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How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

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How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:06 pm

Alright, so I'm still not convinced being gay is not a choice. I have absolutely no problem with gays or them being married. I just really don't think it's innate.

Anyway, let's just say it isn't a choice. That brings up the question...what is?

Pretty much everyone on this site is sickened by pedophiles. But, if being attracted to the same sex is something that a person can't control, why can't being attracted to prepubescent kids be something pedophiles can't control? And, if people concede that pedophilia is in fact something that a pedophile can't control, why is there such a harsh attitude towards these people?

Not only that but is it a racist's fault that they're racist? Or a sexist's fault that they're sexist?

At what point do thoughts of a person become a choice instead of them being born with it?
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:10 pm

When your innate tendencies harm others, they have to be controlled by society at large. We don't give serial killers a free pass just because they were born that way. It's different for gay people because their innate tendency doesn't actually harm others.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby natty dread on Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:21 pm

Children, by definition, cannot offer consent to have sex with adults. They are not considered capable of making such a choice, thus we protect them by age-of-consent laws.

Pedophiles are thus, by definition, having non-consensual sex. There's another word for that: rape.

Ergo: the argument "pedophilia should be accepted if gays are" is equivalent to the argument that rape should be legal.

Also, being a racist or sexist is not comparable as neither is something that is out of your control, unlike your sexual preferences. You can affect your own opinions, you can work on your prejudices and make a conscious effort to educate yourself out of your racism or sexism.

Also, AoG, since you think being gay is a choice, I challenge you to become gay for a week.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:36 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:When your innate tendencies harm others, they have to be controlled by society at large. We don't give serial killers a free pass just because they were born that way. It's different for gay people because their innate tendency doesn't actually harm others.


I figured this, but what kind of a society are we were we treat people like this as poorly as we do?

I don't know, I guess I'm being too much of an idealist, but I think it's ridiculous that we look down upon these people when they have had no choice. Sort of like: "Oh well, you lost the lottery of life. Good luck rotting in jail."

natty_dread wrote:Children, by definition, cannot offer consent to have sex with adults. They are not considered capable of making such a choice, thus we protect them by age-of-consent laws.


That definition is extremely subjective. Like I mentioned in another thread a few months ago, what if a 12 year old boy who has passed puberty consents to having sex with a 30 year old woman and there is absolutely no emotional or physical damage to the boy? What harm has been done?

Pedophiles are thus, by definition, having non-consensual sex. There's another word for that: rape.


Circular. See above.

Ergo: the argument "pedophilia should be accepted if gays are" is equivalent to the argument that rape should be legal.


Still going in circles.

Also, being a racist or sexist is not comparable as neither is something that is out of your control, unlike your sexual preferences. You can affect your own opinions, you can work on your prejudices and make a conscious effort to educate yourself out of your racism or sexism.


You can affect your own opinions? How? I don't think a guy who was born in the south to racist parents has much of a chance to change his own opinions about race...

Also, AoG, since you think being gay is a choice, I challenge you to become gay for a week.


Too late. I'm already gay for Tim Tebow.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:39 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Children, by definition, cannot offer consent to have sex with adults. They are not considered capable of making such a choice, thus we protect them by age-of-consent laws.


That definition is extremely subjective. Like I mentioned in another thread a few months ago, what if a 12 year old boy who has passed puberty consents to having sex with a 30 year old woman and there is absolutely no emotional or physical damage to the boy? What harm has been done?


Playing off this, the age of consent in Spain is 13 (according to Wikipedia) while here in New York it's 17. A bit of a difference.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Lootifer on Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:07 pm

Nature vs Nurture vs Choice.

My answer is:

25/50/25.

And I agree with your sentiment AoG, but a lot of the hate towards pedios and others has evolved from the need to protect our young rather than more moralistic reasons.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:15 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
Pretty much everyone on this site is sickened by pedophiles. But, if being attracted to the same sex is something that a person can't control, why can't being attracted to prepubescent kids be something pedophiles can't control?


They can control it, but it's extremely difficult, and essentially, it's suppressing one's self. Maybe we could go so far as to call it "self-inflicted pain," e.g. cutting oneself. Imagine the pain you would feel if you have consciously remove Tim Tebow from your life. :P No posters, no random internet pics, and every time you thought about him, you'd have to hit yourself to stop it--emotionally or physically.


Army of GOD wrote:And, if people concede that pedophilia is in fact something that a pedophile can't control, why is there such a harsh attitude towards these people?


The dominant culture's view on "child" and "adult" has been warped. People fervently believe that the arbitrarily set age of 18 by the government is actually an adult. OR, most people don't believe that, but instead feel that <14 should be off-limits to people over >20 or so. The former seems reasonable to me.

Army of GOD wrote:Not only that but is it a racist's fault that they're racist? Or a sexist's fault that they're sexist?


One can be socially conditioned to believe something, but if they're open to new information, then they'll have to change their stance on racism since there's no good arguments supporting it. Otherwise, they're being irrational and/or they don't care. At the point when they choose not to be open to new information, I'd say it's the person's fault--and not his surrounding culture's fault.

Army of GOD wrote:At what point do thoughts of a person become a choice instead of them being born with it?


Here's my basic view on gender-identity.

You're born at some point along the spectrum of Male to Female. From that point, social conditioning can shift you slightly--but not all that much from your innate position. From my limited understanding of neuroscience, you're basically hardwired to behave a certain way. However, there's also a disconnect between how one perceives himself and where one actually lies on the gender-identity spectrum. For gender-identity, social conditioning can sway your view of yourself, but it can also enable you to realize your position on that spectrum as well.

So, it's a symbiotic process. From childhood and onward, information comes in which you assimilate and choose to act upon. You project information with your clothes, speech, etc., and react to your environment's responses.

Basically, you're building a bridge from your current self-perceived position of your gender-identity toward your initial, innate position, which may shift slightly. Your environment, your genes, and your decisions guide the construction.

Choice is most crucial though. This explains why some people "come out of the closet" after they've been married for 10 years and have kids. Sometimes, people aren't as self-aware as others. Sometimes, it takes too much effort. Sometimes, they fear their environment's reactions, etc. But, it's your choices guiding your efforts.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:57 pm

Does free will exist? Do people really make choices?
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Lootifer on Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:00 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Does free will exist? Do people really make choices?

I answered 25/50/25; where do you think it is?
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:07 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Does free will exist? Do people really make choices?


I wasn't going to quote you. But I really couldn't help myself.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:17 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Does free will exist? Do people really make choices?


Somewhat, because the individual faces constraints, but some constraints are perceived, so some are subject to modification from the individual.

Yes, people make choices.


In life, you can throw up your hands and say, "my environment controls me! I have exert hardly any influence."

Or, you can say, "Although my environment does influence me, I can still exert influence over it in order to forge my own 'fate.' "

It mainly depends on whether you exhibit an external locus of control, or an internal locus of control.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:19 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:In life, you can throw up your hands and say, "my environment controls me! I have exert hardly any influence."

Or, you can say, "Although my environment does influence me, I can still exert influence over it in order to forge my own 'fate.' "

It mainly depends on whether you exhibit an external locus of control, or an internal locus of control.


But is the decision you make actually the result of true choice? Or is it simply how you were programmed to think? Is it really more than chemical interactions in the brain that our minds don't control?
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby nietzsche on Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:05 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:In life, you can throw up your hands and say, "my environment controls me! I have exert hardly any influence."

Or, you can say, "Although my environment does influence me, I can still exert influence over it in order to forge my own 'fate.' "

It mainly depends on whether you exhibit an external locus of control, or an internal locus of control.


But is the decision you make actually the result of true choice? Or is it simply how you were programmed to think? Is it really more than chemical interactions in the brain that our minds don't control?


You are not outside your body trying to judge if YOU are controlling it or not. You are part of your body, so you can control some aspects of it. Digest it.

You can't escape what you are, including the tiniest atom. As far as you learn how to control and influence certain parts of your body you can change most things in your life. (No you can't grow another pair of boobs).

Free will exists for you. Assuming responsability is necessary for a authentic life. Stop blaming your father for baldness genes.

Since YOU are YOU, there's no point in thinking there's no free will, for you have a part to play in the whole mix of ingredients that make up the soup that a physicist will look upon to say that everything has a prima cause.

When you become an entity outside the whole soup you can say, "hey! there's no free will".

I am a materialistic deterministic, but I adopt free will in the mentioned ways. I'm not influenced by religion or caprice in accepting free will.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Aradhus on Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:12 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Does free will exist?


No.

Metsfanmax wrote:Do people really make choices?


Yes.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:30 pm

Army of GOD wrote:Alright, so I'm still not convinced being gay is not a choice. I have absolutely no problem with gays or them being married. I just really don't think it's innate.

Anyway, let's just say it isn't a choice. That brings up the question...what is?

Pretty much everyone on this site is sickened by pedophiles. But, if being attracted to the same sex is something that a person can't control, why can't being attracted to prepubescent kids be something pedophiles can't control? And, if people concede that pedophilia is in fact something that a pedophile can't control, why is there such a harsh attitude towards these people?

Not only that but is it a racist's fault that they're racist? Or a sexist's fault that they're sexist?

At what point do thoughts of a person become a choice instead of them being born with it?

"Why" only matters when it comes to judgement, mostly "religion" (including atheism). What matters for society is harm. As long as we try to combine those 2 things, there will always be problems.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:39 pm

Army of GOD wrote:Alright, so I'm still not convinced being gay is not a choice. I have absolutely no problem with gays or them being married. I just really don't think it's innate.

Anyway, let's just say it isn't a choice. That brings up the question...what is?

Pretty much everyone on this site is sickened by pedophiles. But, if being attracted to the same sex is something that a person can't control, why can't being attracted to prepubescent kids be something pedophiles can't control? And, if people concede that pedophilia is in fact something that a pedophile can't control, why is there such a harsh attitude towards these people?

Not only that but is it a racist's fault that they're racist? Or a sexist's fault that they're sexist?

At what point do thoughts of a person become a choice instead of them being born with it?


We are becoming a society dominated by our impulses (especially sexually), not to mention there are more and more people everyday who argue that nobody can say what is right and what is wrong, therefore there are less and less consequences.

The harsh attitude comes not from whether or not the pedophile can control what is attractive to them, and 100% from the damage a pedophile does to a young child and the emotional, psychological, and physical scars that last a lifetime, not to mention potentially creating a cycle of future abuse that could last for a few generations.

This is what "If it feels good, do it" looks like.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby john9blue on Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:42 pm

i clicked thinking it would be a free will thread

or maybe a causality thread

but a nature/nurture thread? :P
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:25 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Does free will exist? Do people really make choices?

I answered 25/50/25; where do you think it is?


I used to think it was 33/33/33, but I can't even give ballpark figures anymore.

BBS and nietzsche told us that free will exists but with no reasoning...just that it exists. I guess that works for pragmatic reasons (so we don't dwell on something that we don't have control over or that is trivial compared to real life problems) but I think it'd be impossible to prove it one way or another.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:19 pm

Aradhus wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Does free will exist?


No.

Metsfanmax wrote:Do people really make choices?


Yes.


These answers are incompatible. A lack of existence of free will implies that one does not have the capability of actually making choices; that is, your actions (the ones you perceive as choices) are truly predetermined from the start. What we perceive as choice is simply the result of complex interactions in the brain governed by immutable physical laws of the universe.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Lootifer on Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:24 pm

I think he was being illustrative when he answered the first question.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:28 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Aradhus wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Does free will exist?


No.

Metsfanmax wrote:Do people really make choices?


Yes.


These answers are incompatible. A lack of existence of free will implies that one does not have the capability of actually making choices; that is, your actions (the ones you perceive as choices) are truly predetermined from the start. What we perceive as choice is simply the result of complex interactions in the brain governed by immutable physical laws of the universe.

The real bottom line is that it does not matter, because we act as if we do. In a sense, that belief is fundamental to who we are.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:43 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:In life, you can throw up your hands and say, "my environment controls me! I have exert hardly any influence."

Or, you can say, "Although my environment does influence me, I can still exert influence over it in order to forge my own 'fate.' "

It mainly depends on whether you exhibit an external locus of control, or an internal locus of control.


But is the decision you make actually the result of true choice? Or is it simply how you were programmed to think? Is it really more than chemical interactions in the brain that our minds don't control?


What do you mean by "true choice"? What's a "false" choice?

What do you mean by "programmed to think"? Is someone programming me? Has my brain been altered in such a manner that there's only one path for me?

"Is it really more than chemical interactions in the brain that our minds don't control?"

Yeah. Sometimes, your brain responds automatically to a situation, but most of the time, there's conflict of interests within yourself, and you get to decide how it goes. I derive pleasure from typing on CC because my brain releases serotonin as I type and read, but this doesn't mean that I am a slave to my brain, and I have no "true" choice. I can simply choose to do other things as substitutes for serotonin, or for whatever else. Right after this message, I'm getting up and going back to my paper. (EDIT: LOL, aftering responding to AoG!)

How can you show me that my decisions along a set of opportunities are only chemical interactions beyond my brain's control? I can ask, why do the chemical interactions react that way? What shapes their movement? I'd say the mind. Then again, how do you define the "mind"? For me, it's not something separate from the brain/body.
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:47 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Does free will exist? Do people really make choices?

I answered 25/50/25; where do you think it is?


I used to think it was 33/33/33, but I can't even give ballpark figures anymore.

BBS and nietzsche told us that free will exists but with no reasoning...just that it exists. I guess that works for pragmatic reasons (so we don't dwell on something that we don't have control over or that is trivial compared to real life problems) but I think it'd be impossible to prove it one way or another.


I did? My answer was "somewhat."

The part about bridge-building is relevant:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=157872#p3463332
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It depends on the definition of "free will." There are constraints on our decisions, but I wouldn't say that one's life is a single path with no possible way to diverge from it--hence, my answer: "somewhat."
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby john9blue on Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:11 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Aradhus wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Does free will exist?


No.

Metsfanmax wrote:Do people really make choices?


Yes.


These answers are incompatible. A lack of existence of free will implies that one does not have the capability of actually making choices; that is, your actions (the ones you perceive as choices) are truly predetermined from the start. What we perceive as choice is simply the result of complex interactions in the brain governed by immutable physical laws of the universe.


it's not his fault, he was forced to post that
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Re: How is anything really anyone's 'fault'?

Postby Army of GOD on Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:42 am

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