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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby notyou2 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:18 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:NS is talking about the Federal Government in theory versus the Federal Government in practice. And he's right, but kind of not. After the Civil War was lost by the Southerners, the role of the Federal Government has been assured to be a stronger one. They just haven't gone through the rig-amoral of adding that to the Constitution. Anyway, our government was designed, and intended to change. If we went back to the rules our early nation was governed by then we'd be making a huge mistake. For example, towns that had less than 50 houses wouldn't be required to send their children to school. Maybe that's not a fair example, because I know a lot of Conservatives are against the Department of Education and against education and science in general anyway. Perhaps that's because most Conservatives were never properly educated themselves. . . er, . . what was my point again?

Oh yes,
Our American forefathers were, at the time, arguably the most educated populous in the world. We had public schools in 1635, by 1637 education was no longer optional for those kids in towns with 50 households or more. Partly the reason American's had such strong resentment of the British was the fact that the colony's had created for themselves the most literate population in the British empire. In fact, they were probably the most literate in the world.
George Washington said "There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness." And the Roman slave turned Philosopher, Epictetus, pleaded "We must not believe the many, who say that only free people ought to be educated, but we should rather believe the philosophers who say that only the educated are free."
Today of course, America is populated by 40 million barely literate adults, and when compared with the resto of the modernized world our students repeatedly rank in the bottom for understanding of algebra, chemistry, science, and literacy. Though despite this two-thirds of American students say that they "are good at mathematics." Our media devotes more time to Hollywood "scandals" like Michal Jackson's doctor's trial than to even President Obama's speeches. It's no wonder Pedronicus thinks Americans are f*cked in the head. We are. We have retarded debates like this one because we have dumbed ourselves down so much. And this, Epictetus had alluded to, "only the educated are free." Here we have a good opportunity to help ourselves and save a great deal of capital in the process. And instead, we politicize the issue, we allow politicians on both sides to destroy Socialized medicine's great benefits, we listen without a skeptical ear, and we hide behind the Constitution. These idiots are f*cking things up or the rest of us. We're enslaving ourselves by not properly educating ourselves, or each other.

"American's have no interest in critical or skeptical thinking, and they have no sense of reasoning."



I'm making this my signature.

Well stated Juan.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Lootifer on Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:25 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:NS is talking about the Federal Government in theory versus the Federal Government in practice. And he's right, but kind of not. After the Civil War was lost by the Southerners, the role of the Federal Government has been assured to be a stronger one. They just haven't gone through the rig-amoral of adding that to the Constitution. Anyway, our government was designed, and intended to change. If we went back to the rules our early nation was governed by then we'd be making a huge mistake. For example, towns that had less than 50 houses wouldn't be required to send their children to school. Maybe that's not a fair example, because I know a lot of Conservatives are against the Department of Education and against education and science in general anyway. Perhaps that's because most Conservatives were never properly educated themselves. . . er, . . what was my point again?

Oh yes,
Our American forefathers were, at the time, arguably the most educated populous in the world. We had public schools in 1635, by 1637 education was no longer optional for those kids in towns with 50 households or more. Partly the reason American's had such strong resentment of the British was the fact that the colony's had created for themselves the most literate population in the British empire. In fact, they were probably the most literate in the world.
George Washington said "There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness." And the Roman slave turned Philosopher, Epictetus, pleaded "We must not believe the many, who say that only free people ought to be educated, but we should rather believe the philosophers who say that only the educated are free."
Today of course, America is populated by 40 million barely literate adults, and when compared with the resto of the modernized world our students repeatedly rank in the bottom for understanding of algebra, chemistry, science, and literacy. Though despite this two-thirds of American students say that they "are good at mathematics." Our media devotes more time to Hollywood "scandals" like Michal Jackson's doctor's trial than to even President Obama's speeches. It's no wonder Pedronicus thinks Americans are f*cked in the head. We are. We have retarded debates like this one because we have dumbed ourselves down so much. And this, Epictetus had alluded to, "only the educated are free." Here we have a good opportunity to help ourselves and save a great deal of capital in the process. And instead, we politicize the issue, we allow politicians on both sides to destroy Socialized medicine's great benefits, we listen without a skeptical ear, and we hide behind the Constitution. These idiots are f*cking things up or the rest of us. We're enslaving ourselves by not properly educating ourselves, or each other.

"American's have no interest in critical or skeptical thinking, and they have no sense of reasoning."

=D>
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby pimpdave on Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:52 pm

There's a .gif we often post in the McGill subforum that would be a perfect hilarious counterpoint to Juan_Bottom's awesome post, but I can't share it here.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Nobunaga on Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:30 am

... The argument is not valid. Nowhere in the US Constitution are towns with fewer than fifty households declared exempt from schooling their children. Apples to oranges - a comparison pointed at the useful idiots.

... As to, "Socialized medicine's great benefits"..., is this a reference to bankrupting the nation (further than it has already been bankrupted)? Perhaps it refers to the legions of doctors fleeing the field of medicine? No, perhaps this is a reference to how wonderful the idea of imprisoning citizens who fail to purchase products specified by the Fed? Great stuff, all that.

... I am well-educated (MAGNA cum laude, bitches), yet in contrast to the above, I am becoming less free every day.

...
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:53 am

Nobunaga wrote: ... I am well-educated (MAGNA cum laude, bitches), yet in contrast to the above, I am becoming less free every day.

...

This is the down side to society.

Sure, we were ALL much freer back in the days of the Mountain Men... no rules, no regulations. But.. not sure anyone here would really trade that life for ours today.


Rules are necessary to keep idiots and greedy individuals from taking too much from everyone else. Funny how you all manage to twist that "taking" into a "harm" when average people actually get a reasonable standard of living.. but the very wealthiest have minor limits on their gains of wealth and power.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:51 pm

Are there any like national polls that compare the votes of how many people want universal healthcare vs. those that don't?
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Lootifer on Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:22 pm

Nobunaga wrote:... As to, "Socialized medicine's great benefits"..., is this a reference to bankrupting the nation (further than it has already been bankrupted)? Perhaps it refers to the legions of doctors fleeing the field of medicine? No, perhaps this is a reference to how wonderful the idea of imprisoning citizens who fail to purchase products specified by the Fed? Great stuff, all that.

Can you please explain to me how you are imprisoned? I mean I am all for debating a slimmer government etc. But how does, say, an extra 5c in the $ imprison you ffs? Dramatic much?

... I am well-educated (MAGNA cum laude, bitches), yet in contrast to the above, I am becoming less free every day...

Ahahahahahahahaha, you'd actually gloat on an internet forum about something like a GPA/Honors Class? :roll:
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Nobunaga on Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:42 pm

Army of GOD wrote:Are there any like national polls that compare the votes of how many people want universal healthcare vs. those that don't?


http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... h_care_law
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Nobunaga on Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:54 pm

Lootifer wrote:Can you please explain to me how you are imprisoned? I mean I am all for debating a slimmer government etc. But how does, say, an extra 5c in the $ imprison you ffs? Dramatic much?


... What happens should you not pay your taxes? :roll:

Lootifer wrote:Ahahahahahahahaha, you'd actually gloat on an internet forum about something like a GPA/Honors Class? :roll:


... Top 3% in university. Bet your ass I gloat.

...
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:13 pm

Army of GOD wrote:Are there any like national polls that compare the votes of how many people want universal healthcare vs. those that don't?

Yes. A lot of them before the healthcare bill was passed.

Basically, if you asked about "socialized medicine" everyone said "no", but if you asked about the specifics of the bill, such as no life time limits set by insurance companies, no refusal to cover pre-existing conditions, , etc, etc, etc.... then you got a "sure, yes".

Its language, not substance. "Socialized" anything has become a bogeyman, without folks even really thinking about what it might actually mean.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:19 pm

Nobunaga wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Can you please explain to me how you are imprisoned? I mean I am all for debating a slimmer government etc. But how does, say, an extra 5c in the $ imprison you ffs? Dramatic much?


... What happens should you not pay your taxes? :roll:

No police, no fire protection (even where protection is volunteer.. because equipment, supplies do cost money), no road maintenance, no schools for any but those rich enough to pay high tuition, no environmental protection, no enforcement of banking rules, no enforcement of safety standards for food or medicine, equipment.. anything. And, yeah.. no government to deal with foreign countries, no military,

enough for you?

You keep harping on some illusionary time when you could live as you do without paying for it, or paying only what you happen to think you ought to pay. Its a child's game. Time to grow up and recognize that you have to pay for what you use .. and chances are you don't even pay fully for that NOW.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Lootifer on Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:10 pm

Sorry Nobunga, I misread your post. Used to reading Scotty/NS dialog.

Also it's not the gloating about your intelligence I have an issue with (I put my honors degree on my resume too), it's the place where you are gloating, and the manner in which you do it.

Why dont you tell us about how big your dick is, how fast your car is, how hot your partner is and how much you bench press while you're at it? :roll:
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:19 pm

Nobunaga wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:Are there any like national polls that compare the votes of how many people want universal healthcare vs. those that don't?


http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... h_care_law


That's interesting. I thought it'd be different.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Lootifer on Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:23 pm

Its because the lobbiests labelled it as socialised healthcare (as per this thread for example) and, well, we all know how much US citizens like socialism...
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:42 pm

Lootifer wrote:Its because the lobbiests labelled it as socialised healthcare (as per this thread for example) and, well, we all know how much US citizens like socialism...


I'm pretty sure if you want government-provided healthcare, the fact that it's called "socialized" healthcare is pretty trivial.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Lootifer on Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:06 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Its because the lobbiests labelled it as socialised healthcare (as per this thread for example) and, well, we all know how much US citizens like socialism...


I'm pretty sure if you want government-provided healthcare, the fact that it's called "socialized" healthcare is pretty trivial.

Hey ill give you guys the benfit of the doubt and assume you're correct. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was I who is correct.

My reasoning is the existance of the people NS/PS support and the propaganda they produce.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:09 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Its because the lobbiests labelled it as socialised healthcare (as per this thread for example) and, well, we all know how much US citizens like socialism...


I'm pretty sure if you want government-provided healthcare, the fact that it's called "socialized" healthcare is pretty trivial.

Hey ill give you guys the benfit of the doubt and assume you're correct. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was I who is correct.

My reasoning is the existance of the people NS/PS support and the propaganda they produce.


I guess.

I just expected the poll to be the other way around because I figured "the mob" would overwhelmingly vote for healthcare.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Lootifer on Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:15 pm

"The mob" is often uneducated and thus most susceptibleto propaganda and hereditarily and socially instilled values.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:20 pm

Lootifer wrote:"The mob" is often uneducated and thus most susceptibleto propaganda and hereditarily and socially instilled values.


They are the most susceptible to propaganda but I would like to believe that they know what socialism is.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby john9blue on Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:23 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Its because the lobbiests labelled it as socialised healthcare (as per this thread for example) and, well, we all know how much US citizens like socialism...


I'm pretty sure if you want government-provided healthcare, the fact that it's called "socialized" healthcare is pretty trivial.

Hey ill give you guys the benfit of the doubt and assume you're correct. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was I who is correct.

My reasoning is the existance of the people NS/PS support and the propaganda they produce.


I guess.

I just expected the poll to be the other way around because I figured "the mob" would overwhelmingly vote for healthcare.


both sides claim to represent the will of the american people. polls are a great way to see who is truthful and who is full of shit.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:30 pm

The conservatives might not be full of shit, but Gingrich is full of something.

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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Night Strike on Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:49 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:Are there any like national polls that compare the votes of how many people want universal healthcare vs. those that don't?

Yes. A lot of them before the healthcare bill was passed.

Basically, if you asked about "socialized medicine" everyone said "no", but if you asked about the specifics of the bill, such as no life time limits set by insurance companies, no refusal to cover pre-existing conditions, , etc, etc, etc.... then you got a "sure, yes".

Its language, not substance. "Socialized" anything has become a bogeyman, without folks even really thinking about what it might actually mean.


It's not the government's job to do any of those things. If the insurance company is not covering the conditions you already have, then go find a new insurance company. Get the government out of the way and I can guarantee insurance companies will provide ways to get new customers through high-risk pools, etc. It's the government's regulations such as forcing minimum coverages (like women contributing for prostate exams), not allowing insurance companies to charge higher premiums for people who make unhealthy choices like smoking, etc. that are the cause of our current problems. Add in the massive frivolous lawsuits that force doctors to run every possible test just to provide the same diagnosis and they all cause the massive costs we currently see.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby spurgistan on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:45 pm

john9blue wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Its because the lobbiests labelled it as socialised healthcare (as per this thread for example) and, well, we all know how much US citizens like socialism...


I'm pretty sure if you want government-provided healthcare, the fact that it's called "socialized" healthcare is pretty trivial.

Hey ill give you guys the benfit of the doubt and assume you're correct. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was I who is correct.

My reasoning is the existance of the people NS/PS support and the propaganda they produce.


I guess.

I just expected the poll to be the other way around because I figured "the mob" would overwhelmingly vote for healthcare.


both sides claim to represent the will of the american people. polls are a great way to see who is truthful and who is full of shit.


No, that determines who the mob / media think is truthful and who is full of shit.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby Lootifer on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:57 pm

spurgistan wrote:No, that determines who the mob / media think is truthful and who is full of shit.

That's my key beef with democracy right there. Representation is a great thing, im just not so sure people are smart enough to decide on their own representation themselves.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Supreme Court to Decide

Postby john9blue on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:09 pm

spurgistan wrote:
john9blue wrote:
both sides claim to represent the will of the american people. polls are a great way to see who is truthful and who is full of shit.


No, that determines who the mob / media think is truthful and who is full of shit.


i was talking about who is truthful in their claim about representing the will of the people.

even if you believe that the mob is brainwashed by the media, then the minority are still full of shit if they claim to represent the people's will. they should be saying that the general public is stupid or something instead.

that way, everyone who believes they are better than everyone else will join their side. it's an effective strategy.
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