Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

[patches70]

Many people who emigrate to Finland remain as second-class citizens, so they're denied access to many services which first-class citizens enjoy. Their welfare state can't support a large influx in the population of the first-class citizens, YET they need the cheap labor to keep the game going. So, what they end up with is a second-class citizenry which presents a lovely breeding grounds of xenophobia, or at least, a sense of superiority to these pesky foreigners, who aren't even good enough to be first-class citizens.

You might be onto something there, I don't know since I don't live in Finland.

One source said it's a majority of foreigners committing the crimes, especially rapes and sexual assaults.
There there is this source-

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 9MydiGQH1A

saying that 80% of hate crimes and sexual assaults are perpetrated by the majority Finn against immigrants and the "second class citizenry" as you put it. With the rest being the minorities doing each other harm. The cases where minorities messing with majority Finns is very seldom.

But lo and behold there seems to be a racism problem in Finland according to that article. Hmmmm.....

Like I said, it's easy for one to ignore their own nation's problems and point the finger at another's. Better people worry about their own communities before casting judgment on others that they have no idea the reality. Except what they read in books and statistics that is, but that's pretty far from giving a true picture. IMO.

[Woodruff]

When I was working a sales job in North Minneapolis, I walked through a black park.

What is a "black park"? No lights there? The moon doesn't come out?

The answer to that is in the text you've cut out. Nice joke though I suppose.

The text I cut out? THIS explains it:

When I was working a sales job in North Minneapolis, I walked through a black park. There was a gang of about ten black kids that aggressively taunted me with racial taunts and threats of violence and I was pretty sure I was about to get jumped. But I kept walking and did not reply like I frankly wanted to and they did not attack. (Of course, in Natty's mind that must be hard to fahthom b/c he thinks its black people getting racially bullied and not white people lol).

How does that explain what a "black park" is, ViperOverLord? Please...explain it, because I don't think you can.

[ViperOverLord]

^^^

I guess when you hear the term white neighborhood, you think of white houses and white roads and sunlight.

[Woodruff]

^^^

I guess when you hear the term white neighborhood, you think of white houses and white roads and sunlight.

"White neighborhood" is a very common term. I have never in my life heard the term "black park" (or "white park" for that matter). I quite frankly suspect you just made it up yourself...it wouldn't surprise me in the least, given the nature of your other postings in this thread.

[natty dread]

An entire post full of nothing but strawman arguments and attempts to derail the topic into something irrelevant.

Well thanks for that, we couldn't have done this discussion without one of those.

It's funny btw... how the knee-jerk response of some Americans, when someone says something about their country that they don't approve of, is to instantly launch into a tirade of "well your country is not so great either!!!!!111"

[macbone]

Look, I'm no expert on race relations. I haven't compiled a corpus of statistics or done intensive surveys. I just want to offer a few pieces of evidence for the discussion:

• When I used to deliver pizza, one of my customers one time said that she liked her neighborhood, but that there were "too many black people" there.
  
• A friend of mine visited a white fraternity house, and they told him he was the first black person to visit there who wasn't a housekeeper.
  
• The valedictorian/president of my senior council my senior year in high school said in her car once, "You know, I just don't like black people."
  
• The captain of the cheerleader squad asked me what dorm I was going to be living in, and when I told her, she kind of made a face and said there were too many black guys who lived there.
  
• A good friend of mine whose mom and dad were both professionals and lived in a very nice neighborhood (houses in the $250,000 range), told me he couldn't wait to move out of the South, that he always got weird looks when he was out walking with his white girlfriend, and that there were some parts of our small town that he didn't feel safe going with her.

I could provide more examples, but the facts remain that racism still exists in the US, at least in the Southern US. And now that I live in HK, I see racism here, too, from the way ethnic Chinese talk about foreigners with darker skin or the way Hong Kongers talk about people from the mainland (but maybe that's more prejudice than racism.)

Maybe racism always will exist, I don't know, but I believe it's better to talk about things than try to pretend they don't exist.

[natty dread]

Maybe racism always will exist, I don't know, but I believe it's better to talk about things than try to pretend they don't exist.

Exactly

[natty dread]

America is thee most tolerant and accepting nation on earth not only to skin color but also religious beliefs.

Do you have evidence for this statement?

I'm still waiting to hear the evidence for this statement.

[john9blue]

Maybe racism always will exist, I don't know, but I believe it's better to talk about things than try to pretend they don't exist.

Exactly

so if i were to talk about statistically verified racial differences, you would be okay with that? you wouldn't call me a racist?

doubt it.

[natty dread]

so if i were to talk about statistically verified racial differences,

The thing is, "racial differences" only exist in the imagination of racists.

And before you pull out the "race card" card, let me also remind you that only racists use the "race card" card.

[Neoteny]

lawl

[john9blue]

so if i were to talk about statistically verified racial differences,

The thing is, "racial differences" only exist in the imagination of racists.

And before you pull out the "race card" card, let me also remind you that only racists use the "race card" card.

what if there was a scientific study published tomorrow which showed that one race was (on average) taller than another? or smarter than another? or stronger than another?

would that be "just in my imagination"?

[thegreekdog]

Maybe racism always will exist, I don't know, but I believe it's better to talk about things than try to pretend they don't exist.

Exactly

Right... so let's talk about the blog you posted in light of the NYPD statistics that I posted. Are the actions of the NYPD in relation to the blogger racist? Why?

You mentioned you appreciate how when you attack the United States, people from the United States attack Finland (or wherever the poster happens to be from). Do you know why people do this?

I tell you what, I'll put you up in a hotel in Philadelphia for a couple of nights. We'll take a drive down to Olney or Fishtown or West Philly and we'll get out of the car. I want to see what a white guy from post-racial Finland does in these situations that makes him qualified to call Americans racist.

[Neoteny]

I tell you what, I'll put you up in a hotel in Philadelphia for a couple of nights. We'll take a drive down to Olney or Fishtown or West Philly and we'll get out of the car. I want to see what a white guy from post-racial Finland does in these situations that makes him qualified to call Americans racist.

In that situation, I would stop the first black person I see, and, in my heavy accent say, "I'm sorry to bother you, sir/ma'am, but your fellow American here is trying to prove to me that, not only should I be afraid of you, but that I should be afraid of you because you are black."

There are many ways such a situation could turn out, but we might see who qualifies as racist. If we're talking about economic/legal problems, that's one thing. If we're strictly trying to prove innate racism or some such, your statement is sorta racist in and of itself.

If I'm trying to call a northern European racist, I would probably just stick to criticizing that tradition where people go around in blackface and everyone thinks that's ok.

EDIT: IIRC that's a Dutch thing, but the great part about being American is that we can simply not give a shit about differentiating countries.

[thegreekdog]

I tell you what, I'll put you up in a hotel in Philadelphia for a couple of nights. We'll take a drive down to Olney or Fishtown or West Philly and we'll get out of the car. I want to see what a white guy from post-racial Finland does in these situations that makes him qualified to call Americans racist.

In that situation, I would stop the first black person I see, and, in my heavy accent say, "I'm sorry to bother you, sir/ma'am, but your fellow American here is trying to prove to me that, not only should I be afraid of you, but that I should be afraid of you because you are black."

There are many ways such a situation could turn out, but we might see who qualifies as racist. If we're talking about economic/legal problems, that's one thing. If we're strictly trying to prove innate racism or some such, your statement is sorta racist in and of itself.

If I'm trying to call a northern European racist, I would probably just stick to criticizing that tradition where people go around in blackface and everyone thinks that's ok.

EDIT: IIRC that's a Dutch thing, but the great part about being American is that we can simply not give a shit about differentiating countries.

You've hit the nail on the head (or at least what I was getting at). The race of those individuals doesn't matter, it's the economic situation of the individuals and the scenario you find yourself in; the race of the individuals is irrelevant. So, when I say that I would cross the street to avoid those individuals, I do not think that makes me racist and would not appreciate being called a racist.

Further, I think the statistics, at least from the NYPD, show that it's not just white people accusing a different race of crimes; the accuser is non-white in many cases.

[natty dread]

what if there was a scientific study published tomorrow which showed that one race was (on average) taller than another? or smarter than another? or stronger than another?

would that be "just in my imagination"?

So you identify yourself as the racist in the scenario of my last post? Interesting.

As for your question, that would depend on the methodology of the study, ie. how well the study was conducted. A study can get published relatively easily. Whether the science contained in a study is sound is another matter entirely.

However, scientifically speaking, the whole concept of "race" is meaningless. There are no clear boundaries in humans between different "races". We're all the same species, we only group each other according to "race" because we fear everything that we perceive to be "different" from us, and thus want to label the others as another group of people.

In short, racial differences only exist in the imagination of the racist.

[BigBallinStalin]

what if there was a scientific study published tomorrow which showed that one race was (on average) taller than another? or smarter than another? or stronger than another?

would that be "just in my imagination"?

So you identify yourself as the racist in the scenario of my last post? Interesting.

As for your question, that would depend on the methodology of the study, ie. how well the study was conducted. A study can get published relatively easily. Whether the science contained in a study is sound is another matter entirely.

However, scientifically speaking, the whole concept of "race" is meaningless. There are no clear boundaries in humans between different "races". We're all the same species, we only group each other according to "race" because we fear everything that we perceive to be "different" from us, and thus want to label the others as another group of people.

In short, racial differences only exist in the imagination of the racist.

So anyone who dedicates their life toward understanding and explaining racism is a racist?

[Woodruff]

EDIT: IIRC that's a Dutch thing, but the great part about being American is that we can simply not give a shit about differentiating countries.

TMMLOL

[Woodruff]

I don't like the poll question...it's too vague. Is it a problem? Sure...I mean, I strongly suspect it always will be in some fashion. How SERIOUS of a problem it is...that's really the telling question, in my view.

[john9blue]

what if there was a scientific study published tomorrow which showed that one race was (on average) taller than another? or smarter than another? or stronger than another?

would that be "just in my imagination"?

So you identify yourself as the racist in the scenario of my last post? Interesting.

As for your question, that would depend on the methodology of the study, ie. how well the study was conducted. A study can get published relatively easily. Whether the science contained in a study is sound is another matter entirely.

However, scientifically speaking, the whole concept of "race" is meaningless. There are no clear boundaries in humans between different "races". We're all the same species, we only group each other according to "race" because we fear everything that we perceive to be "different" from us, and thus want to label the others as another group of people.

In short, racial differences only exist in the imagination of the racist.

hmm. so those statistics that TGD posted earlier, are they racist? they show definitive differences between races.

or are you going to discard them altogether because "race doesn't exist"?

which reminds me...

Maybe racism always will exist, I don't know, but I believe it's better to talk about things than try to pretend they don't exist.

Exactly

how can you say this and then go on to claim that the concept of race has no meaning? pretending that race isn't real won't make it go away.

[natty dread]

You are being very obstinate and disingenious, do you know that? Again you seem to think you've found some clever hole in an argument, when in fact you're just basically making crap up. Your argument is the equivalent of asking "why don't they make the entire airplane out of the same material they make black boxes of"... a seemingly clever argument, but in fact entirely irrelevant and without basis in reality.

Yeah, anyone can divide people into groups according to some arbitrary distinction that they make up. That doesn't mean that those groupings are in any way scientifically relevant or reasonable.

From a biological standpoint, there's no such thing as race. There are no clear biological boundaries between "races". Is that so freaking hard to understand???

And that races are not a scientifically relevant concept still doesn't stop some people perceiving them to exist and discriminating people on that basis.

[john9blue]

just because races are not 100% distinct doesn't mean that they don't exist. it's an "argument of the beard" fallacy to say that people can't be sorted into racial categories just because there is gray area in between.

[natty dread]

People can be sorted into all kinds of categories. You can sort people into right-handed or left-handed people. You can sort people by hair colour, or favorite sex position, or the hairiness of their arse.

But when you start claiming that hairy-arsed people are a distinct biological group from smooth-arsed people, even going as far to make predictions about their behaviour based on the hairiness of their arses, then you're way off base. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Of course, try telling that to anti-arsehair-people who can't get over their prejudices about hairy-arsed people, and jump at any anecdotal thing they can use to rationalize their prejudices...

[patches70]

What you fail to understand, being from Finland, is that in the US racism is big business. There are individuals and groups who make their living convincing everyone else that racism is a serious problem. These people are as much to facilitating racism as the KKK did. If racism were to ever be eradicated then those groups would no longer exist or those individuals no longer able to gain influence.

What you fail to understand, being from Finland, is that most Americans understand what VOL was saying where you cannot understand. Where are the stats you look up for all the bogus and ridiculous claims of racism made? Where are the stats for the number of Americans who are sick of being told they are racist when it isn't so black and white (pardon the pun) as that?

A black senator gets investigated for corruption and makes the claim they are a victim of racism. ORLY?
The black firefighter applicants of a certain Newark fire department can't pass the test to get a job with the department and the test results are thrown out because they were obviously racist. In effect the Newark fire department said they'll take people to be fire fighters that are not the absolute best possible candidates. Doesn't matter that those less qualified soon to be fire fighters will be the very ones who might have to come save your ass in a fire or that will be watching the back of their fellow fire fighters. I guess standards should be lowered in that case, eh?

The education system that you claim is racist is the same for all the schools. Why is it that the black students who sit in class right along with the white students don't do as well? Racism? Really? There might not be some other explanation?

There are glaring holes in your view of the statistics as well, though you refuse to consider them. As you've ignored TGD's post completely. Why is that?

Are you selectively deciding what is and isn't evidence? Did you not dismiss another poster's anecdote though you provide an anecdote of your own and consider it valid? You know, that letter from what's his name. That's an anecdote. "Oh but it was in the newspaper!" It's still an anecdote.

The one fact there is, is that you don't understand VOL because you are not American or are privy to the subtle ways of American culture. Just as I am not privy to the subtle ways of Finnish culture. Since you are missing the finer points your conclusions are invalid because you don't have don't have enough information. Good luck you admitting that though.

[Phatscotty]

America is thee most tolerant and accepting nation on earth not only to skin color but also religious beliefs.

Do you have evidence for this statement?

I'm still waiting to hear the evidence for this statement.

still waiting for you to say why you deleted my evidence