[Official] NBC Mafia Town Win MVP=trinicardinal

[jonty125]

OK, I'm not shifting. Dazza seems to have just hopped on the Leitz BW, I really am beginning to think he's fakeclaiming.

[pancakemix]

It's logical you'll find it a pretty weak case as it is a case on you! I've not played mafia for a long time, but I doubt anyone will ever say a case on themselves is a strong case. If you ask me, your defense & arguments are pretty weak.

What more do I need to say? I have claimed its up to you guys to decide if you believe it or not.

All the case is on me is that I offered to hammer after chap offered. I offered because I believed it was a fakeclaim. Maybe after chap offering I should have stayed quiet.

That is basically all your case is on me so what else can I say in defence of it?

That isn't true though. I still think your voting patterns are very telling of someone who's trying to slip through the cracks, and the offer to hammer looks like a move by someone who knows they haven't done much. Your actual contributions to the discussion have been negligible at best up until you became its subject. In my book that's more than just an iffy prospect. On top of that, your move to vote Lietz once the pressure starts lifting does you no favors, nor does your way of going about the move.

[safariguy5]

Vote Count

leitz (4)- MoB, epitaph, chap, dazza
dazza(3)- PCM, leitz, jonty
jonty(1)- strike

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline Midnight on January 23rd PST. If a lynch is not made by that time, no lynch will be declared.

[dazza2008]

It's logical you'll find it a pretty weak case as it is a case on you! I've not played mafia for a long time, but I doubt anyone will ever say a case on themselves is a strong case. If you ask me, your defense & arguments are pretty weak.

What more do I need to say? I have claimed its up to you guys to decide if you believe it or not.

All the case is on me is that I offered to hammer after chap offered. I offered because I believed it was a fakeclaim. Maybe after chap offering I should have stayed quiet.

That is basically all your case is on me so what else can I say in defence of it?

That isn't true though. I still think your voting patterns are very telling of someone who's trying to slip through the cracks, and the offer to hammer looks like a move by someone who knows they haven't done much. Your actual contributions to the discussion have been negligible at best up until you became its subject. In my book that's more than just an iffy prospect. On top of that, your move to vote Lietz once the pressure starts lifting does you no favors, nor does your way of going about the move.

Look at my day 1 voting patterns in any game. I always play that way and I think always will.

If its worth lynching a townie just because you don'tthink they are contributing enough then crack on. The mafia will be loving it.

[Leitz]

Activity has slagged here for the last week or two, what has happened?? :s

[MoB Deadly]

Once again, we have a split decision. We have been doing this since day 2 pretty much, half the game wants to go one direction and half the game wants to go in another. We don't have any solid evidence so these cases are fairly weak and more based off gut instinct.

[betiko]

I'm having some renewed interest in Jonty. He was on Trini early in the day but unvoted without jumping on either case.

unvote I aren't going to get support for a trini lynch

Leitz and dazza both have 3 votes so town need to back one case or we'll end up splitting the vote for a no lynch (I personally recommend dazza)

basically saying. Hey we have the vote split and we need to get a primary target, recommends Dazza but doesn't vote him at this point. But as momentum shifts towards dazza on it's own:

Well strike put you at L-3

vote dazza

Now you're at L-2

I find this more suspicious than what Dazza has been done. Added to some earlier misrepresenting of Rodion's case:

unvote vote Jonty

I have to say I quite see jointy as a stronger case for now and I quite agree with strike. I didn't like the "I recommend dazza". deadline is approaching and this is the case that I find the most interesting.

vote jonty

Saf prodded medefe a few days ago, still no news?

[chapcrap]

I think the case against dazza is pretty weak and built on a lot of WIFOM and what people's guts are telling them.

unvote vote jonty

[MoB Deadly]

Leitz > Jonty > Dazza in terms of scumminess in my eyes. But I didn't catch the "I recommend" part the first time, that could be a scum slip trying to get his buddys over to the dazza case.

I am willing to vote him but I would like to here from MeDeFe, and Trini said he had a case a couple times, I would like to hear that too.

[chapcrap]

Leitz > Jonty > Dazza in terms of scumminess in my eyes. But I didn't catch the "I recommend" part the first time, that could be a scum slip trying to get his buddys over to the dazza case.

I am willing to vote him but I would like to here from MeDeFe, and Trini said he had a case a couple times, I would like to hear that too.

I'd just like to vote MeDeFe, but there is no reason to throw a 4th case in the mix right now.

[pancakemix]

Hmmm. I'm still not happy with dazza's responses. They just seem canned to me and I'm not buying it. As far as Lietz goes, I can't see anything beyond general newbieness in his arguments that would lead me to cast a vote (and to his credit, he did try to make a case, even if it wasn't up to snuff). Strike makes some good points on jonty, though I'd like to hear him weigh in on the case against him before I come to a conclusion there.

[strike wolf]

So Safari...is Medefe going to be replaced?

[jonty125]

Hmmm. I'm still not happy with dazza's responses. They just seem canned to me and I'm not buying it. As far as Lietz goes, I can't see anything beyond general newbieness in his arguments that would lead me to cast a vote (and to his credit, he did try to make a case, even if it wasn't up to snuff). Strike makes some good points on jonty, though I'd like to hear him weigh in on the case against him before I come to a conclusion there.

I have already responded to strike's accusations against me

[trinicardinal]

Sorry folks. It had been my intention to review the whole of Day 2 and see if anything clicks but I have not had the time to do so. Work has been busy and I have been neglecting my mafia games and tournaments as a result. In looking back a bit though I realised that I twice made a case against Leitz. Between Leitz and Dazza I tend to more believe dazza as town and Leitz as not, but that is by no way certain.

This quote certainly stuck in my mind -

Knowing Safari, the scum will have been given ready-made fakeclaims that won't be counterclaimed, a fakeclaim can really only be exposed by analysis of night actions, and it's still a bit early for that.

So that means that although dazza's roleclaim fits it could also be a fakeclaim as could strike's soft claim etc. Based on the tone of dazza's posts though, I tend to feel that he is town. Looking back Leitz has always been seeming a little scummy to be but it just that. There is no hard evidence against him so I'm more with MoB on that issue. sg7 who has now been replaced by PCM also raised some questions in my mind and I made that case earlier in D3 as well. jonty was another who I've had my eye on but people might consider it a but OMGUS since he voted for me. Either way there have been some strange votes from him and the "i recommend" may be a slip. Then again he is also voting for dazza so it may just reflect that.

Choosing between dazza, jonty and Leitz I'd have to go for Leitz though if only because of my earlier suspicions. And I still am not getting time to do a proper review/case otherwise. Due to all of that

Vote Leitz.

[strike wolf]

Apparently I missed this on the first read through (My bad). Anyways:

unvote I aren't going to get support for a trini lynch

Leitz and dazza both have 3 votes so town need to back one case or we'll end up splitting the vote for a no lynch (I personally recommend dazza)

I had already said I would support a dazza lynch but I didn't want us to split the vote. Anyway VT is very easy scum fakeclaim so I'm going to hold fire on the unvoting.

The vote was already split 3-3. You would not have been splitting it you would have been pushing it towards dazza. This statement is inaccurate.

[MeDeFe]

First of all, sorry.


I'm inclined to believe dazza's claim of VT, the case against him has been convoluted to say the least and depends on the scum playing a perfect game, keeping track of people's location, login and posting habits, and presupposes a level of planning worthy of Operation Neptune.

Which brings me to the case I would prefer to follow: Leitz

Looking back at the case he made against dazza, I must say it's really very badly crafted, but it's long, uses a lot of quotes and can look quite convincing on a cursory read-through. But all Leitz did was to interpret dazza's posts as though dazza had a secret agenda.

Let's take the first "suspicious" point. Dazza offers to hammer Rodion right after chap offered to do it. Then dazza says to get Rodion to L-1 and either he or chap would hammer.
Frankly, I see nothing suspicious about that, but Leitz, by careful quoting, tries to make it appear as though dazza were flip-flopping, first offering and then backtracking, when all he had done was to state the facts that were apparent to everyone: That two people had offered to hammer Rodion and that one of them would do it.

And the second point? Again dazza says the obvious, we know Rodion is a good player and that he can be very convincing, it's also quite true that the longer the discussion went on the more things the scum could deduce about potential town power roles and who they might want to target. Otoh town could also deduce things about powerroles and about about scum who might not want to die alongside the town bomb.
What does Leitz make of that?

Reading this gives me a feeling of "I know I'm scum, so I know who else is scum and it's not Rodion, so let's get another townie out of the way"

That's quite the jump.

Then a very long quote and a very short comment about "soft spots". That's not building a case, that's providing filler for a post.

Now things get somewhat interesting, Leitz quotes himself and dazza's reaction to it. Let's have that in its entirety.

Vote Count

Rodion (6)- strike, chap, jonty, Mob, betiko, epitaph
strike(1)- Rodion

We're letting this drag! Rodion is two votes away, so we either let dazza or chap hammer, correct? I trust neither of them really..

So what do you suggest?

Here I mentioned we had two volunteers willing to hammer. It did feel like chap got the preference from everyone to hammer now I reread everything all over again. As a volunteer to hammer, I believe dazza here should've said: "Indeed, put him on L-1 and I will". But he didn't, so it seems he really isn't that keen on hammering after all..

Leitz goes and phrases the situation in the form of a very inconsequential question, I would say he's really just feigning input. Dazza's reaction is the only correct one to a post like that, you ask what the poster intends to do about it. And what was Leitz' response?

To be honest, I have no idea! Day 2 has been dragging on for so long, we haven't really had any case besides Rodions and his (fake) claim has forced us to lynch somebody, while actually we're not certain of who to lynch to hammer..

Check it if you don't believe me: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=213&t=156562&start=960#p3503688
So from Leitz' stance of just wanting to get the day over and done with when he was asked for input, he goes to seeing an inconsistency (which usually means scumtell) in dazza's play. Sure, sometimes things change with hindsight, but in this case... no, I don't see it.

Then Leitz quotes dazza saying that chap needs to unvote before chap can hammer, or that someone needs to vote so dazza can hammer. Leitz turns this into dazza "avoiding himself and giving chap his confidence". I'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean, I don't see how it's in any way scummy or inconsistent, though.

The scumminess of Trini putting Rodion at L-2 after chap's unvote also eludes me. The general consensus was to have chap hammer. SOMEONE needed to put Rodion at L-2 for that. Then dazza to put him at L-1 because the day 2 deadline explicitly came with the person having the most votes getting lynched and the person to vote last being the hammer. According to Leitz this is both scummy and not scummy.



So, in summary, while Leitz previous low activity may have been adequately explained, the general shoddiness of his input has not. His case against dazza took up about a third or a fourth of the page, the contents of the case, well, what contents? I think it's time we put the heat on Leitz for real, and it's good to see that some have already started.

If I count correctly, Leitz is currently at 5, with 7 necessary to lynch. I'm hesitant to put him at L-1 in case I'm wrong, but I do think a claim is in order.

[jonty125]

Apparently I missed this on the first read through (My bad). Anyways:

unvote I aren't going to get support for a trini lynch

Leitz and dazza both have 3 votes so town need to back one case or we'll end up splitting the vote for a no lynch (I personally recommend dazza)

I had already said I would support a dazza lynch but I didn't want us to split the vote. Anyway VT is very easy scum fakeclaim so I'm going to hold fire on the unvoting.

The vote was already split 3-3. You would not have been splitting it you would have been pushing it towards dazza. This statement is inaccurate.

I never said I would split the vote I meant we as the surviving folk (I can't say town as there are mafia still alive).

[chapcrap]

MeDeFe quiet for most of the day, gives no reason as to why, then suddenly decides to weigh in with a goodlarge post. Hmm, sounds a lot like day 2 for him. Stay under the radar until cases are made and then you can give your opinion.

[MeDeFe]

MeDeFe quiet for most of the day, gives no reason as to why, then suddenly decides to weigh in with a goodlarge post. Hmm, sounds a lot like day 2 for him. Stay under the radar until cases are made and then you can give your opinion.

Or maybe I don't want to burden you all with my RL.

[Leitz]

MeDeFe quiet for most of the day, gives no reason as to why, then suddenly decides to weigh in with a goodlarge post. Hmm, sounds a lot like day 2 for him. Stay under the radar until cases are made and then you can give your opinion.

Or maybe I don't want to burden you all with my RL.

Who said anything about burdening? An apology for your absence & a simple explanation won't harm. You haven't posted here for a very long time, it is normal that we would expect some kind of explanation.

@ safari: is it correct that I'm at L-2?

[safariguy5]

Vote Count

leitz (3)- MoB, dazza, trini
dazza(3)- PCM, leitz, jonty
jonty(3)- strike, betiko, chap

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline Midnight on January 23rd PST. If a lynch is not made by that time, no lynch will be declared.

[MeDeFe]

MeDeFe quiet for most of the day, gives no reason as to why, then suddenly decides to weigh in with a goodlarge post. Hmm, sounds a lot like day 2 for him. Stay under the radar until cases are made and then you can give your opinion.

Or maybe I don't want to burden you all with my RL.

Who said anything about burdening? An apology for your absence & a simple explanation won't harm. You haven't posted here for a very long time, it is normal that we would expect some kind of explanation.

@ safari: is it correct that I'm at L-2?

I did say "sorry".

And since it looks like you're not at L-2 after all.

vote Leitz

[Epitaph1]

Vote Count

leitz (3)- MoB, dazza, trini
dazza(3)- PCM, leitz, jonty
jonty(3)- strike, betiko, chap

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline Midnight on January 23rd PST. If a lynch is not made by that time, no lynch will be declared.

You forgot my vote on Leitz. But just to make sure he stays at L-2 (with MeDeFe's vote), I'll unvote. However, I'm voting for him before anyone else as of now.

[jonty125]

Vote Count

leitz (3)- MoB, dazza, trini
dazza(3)- PCM, leitz, jonty
jonty(3)- strike, betiko, chap

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline Midnight on January 23rd PST. If a lynch is not made by that time, no lynch will be declared.

You forgot my vote on Leitz. But just to make sure he stays at L-2 (with MeDeFe's vote), I'll unvote. However, I'm voting for him before anyone else as of now.

Why did you just unvote?? Leitz was at L-2 including your vote

[strike wolf]

I'm a little confused about many things. Medefe came in with a good post about Leitz but nothing overly revolutionary. Epitaph unvotes which would have switched Leitz from L-3 to L-4 with the reasoning to keep him at L-2...Jonty's suggestion of "us" splitting the vote vs. splitting the vote...well I don't see any significant diffference so how is it different? what am I missing here jonty?