Americans

[ritz627]

I must say this, its not the stomach we don't have, its the brain we do have.

"A conservative at 20 has no heart; a liberal at 40 has no brain"
-Winston Churchill

Had to.
Just having fun with you. We can agree to disagree.
I wouldn't expect to change anyone's mind nor do I expect anyone here to change mine.
Especially in an internet forum.

Just chiming in with my .02

Well first off, I'm 17, but thats beyond the point. . And its good to know that some conservatives can argue in somewhat good spirit. But a Churchill quote?? Thats a low blow...as well as its 60 years old and probably doesnt apply to American politics anymore. To rephrase what he probably would've said today:

"A conservative at 20 has no heart; a conservative at 40 has no brain"





now thats a low blow...

[ritz627]

unriggable, thats impressive.

I never knew that (seriously). Thats some good research.

Yea...thats some powerful statistics.

[Iz Man]

Well first off, I'm 17, but thats beyond the point.

Actually, you being 17 is quite a real point.
Wait 'till you start paying for a mortgage, kids in school, blah blah blah.
And TAXES.......Real taxes, not the ol' 1040EZ form.

You'll find Churchill was spot on.

Unfortunately the world is not all "I'm ok, you're ok, group hug, kumbaya".

It's nice to believe that when you're young. It's just plain not the case.
There are VERY evil twisted people out there that want to kill you, ritz, just because you don't subscribe to their ideologies. These people must be met with obliterating force on their territory so we don't have to fight them on ours.

"An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile, hoping it eats him last"
-Winston Churchill

"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from anything. Never!"
-Winston Churchill

"I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat"
-Winston Churchill

Hardly the words of a liberal.

Oh, I almost forgot my personal favorite:
"I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly"
-Winston Churchill

[Titanic]

but yet it is Clinton's fault for 9/11 so i think it balances out

Wtf?!? How? There is no way you can blame him alone? When the 1993 bombing happened he missiled Afghanistan. No one would have supported an invasion on Afghanistan then, and he would have been unpopular. The republicans used to say that he was using too much resources against Bin Laden and terrorism. 9/11 was the CIA and FBI and other US intelligence agenices faults. There too bothered about their own standing and egos then about cooperation. If they actually did their job properly they would have stoped 9/11. All the clues and evidence was there beforehand, but they screwed it up completely.

[feiterman]

but yet it is Clinton's fault for 9/11 so i think it balances out

Wtf?!? How? There is no way you can blame him alone? When the 1993 bombing happened he missiled Afghanistan. No one would have supported an invasion on Afghanistan then, and he would have been unpopular. The republicans used to say that he was using too much resources against Bin Laden and terrorism. 9/11 was the CIA and FBI and other US intelligence agenices faults. There too bothered about their own standing and egos then about cooperation. If they actually did their job properly they would have stoped 9/11. All the clues and evidence was there beforehand, but they screwed it up completely.

During his presidency it was being planned he had the chance to stop, i dont give a f*ck if the agencies arent working together he was the f*cking president, if he told them to work together they would have, but he didnt, its not all his fault because bush had about like 9 months to stop when he came in, but Clinton had a much longer time to try to stop, but he didnt

[Iz Man]

9-11 was Bin-Laden's fault.

The problem is Dem's and Rep's, Lib's and Con's are fighting amongst themselves instead of uniting against a common enemy.
(who wants to kill all of you BTW, no matter what your political preference)

If America was a united front, this conflict could very well have been resolved a while ago.

[feiterman]

9-11 was Bin-Laden's fault.

The problem is Dem's and Rep's, Lib's and Con's are fighting amongst themselves instead of uniting against a common enemy.
(who wants to kill all of you BTW, no matter what your political preference)

If America was a united front, this conflict could very well have been resolved a while ago.

hmm ok he wins

[admiral217]

I love all the Churchill quotes in this thread. Also, how can anyone say that quotes from the past have no bearing on the present? What happened to learning the past so that we don't repeat it? Also, sometimes quotes can be the most poignant thing one can add to a conversation.

[ClessAlvein]

9-11 was Bin-Laden's fault.

The problem is Dem's and Rep's, Lib's and Con's are fighting amongst themselves instead of uniting against a common enemy.
(who wants to kill all of you BTW, no matter what your political preference)

If America was a united front, this conflict could very well have been resolved a while ago.

And perhaps 9/11 would never have happened at all if the United States' domestic attitude towards the foreign wasn't simply the unseen enemy who can't be reasoned with and who will stop at nothing to destroy us from the end of World War II to present time.

[Iz Man]

And perhaps 9/11 would never have happened at all if the United States' domestic attitude towards the foreign wasn't simply the unseen enemy who can't be reasoned with and who will stop at nothing to destroy us from the end of World War II to present time.

The Islamic extremists who are the enemy cannot be reasoned with and will stop at nothing to destroy us.
The only thing they understand is force.

Churchill does have some great quotes though, doesn't he...

[Psilocbin]

Bush is a major faggot that can't even talk without messing himself over.

[Iz Man]

Bush is a major faggot that can't even talk without messing himself over.

Way to offer constructive insight.


Have another shroom

[Anarkistsdream]

Bush is a major faggot that can't even talk without messing himself over.

Way to offer constructive insight.


Have another shroom

Hell, he didn't spell that right... Must have been tripping when he made his name... Although I do believe that is the way it is spelled in French...

And what is 'messing himself over'?

[Titanic]

but yet it is Clinton's fault for 9/11 so i think it balances out

Wtf?!? How? There is no way you can blame him alone? When the 1993 bombing happened he missiled Afghanistan. No one would have supported an invasion on Afghanistan then, and he would have been unpopular. The republicans used to say that he was using too much resources against Bin Laden and terrorism. 9/11 was the CIA and FBI and other US intelligence agenices faults. There too bothered about their own standing and egos then about cooperation. If they actually did their job properly they would have stoped 9/11. All the clues and evidence was there beforehand, but they screwed it up completely.

During his presidency it was being planned he had the chance to stop, i dont give a f*ck if the agencies arent working together he was the f*cking president, if he told them to work together they would have, but he didnt, its not all his fault because bush had about like 9 months to stop when he came in, but Clinton had a much longer time to try to stop, but he didnt

LOL. Do you know, since Bush came in power till 9/11, he never hd a metting about Bin Laden. He didn even care. At least Clinton tried to stop Bin Laden. Also, if the FBI and CIA are not cooperating, theres not too much Clinton can do, as it is a fault in the way the organisation are run, not because of Clinton. Also, the head of the CIA is a complete trash head. He gave the FBI pictures of the terrorists before 9/11, but didn give the names. he knew the names of the terrorists as well. He then told the FBI to give as much detail about them as possible, without their fcking names, which he knew!!!

Clinton did what he could, and tried his hardest to stop Bin Laden, and got closer to killing him then anyone since. Bush only responded and started looking for him post-9/11.

[feiterman]

but yet it is Clinton's fault for 9/11 so i think it balances out

Wtf?!? How? There is no way you can blame him alone? When the 1993 bombing happened he missiled Afghanistan. No one would have supported an invasion on Afghanistan then, and he would have been unpopular. The republicans used to say that he was using too much resources against Bin Laden and terrorism. 9/11 was the CIA and FBI and other US intelligence agenices faults. There too bothered about their own standing and egos then about cooperation. If they actually did their job properly they would have stoped 9/11. All the clues and evidence was there beforehand, but they screwed it up completely.

During his presidency it was being planned he had the chance to stop, i dont give a f*ck if the agencies arent working together he was the f*cking president, if he told them to work together they would have, but he didnt, its not all his fault because bush had about like 9 months to stop when he came in, but Clinton had a much longer time to try to stop, but he didnt

LOL. Do you know, since Bush came in power till 9/11, he never hd a metting about Bin Laden. He didn even care. At least Clinton tried to stop Bin Laden. Also, if the FBI and CIA are not cooperating, theres not too much Clinton can do, as it is a fault in the way the organisation are run, not because of Clinton. Also, the head of the CIA is a complete trash head. He gave the FBI pictures of the terrorists before 9/11, but didn give the names. he knew the names of the terrorists as well. He then told the FBI to give as much detail about them as possible, without their fcking names, which he knew!!!

Clinton did what he could, and tried his hardest to stop Bin Laden, and got closer to killing him then anyone since. Bush only responded and started looking for him post-9/11.

Clinton could have made the two agencies cooperate in a heartbeat, he could have fired both of the people in charge and put ones in that would have done the job, but he didn't, and i did say Bush had a chance to too, and fucked up, but eight years is a lot longer than 9 months

[Psilocbin]

Bush is a major faggot that can't even talk without messing himself over.

Way to offer constructive insight.


Have another shroom

Hell, he didn't spell that right... Must have been tripping when he made his name... Although I do believe that is the way it is spelled in French...

And what is 'messing himself over'?

It's Psilocybin but I got it from a song that WMP mistagged without teh y. I understand, I just find it more original. I don't mean he jizzes himself, I mean he screws his words over and ends up contradicting himself.

[juggernaut17]

Clinton was offered Osama but he said no. You can't get much more at fault than that.

[Titanic]

Clinton was offered Osama but he said no. You can't get much more at fault than that.

When and where, with sources proving it, cus that bs.

Feiterman, Clinton didn have 8 years. He had from the Embassy bombings and the attack against the USS Cole, which is 2 years from the Embassy to the election, and a matter of months from Cole to the elections. He did alot in that time. He bombed the Al-Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and Sudan with missiles, he sent CIA operative to specifically assassinate Bin Laden, and he came the closest to killing Bin Laden of anyone since. Also, consider he had to build up a whole unit and strategy in that time, as well as implmenting it, which takes up quite a bit of time, especially when you only have 2 years. Bush had another 9 months to search for him, but he reduced the funding and importance of finding him, even though during Bush presidency confirmed reports came in of attacks by airplanes against the US on US soil, which never came in during Clinton time.

Also, the head of the CIA is not directly chosen by the president, so the president cannot just sack and replace him. Also, the problem of coordination is just just at the directors level, its is throughout both and all American intelligence organisations. The CIA, FBI, NCIS, DoD, and all other federal agencies and organisations all prefer too boost their own ego and status rather then cooperate to tackle the common problems. That the president cannot sort out, that is a more national and social problem. Compare that with the UK however, where MI5, MI6, Home Office, SOCA and others all work together to tackle terrorism and other major crimes, and the USA should really learn something.

The 9/11 Commision specifically told these agencies to start cooperating or another attack were leak through and once again expose USA's weakness. So far, I think it was something like 6/43 of the reccomendations are actually being taken into consideration and things happening to implement them.

[ClessAlvein]

The Islamic extremists who are the enemy cannot be reasoned with and will stop at nothing to destroy us.
The only thing they understand is force.

Funny how the same inability to reason can also be ascribed to many of the same fundamentalist Christian movements, such as the one described here. "Extremists" are a class of people that exist in every large society. The western world is no exception. No country, however, has attempted to invade the United States on the premise of weeding out Ku Klux Klan members, on the notion of the United States is illegally harbouring these same fundamentalist terrorists that the "free world" so viciously abhors in the middle east. Why? Simply because the United States is not represented by these extremists, just as the entire middle east, or the country of Iraq, is not being represented by suicide bombers. Yet the war hawks continue to propagate this misconception that the middle east is a swarming field full of AK-47-wielding middle-aged men who have nothing better to do than to plot the destruction of the United States. "They cannot be reasoned with," they say, and "they only understand force and murder." Well, let him who is without sin cast the first stone, and cast the stone to kill ten innocents for every "terrorist" they get.

[Iz Man]

So what do you propose then to combat those who wish to bring down the free world and submit all to Islamic fundamentalism?

Talk? Negotiate? Do nothing I suppose...they'll just leave us alone if we leave them alone.

Good luck.

[ritz627]

Well first off, I'm 17, but thats beyond the point.

Actually, you being 17 is quite a real point.
Wait 'till you start paying for a mortgage, kids in school, blah blah blah.
And TAXES.......Real taxes, not the ol' 1040EZ form.

You'll find Churchill was spot on.

Unfortunately the world is not all "I'm ok, you're ok, group hug, kumbaya".

It's nice to believe that when you're young. It's just plain not the case.
There are VERY evil twisted people out there that want to kill you, ritz, just because you don't subscribe to their ideologies. These people must be met with obliterating force on their territory so we don't have to fight them on ours.

1.) Enough churchill quotes

2.)Although i don't pay many taxes, (i do have a job), taxes aren't the reason I'm against the Iraqi war. Anywau, Democrats aren't just "tax and spend", there are many more beliefs that seperate us from other parties. If taxes are your reason for voting for Bush, you have to re-think things a little.

3.) Do I sound like an "I'm ok, your ok, group hug" kind of a guy? Saying that is just stereotyping the entire teenage population. Keep in mind, i'll be voting next election.

4.)I also see your bringing scare tactics into this. And I forgot, whats it called when you try to scare people into believing what you want them to believe?....oh yea! terrorism! Not to mention, you are again stereotyping the countries that we are invading by saying that they all want to kill us.

But now I'm confused. I thought the invation of Iraq was met with much joy and happiness by the Iraqi people, but now that we're in the war, they all want to kill us, so as a result, republicans say we should continue invading them and killing them in order to prove that we're really not that bad, and in the process destroying them all? Don't you think that doing this would just create more anti-american sentiment as well as people? Call me crazy, but I'm just not understanding the whole republican stance. And then on top of all this, you are calling the media liberal b/c it shows all the images of the Iraq war and the death count and on and on (isn't that thier job?), but now you are telling me that yea, be afraid, be very afraid, but damn it to hell, don't listen to that "liberal media". Its just too darn confusing.

5.) And yea, there are plently of people that want to destroy us, but the one that has the WMD is in North Korea, the US Army missed by a couple thousand miles (give or take). Iran and Iraq don't even have planes that can reach America. But don't get me wrong, diplomacy should be attempted before war (something that we can learn from the disaster of a war in Iraq) in North Korea, and god I hope there won't be one.

6.) Terrorism will always exist, you can't just kill all the terrorists, it doesnt work that way. The best way to fight them is through security in your own country, which hasn't excelled, but hasnt been horrible, I must say. There is, without a doubt, major room for improvment in that area though.

[ritz627]

So what do you propose then to combat those who wish to bring down the free world and submit all to Islamic fundamentalism?

Talk? Negotiate? Do nothing I suppose...they'll just leave us alone if we leave them alone.

Good luck.

If by those who wish to bring down the free world and submit to all Islamic fundamentalism you mean terrorists

See number 6

Keep in mind, fundamentalists are a small radical minority of the Muslim religion.

[ClessAlvein]

So what do you propose then to combat those who wish to bring down the free world and submit all to Islamic fundamentalism?

Only the same thing we do to stop Christian fundamentalism from taking down the free world.

[Iz Man]

Only the same thing we do to stop Christian fundamentalism from taking down the free world.

Oh that's right, I forgot about all those suicide bombing Christians.

Of course the Islamic extremists are a minority (in terms of population). Unfortunately, this minority is in control of the majority of regimes in the middle east. Iran & Syria in particular.

Maybe Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is just a poor misunderstood good soul when he says he wants to "wipe Israel off the face of the map".

Go ahead, keep feeding the crocodile and hope he eats you last.

yum yum yum

[ClessAlvein]

Oh that's right, I forgot about all those suicide bombing Christians.

There are none. You did, however, forget about all those Christians who advocated and carried out the extermination of African-Americans because they were "inferior" not too long back in American history, or the hate propaganda constructed against the Japanese, followed by the Russians and the Cubans and the Chinese, followed by the Vietnamese. Suicide bombing isn't the only way in which violence is carried out by extremists.

Of course the Islamic extremists are a minority (in terms of population). Unfortunately, this minority is in control of the majority of regimes in the middle east. Iran & Syria in particular.

Maybe Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is just a poor misunderstood good soul when he says he wants to "wipe Israel off the face of the map".

I agree that Ahmadinejad should not have said what he said. He is, however, losing favour in the Arab world, and come next election, it is likely that a more moderate leader of Iran will rise to power.

Maybe President Bush is just a poor misunderstood good soul when he said that there was conclusive evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, a country lead by a man whom the United States had put into power in the first place.

Leaders make mistakes, and so far Ahmadinejad has not carried out his idea, which puts him one step ahead of Bush. On what basis do you say that a minority extremist group pervades the government of Iran any more than the minority extremist group adhering to neoconservatism is leading the United States?

Go ahead, keep feeding the crocodile and hope he eats you last.

This is the kind of attitude that creates the "crocodile" in the first place. What makes you think that more violence and stereotyping an entire of region of people into some kind of grotesque, violent monster will help matters more than diplomacy and an attempt at understanding? At least the latter will not cost trillions and go against the advice of the founding fathers of the United States.