Study Highlights Plight of Europeans

[General_Tao]

I would guess that the baby isn't included. As to the rest, that's why income figures are often quoted in terms of households, where all of this is lumped in. The old lady makes her own household, or is part of a great er one if she`s dependent.

But what's important for the purpose of discussion here is that the methodology is the same across OECD countries, so you have a valid platform for comparing across countries, ie difference in median income between the US and say, Germany.

[Timminz]

But what's important for the purpose of discussion here is that the methodology is the same across OECD countries, so you have a valid platform for comparing across countries, ie difference in median income between the US and say, Germany.

Unless, of course, the demographics are hugely different between the countries.

[thegreekdog]

I would guess that the baby isn't included. As to the rest, that's why income figures are often quoted in terms of households, where all of this is lumped in. The old lady makes her own household, or is part of a great er one if she`s dependent.

But what's important for the purpose of discussion here is that the methodology is the same across OECD countries, so you have a valid platform for comparing across countries, ie difference in median income between the US and say, Germany.

Okay, thanks.

My concern is less with comparing the US to Germany and more with wondering whether $25K is a valid number for the United States (and by extension whether $25K is really a "bad" number).

[BigBallinStalin]

I would guess that the baby isn't included. As to the rest, that's why income figures are often quoted in terms of households, where all of this is lumped in. The old lady makes her own household, or is part of a great er one if she`s dependent.

But what's important for the purpose of discussion here is that the methodology is the same across OECD countries, so you have a valid platform for comparing across countries, ie difference in median income between the US and say, Germany.

Okay, thanks.

My concern is less with comparing the US to Germany and more with wondering whether $25K is a valid number for the United States (and by extension whether $25K is really a "bad" number).

Isn't it less meaningful to use individuals to determine a median income?

A family can share costs; whereas, a single guy renting an apartment pays all of that himself.

[thegreekdog]

I would guess that the baby isn't included. As to the rest, that's why income figures are often quoted in terms of households, where all of this is lumped in. The old lady makes her own household, or is part of a great er one if she`s dependent.

But what's important for the purpose of discussion here is that the methodology is the same across OECD countries, so you have a valid platform for comparing across countries, ie difference in median income between the US and say, Germany.

Okay, thanks.

My concern is less with comparing the US to Germany and more with wondering whether $25K is a valid number for the United States (and by extension whether $25K is really a "bad" number).

Isn't it less meaningful to use individuals to determine a median income?

A family can share costs; whereas, a single guy renting an apartment pays all of that himself.

A family with one worker cannot share costs, which would be a problem if we used family median income (instead of single median income). However, family is better than individual (we then eliminate the teenager and the baby from the equation).

[saxitoxin]

Ginis are extremely relevant when you compare the indices of two countries with fairly similar GDP per capita, like comparing the US to Sweden and Norway. We`re not talking about Mongolia or Pakistan here...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you initiated your participation in the thread by noting the Gini coefficient showed the US was trending with Brazil and Mexico.

Similarly, the UK and Portugal are trending with Mongolia and Pakistan.

Again, all that the Gini establishes is that everyone is equally poor in Portugal. This doesn't dispute the premise that Europe and Sub-Saharan Africa are very impoverished places.

...because in the US the top 20% own 85% of the total national income.

Again, this is shotgunning chaffe into the air. Income inequality does not equal poverty. There is a high-level of income equality in Mongolia. There is a low-level of income equality in the United States.

I understand waving the flag of income equality is the last bastion of those trying to romanticize European poverty as traditional and the continental way, but that doesn't help a poor chimney sweep from Manchester who is having to get by on porridge and yank his own rotted teeth out.

To further illustrate my point, while the US' GDP per capita is $46k, the median income is actually only $25k...huge difference.

Incorrect once again.

The gold standard of wealth calculation, the OECD, places the five highest nations by median income at:

1 Luxembourg 34,407
2 United States 31,111
3 Norway 31,011
4 Iceland 28,166
5 Australia 26,915

(http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888932381684)

As noted in the original article, Luxembourg and Norway are exceptions to the poverty of Europe.

also you can't count southern Europe -- that's all quaint poverty

also you can't count this because of XYZ

also you'll need to exempt that because of ABC

We're not here to pound our chests in nationalist aplomb; we're here to identify routes of social justice Europe can actuate to solve the horrific poverty there. As an expatriate I am supremely distressed at the desperately poor conditions of the continent and am not interested in trying to find ways to explain why it's actually a good thing because everyone is equally poor and the cost of baguettes in Lyon is half-off on Thursdays.

[saxitoxin]

I would guess that the baby isn't included. As to the rest, that's why income figures are often quoted in terms of households, where all of this is lumped in. The old lady makes her own household, or is part of a great er one if she`s dependent.

But what's important for the purpose of discussion here is that the methodology is the same across OECD countries, so you have a valid platform for comparing across countries, ie difference in median income between the US and say, Germany.

Okay, thanks.

My concern is less with comparing the US to Germany and more with wondering whether $25K is a valid number for the United States (and by extension whether $25K is really a "bad" number).

Don't worry it is not a valid number. The five highest nations by median income according to the OECD are:

1 Luxembourg 34,407
2 United States 31,111
3 Norway 31,011
4 Iceland 28,166
5 Australia 26,915

(http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888932381684)

General Tao misread his own link; the figures above are the OECD's raw data. However, I will agree that General Tao's statement "the methodology is the same across OECD countries, so you have a valid platform for comparing across countries" is true.

Hence, when applied with the correctly read figures, General Tao agrees with the validity of the OP; that is, outside of Norway and Luxembourg, Europe exists in a state of desperate poverty and the OECD is a further way to validly compare this phenomenon.

[saxitoxin]

The last 2 pages of this thread - and the misquote of OECD data - are an example of why I'm exacting in asking Player to provide links to claims made in The Club. Twelve messages of, ultimately pointless, discussion could have been spared by clicking on Tao's link and noting he read the incorrect line.

In Red-1, Red-2 and Blue-1, Blue-2 personalities you often find such a single-minded determination to cause that the meaning of patently clear facts are often reversed during the cognitive processing stage between initial absorption and subsequent communication. This is why links to original sources are needed, so we don't spend 3 pages discussing fictions resulting from innocent cognitive errors.

Anywho, now that that distraction has been succinctly dismissed - back to the topic: How can the developed world aid Europe in overcoming rampant poverty? Looking for specific ideas, gang.

[BigBallinStalin]

Reduce taxation, increase their citizen's real incomes, and enable them to purchase goods, which they actually demand.

As long as public goods are inefficiently provided, a significant portion of the money extorted from citizens will be wasted. This waste is likely to be responsible for a significant portion of the "well-being discrepancy" between many of Western Europe's developed countries and the US as reflected in their respective real GDP per capita and median incomes.

"But what about Norway, Luxembourg, and Iceland?"

They're free-riders, in that they don't have to dedicate any money to defense, and they receive significant spillover effects from neighboring countries and from international trade. Also, I'm not exactly sure how they restrict citizenship, but if it's like Sweden, then it's no surprise that they can maintain such statistics. If you restrict most public goods to only the citizens while allowing a poor immigrants, or "second-class citizens," to live and work in the country, then those countries can maintain their extravagant government spending at the expense of these poor immigrants.

[General_Tao]

I'm kind of new here, so I give people the benefit of the doubt but it looks like you're being dishonest in your arguments here saxi...

You do realize that your numbers are from 2007, right? The picture is different today because the Euro was worth only $1.30 at the beginning of 2007, and because the US has since experienced its worst recession in decades, while half of Europe is more or less unscathed (Germany, Scandinavia, Holland, France,...) To give you an idea about how off your figures are, Switzerland`s current average income per capita (not GDP) is now in the $40ks, one third higher than the US'. The US$ was worth 1.25 Swiss Francs back in 2007, now it' only worth 0.81 centimes...

You talk about poverty in Lyon, yet the poverty rate in the US yet France's poverty rate (6%) is nearly half the US' (12%)... Do you also realize that the US has one of the lowest life expectancies in the OECD? It would rank near the bottom in the EU. You`re in fact much closer to sub-saharan Africa in parts of Michigan or Mississippi than anywhere in Europe, where at least their relatively smaller poor population has free access to quality higher education and healthcare.

[john9blue]

In addition, your story covers a very small section of his life, but then you declare that the French waiter is enjoying his life. Honestly, you can't reasonably make that assumption because you extremely little about that man's life.

The same is seen with your other stories. You're covering only the good parts of the story for the European, and to counter ways in the US, you only insert the undesirable parts for the American. It's a biased account, but it's a lovely picture. I'm not saying that you are a bad person for doing this. My main point is that you should be aware of how you're erroneously portraying reality. Your stories portray a reality perceived through fictional accounts, or at the very least, very incomplete stories.

Ah, oui, monsieur! C'est la vie!

<takes a drag from a cigarette>

fixed! honh honh!

[General_Tao]

BBS, Norway and other European countries are not "freeriders". Their people are smart enough to know that there is no need to spend the equivalent of one third of government revenue on the military to defend themselves against some people living in caves in Afghanistan. Put differently, the military-industrial complex in Europe is not as big or as good at brainwashing and scaring its citizens.

[saxitoxin]

You do realize that your numbers are from 2007, right?

You do realize your numbers are from 2004, right?

This comes from an income study done by Emmanuel Saez and Thomas Picketty, with 2004 being the latest data year.
http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2007/02/01/ ... h-o-meter/

------------

Put differently, the military-industrial complex in Europe is not as big or as good at brainwashing and scaring its citizens.

There's no doubt the citizens of North America are brainwashed, however, we've been over and established - in numerous other threads already - the fiction of independence in the Yankee Empire's EU puppet states is just as astonishing. There is nothing redeeming about capitalist white culture. But the dullish sycophancy of Europe is not somehow less indictable. It's a continent of recently brutal dictatorships (e.g. Spain, Finland, Portugal, Greece), endemic and widespread racism and dullard people who have fooled themselves into thinking the supremely ridiculous, up-in-flames EU car wreck is something other than a U.S. Trojan Horse as François Mitterand correctly predicted it would become (before the syphilis got to him).

[General_Tao]

Follow the conversation here saxi, the issue here is poverty as it relates to military spending. Regardless of how brainwashed Europeans are, they're not going to be convinced of spending 10% of their GDP on the military. The US on the other hand has been feeling the adverse economic impact of spending more on the military than the rest of the world combined.

As to the data, I used mine to illustrate that there was a huge income disparity in the US and that the gap between the median income and the GDP per capita is huge. US GDP/cap in 2004 was $38k (http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=us&v=67), whereas the median income was only $25k. That's a difference of 50%! That ratio has not changed much recently. If anything, the income inequalities in the US have grown since, as illustrated by the evolution of the Gini curve.

This huge difference between the median and average is due to the fact that the latter figure is greatly skewed by the huge incomes in the top brackets (the top 20% earning 85% of the income!). You don`t have the same level of inequality in Europe (this is what the Gini tells you). This is a crucial fact if you want a real picture of income levels of average Europeans, the raw GDP/capita numbers give you a false picture of the difference between average americans and average europeans and they hide the fact that the poorer europeans are probably better off.

You on the other hand used your data set to compare US income levels to Europe's, but those numbers are now outdated as those two data sets have been moving in different directions due to the large changes in currency and economic growth.

[saxitoxin]

Follow the conversation here saxi, the issue here is poverty as it relates to military spending. Regardless of how brainwashed Europeans are, they're not going to be convinced of spending 10% of their GDP on the military. The US on the other hand has been feeling the adverse economic impact of spending more on the military than the rest of the world combined.

As to the data, I used mine to illustrate that there was a huge income disparity in the US and that the gap between the median income and the GDP per capita is huge. US GDP/cap in 2004 was $38k (http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=us&v=67), whereas the median income was only $25k. That's a difference of 50%! That ratio has not changed much recently. If anything, the income inequalities in the US have grown since, as illustrated by the evolution of the Gini curve.

This huge difference between the median and average is due to the fact that the latter figure is greatly skewed by the huge incomes in the top brackets (the top 20% earning 85% of the income!). You don`t have the same level of inequality in Europe (this is what the Gini tells you). This is a crucial fact if you want a real picture of income levels of average Europeans, the raw GDP/capita numbers give you a false picture of the difference between average americans and average europeans and they hide the fact that the poorer europeans are probably better off.

You on the other hand used your data set to compare US income levels to Europe's, but those numbers are now outdated as those two data sets have been moving in different directions due to the large changes in currency and economic growth.

I didn't have time to read your entire speech as I suspect it's more chaffe being wildly fired into the air; attempts to romanticize the poverty of Europe.

Intermezzo: Saxi Opines on the Capitalist and Social-Democratic Tendency of Romanticizing European Poverty to Frame it as an Acceptable Type of Impoverishment
This concept of romanticizing the horrific poverty of Europe as this quaint little existence where people are all satisfied with their simple, modest little lives in tiny row houses filled with cheap but durable taupe-coloured furniture and happily enjoying their simple meals of day-old bread, boxed wine and yogurt, occasionally smiling at the state-issued cheque they receive in the mail to support their barebones subsistence, is a Hollywood fiction that has evolved into one of the greatest impediments to progress in bringing Europe on-par with the developed world.

This is really, really simple. I understand you feel embarrassed by the error you previously made in reading your own link, but let's just stick to your initial gauge of measure. You said:

But what's important for the purpose of discussion here is that the methodology is the same across OECD countries, so you have a valid platform for comparing across countries,

And here's the OECD data on median income for the most recent year available:

- United States $31,111
- Australia - $26,915
- Japan - $19,432
- ROK - $19,179
- European Union - $16,790
- Israel - $14,055
- Chile - $7,851

(http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888932381684)

You believe OECD median income is an accurate measure of the one question of this thread. I agree. The data shows Europe is poor. The door is closed. If you'd like to discuss milk subsidies in the UK, penis size in Spain, how well the roads are paved in Denmark, etc., you should feel free to start a thread on those topics. In this thread we're trying to figure out how the world can advance social justice and give Europe a helping hand up.

[Symmetry]

In this thread we're trying to figure out how the world can advance social justice and give Europe a helping hand up.

There's a fair bit of resistance from within the EU to that kind of US interference. The EU-nuchs kind of argue that they tend to get shafted when it comes to these transactions.

The Eunuchs, essentially, don't have the balls to ask for yank assistance. I think the US is doing a fair bit to massage the world economy, but I don't see this having a happy ending unless Europe is willing to contribute a bit more. You'd think things would be hard enough in the EU for them to stop acting like asses and ask for the US to reach around the ass-holes in the way and offer a bit of a helping hand.

I'm sure that some of the discomfort, part of which is surely a kind of phobia about the discomfort felt in dealing with the US, would be helped if the US was a bit more slick in how it approached the EU.

[saxitoxin]

In this thread we're trying to figure out how the world can advance social justice and give Europe a helping hand up.

There's a fair bit of resistance from within the EU to that kind of US interference. The EU-nuchs kind of argue that they tend to get shafted when it comes to these transactions.

The Eunuchs, essentially, don't have the balls to ask for yank assistance. I think the US is doing a fair bit to massage the world economy, but I don't see this having a happy ending unless Europe is willing to pay a bit more. You'd think things would be hard enough in the EU for them to stop acting like asses and ask for the US to reach around the obstacles and offer a bit of a helping hand.

I'm sure that some of the discomfort, part of which is surely a kind of phobia about the discomfort felt in dealing with the US, would be helped if the US was a bit more slick in how it approached the EU.

Differentiate the EU - which has been a US puppet since the European Commission was flooded with votes of US client states (in what Mitterand described as the "American Trojan Horse operation") like Poland, Ceska, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia, etc. (recall the US was the biggest backer of their ascension, just like it is pressuring Turkey be allowed to join now) - from Europeans and I have no part with which to disagree with you.

US attempts to massage the world economy include the creation and expansion of the EU and are having a horrific impact on everyone while the US maintains relative wealth and stability. The only way Europe will escape their cycle of poverty - a poverty that is imposed from North America - is to make some attempt at unifying in a legitimate manner, not the bumbling front group reeling from one crisis to the next called the EU. They had many chances from the 1940s to 1980s to do so and rejected all of them, bought-off by buying-into the romantic vision of their own poverty and the fiction of their independence. In that sense they've sealed their own fate and I have little sympathy for them now.

[General_Tao]

Actually, there has been plenty of US aid in Europe, directed towards former eastern block countries like Poland, the CR or Bulgaria, who do need this help. Those are the countries that depress EU averages. If the US absorbed Mexico their numbers would be a whole lot lower too.

But the premise of western Europeans from the original EU block needing economic assistance from the US is beyond retarded (which means only something that someone like Saxi could believe). Germany exports more goods and services than the US, a country four times its size. That`s a lot of manufacturing jobs there.

I didn't have time to read your entire speech

You don't have time to read 2 or 3 short paragraphs, but have the time to go on a superlong irrational fancy HTML rant. It took me a while to figure out you were a bit out there...

[Symmetry]

In this thread we're trying to figure out how the world can advance social justice and give Europe a helping hand up.

There's a fair bit of resistance from within the EU to that kind of US interference. The EU-nuchs kind of argue that they tend to get shafted when it comes to these transactions.

The Eunuchs, essentially, don't have the balls to ask for yank assistance. I think the US is doing a fair bit to massage the world economy, but I don't see this having a happy ending unless Europe is willing to pay a bit more. You'd think things would be hard enough in the EU for them to stop acting like asses and ask for the US to reach around the obstacles and offer a bit of a helping hand.

I'm sure that some of the discomfort, part of which is surely a kind of phobia about the discomfort felt in dealing with the US, would be helped if the US was a bit more slick in how it approached the EU.

Differentiate the EU - which has been a US puppet since the European Commission was flooded with votes of US client states (in what Mitterand described as the "American Trojan Horse operation") like Poland, Ceska, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. (recall the US was the biggest backer of their ascension, just like it is pressuring Turkey be allowed to join now) - from Europeans and I have no part with which to disagree with you.

US attempts to massage the world economy include the creation and expansion of the EU and are having a horrific impact on everyone while the US maintains relative wealth and stability. The only way Europe will escape their cycle of poverty - a poverty that is imposed from North America - is to make some attempt at unifying in a legitimate manner, not the hilarious front group called the EU. They had many chances from the 1940s to 1980s to do so and rejected all of them, bought-off by buying-into the romantic vision of their own poverty and the fiction of their independence. In that sense they've sealed their own fate and I have little sympathy for them now.

I think the EU would like to see a bit more romance when it all comes down to the actual business. Instead, we end up with Santorum and all that shit. He basically argues that Europe is dying, and has no sympathy, yet he is the direct product of this whole thing.

People look at things like that and feel disgusted, perhaps a little irrationally.

[saxitoxin]

Actually, there has been plenty of US aid in Europe, directed towards former eastern block countries like Poland, the CR or Bulgaria, who do need this help. Those are the countries that depress EU averages.

1. "If we just stopped calculating Alabama and Arkansas in the US averages, they'd be even higher! If we just stopped calculating the African-American community higher still! Those are depressing US averages!" Come on. Enough with the excuses, back-peddling, exceptions and "but, but, what ifs ..." Europe is dirt poor.

2. U.S. aid was in the form of NED and IRI buy-offs to politicians in those countries that have assured they vote as Washington dictates in the European Commission.

Germany exports more goods and services than the US, a country four times its size. That`s a lot of manufacturing jobs there.

The highest stage of economic development sees countries as consumers, not servile producers. I have no doubt that India, Mexico, Europe and China are flush with factory jobs and exporting vast quantities of products produced for foreign potentates that their citizens can't afford. The question of wealth is, for whom are those slaves toiling away on the assembly line? The answer is, again, in the OECD figures.

I think the EU would like to see a bit more romance when it all comes down to the actual business. Instead, we end up with Santorum and all that shit. He basically argues that Europe is dying, and has no sympathy, yet he is the direct product of this whole thing.

People look at things like that and feel disgusted, perhaps a little irrationally.

I agree on all points.

[General_Tao]

Let me make things simple for you saxi:

-Original western Europe block (EC 1980s): not poor at all. Much lower income disparities than in the US, bottom third better off than American counterparts
-Southern Europe and Ireland (first round of expansion): originally pretty poor, got much wealthier, currently experiencing growing pains, with large unemployment
-Eastern bloc EU: quite poor, getting richer, high growth rates


You can't sustain an economy by having a country of consumers, this results in trade/balance deficits that are unsustainable in the long term. As well factory jobs in Germany, northern Italy and elsewhere in W Europe are high-paying, you have many centuries of tradition of craftsmanship with a highly skilled labor force. If you're making $40/hr without a college degree, you are hardly a slave.

[saxitoxin]

Let me make things simple for you saxi:

Let me make it simpler yet -

The five highest nations by median income according to the OECD are:

"the methodology is the same across OECD countries, so you have a valid platform for comparing across countries"

1 Luxembourg 34,407
2 United States 31,111
3 Norway 31,011
4 Iceland 28,166
5 Australia 26,915

(http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888932381684)

You had a good run and made a good effort, kiddo, but now you're just throwing anything against the wall you can get your hands on, hoping something will stick to ideate this Hollywood image you have of European craftsmen cobbling away in family shops, lunching on marzipan squares and spending their weekends climbing the Matterhorn. Run along now as the grown-ups would like to have a chat. There's a good lad.

[General_Tao]

The five highest nations by median income according to the OECD were in 2007:


1 Luxembourg 34,407
2 United States 31,111
3 Norway 31,011
4 Iceland 28,166
5 Australia 26,915

fixed. Those BTW were also PPP-adjusted income figures. I don't think the raw figures with today's exchange rates ($1.41/Eur) give you the same rankings...

You had a good run and made a good effort, kiddo, but now you're just throwing anything against the wall you can get your hands on, hoping something will stick to ideate this Hollywood image you have of European craftsmen cobbling away in family shops, lunching on marzipan squares and spending their weekends climbing the Matterhorn. Run along now as the grown-ups would like to have a chat. There's a good lad.

Showing a bit of frustration with the ad hominem there, no need for that, dude...

I grew up in Europe. How long did you live there? I would guess the usual "if it's tuesday it must be Brussels" tour?

[saxitoxin]

The five highest nations by median income according to the OECD for the last year data was available:


1 Luxembourg 34,407
2 United States 31,111
3 Norway 31,011
4 Iceland 28,166
5 Australia 26,915

fixed. Those BTW were also PPP-adjusted income figures. I don't think the raw figures with today's exchange rates ($1.41/Eur) give you the same rankings...

(fixed again) / most amusingly, this was the data you originally announced you thought was most pertinent and rambled on about for 2 pages as evidence of Europe's great wealth before it was pointed out you'd misread your own link at which point you declared the data was actually irrelevant ... which may go down in history as one of the most hilarious 180s in The Club (P.S. the '07 exchange rate had a 9-cent differential ...)

I grew up in Europe.

I'm very sorry to hear that. Despite our differences, I'm glad you managed to escape.

How long did you live there? I would guess the usual "if it's tuesday it must be Brussels" tour?

From birth until the NATO anschluss of 1990, with the exception of 2 years in Angola. Due to a minor legal misunderstanding I haven't had an opportunity to enter a Schengen Area country since that time, however, my nephew Jan and others tell me it's as much of a shithole as when I left.

However, ironically, you're correct in noting I've only been to Brussels once and only for a day. In that day I found Belgium to be a smaller and slightly less remarkable version of the International House of Pancakes.

[BigBallinStalin]

BBS, Norway and other European countries are not "freeriders". Their people are smart enough to know that there is no need to spend the equivalent of one third of government revenue on the military to defend themselves against some people living in caves in Afghanistan. Put differently, the military-industrial complex in Europe is not as big or as good at brainwashing and scaring its citizens.

You do realize that the national security needs of those countries have already been met by their neighboring countries and the USA? They (and not "other European countries," which I didn't say) freeride from the positive externalities provided by 3rd parties. Excluding an immigrant class, or second-class citizens, from nearly all of the government-provided benefits enables those particular European countries to cheaply proudly goods while paying flat taxes (i.e. sales taxes), thus lowering the prices of goods in general while decreasing the necessity to increase taxes to pay for the second-class citizens. They provide without receiving full benefits.