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Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

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Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:15 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDhcqua3_W8

This guy takes a look at the question not just from one point of time compared to another or in the sense of a gap, but addresses income mobility as well as immigration and young workers and makes some interesting points.

In his mid-April speech on the budget deficit, President Obama echoed conventional wisdom when he cited the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer as a reason to raise taxes on the wealthy in order to reduce the national debt.

Research, published at The Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, from Cornell economist Richard Burkhauser, Joint Committee on Taxation economist Jeff Larrimore, and Indiana University economist Kosali Simon, however, suggests that the president’s piece of conventional wisdom isn’t entirely accurate. According to the findings, while the rich have indeed been getting richer, for the last 30 years so too have the poor and middle class.

Burkhauser told The Daily Caller that Obama’s suggestion that the poor are getting poorer understates the amount of income to which Americans actually have access. The president does not take into account, Burkhauser explained, tax unit shifts, government transfers, and other sources of income such as health care benefits.

ā€œThe bottom line is [conventional wisdom] asks what’s been happening to private personal income over time and they are right if you look at that for tax units, things do not look very good for the middle class,ā€ he said. ā€œBut if you take other things into account, the reason the country has not gotten in a civil war is because things are not that bad. In fact everybody has done better.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/26/econo ... z1YMiqHlcR
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby radiojake on Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:18 am

I guess it depends if you are looking domestically or internationally -
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:22 am

radiojake wrote:I guess it depends if you are looking domestically or internationally -


Overall, it's still better.


@Phatscotty, who's that guy who conducted the research that answered this question on the decrease in global poverty since the 1960s?
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Baron Von PWN on Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:43 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
radiojake wrote:I guess it depends if you are looking domestically or internationally -


Overall, it's still better.


@Phatscotty, who's that guy who conducted the research that answered this question on the decrease in global poverty since the 1960s?


Wasn't it that Swedish dude with the cool graph?
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:01 pm

The key is that he went back 30 years. The slide did not really begin until the 90's.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby spurgistan on Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:08 pm

a) The chart ends in 2007. What major global event began in 2008 that's been especially hard on the American lower class?
b) I might also argue that 1979-2007 was an atypically sunny time for the American economy. At least, 1979 was pretty much the peak of stagflation prior to the Volcker Miracle, and
b) Even in the chart, it shows gradually decreasing increases in income. While that's not a decrease in absolute terms, its clearly a policy failure that results in relative inequality, which, although the authors might disagree, is not a good thing.
d) That was an interesting chart. Thanks.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:47 pm

Baron Von PWN wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
radiojake wrote:I guess it depends if you are looking domestically or internationally -


Overall, it's still better.


@Phatscotty, who's that guy who conducted the research that answered this question on the decrease in global poverty since the 1960s?


Wasn't it that Swedish dude with the cool graph?


Yeah!

I can't remember his name though...

With his long-term perspective, it really enables people to understand that overall, poverty has decreased--both in the US and internationally.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:23 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
radiojake wrote:I guess it depends if you are looking domestically or internationally -


Overall, it's still better.


@Phatscotty, who's that guy who conducted the research that answered this question on the decrease in global poverty since the 1960s?


Wasn't it that Swedish dude with the cool graph?


Yeah!

I can't remember his name though...

With his long-term perspective, it really enables people to understand that overall, poverty has decreased--both in the US and internationally.


Hans Rosling's 200 Countries, 200 Years, 4 Minutes
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Symmetry on Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:37 pm

Perhaps, and i suggest this as carefully as I can, the problem is not about how much you have, but how happy you are with what you have, and how fair you think that is. How much work you put into the economy as a labourer vs how much you put into the economy as inheriting wealth. Should you really be taxed less on the money you receive because family members died, rather than you worked for it in your own right? Should you be taxed less because you receive it from sources that require no work from yourself, vs those who work?
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:39 pm

Certainly, everyone..poor, wealthy, everyone, is far better off today than 200 years ago by most measures.

At the same time, most of us today are not living as well as we did 20-30 years ago. It is almost certain that the lives of our children's generation will be far worse than that of our parent's.

But the real problem is deeper. For all the benefits we have today.. and yes, they are magnitudes, we are also causing unprecidented destruction. Every landfill, most factories are pollution time bombs. Many chemicals in daily use are also time bombs causing unknown damage to both us and the world around. If we lose our prosperity today, there is no "fallback" to agriculture, etc.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:39 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Certainly, everyone..poor, wealthy, everyone, is far better off today than 200 years ago by most measures.

At the same time, most of us today are not living as well as we did 20-30 years ago. It is almost certain that the lives of our children's generation will be far worse than that of our parent's.

But the real problem is deeper. For all the benefits we have today.. and yes, they are magnitudes, we are also causing unprecidented destruction. Every landfill, most factories are pollution time bombs. Many chemicals in daily use are also time bombs causing unknown damage to both us and the world around. If we lose our prosperity today, there is no "fallback" to agriculture, etc.


Funny you don't realize the next generation will be worse because of the debt we piled on them. Today's new entitlements and extensions are already on the shoulders of our grandchildren's generation.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Symmetry on Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Funny you don't realize the next generation will be worse because of the debt we piled on them. Today's new entitlements and extensions are already on the shoulders of our grandchildren's generation.


Funny you don't apply that to the rich. Low taxes for capital gains- income for being rich. Inheritance tax at a low- income for being related to someone rich.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:01 pm

Symmetry wrote:Perhaps, and i suggest this as carefully as I can, the problem is not about how much you have, but how happy you are with what you have, and how fair you think that is. How much work you put into the economy as a labourer vs how much you put into the economy as inheriting wealth. Should you really be taxed less on the money you receive because family members died, rather than you worked for it in your own right? Should you be taxed less because you receive it from sources that require no work from yourself, vs those who work?


Should they really get to tax money that was already taxed when the person was alive? Also, your point can be made for welfare/unemployment (received from sources that require no work from yourself)

As you can see, fairness and happiness are completely subjective.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Symmetry on Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:06 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Perhaps, and i suggest this as carefully as I can, the problem is not about how much you have, but how happy you are with what you have, and how fair you think that is. How much work you put into the economy as a labourer vs how much you put into the economy as inheriting wealth. Should you really be taxed less on the money you receive because family members died, rather than you worked for it in your own right? Should you be taxed less because you receive it from sources that require no work from yourself, vs those who work?


Should they really get to tax money that was already taxed when the person was alive? Also, your point can be made for welfare/unemployment (received from sources that require no work from yourself)

As you can see, fairness and happiness are completely subjective.


That might well be the most cynical thing I've ever seen from you. Care to elaborate? Or are you really saying that low rates of taxation should be hereditary?
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:08 pm

Symmetry wrote:Perhaps, and i suggest this as carefully as I can, the problem is not about how much you have, but how happy you are with what you have, and how fair you think that is. How much work you put into the economy as a labourer vs how much you put into the economy as inheriting wealth. Should you really be taxed less on the money you receive because family members died, rather than you worked for it in your own right? Should you be taxed less because you receive it from sources that require no work from yourself, vs those who work?


How does one objectively measure "happiness"? And, are those studies (normative included) capable of accurately describing all the individuals of a "society"?

Does living in a family require no work from oneself?

Are you suggesting we put a higher tax on gifts?

Why destroy the incentives for people to save assets for their spouses, children, and grand-children?
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:05 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Funny you don't realize the next generation will be worse because of the debt we piled on them. Today's new entitlements and extensions are already on the shoulders of our grandchildren's generation.


Funny you don't apply that to the rich. Low taxes for capital gains- income for being rich. Inheritance tax at a low- income for being related to someone rich.


Inhertiance - It most certainly does apply to the rich, more so than anyone else in fact. The money that the rich pass on to their children (horrible I know to want to do good for your kids and your family) has already been taxed as it was earned. You are demanding that it be taxed again.

Cap-gains - we encourage investment. I like that, so I would not apply it in a way that discourages investment and innovation.

I don't apply anything to the rich except thanks and appreciate that they pay for almost everything already.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby natty dread on Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:03 am

Phatscotty wrote:has already been taxed as it was earned.


I don't get this argument. All of the money in the world has "already been taxed" numerous times. So what, should we just abolish all taxes?
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Symmetry on Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:54 am

natty_dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:has already been taxed as it was earned.


I don't get this argument. All of the money in the world has "already been taxed" numerous times. So what, should we just abolish all taxes?


Didn't make much sense to me either.

Scotty, please explain. At the moment, your tax arguments look like they're establishing a form of aristocracy. You can be born into money if one of your ancestors did the work, and that money can keep earning more money through investment, charged at a lower tax rate than people who actually work and create things.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:35 am

Symmetry wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:has already been taxed as it was earned.


I don't get this argument. All of the money in the world has "already been taxed" numerous times. So what, should we just abolish all taxes?


Didn't make much sense to me either.

Scotty, please explain. At the moment, your tax arguments look like they're establishing a form of aristocracy. You can be born into money if one of your ancestors did the work, and that money can keep earning more money through investment, charged at a lower tax rate than people who actually work and create things.


Ah, so saving money (i.e. investment) doesn't lead to the creation of wealth and work for others? I guess by your logic mass-consumption should be rewarded while saving should be punished.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby spurgistan on Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:44 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:has already been taxed as it was earned.


I don't get this argument. All of the money in the world has "already been taxed" numerous times. So what, should we just abolish all taxes?


Didn't make much sense to me either.

Scotty, please explain. At the moment, your tax arguments look like they're establishing a form of aristocracy. You can be born into money if one of your ancestors did the work, and that money can keep earning more money through investment, charged at a lower tax rate than people who actually work and create things.


Ah, so saving money (i.e. investment) doesn't lead to the creation of wealth and work for others? I guess by your logic mass-consumption should be rewarded while saving should be punished.


Well, no, that wasn't his logic at all. I'd assume his logic is that we shouldn't reward heirs for the work of their grandparents. And I'm sure you do too, you know about incentives.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Symmetry on Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:50 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:has already been taxed as it was earned.


I don't get this argument. All of the money in the world has "already been taxed" numerous times. So what, should we just abolish all taxes?


Didn't make much sense to me either.

Scotty, please explain. At the moment, your tax arguments look like they're establishing a form of aristocracy. You can be born into money if one of your ancestors did the work, and that money can keep earning more money through investment, charged at a lower tax rate than people who actually work and create things.


Ah, so saving money (i.e. investment) doesn't lead to the creation of wealth and work for others? I guess by your logic mass-consumption should be rewarded while saving should be punished.


Nothing in your post argues against anything in my post. Consider a new post, in which you explain either your point, or the part of my post that you disagree with.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:54 am

natty_dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:has already been taxed as it was earned.


I don't get this argument. All of the money in the world has "already been taxed" numerous times. So what, should we just abolish all taxes?


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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:00 pm

Symmetry wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:has already been taxed as it was earned.


I don't get this argument. All of the money in the world has "already been taxed" numerous times. So what, should we just abolish all taxes?


Didn't make much sense to me either.

Scotty, please explain. At the moment, your tax arguments look like they're establishing a form of aristocracy. You can be born into money if one of your ancestors did the work, and that money can keep earning more money through investment, charged at a lower tax rate than people who actually work and create things.




The money earned has already been taxed through income taxes when it was earned. You and your greedy friends want to tax the taxed money again. Where does that power/right come from? Why do you have more of a say over a person's money than they or their family do? Are you seriously standing here saying that an individuals life-time accomplishments are owned by the state in the end? That an individual has a right to only the crumbs of the fruit of his labor?

I understand I am asking a bunch of American obsessed foreigners who will have no answer, but hey it's still fun

I completely understand why you guys don't understand.

chew on this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1jLbGSngRE&t=0m38s
Last edited by Phatscotty on Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Symmetry on Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:12 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:has already been taxed as it was earned.


I don't get this argument. All of the money in the world has "already been taxed" numerous times. So what, should we just abolish all taxes?


Didn't make much sense to me either.

Scotty, please explain. At the moment, your tax arguments look like they're establishing a form of aristocracy. You can be born into money if one of your ancestors did the work, and that money can keep earning more money through investment, charged at a lower tax rate than people who actually work and create things.


The money earned has already been taxed through income taxes when it was earned. You and your greedy friends want to tax the taxed money again. Where does that power/right come from? Why do you have more of a say over a person's money than they or their family do?

I understand I am asking a bunch of American obsessed foreigners who will have no answer, but hey it's still fun

I completely understand why you guys don't understand.


Scotty, I understand that while you're possibly not racist, you have a double standard when it comes to responding to posters who were born elsewhere.

As always, your premise is incorrect, I have no friends, greedy or otherwise. I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive.

Would my arguments be better if they were more popular instead of more true? Would they be more correct if I sounded, or indeed. were, more American?

Do you understand that the points you argue against are primarily about the person, rather than the argument?
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Re: Are the Poor Getting Poorer?

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:16 pm

There it is! In a conversation about inheritance tax, the racist accusation is floated.

Okay fine, lets try it this way Symm. Under what you propose to want....

In the first year of a persons career, he earns 2 million dollars in one year and then dies. What he has is 2 millions dollars to his name.

Run him through your extraction device with your settings, and let us know how much his child will receive from inheritance.
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