to say) and I have time to actually read back again and form a new theory about someone I don't mind poking a few of the inactive players. I should have checked to see when you're actual last post had been but I had thought it was at least 3 days ago. I was mistaken.

[Dlanor A. Knox]

Sorry for being away >.>

It's going to take me a while to get around to making a full read on this game today.

However, if someone can present to me a case on a player, with full details and evidence as to why they are scum, I will happily examine that player and potentially vote if I agree.

When this game goes to Night 2, I will take the time to do a full read (because I'll probably be more free then :3)

[edocsil]

Ok, here goes nothing.

VOTE HAGGIS

My reasoning, primarily bandwagoning when it was particularly easy to do so without rousing suspicion and then trying to kill claimed town power roles.

His reason for being on the Icon wagon was this;

Wait,wait,wait. There's something very odd going on here.

1.Sax makes that ridiculous post defending icon(seriously, not only did it make no sense at all, but has anyone ever seen Sax making a post that big?)
2. icon comes up with a obscure claim(I had to google "Sati matrix", she doesn't even have a wiki page)
3.Now comes the really weird bit:

I don't understand the bulletproof bit. The character is a bit obscure but not too so. It would make a good fake claim to be handed to the mafia. That being said the character could plausibly be in the game. I just don't like the bulletproof bit. Are there any conditions to it? It would make more sense if there was.

I imagine that if seraph was to die innocent child would die as well, as she came under the protection of the oracle.

I believe he is assuming that the town will win. That being said I will unvote. If you bulletproofness is linked to the Seraph your role becomes far more plausible. And no I am not the Seraph, but it just fits better then a bulletproof child.

Here's how i read this exchange:
edoc:"Ok, not a bad fakeclaim, but you need to add more flavour. Give us something about the bulletproofness"
sax:" Oh, I've got it, how about blablabla"
edoc:"good enough, ok guys let's move on, unvote"

This just doesn't smell good at all. Sorry, but the obscure role + this very weird exchange = vote icon

To me it seems like there isn't much in there, I was doing my usual rolefishing and he votes for Icon, the one totally not speaking in the quote, after Icons claim. Fishy, Sati was an important enough character to be included (especially if you consider the symbolism of her character) and the the role fit the character well. No reason to lynch here now.

Then once Sax claims with that stupid cookie thing Haggis says;

Hmm, not sure what to make of that claim.
Anyway, there's really no downside as far as I can see to testing it.

vote Sax

At this point we had no idea how insane Sax's role was, which was pretty much the whole reason the wagon continued so long after his full claim, and he tried to get the Oracle, a role guarantied to be in a Matrix mafia, killed. That no good. He later goes on to argue for his lynch (agreeing with me, an argument I was nearly killed for) after the claim, not necessarily in the towns interest.

Then once flow asks for some help forcing me to claim says;

Got to admit I haven't been able to read the last few pages properly, just skimmed them(was away for the weekend).
But with the deadline and all I'll say that a lynch is almost always better than a no lynch.
vote edoc.

I'll try to read this more thoroughly by tomorrow.

Just following the lead of the crowd, not adding anything and keeping his head down to avoid attention. His posts count were a bit low early in the game, not so much later on. Basically I think he has been playing the ideal scum, staying active, not pissing anyone off, playing it safe.

On another note I would really like to hear what Sax's investigation returned.

Dlanor here is mine. Haggis has tried to counter it a few times, but the one he really can't talk his way out of is his vote on Sax/ He has protested that he did it after Sax claimed but that is a lie, he did it only after sax claimed name and not role. IDK your background with the Matrix but the Oracle (sax's claim) is one of the most important good guys out there. The reason we nearly lynched him after his claim was his role was crazy. Now that Strike is just kinda ignoring it I have people connected to him and I think he would be an ideal lynch candidate.

[strike wolf]

I never ignoredit. I acknowledged it as a decent starting point. In the meantime I went back to reread the thread thinking I had another case, it didn't turn out to be a good lead so I went back to the haggis case based on what you found. He defended himself well enough that I did not find it worth pursuing further at this time.

[edocsil]

I never ignoredit. I acknowledged it as a decent starting point. In the meantime I went back to reread the thread thinking I had another case, it didn't turn out to be a good lead so I went back to the haggis case based on what you found. He defended himself well enough that I did not find it worth pursuing further at this time.

I do not believe he has defended himself adequately at all. An everyone seems to ignore the point I was trying to make.


Haggis has tried to counter it a few times, but the one he really can't talk his way out of is his vote on Sax/ He has protested that he did it after Sax claimed but that is a lie, he did it only after sax claimed name and not role. IDK your background with the Matrix but the Oracle (sax's claim) is one of the most important good guys out there. The reason we nearly lynched him after his claim was that his role was crazy.

[aage]

MOD- Can we get a vote count atm

Yes, you can.

Vote Count


1. Tailgunner 3 (Safariguy Strike Saxlad)
2. Edoc
3. VioIet 2 (commander Flow520)
4. Haggis 1 (tails)
6. Strike Wolf
7. TheSaxlad
8. Commander9
10. Flow520
11. Dlanor A. Knox
12. /
13. Chu
14. Safari

Also, I'm seeing a lot of activity from a certain group of people (wut, 5 pages extra since last time i checked ) but it's not all of the players. I wouldn't mind some activity from the ones who lack it. iCon, Fircoal, /... I wouldn't mind some posts. It gets the game going.

[Haggis_McMutton]

blah

Dlanor here is mine. Haggis has tried to counter it a few times, but the one he really can't talk his way out of is his vote on Sax/ He has protested that he did it after Sax claimed but that is a lie, he did it only after sax claimed name and not role. IDK your background with the Matrix but the Oracle (sax's claim) is one of the most important good guys out there. The reason we nearly lynched him after his claim was his role was crazy. Now that Strike is just kinda ignoring it I have people connected to him and I think he would be an ideal lynch candidate.

So you admit I countered everything except(in your oppinion) 1 point in that case. yet you quote the whole case instead of stating your one point, cause a long ass "case" is more impressive right?

Now the only thing that is still in your "case". I voted sax after he claimed name but not role, therefore I'm out to kill the oracle correct?

Hmm, interesting that:

Page 26, Sax wagon starts:

Ok my money had been on edoc and sax being scum but at this point I'm leaning slightly less towards edoc and am going to vote sax. I've looked back at his giant analysis post and from what I can tell he pretty much denied being any of the town roles. Other than that the analysis he stated made very little sense as well as most of his other posts.

First vote:

Ok my money had been on edoc and sax being scum but at this point I'm leaning slightly less towards edoc and am going to vote sax. I've looked back at his giant analysis post and from what I can tell he pretty much denied being any of the town roles. Other than that the analysis he stated made very little sense as well as most of his other posts.

This is my biggest bone with Sax. He should know that there was no way to have that detailed of an idea for the game. Unvote Vote Sax for intentional disinformation.

Jump, Jump, Jump on the waggon.

Before you start a bandwagon on me, you should know that im unlynchable too guys.

and strike i never denied being a town role, in fact I am but I am not ready to give away what it is yet. There are some clues in my posts in pages before though.

If you can pick up on them they will tell you who I am.

O HAI. Hmm...

I'm not a mathematician but I'm pretty sure that unlynchable townie+unlynchable townie=unbalanced. two unlynchable townies that could subsequently be recruited by the cult and become two unlynchable cult members=even more unbalanced. Frankly I think you're lying and the fact that you've claimed unlynchable tells me that there's not really a downside to pushing for your lynch.

Strike I am unlynchable for a reason.
I am also bulletproof until someone dies.
and I am town.

O HAI X2 Wait let me make that bigger for you:
Strike I am unlynchable for a reason.
I am also bulletproof until someone dies.
So what is this? Might edoc's sole remaining point against me be a complete lie? interesting

btw, here's me not being interested in sax:

I'm not a mathematician but I'm pretty sure that unlynchable townie+unlynchable townie=unbalanced. two unlynchable townies that could subsequently be recruited by the cult and become two unlynchable cult members=even more unbalanced. Frankly I think you're lying and the fact that you've claimed unlynchable tells me that there's not really a downside to pushing for your lynch.

Strike I am unlynchable for a reason.
I am also bulletproof until someone dies.
and I am town.

I assume you're also a doctor, cop, vigilante and busdriver ...

At this point you've got to claim. You can't just say "oh btw I'm unlynchable and bulletproof. K, thnks" and expect to be left alone ...

Also, this is a comment in general. IF you are indeed a townie, for god's sake stop claiming out of the blue like this in every game. Claiming is a last resort ffs ...

Plus if we lynch him and he somehow turns out to actually be also unlynchable I'm guessing the mod will give us a few extra days(and piss himself laughing cause we tried to lynch 2 unlynchable characters on D1)

So, yeah. We want to hear you claim Sax, or we'll just test it.

This was before the role claim. Yep i showed no interest in lynching him before I knew he'd claim oracle, completely true there my bud. Also it's not like I ALREADY QUOTED THESE POSTS IN MY DEFENSE.

Furthermore, I have stated this before so many times i've gotten sick of it, but let's try it again in big letters, maybe you'll catch it:
I called Sax out for lying about his role, I kept my vote on him for lying about his role. GUESS WHAT? He was lying about his role ... Apparently being right about people lying and maintaining your position is a scumtell, sorry I didn't flip flop all over the place like you did


There is absolutely no case on me. Nothing. Yet you keep fighting, manipulating and now outright lying to get me to claim. I'm starting to think this was your plan all along. Latch on to somebody, anybody and bite tight, eventually there'll be so much discussion generated on the bullshit case you make that the lynch looks favourable only because "we already have so much info about people supporting/distancing themselves from this guy, so we might as well pursue him".

Well guess what there's two people involved in this lovely dance, how about we look at you for a moment:

1. Scummiest player in the game by far ... check
2. your own case applies better to yourself ... check and admitted

Haggis, your right, many of those arguments apply to myself. And guess what? I was nearly lynched for it.

3. two confirmed connections ... check (what happens to them if you die anyway?)
4. only alive because it seems plausible that the merovingian is 3rd party ... check and admitted

Hmm, but there's some interesting issues with this claim of yours:

1. Tails makes a good point, you're a 3rd party survivor with a faction to back you up? You are obviously not mentioning some of your powers/win conditions. Question is are the things you're not mentioning going to help or hurt the town? From the way you've been playing, I'm going to guess it's the latter. Is it perhaps part of your win condition that certain town power roles are killed? That would at least explain your massive push for claims, claims, claims.

2. You've got a 3 man faction. If you are 3rd party there should be a mafia (another 3 people I'd guess). Now you mentioned the kill attempt on Violet, so another anti-town player there? So basically if you team up with the mafia you've got the town outnumbered at this point. This seems highly unlikely.

Well you know what, if it quacks like an anti-town player and it walks like an anti-town player I'm going to guess it's an anti-town player, merovingian or not.

vote edoc

[Dlanor A. Knox]

You guys know my position on flavor speculation.

In this game, you could have Neo/Trinity being the mafia. You could write flavor for it.

You could have Agents as town.

The big thing you need to understand is that in mafia, flavor can be twisted. It's not always canon to the original series.

This being said, I would like to point out the fact that both of you have been arguing over points that have very little validity.

Ever heard of "Town on Town" arguments?

This is one of them. I don't see scum motivation in either of you. Now, I haven't read closely, but neither of these cases are satisfactory.

The point about Haggis having opportunistic votes was interesting, but then his votes were backed up with flavor speculation. As foolish as flavor spec. is, this site seems to have an affinity for it, and it cannot be considered a scum tell if that was his reasoning. :/

Anyone else have any leads? Please don't make me start a new wagon ;_;

[aage]

The Trainman checked his watch, or rather, his watches. "Damn, I'm running late! Get on the train, the lot o'ya!" Several people walked through the door past him, and a few came running down the stairs of the station. They were running late too. Too bad for them.

One of them however didn't seem very interested in getting on the train.

"Excuse me, are you the Trainman?"
"Who's askin'?"
A sigh.
"I don't have time for this shit."

BANG BANG!

Fircoal - The Trainman (Third party jailor) has been daykilled!

[edocsil]

The Trainman checked his watch, or rather, his watches. "Damn, I'm running late! Get on the train, the lot o'ya!" Several people walked through the door past him, and a few came running down the stairs of the station. They were running late too. Too bad for them.

One of them however didn't seem very interested in getting on the train.

"Excuse me, are you the Trainman?"
"Who's askin'?"
A sigh.
"I don't have time for this shit."

BANG BANG!

Fircoal - The Trainman (Third party jailor) has been daykilled!

Nice. Believe me now?

In other news:
I went back and reread the pages that was referencing. I didn't realize that when Haggis placed his vote on Sax, it was actually the second time he had done so, his vote was already there.

[Flow520]

Ok, so Edoc is the merovingian. Fine.
I strongly believe that Town should still be very cautious of this group.
Tailgunner started this argument. I wish to expand on it.

Also, while I believe that Edoc is a survivor, I think there's more to the role that he's not spilling. He's just a survivor? With a bodyguard? That seems like an easy win. While his Crusades example was brought up (wasn't that his game anyway??), that was a definite factions game, no town or mafia. I don't trust him. Sorry bud. I'm trying to imagine a survivor NOT winning if he's got a bodyguard. D1--"oh hey guys, I'm a survivor, don't worry about me, I won't hinder either one of you." Plus bodyguard and it's like 10x easier.

Moreover this:

Thanks there strike. Not helpful. Vio is of course the Twins, I am sure she will come around to confirm this later. I really don't see what you gained by this strike, a BG is only useful if it is unknown. It would have been much better for her to be investigated and come up innocent then this foolishness that I was subtly trying to divert.

As of last night someone attempted to kill her, resulting in an unusual occurrence, we are now masoned and can talk at any time. If you wouldn't, please diver your attention elsewhere and allow her to be investigated. You really have nothing to gain from killing her, as a simple investigation can prove the worth of my words and will not have the unfortunate effect of leaving me defenseless.

And this:

I have to go to work soon, so I can't post much right now.

But just wanted to claim.

What edoc says is correct.


FOS strike for stating the obvious.

I think someone is mad about not being able to kill me last night. Or if not mad, just overly suspicious.

I am the Twins. I am a survivor. I am masoned with edoc.

I went after Commander Day 1, because he was going very very hard against edoc- and I knew edoc wasn't scum. I knew edoc's role from the beginning- but it took edoc sometime to realize my exact role.

Fir was the surprise.

I figured commander had to be scum to be so relentless against a player who is no threat to the town. My goal is to survive and protect edoc.


If you read back to day 1, i made a few long posts- and if you read through the lines- this was evident.

tell us that VioIet 100% linked to Edoc and more importantly can survive a NK (if they are telling the truth).

So we have Edoc as the leader of a third party group who can not be killed until a body guard (who can take a bullet and not die but get stronger IE masoned) is killed.
That seems like it would make it too easy to survive if only scum was going after this group. IE, the group seems overpowered unless they have as part of their win condition something that would make town want to kill them.
For instance: The merovingian wanted the oracle's eyes. Perhaps this group can not win unless they kill and take the eyes of the oracle. (Which plays right along with why they were going so hard after Sax Day 1...)

[Commander9]

Unvote.

While I don't suggest us to trust Edoc's group completely, I don't see how it's good for us to pursue it at this moment. Haggis defence makes sense, so that's not a very good starting point. This leaves us with this:

Likely characters:

1. Neo - ???
2. Morpheus - ???
3. Trinity - ???
4. Agent Smith - ???
5. Oracle - Sax
6. Seraph - ???
7. Sati - 00
8. Trainman - Fir
9. Architect - ???
10. Keymaker - Mr. Squirrel
11. Agents - ???
12. Twins - Vioiet
13. Merovingian - Edoc
14. Niobe? - Safari.

Pro town:
Sax, 00, Commander9, Strike(?), safari (?), Flow

Survivors (but rather scummy):
Edoc, Vio

Around, but not posting much
Tg

MIA:
/.

Just got here:
Dlanor

Vote /.

Inactive and not contributing - the best case we have at the moment.

[edocsil]

Eh w/e my haggis case is dead so may as well go here. Unvote Vote /

[Dlanor A. Knox]

Unvote.

While I don't suggest us to trust Edoc's group completely, I don't see how it's good for us to pursue it at this moment. Haggis defence makes sense, so that's not a very good starting point. This leaves us with this:

Likely characters:

1. Neo - ???
2. Morpheus - ???
3. Trinity - ???
4. Agent Smith - ???
5. Oracle - Sax
6. Seraph - ???
7. Sati - 00
8. Trainman - Fir
9. Architect - ???
10. Keymaker - Mr. Squirrel
11. Agents - ???
12. Twins - Vioiet
13. Merovingian - Edoc
14. Niobe? - Safari.

Pro town:
Sax, 00, Commander9, Strike(?), safari (?), Flow

Survivors (but rather scummy):
Edoc, Vio

Around, but not posting much
Tg

MIA:
/.

Just got here:
Dlanor

Vote /.

Inactive and not contributing - the best case we have at the moment.

Please allow me to speak.

I am SORRY.

I cannot allow this to progress.

Unvote, or I will be forced to lead a wagon on you for this.

It is foolish to create a WAGON based upon activity.

There is 50 pages of information here.

Must I be the one to search for the clues?

[Commander9]

Please allow me to speak.

I am SORRY.

I cannot allow this to progress.

Unvote, or I will be forced to lead a wagon on you for this.

It is foolish to create a WAGON based upon activity.

There is 50 pages of information here.

Must I be the one to search for the clues?

Perhaps because I'm on to your scummate and you're trying to find a "good" way to divert attention? No, there's nothing better out there that I've seen as of now and I don't want to end this again with no lynch.

[Dlanor A. Knox]

Please allow me to speak.

I am SORRY.

I cannot allow this to progress.

Unvote, or I will be forced to lead a wagon on you for this.

It is foolish to create a WAGON based upon activity.

There is 50 pages of information here.

Must I be the one to search for the clues?

Perhaps because I'm on to your scummate and you're trying to find a "good" way to divert attention? No, there's nothing better out there that I've seen as of now and I don't want to end this again with no lynch.

You're really stretching now...

You're saying that JUST ANY LYNCH is better than a well thought out lynch? Deadline's not even that close.

Sorry. That's scummy.

Vote:Commander

[Commander9]

You're really stretching now...

You're saying that JUST ANY LYNCH is better than a well thought out lynch? Deadline's not even that close.

Sorry. That's scummy.

Vote:Commander

Feeling the heat that you're scummate is going down?

For the record, there's such a thing like coming and starting to contribute and even claiming... The last time he posted ANYTHING was January 29th and he has been around all this time. Say what you want, but when a person is around that long and posting, some pressure will not hurt and this now is the best case we've got.

You know what's scummy? Coming in and defending a player who hasn't posted for almost a month and then trying to BW a player who pointed that out. If / turns out scum, we know who's the next person that should be lynched.

[strike wolf]

Honestly Knox. Putting a bit of pressure on inactives is not uncommon here at all. It rarely leads to their lynches as unless they just say something stupid they're either replaced or show up and there's no reason to go overboard pursuing a case. It's a good way to bring attention to the inactives for the mod to scold and like commander said he has posted in other threads so it's not like he's just absent he's been around and for whatever reason he has pretty much chosen not to post in this thread. It doesn't make him scum but I do find it makes your ultimatum "don't vote him or I'll try to get a wagon started on you" look scummy.

[VioIet]

OH NOOOOO!!!! FIR!!!!!!!

OH that is awful! I really do hate day kills. I find it interesting- the lack of reactions to Fir's death. Some scummy person Day Killed him.

Poor Fir

2. You've got a 3 man faction. If you are 3rd party there should be a mafia (another 3 people I'd guess). Now you mentioned the kill attempt on Violet, so another anti-town player there? So basically if you team up with the mafia you've got the town outnumbered at this point. This seems highly unlikely.

Hmm, I don't think i quite agree with this.

I do agree that there might be another suvivor faction and surely a 3 member mafia faction. But I don't understand the anti-town statement. Since when does survivor = anti-town?
I also don't believe there is recruiting this game- which seems to be a widely believed thought this game.

And hypothetically, if there was recruiting, you still cant say who was outnumbered. Depends on how many were in the recruiting faction to begin with (normally only one). Also they would no longer be apart of the original group, so it would make the numbers of the original factio less.

Would type more, but very sleepy right now, and i can't manage my thoughts coherently. Will give it a re-read through later.

[Flow520]

OH NOOOOO!!!! FIR!!!!!!!

OH that is awful! I really do hate day kills. I find it interesting- the lack of reactions to Fir's death. Some scummy person Day Killed him.

Poor Fir

2. You've got a 3 man faction. If you are 3rd party there should be a mafia (another 3 people I'd guess). Now you mentioned the kill attempt on Violet, so another anti-town player there? So basically if you team up with the mafia you've got the town outnumbered at this point. This seems highly unlikely.

Hmm, I don't think i quite agree with this.

I do agree that there might be another suvivor faction and surely a 3 member mafia faction. But I don't understand the anti-town statement. Since when does survivor = anti-town?
I also don't believe there is recruiting this game- which seems to be a widely believed thought this game.

And hypothetically, if there was recruiting, you still cant say who was outnumbered. Depends on how many were in the recruiting faction to begin with (normally only one). Also they would no longer be apart of the original group, so it would make the numbers of the original factio less.

Would type more, but very sleepy right now, and i can't manage my thoughts coherently. Will give it a re-read through later.

Interesting. I know the text said Day killed, but I was still under the impression that it was a mod kill. Can you confirm one way or the other Aage?

Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't convinced there is any recruiting going on in this game.

[safariguy5]

Based on the day kill, it really sounds like Trinity made the kill. "I don't have time for this shit" is the line she says right after Merovingen made that long speech about wanting the oracle's eyes and Trinity provokes the Mexican Standoff. Looks to me like a Trinity role is confirmed.

Here's the problem with the argument on edoc that I see. I can buy that he might have a secondary win condition. I can also plausibly see how this might be the death of oracle. However, nobody in his faction has a killing role. So how exactly is he going to kill Sax now? He could maybe pray that the agents do it, but I'm pretty sure the doc role or seraph is probably protecting the oracle right now. The number 1 thing here is getting rid of the agents. I think that's what we need to focus on and not beat this merovingen argument again.

[aage]

Interesting. I know the text said Day killed, but I was still under the impression that it was a mod kill. Can you confirm one way or the other Aage?

Nope, no it was not a mod kill. If it were It'd have said "modkilled". Since it didn't, it's not.

[TheSaxlad]

Based on the day kill, it really sounds like Trinity made the kill. "I don't have time for this shit" is the line she says right after Merovingen made that long speech about wanting the oracle's eyes and Trinity provokes the Mexican Standoff. Looks to me like a Trinity role is confirmed.

Here's the problem with the argument on edoc that I see. I can buy that he might have a secondary win condition. I can also plausibly see how this might be the death of oracle. However, nobody in his faction has a killing role. So how exactly is he going to kill Sax now? He could maybe pray that the agents do it, but I'm pretty sure the doc role or seraph is probably protecting the oracle right now. The number 1 thing here is getting rid of the agents. I think that's what we need to focus on and not beat this merovingen argument again.

Correct although we musnt forget about it.

In that case then viewing the evidence unvote vote /

[strike wolf]

Based on the day kill, it really sounds like Trinity made the kill. "I don't have time for this shit" is the line she says right after Merovingen made that long speech about wanting the oracle's eyes and Trinity provokes the Mexican Standoff. Looks to me like a Trinity role is confirmed.

Here's the problem with the argument on edoc that I see. I can buy that he might have a secondary win condition. I can also plausibly see how this might be the death of oracle. However, nobody in his faction has a killing role. So how exactly is he going to kill Sax now? He could maybe pray that the agents do it, but I'm pretty sure the doc role or seraph is probably protecting the oracle right now. The number 1 thing here is getting rid of the agents. I think that's what we need to focus on and not beat this merovingen argument again.

Agreed on Trinity and the kill itself seems doesn't smell of a scum kill anyways (why risk confirming edoc's group as 3rd party and of no threat? and even if they were to do that I think they would aim at vio so they could potentially leave Edoc unprotected). So I think we have a day vig who was most likely either trying to confirm or deny the validity of Edoc's claim or felt his group was anti-town not just survivor oriented. I could be wrong but it did not smell like a scum kill.

As far as a secondary win condition for them, Edoc's faction is very powerful with protective roles for a group that simply needs to survive (and we don't even know any potential abilities Edoc has) it may simply be that they need to keep Edoc alive through end game or it could be something a bit more sinister.

I really don't have the focus right now to reread this thread again but I don't think I'm going to find another legitimate case without reviewing it again...