The US-Iran Beatdown

[Symmetry]

What are the benefits?

A whole lot of Iranian people killed, some of them even bad guys.

What are the costs?

American lives, American money, American economy, American stature, America's soul and maybe even WWIII.

I'm thinking US may get Israel involved

You got it backwards there. Israel wants the US to take care of Iran. Israel could give Iran a good beating but it would only solidify hatred of Israel among all the Muslim nations and lead to backlash directed at her.
If the US does the wetwork much of that focus is diverted to us instead. Certainly Israel will be seen behind it all anyway, but the Jew haters will be busy shooting at American troops.

the benefits?

a whole lot of Americans killed, some of them even bad guys, America's economy drops, America owned by foreign Asian banks

the cost?

innocent Iranians needlessly murdered by American troops, Iranian economy suffers,

sorry but Iran, you allege as "Jew-haters" just also happen to have the largest Jewish population outside of Israel, more than America.

I assume you may counter my claim with Ahmadinejad saying how he wants to "wipe Israel of the map"? That however, is a mistranslation. He said he wanted the "Government that currently controls the land in which we call Israel today to be eliminated."

now i expect redneck American PC rambos who have never wore a uniform will attack me of my anti-american views and tell me to get out of America.

My response: sure mate, I'll leave, as soon as you get out of my country

Meh, I'm all for a reasoned debate on the Iran issue, but the mistranslation excuse? Seriously? It's part of Ahmadinejad's shtick.

Quotes advocating the destruction of Israel

after reading the article you have provided, I think that article suits my argument better.

Mr. Ahmadinejad repeatedly made clear that he is no way in favor of killing Jews. He simply opposes the "regime." He uses the word "regime" to differentiate Jews and government of Israel. Mr. Ahmadinejad, I believe can not be an anti-semite, because Iran still holds the largest population of Jews outside of Israel. Tehran has 11 synagogues. Jews in Iran also have reserved seats in Parliament.

Yeah, sorry, the guy has called frequently and explicitly for the destruction of Israel. He's not some kind of moderate. I appreciate the game you're trying to play flirting around with the race and religion stuff, but even your basic premises are lies. Iran does not have the largest population of Jews outside Israel. Link

So what are you getting at with this? It looks like anti-Semitic trolling.

[thegreekdog]

Anti-semetic trolling? I think that's going overboard. Roller didn't even criticize Jews or Israel, much less make anti-semetic comments (unless I'm missing something).

Also, roller - Iran has the highest population of Jews outside of Israel? I'm looking at 20,000 to 25,000 Jews in Iran.

[Baron Von PWN]

Anti-semetic trolling? I think that's going overboard. Roller didn't even criticize Jews or Israel, much less make anti-semetic comments (unless I'm missing something).

Also, roller - Iran has the highest population of Jews outside of Israel? I'm looking at 20,000 to 25,000 Jews in Iran.

Maybe he means in the region?

[thegreekdog]

Anti-semetic trolling? I think that's going overboard. Roller didn't even criticize Jews or Israel, much less make anti-semetic comments (unless I'm missing something).

Also, roller - Iran has the highest population of Jews outside of Israel? I'm looking at 20,000 to 25,000 Jews in Iran.

Maybe he means in the region?

I think he specifically referred to Iran as having more than the U.S.

[Baron Von PWN]

Anti-semetic trolling? I think that's going overboard. Roller didn't even criticize Jews or Israel, much less make anti-semetic comments (unless I'm missing something).

Also, roller - Iran has the highest population of Jews outside of Israel? I'm looking at 20,000 to 25,000 Jews in Iran.

Maybe he means in the region?

I think he specifically referred to Iran as having more than the U.S.

Then yeah he's full of poop. Canada has more jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

[Lootifer]

Wasnt there something in the last week or so about inspectors being let in to the Nuclear facilities? What were the results of that?

If we're talking about the same instance, then from what I recall, that offer was refused by Iran.

It's kind of funny, in a serious way.


If there was transparency, then the intentions of Iran could be made clearer.

However, it's extremely likely that at least one of the inspectors is an agent who would very likely sabotage the facility. So, the Iranians would reasonably refuse the inspection.

But, I'm pretty sure that Iran is developing nuclear weapons. RE: this thread in general, I'm just waiting for the intelligence report which explicitly states that the Iranians were/are engaging in deals with the Hezbollah to give them a nuclear bomb.

Hrmm, I remember reading/hearing something about them letting the inspectors in. But I dunno, i'll see if I can find something...

Either way, they look guilty as sin by not letting the inspectors in (lol sabotage? really?).

[Lootifer]

this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16778292

Doesnt look like theres been any release of the results/discussion as of yet...?

[Woodruff]

Wasnt there something in the last week or so about inspectors being let in to the Nuclear facilities? What were the results of that?

If we're talking about the same instance, then from what I recall, that offer was refused by Iran.

It's kind of funny, in a serious way.


If there was transparency, then the intentions of Iran could be made clearer.

However, it's extremely likely that at least one of the inspectors is an agent who would very likely sabotage the facility. So, the Iranians would reasonably refuse the inspection.

But, I'm pretty sure that Iran is developing nuclear weapons. RE: this thread in general, I'm just waiting for the intelligence report which explicitly states that the Iranians were/are engaging in deals with the Hezbollah to give them a nuclear bomb.

Hrmm, I remember reading/hearing something about them letting the inspectors in. But I dunno, i'll see if I can find something...

Either way, they look guilty as sin by not letting the inspectors in (lol sabotage? really?).

Sabotage is a very likely scenario there, in my opinion. As to the inspectors...shades of Iraq, baby.

[BigBallinStalin]

Wasnt there something in the last week or so about inspectors being let in to the Nuclear facilities? What were the results of that?

If we're talking about the same instance, then from what I recall, that offer was refused by Iran.

It's kind of funny, in a serious way.


If there was transparency, then the intentions of Iran could be made clearer.

However, it's extremely likely that at least one of the inspectors is an agent who would very likely sabotage the facility. So, the Iranians would reasonably refuse the inspection.

But, I'm pretty sure that Iran is developing nuclear weapons. RE: this thread in general, I'm just waiting for the intelligence report which explicitly states that the Iranians were/are engaging in deals with the Hezbollah to give them a nuclear bomb.

Hrmm, I remember reading/hearing something about them letting the inspectors in. But I dunno, i'll see if I can find something...

Either way, they look guilty as sin by not letting the inspectors in (lol sabotage? really?).

Oh yeah, Lootifer. It's not always sabotage, but don't walk around like Joe Schmo thinking that those inspector teams are totally neutral. It's a great way for Mossad or the CIA to gain insight into Iran's program without even having an agent there. The team is essentially informants. If the CIA or Mossad have something in mind that goes beyond the skill sets of your average inspector, then they'll mingle the agent with the inspection team. Gideon's Spies covered this, but I read it years ago, so I can't source it precisely without spending an hour skimming through it (sorry, don't love you that much).

Besides, the Israelis (most likely) have already killed one of Iran's top nuclear scientist, and have successfully infected the computers of one of Iran's centrifuges with a worm.

Iran would be stupid to let in inspector teams because the risk is too great.

[BigBallinStalin]

this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16778292

Doesnt look like theres been any release of the results/discussion as of yet...?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/04/world/middleeast/irans-supreme-leader-threatens-retaliation-against-attack.html

summary: They couldn't get the Iranians to answer their questions. And presumably the inspectors couldn't get inside the facilities.

[Lootifer]

Eh looks pretty grim for US economics then eh? le sigh...

[PLAYER57832]

Anti-semetic trolling? I think that's going overboard. Roller didn't even criticize Jews or Israel, much less make anti-semetic comments (unless I'm missing something).

Also, roller - Iran has the highest population of Jews outside of Israel? I'm looking at 20,000 to 25,000 Jews in Iran.

I don't know about that, but I did hear that Israel has a significant number of Iranien Jews just recently. Not enough to make a political difference, I don't think, but just a point.

[PLAYER57832]

The US wont be attacking Iran, though they may be forced to support an attack by Israel. Israeli papers are reporting that they have about 9 months to attack Iranian nuclear production facilities to have any degree of success. Their intelligence networks also predict that it would only knock Iranian production back 3 years.
But the US can't attack Iran at least until after the elections for obvious reasons. So, Israel will have to attack on it's own, and the threat of a US counter counter-attack will hopefully deflect any Iranian plans to respond to an air strike from Israel. It's like what happened when Israel attacked Syria or Iraq and neither country responded.
The worst possible scenario for Obama and Israel is an Iranian counter attack. The Israeli populous and industry isn't prepared for a large war, and they're not prepared to fight Hezbollah guerrillas working with Iranian regulars. Even if Iran only responds by launching their Shihad 3 missiles, nothing can stop them.

Iranian Oil is irreverent. We can't control it without Saudi permission, and the Iranians themselves are given their quota's from the Saudis. They own their oil, but it's not up to them how much to pump or sell. Furthermore,OPEC and Saudi Arabia don't need Iranian Oil, so the Iranians have one of the lowest production quotas. So that oil isn't going to play into any economic strategies.

The oil might be irrelevant to us, but apparently its not irrelevant to China, which is one big reason China is opposing sanctions against Iran.

[PLAYER57832]

The real cost?

Loss of American lives, money. Some wealth accumulated by the Cheney-ites of the world (aka Blackwater), but at the expense of most of us. We may gain in the short run, but there are no vast swaths of untouched forest or other resources and emerging technologies like there were post WWII, so instead of surging forward, we will drop down further. (having lost the chance to build up more of the non-defense industry, more sustainable operations).

Decrease in US influence.. not just in the region, but worldwide as folks bicker over wether to publically to condemn us, tolerate us or just ignore the whole bit.

Rise of China. They do depend more and more on oil, but for everyone angry at the US.. you can bet China will be there behind the scenes politely saying "well..we have a different style".

Increase the terrorism threat here.


Alternatives:
oops.. gotta go. But that is the real question, what other options can the US pursue? Sadly, real impact will mean taking down Israel a notch or two and the US does not seem willing to do that.

[PROFITS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3fdeD6e3J8

Love the terminator music.

[BigBallinStalin]

I FOUND MY NEW FAITH!

[PROFITS]

I FOUND MY NEW FAITH!

I was hoping to convert many with that one single video. In all seriousness though, you can't deny that it could lean in this direction.

The benefit would be to stop another country from developing nuclear weapons of course. Especially one that isn't our ally. It's looking like the cost would be a world war. It's a lose lose situation for us and it's unfortunate we're in this position.

[BigBallinStalin]

I FOUND MY NEW FAITH!

I was hoping to convert many with that one single video. In all seriousness though, you can't deny that it could lean in this direction.

I wouldn't correlate cherry-picked quotes from an old book with cherry-picked past events in order to explain and predict the geo-political strategy of nation-states.

If you're interested in US foreign policy, I'll send you my reading list. It ties in Iran, Israel, and Russia as well.

The benefit would be to stop another country from developing nuclear weapons of course. Especially one that isn't our ally. It's looking like the cost would be a world war. It's a lose lose situation for us and it's unfortunate we're in this position.

I don't see why Iran would do something that stupid. They'll lose if they give away a nuclear bomb to a terrorist group. They'll lose everything, and for what? Some minimal benefit of having a nuked city in Israel?

Iran has no allies, so even if they get some group to detonate that bomb in Israel, countries like Syria, Russia, Turkey, Jordan, etc. won't jump up and invade Israel--unless they want to get hit by the US. (and unless Russia wants to get nuked by the US or Israel).

Substate actors won't contribute much--if they decide to join. Civilians all around will be scared shitless from a nuclear attack, so I don't see much support for Iran at that level either.

To compare, this event isn't even as dangerous as the Cuban Missile Crisis--where actual nuclear weapons were involved.

Unless the US/Israel have good intelligence which states that Iran has/is conducting deals with specific terrorist organizations for exchanging a nuclear bomb, then I won't believe any of the propaganda and sabre-rattling out there.

[PROFITS]

I'd have to say the old book has quite a bit of a reputation for fulfilled prophecy. http://100prophecies.org/ There is some pretty detailed and accurate prophecy regarding wars about specific nations. Take out all of the end of the world stuff and just focus on Russia and Iran uniting against Israel at least. That is happening in front of our face. http://rt.com/politics/lavrov-iran-military-strike-689/ The fact that we are even speaking of the nation of Israel is prophecy that was fulfilled as well. 100 years ago, people would've put you in a mental hospital if you were to predict Israel becoming a nation again within the next 60 years. The fact that you are confirming Iran's ties to Russia are only confirming that this alliance is taking place as predicted.

Iran is pretty committed to getting these weapons. It is said by many that they are heavily influenced by their religion on this matter. http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/12th-imam.htm It doesn't look like diplomacy is much of an option here. I could think of numerous reasons why Russia or any nation would attack Israel through ground opposed to blowing it up. The land and wealth would be the 1st 2 that would come to my mind. Plus, it is considered holy land to many. It's looking like Israel is going to strike Iran before they can get their weapons and Russia would retaliate as they've been threatening to do. Those look like the given right now.

As far as what U.S or other nations do about this is all up in the air. You'd have to assume we'd back our allies. I'm not suggesting it's going to be an all out war asap, but it will eventually lead to a world war if Israel gets taken over.

[Woodruff]

I'd have to say the old book has quite a bit of a reputation for fulfilled prophecy. http://100prophecies.org/ There is some pretty detailed and accurate prophecy regarding wars about specific nations. Take out all of the end of the world stuff and just focus on Russia and Iran uniting against Israel at least.

I don't remember the terms "Russia" or "Iran" being in the Bible. Did I overlook them?

[PROFITS]

I'd have to say the old book has quite a bit of a reputation for fulfilled prophecy. http://100prophecies.org/ There is some pretty detailed and accurate prophecy regarding wars about specific nations. Take out all of the end of the world stuff and just focus on Russia and Iran uniting against Israel at least.

I don't remember the terms "Russia" or "Iran" being in the Bible. Did I overlook them?

No, you just didn't realize that the word didn't exist yet. You may not find the word computer in The Bible either. Anyways, Magog is modern day Russian and Persia is modern day Iran. I don't think there is any debate over Persia being modern day Iran. Here is some info about Magog. IDENTIFYING RUSSIA AS THE LEADER OF THIS INVASION FORCE

"And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: " (Ezekiel 38:1-3)

While it is true that the Bible generically identifies the evil forces opposed to God as 'Magog', and its leaders as 'Gog', there are etymological reasons for understanding that 'Gog' and 'Magog' may refer to what is called modern Russia. We see the name, Magog, first in Genesis 10:2, as one of the sons of Japheth, one of the grandsons of Noah. In that era, it was customary for tribal, and later, national names to evolve from the name of the original founder. "Apparently, the tribal name, Magog, moved northward from the Middle East. Josephus ... notes that Magog is called the Scythians by the Greeks ... who lived in the northern regions above the Caucasus Mountains, as forerunners of modern Russia."4

The term, 'Gog', above is translated from the Hebrew phrase, 'nesi rosh'5. While 'rosh' can be an adjective meaning 'head' or leader, it can also mean a proper place name, 'Rosh'. "The Hebrew lexicon of Brown, Driver, and Briggs indicates that Rosh here is the proper name of a people ... today's Russia."6

"'Tubal' and 'Meshech' were the fifth and sixth sons of Japheth, and their descendants settled south of the Black Sea ... The name, 'Moscow' derives from the tribal name, 'Meshech', and 'Tobolsk', the name of the principal state, from 'Tubal'.7

Therefore, it is proven conclusively that God was referring to modern Russia in this passage in Ezekiel 38-39. But, God lists one more identifying factor. In verse 38:6 and 15, and also in 39:2, God says that this attacking force shall come from the 'north'. But, the original Hebrew "gives the qualifier meaning 'extreme' or 'uttermost' to the term, 'north', all three times."8 When God gives direction in the Bible, it is always in reference to His Chosen Nation, Israel. In God's eyes, Israel is located precisely in the middle of the Earth. Therefore, what nation(s) lie to the 'uttermost north' from Israel generally, and Jerusalem specifically? Modern Russia lies directly north of Israel and Moscow lies directly north of Jerusalem.9 http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1037.html

[PROFITS]

Hey Woodruff, I had you on for for some reason, but I took u off to read your post.

[Woodruff]

I'd have to say the old book has quite a bit of a reputation for fulfilled prophecy. http://100prophecies.org/ There is some pretty detailed and accurate prophecy regarding wars about specific nations. Take out all of the end of the world stuff and just focus on Russia and Iran uniting against Israel at least.

I don't remember the terms "Russia" or "Iran" being in the Bible. Did I overlook them?

No, you just didn't realize that the word didn't exist yet.

But you said that it was a "pretty detailed and accurate prophecy regarding wars about specific nations". How can it be "pretty detailed", "accurate", OR "about specific nations" if the nations themselves aren't actually referenced.

You may not find the word computer in The Bible either. Anyways, Magog is modern day Russian and Persia is modern day Iran.

And cheese is bologna.

I understand all of the permutations that you can go through to equate all of the things to make Biblical prophesies work. And I suppose that's fine until you state that the Bible's prophecies are detailed, accurate or about specific nations, in which case they need to actually be those things. The Bible's prophecies are not.

Hey Woodruff, I had you on for for some reason, but I took u off to read your post.

I'm not sure whether I should be insulted or pleased. <laughing>

[PROFITS]

I'd have to say the old book has quite a bit of a reputation for fulfilled prophecy. http://100prophecies.org/ There is some pretty detailed and accurate prophecy regarding wars about specific nations. Take out all of the end of the world stuff and just focus on Russia and Iran uniting against Israel at least.

I don't remember the terms "Russia" or "Iran" being in the Bible. Did I overlook them?

No, you just didn't realize that the word didn't exist yet.

But you said that it was a "pretty detailed and accurate prophecy regarding wars about specific nations". How can it be "pretty detailed", "accurate", OR "about specific nations" if the nations themselves aren't actually referenced.

You may not find the word computer in The Bible either. Anyways, Magog is modern day Russian and Persia is modern day Iran.

And cheese is bologna.

I understand all of the permutations that you can go through to equate all of the things to make Biblical prophesies work. And I suppose that's fine until you state that the Bible's prophecies are detailed, accurate or about specific nations, in which case they need to actually be those things. The Bible's prophecies are not.

Hey Woodruff, I had you on for for some reason, but I took u off to read your post.

I'm not sure whether I should be insulted or pleased. <laughing>

How are they not? I posted my sources for what I was referring to with the scripture and details. You are simply just stating it isn't without anything to back up your claims. Which prophecy are you referring to?

[Baron Von PWN]

I'd have to say the old book has quite a bit of a reputation for fulfilled prophecy. http://100prophecies.org/ There is some pretty detailed and accurate prophecy regarding wars about specific nations. Take out all of the end of the world stuff and just focus on Russia and Iran uniting against Israel at least.

I don't remember the terms "Russia" or "Iran" being in the Bible. Did I overlook them?

No, you just didn't realize that the word didn't exist yet. You may not find the word computer in The Bible either. Anyways, Magog is modern day Russian and Persia is modern day Iran. I don't think there is any debate over Persia being modern day Iran. Here is some info about Magog. IDENTIFYING RUSSIA AS THE LEADER OF THIS INVASION FORCE

"And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: " (Ezekiel 38:1-3)

While it is true that the Bible generically identifies the evil forces opposed to God as 'Magog', and its leaders as 'Gog', there are etymological reasons for understanding that 'Gog' and 'Magog' may refer to what is called modern Russia. We see the name, Magog, first in Genesis 10:2, as one of the sons of Japheth, one of the grandsons of Noah. In that era, it was customary for tribal, and later, national names to evolve from the name of the original founder. "Apparently, the tribal name, Magog, moved northward from the Middle East. Josephus ... notes that Magog is called the Scythians by the Greeks ... who lived in the northern regions above the Caucasus Mountains, as forerunners of modern Russia."4

The term, 'Gog', above is translated from the Hebrew phrase, 'nesi rosh'5. While 'rosh' can be an adjective meaning 'head' or leader, it can also mean a proper place name, 'Rosh'. "The Hebrew lexicon of Brown, Driver, and Briggs indicates that Rosh here is the proper name of a people ... today's Russia."6

"'Tubal' and 'Meshech' were the fifth and sixth sons of Japheth, and their descendants settled south of the Black Sea ... The name, 'Moscow' derives from the tribal name, 'Meshech', and 'Tobolsk', the name of the principal state, from 'Tubal'.7

Therefore, it is proven conclusively that God was referring to modern Russia in this passage in Ezekiel 38-39. But, God lists one more identifying factor. In verse 38:6 and 15, and also in 39:2, God says that this attacking force shall come from the 'north'. But, the original Hebrew "gives the qualifier meaning 'extreme' or 'uttermost' to the term, 'north', all three times."8 When God gives direction in the Bible, it is always in reference to His Chosen Nation, Israel. In God's eyes, Israel is located precisely in the middle of the Earth. Therefore, what nation(s) lie to the 'uttermost north' from Israel generally, and Jerusalem specifically? Modern Russia lies directly north of Israel and Moscow lies directly north of Jerusalem.9 http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1037.html

What a bunch of poo. Seriously where do you nutters come up with this?


First of all the Russian people originated from viking groups known as the Varangians, with heavy cultural influences from Kievan Rus. The varangians dominated the tributaries centred around Moscow and were the forefathers of the duchy of Muscovy which expanded into the Russian state.

Secondly the scynthians disappeared around the first century BC. With all indications that they moved south east and not north, if they weren't destroyed by nomadic tribes moving west (Kazakhs) .

Rosh= Russ? are you kidding me? this isin't even how the Russians pronounce it which is much closer to "rue" as in "rue the day" or "Ruesskii" meaning the Russian people.

Moscow, the western bastardisation of "maskva" derived from the tribal name Meshech? Who the f*ck are the Meshech? I have studied allot about Russia not once have I EVER heard of these guys. SO what's your source for this previously unheard of tribe, who is the supposed origin of Maskva (which clearly has fino-urgic origins by the way)?

The Coming Russian Invasion Of Israel", updated, by Thomas S.
McCall & Zola Levitt, Moody Press, chicago, 1974, 1987,

Oh, the comming invasion of Isreal by Russia,,,, published in 1974.... any day now!!

Tubal?!? wtf. There is nothing resembling Tubal anywhere near Moscow.

I have found reference of Tubal and Meshech as being Georgian.

Holly shit realy? Russia the country that covers 1/6th of the planet primarily ringing the north pole is north of Isreal. MIND BLOWN.


Seriously I think this is some of the dumbest crap I've read in a while.