[ACC Round 2] 1st Reg. v. AOD [25-24] of 51pts - Final

[General Brock II]

That's crazy. heh This is tense!

[codierose]

a missed turn in the decider that cant be good

[General Brock II]

a missed turn in the decider that cant be good

Agggh, I tend to concur.

[kennys777]

update the score please...North Passage is ours, score is 22-21 AOD

[Agent 86]

Well whoever wins this deserves the win, thanks for a really well fought war. Everybody wrote us off as no chance and we are very happy that we were able to put up a good fight. Thanks to all in AOD, it was a lot of fun and shows that GG are getting stronger

[Teflon Kris]

Game 9703287 - GG win

Leaves the score 23-22 to GG with 2 games to be completed.

[murphy16]

Kind of bull shit that y'all have one person deadbeat but can take turns for another player that is about to miss in the Poker Club game, what a chicken shit tactic.

[General Brock II]

You believe that we intended for Papaj to miss? HAH! That's kind of funny... Too bad we don't work that way, murphy. Nor do we rant against our opponents once loss is eminent.

[Treslie]

It may not have been the intention but you have to admit Brock...it looks a little underhanded...especially when it has potential to affect the outcome of a game...

[jpcloet]

You believe that we intended for Papaj to miss? HAH! That's kind of funny... Too bad we don't work that way, murphy. Nor do we rant against our opponents once loss is eminent.

I agree there was not intent, but it did affect the game. We'll wait on DJ's final decision based on that game, plus the prior violations that were not enforced to the full degree.

[Teflon Kris]

Violation of FOW rule.

12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans).

If rules are contravened, then the Tournament Organisers may determine that the offending team cannot score any victories from games concerned. If it is concluded that the offending clan have deliberately contravened rules to gain an advantage then the games concernd will be ruled as automatic victories for their opponents.

GG have violated the rule (where applicable to the map) 7 times in team games:

Game 9718975 AOD Won anyway
Game 9734213 GG close to winning
Game 9703281 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703284 - GG won
Game 9703286 - GG won
Game 9703288 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703292 - AOD Won anyway

This effectively means GG lose 4 points, and thereby hands the tie to GG - a sad end but rules are rules.

The first thread also states that clans can come to a mutual agreement about such things, but I cant see a solution as AOD have won the tie-breaker anyway.

This all came about from a discussion about deadbeating - which looks to be unintentional and therefore not a rule voiation in itself.

[General Brock II]

I believe that I have nulled this decision, at this point... DJ was slightly too hasty in posting. He should have conferred with we leaders before making a public statement.

Though I am going to hold him accountable for the following,

This all came about from a discussion about deadbeating - which looks to be unintentional and therefore not a rule voiation in itself.

edit: Treslie, I suppose I can see your viewpoint. However, I'm sure that you've noticed that we've been panicking a little about his absense? He's missed turns in a game v. TNC, and it looks like he'll doom us in the game, there... he's never nominated a sitter. We're actually a bit concerned about him, too... hope he's not had an accident or ended up in the Emergency room.

[alt1978]

I'm not sure that I'm following the conversation here...is aod making the argument that GG is gaining a strategic advantage from missing turns in a no spoils game and is trying to have the results of those games overturned? Or I am I completely off here and not following the jist of this conversation?

[General Brock II]

I'm not sure that I'm following the conversation here...is aod making the argument that GG is gaining a strategic advantage from missing turns in a no spoils game and is trying to have the results of those games overturned? Or I am I completely off here and not following the jist of this conversation?

That pretty much summed it up, alt. Jp is justified to raise a contention that Papaj might have intentionally deadbeated. But everyone agrees that PapaJ didn't intentionally deadbeat... And DJ agreed that no violation of the rules has occurred in this case. So on to the next issue (being the 12 hour rule contention).

[QoH]

Isn't the issue now that you violated the 12 hr fog rules in 7 games?

[kennys777]

I'm not sure that I'm following the conversation here...is aod making the argument that GG is gaining a strategic advantage from missing turns in a no spoils game and is trying to have the results of those games overturned? Or I am I completely off here and not following the jist of this conversation?

You are right in the facts of the conversation.
As for the ruling, well, regardless of intentional or not (which cannot be proved by hearsay regardless if everyone agrees on it to be perceived truth), the rule is:
"In spoils games, if a missed-turn or 'time out' appears to have deliberately occurred to gain an advantage, then the opposing team will be automatically awarded a victory for the game in question. In extreme circumstances, an appeal may be considered. Decisions will be at the discretion of the Tournamanet Organisers."

Now it says "spoils games" and since this game is a "no spoils" game, then it doesn't apply. However, on the Poker map, territory and bonuses are attributed to specific terrs held with no conformity to the map itself, which brings into question an anomaly or extenuating circumstance beyond the original rules.

Since the ruling has been made concerning this my argument is moot...Just clarifying the conversation a bit.

[kennys777]

Violation of FOW rule.

12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans).

If rules are contravened, then the Tournament Organisers may determine that the offending team cannot score any victories from games concerned. If it is concluded that the offending clan have deliberately contravened rules to gain an advantage then the games concernd will be ruled as automatic victories for their opponents.

GG have violated the rule (where applicable to the map) 7 times in team games:

Game 9718975 AOD Won anyway
Game 9734213 GG close to winning
Game 9703281 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703284 - GG won
Game 9703286 - GG won
Game 9703288 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703292 - AOD Won anyway

This effectively means GG lose 4 points, and thereby hands the tie to GG - a sad end but rules are rules.

The first thread also states that clans can come to a mutual agreement about such things, but I cant see a solution as AOD have won the tie-breaker anyway.

This all came about from a discussion about deadbeating - which looks to be unintentional and therefore not a rule voiation in itself.

And to be fair, I violated the FOW rules in Game 9703297 and I promptly corrected the situation by shedding light on it in chat, plus let the clock run out and did not deploy any troops.

[Baby-Bjorn]

Papaj did not intentionally deadbeat. Life happens and people miss turns. Yes it was a Poker Club game [which in my opinion is still a no spoils game], but since he did not intentionally deadbeat, no penalty or award should be given.

This was our first war using the 12 hour rule and there was a lot of confusion about it among our members. Many did not know what is was. When the problem surfaced, I took the lead on this and began informing our members what the rule was and how to apply it. I do not think there were any violations after I informed our members.

The violations in question were either obviated by AOD winning the games anyway [and thus no award or penalty should be given], or honest mistakes. I know the members who violated the rule and they are all honest, straightforward people. The violations were honest mistakes or misunderstanding of the rule. Therefore, no penalty or award should be given.

Violation of FOW rule.

And to be fair, I violated the FOW rules in Game 9703297 and I promptly corrected the situation by shedding light on it in chat, plus let the clock run out and did not deploy any troops.

And in this game, Agent 86 then applied the 12 hour rule to his turn and waited before taking his turn. I think that demonstrates the honesty and integrity that is prevalent in our membership.

[kennys777]

Papaj did not intentionally deadbeat. Life happens and people miss turns. Yes it was a Poker Club game [which in my opinion is still a no spoils game], but since he did not intentionally deadbeat, no penalty or award should be given.

This was our first war using the 12 hour rule and there was a lot of confusion about it among our members. Many did not know what is was. When the problem surfaced, I took the lead on this and began informing our members what the rule was and how to apply it. I do not think there were any violations after I informed our members.

The violations in question were either obviated by AOD winning the games anyway [and thus no award or penalty should be given], or honest mistakes. I know the members who violated the rule and they are all honest, straightforward people. The violations were honest mistakes or misunderstanding of the rule. Therefore, no penalty or award should be given.

Violation of FOW rule.

And to be fair, I violated the FOW rules in Game 9703297 and I promptly corrected the situation by shedding light on it in chat, plus let the clock run out and did not deploy any troops.

And in this game, Agent 86 then applied the 12 hour rule to his turn and waited before taking his turn. I think that demonstrates the honesty and integrity that is prevalent in our membership.

Okay there is a lot of information here to acknowledge...
1st, violations are violations and deserve penalties where they are proven to be, in fact, violations...Saying you didn't know, or sorry doesn't nullify penalties.

2nd, I said Poker Room was "no spoils" which does NOT violate the rules of the tournament.

3rd, "no violations of the 12 hour rule after you informed your members"?...If you notice the games and their start times, there is a considerable amount of time that passed from the first violation through the last violation...

Game 9718975 Game initialized 09/14/2011 Mr. CD starts 2 hours 15 min. after initialized
Game 9734213 Game Initialized 09/14/2011 Mr. CD starts 7 hours after initialized
Game 9703281 Game initialized 09/07/2011 Ianphull starts 11 hours 48 min. after initialized
Game 9703284 Game Initialized 09/08/2011 Agent 86 starts 42 min. after initialized
Game 9703286 Game Initialized 09/12/2011 Mr. CD starts 4 min. 42 sec. after initialized
Game 9703288 Game Initialized 09/12/2011 Vinzzz starts 18 min. after initialized
Game 9703292 Game Initialized 09/12/2011 Glandias starts 8 hours 57 min after initialized

Now are you saying that you could not disseminate the 12 hour fog rule information to your clan between 09/07 and 09/14? If you say that some people do not log in often enough, then tell me how Mr. CD violated the rule 3 times within a 3 day period 09/12-09/14?

4th, Agent 86 didn't have to wait, since the 12 hour rule is for people to take snapshots of the board before turns are taken. Since I opened the game, we had our snapshot, or at least our opportunity to take one, so that is a moot point.

5th, DJ had stated that 4 points were to be subtracted, which referred to the 2 games GG won. Your clan was not penalized for the games AOD won...

[Teflon Kris]

CORRECTION :

The FOW Rule breach is only relevent in this game:

Game 9703284

This means GG lose 1 point, making the score 22-22.

Violation of FOW rule.

12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans).

If rules are contravened, then the Tournament Organisers may determine that the offending team cannot score any victories from games concerned. If it is concluded that the offending clan have deliberately contravened rules to gain an advantage then the games concernd will be ruled as automatic victories for their opponents.

GG have violated the rule (where applicable to the map) 7 times in team games:

Game 9718975 AOD Won anyway
Game 9734213 GG close to winning
Game 9703281 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703284 - GG won
Game 9703286 - GG won
Game 9703288 - AOD Won anyway
Game 9703292 - AOD Won anyway

This effectively means GG lose 4 points, and thereby hands the tie to GG - a sad end but rules are rules.

The first thread also states that clans can come to a mutual agreement about such things, but I cant see a solution as AOD have won the tie-breaker anyway.

This all came about from a discussion about deadbeating - which looks to be unintentional and therefore not a rule voiation in itself.

[codierose]

This was our first war using the 12 hour rule and there was a lot of confusion about it among our members. Many did not know what is was.

is this not the round 2 did you not use the 12 hour fog rule then ??

[Ickyketseddie]

I'm not going to get into details with you guys but if you were going to apply penalties for 12H rule violations that happened at the start of the war why wasn't the score updated or wasn't it dealt with untill now? Surely it should have been dealt with at the time, as with the singles match we posted too late. Ruling was given immidiately (we could not gain a point but AOD could if they won).

Bad form if nothing else to get to the end and then over turn the result.

CORRECTION :

The FOW Rule breach is only relevent in this game:

Game 9703284

This means GG lose 1 point, making the score 22-22.

If this is current does this mean your proposing another tie-breaker, or we still lose because AOD won the origianl tie break?

EDIT: Interestingly in the game you've quoted the initial move was posted anyway as soon as requested by the AOD rep. I thought this is acceptable if the rule is breached? I understand if i'm wrong however.

[jpcloet]

This is part of the problem that the CLA has been working on. There is no standard 12H Courtesy Rule definition. Everytime AOD's been asked/forced to use it, there have been problems of some sort. We were going to let the 12H violations slide until the Poker game essentially corrupted and decided the war which is not fair to either team. An advantage was gained, so I would have preferred the game to be voided. However, DJ indicated he would not do that, so our only avenue to create a fair outcome was to invoke the 12H rule violations.

DJ's ACC thread states a very generic, and has no reference to the current CLA definition which is not approved yet:

12 hour Fog of War courtesy rule applies (unless otherwise agreed by both clans).

Something this generic will be left to interpretations.

[Ickyketseddie]

Ah i understand what your saying about the definition. At least it is currently in discussion in the CLA to prevent further misunderstandings.

Well i guess its best for you Brock and DJ to get together and come to some sort of outcome and let us know what it is? We could all chip in with what 'WE' think is right but realisticly we're all gonna stick up for own own. I hope you guys just understand that we arn't using dirty tactics with missed turns, and we we're just un-experienced/un-disciplined with the 12H fog rule and I hope you guys can sort this with no animosity between our clans.

I'd also like to add that apart from this black cloud that has been brought over the war its been very enjoyable playing with you all. Thanks for some really tough games.

[kennys777]

I'm not going to get into details with you guys but if you were going to apply penalties for 12H rule violations that happened at the start of the war why wasn't the score updated or wasn't it dealt with untill now? Surely it should have been dealt with at the time, as with the singles match we posted too late. Ruling was given immidiately (we could not gain a point but AOD could if they won).

We have been noting it in almost every game it happened in. Oddly enough, mostly games with AgentSmith88, so he was very vocal about it.