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US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

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US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby Ray Rider on Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:49 pm

So I was reading on the news recently and found out that the US Senate hasn't passed a budget since 2009. As this article states, "To put 1,000 days in perspective, there was no such thing as an iPad when Stabenow and her colleagues last passed a budget. General Motors had never declared bankruptcy, and our national debt was $4 trillion smaller." Now from the surface this appears to be an egregious example of complete fiscal mismanagement to the point where there is no reason to make a budget since the government would refuse to follow it anyway. Or perhaps this is a way to disguise where the spending levels really are so the government cannot be held accountable for anything.

I don't know much about the US government or how the budget process works, but here in Canada I don't think such a thing is even possible. Creating a budget is one of our government's most major, well-publicized duties. How is it that this lack of a budget isn't on the headlines of all the US papers? Does it really not matter? If it does, whose fault is it? As far as I understand, it's the president's responsibility to submit a budget to Congress, which may agree to it and pass it on to the Senate which may ratify it. Is this the case? Some might say that Congress is to blame with the gridlock that has been created there, but then why wasn't a budget passed even when the Democrats controlled the White House, Congress, and Senate? It seems to me that the bulk of the blame rests with the president himself in either A) not submitting a budget or B) not submitting a reasonable budget which could pass both houses. Is this a reasonable conclusion? I'm curious to read your viewpoints on this.


The Detroit News wrote:Around kitchen and boardroom tablesacross the state, Michigan families and businesses are figuring out their budgets for the year, deciding where to cut, where to grow and what should stay the same. Unlike these responsible Americans, Debbie Stabenow and other Senate Democrats have decided to fly blind. In fact, it has been more than 1,000 days since Senate Democrats passed a budget.

To put 1,000 days in perspective, there was no such thing as an iPad when Stabenow and her colleagues last passed a budget. General Motors had never declared bankruptcy, and our national debt was $4 trillion smaller.

A budget serves as a financial blueprint for the government, and it lets taxpayers and employers know how the government is going to impact their bottom line.

Knowing what the tax rates are going to be in the next 12 to 24 months is critical to small-business owners as they look to expand. Will they have enough after-tax income to be able to grow or will the tax structure be changed in a way that makes job creation more difficult? This uncertainty discourages the risk-taking necessary for the American entrepreneurial spirit to flourish again.

Moreover, without a budget, spending will increase, as there is no restraint, no boundaries. By writing and passing a budget, we can identify the funding that must be prioritized, while separating out and eliminating the pet projects and irresponsible spending of our hard-earned tax dollars.

As we begin to curb federal spending, we can work toward lower, more reasonable tax rates. Passing a balanced budget would also be the first step toward reducing our mountainous debt and putting our economy back on the path toward growth.

While she sits on the Senate Budget Committee, Stabenow has failed to support or vote for the simplest form of fiscal restraint — a budget — since 2009.

As our country's national debt has spiraled past the $15 trillion mark, the Senate has provided no road map for getting the spending under control.

Without an accurate and specific public plan that accounts for how much the government will collect in taxes — and how much more than that figure it will spend — our nation will be caught in a vicious cycle of fiscal irresponsibility that gives us more debt, fewer jobs, higher taxes and even more government spending.

Democrats like Senate Majority Leader Reid of Nevada seem to believe there is no need for a budget. In fact, in a May 2011 interview, Reid stated, "There's no need to have a Democratic budget in my opinion." He went on to say creating a budget at this stage was "foolish."

Doing nothing, however, is not a strategy.

Defaulting to the "do nothing" strategy might be the easy way out, but it's not going to put our country and our economy back on track.

I know it is not a painless or simple process to pass a budget in Washington, but that isn't an excuse for failed leadership.

For six years, I worked on the House Budget Committee, pinching pennies so taxpayers wouldn't have to foot the bill for more wasteful spending. We laid out a road map that restrained the growth of spending, reformed welfare and cut taxes — a road map that led to balanced budgets and solid economic growth.

At this critical moment in our history when economic recovery is teetering and millions of Americans are unemployed, we just can't afford the status quo. For over 33 months, the Senate has allowed our government to operate without any framework for how it spends our tax dollars.

For 142 weeks, it has increased spending, but failed to outline how we're going to get our fiscal house in order and balance the budget. Michiganians cannot afford another 1,000 days without leadership. The time to return fiscal discipline and responsibility to our government is long past due and the first step comes this November.
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby patches70 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:08 pm

Ray Rider wrote:
How is it that this lack of a budget isn't on the headlines of all the US papers? Does it really not matter? If it does, whose fault is it?


Because the US media for the most part is a joke.

Ray Rider wrote:As far as I understand, it's the president's responsibility to submit a budget to Congress, which may agree to it and pass it on to the Senate which may ratify it. Is this the case?


Obama did submit a budget back when the Dems held super majorities and it was so outrageous that even his own party rejected it. He submits one every year and Congress fails to act upon it.

Ray Rider wrote: Some might say that Congress is to blame with the gridlock that has been created there, but then why wasn't a budget passed even when the Democrats controlled the White House, Congress, and Senate? It seems to me that the bulk of the blame rests with the president himself in either A) not submitting a budget or B) not submitting a reasonable budget which could pass both houses. Is this a reasonable conclusion? I'm curious to read your viewpoints on this.
[/quote]

The reason a budget can't get passed is because all the submitted budgets to date have had Trillion $+ deficits. It's so bad that no Congressman would consider actually voting for such deficits. Political suicide so to speak. Ultimately the purse strings are in Congress' control.

As it stands now appropriations are made through the various Congressional appropriation committees. All the money being spent is thus duly appropriated as per the Constitution, technically. However, without an overall budget I find it somewhat disingenuous that the letter of the Constitution is being applied in the requirement that a "regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures" of all public money has been met for this 1,000+ days. As is Constitutionally required. I guess they say that all this stuff is printed and published, except one has to go through the various agencies one by one to get the information instead of a nice tidy budget that one can look through to see all spending and such.

They (Congress) seems to have given up on accountability or transparency. It is what it is. The US central government will spend what it wants and insulates itself from criticism or review. In other words they spend like drunken sailors on shore leave in whoretown.

We Americans get the government we deserve......
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby Ray Rider on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:51 pm

patches70 wrote:
Ray Rider wrote: Some might say that Congress is to blame with the gridlock that has been created there, but then why wasn't a budget passed even when the Democrats controlled the White House, Congress, and Senate? It seems to me that the bulk of the blame rests with the president himself in either A) not submitting a budget or B) not submitting a reasonable budget which could pass both houses. Is this a reasonable conclusion? I'm curious to read your viewpoints on this.


The reason a budget can't get passed is because all the submitted budgets to date have had Trillion $+ deficits. It's so bad that no Congressman would consider actually voting for such deficits. Political suicide so to speak. Ultimately the purse strings are in Congress' control.

As it stands now appropriations are made through the various Congressional appropriation committees. All the money being spent is thus duly appropriated as per the Constitution, technically. However, without an overall budget I find it somewhat disingenuous that the letter of the Constitution is being applied in the requirement that a "regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures" of all public money has been met for this 1,000+ days. As is Constitutionally required. I guess they say that all this stuff is printed and published, except one has to go through the various agencies one by one to get the information instead of a nice tidy budget that one can look through to see all spending and such.

They (Congress) seems to have given up on accountability or transparency. It is what it is. The US central government will spend what it wants and insulates itself from criticism or review. In other words they spend like drunken sailors on shore leave in whoretown.

We Americans get the government we deserve......

Thanks for the explanation! These are sad times though...reminds me of what you read of the last days of the Roman Republic.

It also makes me wonder if anyone could do any worse than Obama. I'm no fan of Romney/Santorum/Gringrich, but surely they could do no worse or even perhaps somewhat better?
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby spurgistan on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:12 pm

It depends if Congress lets them do anything.
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:16 pm

blah blah blah, this had nothing to do with the USA first ever downgrade......it was all because of the way the minority in the House of Representatives tone sounded......
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:24 pm

Ray Rider wrote:
patches70 wrote:
Ray Rider wrote: Some might say that Congress is to blame with the gridlock that has been created there, but then why wasn't a budget passed even when the Democrats controlled the White House, Congress, and Senate? It seems to me that the bulk of the blame rests with the president himself in either A) not submitting a budget or B) not submitting a reasonable budget which could pass both houses. Is this a reasonable conclusion? I'm curious to read your viewpoints on this.


The reason a budget can't get passed is because all the submitted budgets to date have had Trillion $+ deficits. It's so bad that no Congressman would consider actually voting for such deficits. Political suicide so to speak. Ultimately the purse strings are in Congress' control.

As it stands now appropriations are made through the various Congressional appropriation committees. All the money being spent is thus duly appropriated as per the Constitution, technically. However, without an overall budget I find it somewhat disingenuous that the letter of the Constitution is being applied in the requirement that a "regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures" of all public money has been met for this 1,000+ days. As is Constitutionally required. I guess they say that all this stuff is printed and published, except one has to go through the various agencies one by one to get the information instead of a nice tidy budget that one can look through to see all spending and such.

They (Congress) seems to have given up on accountability or transparency. It is what it is. The US central government will spend what it wants and insulates itself from criticism or review. In other words they spend like drunken sailors on shore leave in whoretown.

We Americans get the government we deserve......

Thanks for the explanation! These are sad times though...reminds me of what you read of the last days of the Roman Republic.

It also makes me wonder if anyone could do any worse than Obama. I'm no fan of Romney/Santorum/Gringrich, but surely they could do no worse or even perhaps somewhat better?


great posts guys. Just remember it wasn't supposed to be like this. When in Obama's first year, he gave us our first trillion dollar+ deficit, not only was it because Bush made him do it :lol: but it was supposed to be the only year, since all that spending was supposed to fix the problems. Remember these projections?

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We are supposed to be at a 250 billion dollar deficit this year.. :lol: :lol: :lol: We have head trillion dollar deficits every single year since (also, nothing to do with being downgraded :twisted: ). 2012 projection just came out last week at 1.33 trillion again. No biggie, Democrats only missed the target by 1,000,000,000,000 yet again.
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby patches70 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:04 pm

For those who care, Mister Obama released a draft his 2013 budget proposal today. It forecasts a $901 billion deficit for year 2013. For sake of clarity this same administration didn't get it right when projecting the 2011 deficit (which is $1.33 trillion).

The draft didn't detail all the details of his budget proposal but it is basing it's deficit numbers on the Bush era tax cuts being ended. Also, this budget guarantees the government will hit the debt ceiling again before the Presidential election. So remember, during the absolute thick of the Presidential election the US federal government will be plundering government pension funds yet again to keep afloat.
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby Woodruff on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:25 pm

patches70 wrote:For those who care, Mister Obama released a draft his 2013 budget proposal today. It forecasts a $901 billion deficit for year 2013. For sake of clarity this same administration didn't get it right when projecting the 2011 deficit (which is $1.33 trillion).

The draft didn't detail all the details of his budget proposal but it is basing it's deficit numbers on the Bush era tax cuts being ended. Also, this budget guarantees the government will hit the debt ceiling again before the Presidential election. So remember, during the absolute thick of the Presidential election the US federal government will be plundering government pension funds yet again to keep afloat.


That doesn't seem to be a very strong campaign issue for the President...you'd think he'd be trying really hard to avoid this.
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby patches70 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:48 pm

Woodruff wrote:
patches70 wrote:For those who care, Mister Obama released a draft his 2013 budget proposal today. It forecasts a $901 billion deficit for year 2013. For sake of clarity this same administration didn't get it right when projecting the 2011 deficit (which is $1.33 trillion).

The draft didn't detail all the details of his budget proposal but it is basing it's deficit numbers on the Bush era tax cuts being ended. Also, this budget guarantees the government will hit the debt ceiling again before the Presidential election. So remember, during the absolute thick of the Presidential election the US federal government will be plundering government pension funds yet again to keep afloat.


That doesn't seem to be a very strong campaign issue for the President...you'd think he'd be trying really hard to avoid this.


Hitting the debt ceiling is impossible to avoid especially at the current spending levels. It's also why the budget won't be passed for yet again another year.

As for a campaign issue, the CBO said we could get a balanced budget and keep spending like we do and the only thing that needs to be done is-
Raise the lowest income tax bracket of 10% to 25%
Raise the middle income tax bracket of 25% to 66%
Raise the 35% tax bracket to 92%.

Of course, that's just not feasible. To raise taxes to the required levels would absolutely destroy the nation.

The American electorate is wedged in the spot of refusing to raise taxes and refusing to lower spending. That leaves only one option after that, keep going into debt. Why worry about the bills today when we can just pass them on to our as of yet unborn children?

The politicians seem to think they can just keep kicking this can down the road but it's not an option. If you were to go to the debt clock website (you can look it up, US Debt Clock.org) and there is a "fast forward" option on it. You can fast forward the debt clock to February 2016, when we'll be ramping up for the next election. The debt will be (at current levels of spending) $24.1 trillion (138.9% of GDP) and our interest payment alone on that debt will be $4.8 trillion. (<---LOLOLOL).

So, how long do we think we can keep up this spending since it's impossible to tax or grow our way out of this mess?

The politicians want us to believe we can keep it up forever. Not every likely IMO.
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby Woodruff on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:51 pm

patches70 wrote:As for a campaign issue, the CBO said we could get a balanced budget and keep spending like we do and the only thing that needs to be done is-
Raise the lowest income tax bracket of 10% to 25%
Raise the middle income tax bracket of 25% to 66%
Raise the 35% tax bracket to 92%.
Of course, that's just not feasible. To raise taxes to the required levels would absolutely destroy the nation.


I'm not necessarily convinced it would destroy the nation. It would hurt though. However, were we to do that, we should do it with the intent of getting rid of the damn debt, not keep spending like we are.
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby patches70 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:55 pm

Woodruff wrote:
That doesn't seem to be a very strong campaign issue for the President...you'd think he'd be trying really hard to avoid this.


Obama is pretty damn shrewd as well. This may well play in his favor, since cutting spending is an absolute no-no. His message of "Let's stick it ta tha rich folks!" may play well for him since there are a lot more voting doles than there are voting rich people.
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby patches70 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:58 pm

Woodruff wrote:
patches70 wrote:As for a campaign issue, the CBO said we could get a balanced budget and keep spending like we do and the only thing that needs to be done is-
Raise the lowest income tax bracket of 10% to 25%
Raise the middle income tax bracket of 25% to 66%
Raise the 35% tax bracket to 92%.
Of course, that's just not feasible. To raise taxes to the required levels would absolutely destroy the nation.


I'm not necessarily convinced it would destroy the nation. It would hurt though. However, were we to do that, we should do it with the intent of getting rid of the damn debt, not keep spending like we are.


Holy shit? Are you serious? If you are making $100K a year and the government takes $66K of it you'd be ok with that? My ass.

If you are making $40K a year and the government taking $10K of that you'd be ok with that? My ass. All those taxes on top of the State, local and sales taxes, fees and other costs. That leaves practically nothing. Those taxes levels would destroy the middle class, the richest Americans would flee the nation in a heartbeat if they had to give up 92% of their money.

There would be no reason to work. Better to just go on the government dole in that scenario. Then there is no one left to pay taxes.
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby patches70 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:03 pm

Woodruff wrote: However, were we to do that, we should do it with the intent of getting rid of the damn debt, not keep spending like we are.


That's the thing though isn't it? No way Medicare, Medicaid and SS are going to be cut. Medicare and Medicaid account for 49% of total government spending as it is already.

There is no way the government can cut what they need to without people taking to the streets like they are in Greece. Hell, look at what happened just trying to get the teachers to pay a little more for their own retirement and healthcare in Wisconsin. Imagine that nationwide except much deeper cuts.

It'd be chaos. Not that you're not right, government spending has to be cut. But under the current monetary system it is IMPOSSIBLE to actually ever pay off the debt. To pay off the debt means to destroy the currency. That's what far too few people understand about our currency.
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby InkL0sed on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:07 pm

patches70 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
patches70 wrote:As for a campaign issue, the CBO said we could get a balanced budget and keep spending like we do and the only thing that needs to be done is-
Raise the lowest income tax bracket of 10% to 25%
Raise the middle income tax bracket of 25% to 66%
Raise the 35% tax bracket to 92%.
Of course, that's just not feasible. To raise taxes to the required levels would absolutely destroy the nation.


I'm not necessarily convinced it would destroy the nation. It would hurt though. However, were we to do that, we should do it with the intent of getting rid of the damn debt, not keep spending like we are.


Holy shit? Are you serious? If you are making $100K a year and the government takes $66K of it you'd be ok with that? My ass.



That's not how tax brackets work.
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:18 pm

Dude, who cares about unfunded liabilities!?
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby Ray Rider on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:12 pm

patches70 wrote:For those who care, Mister Obama released a draft his 2013 budget proposal today. It forecasts a $901 billion deficit for year 2013. For sake of clarity this same administration didn't get it right when projecting the 2011 deficit (which is $1.33 trillion).

The draft didn't detail all the details of his budget proposal but it is basing it's deficit numbers on the Bush era tax cuts being ended. Also, this budget guarantees the government will hit the debt ceiling again before the Presidential election. So remember, during the absolute thick of the Presidential election the US federal government will be plundering government pension funds yet again to keep afloat.

Yeah, I just read about it on the New York Times...pretty amusing stuff. The budget makes the news but it doesn't even mention that his previous three budgets have been rejected.

However I didn't catch that part about the government hitting the debt ceiling again. Obama must know what he's doing though--he's probably betting on another gridlock happening in Congress, at which point he'll blame the problems on them and distract the public from the real issues at hand.

patches70 wrote:All those taxes on top of the State, local and sales taxes, fees and other costs. That leaves practically nothing. Those taxes levels would destroy the middle class, the richest Americans would flee the nation in a heartbeat if they had to give up 92% of their money.

Hey, we would welcome them into Canada with all their wealth and experience. We're lowering our business tax rate over here and even have special committees for the purpose of getting rid of government red tape! Yeah it's cold here, but you could fly back south for a holiday whenever ya need it!
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:54 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Dude, who cares about unfunded liabilities!?


140 trillion?
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:54 pm

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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby patches70 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:03 pm

Ray Rider wrote:
However I didn't catch that part about the government hitting the debt ceiling again. Obama must know what he's doing though--he's probably betting on another gridlock happening in Congress, at which point he'll blame the problems on them and distract the public from the real issues at hand.


Zerohedge watches that stuff and reports we'll hit the debt ceiling just before the election at the rate we are going. The media won't report about hitting the debt ceiling until it's ordered to by the State.



RayRider wrote:Hey, we would welcome them into Canada with all their wealth and experience. We're lowering our business tax rate over here and even have special committees for the purpose of getting rid of government red tape! Yeah it's cold here, but you could fly back south for a holiday whenever ya need it!


We kind of gave the Canadians the finger when we turned down the Keystone pipeline. No worries for our northern friends though, I hear you just signed a bunch of new trade agreements with China, didn't ya? Those talks stalled for a long time but right after the announcement about the pipeline Canada and China can to big agreements trade wise.



Anyway, the breakdown for Obama's budget. We have to remember that it's counting on the repeal of the Bush tax cuts as well in these projections.

Image


InkL0sed wrote: That's not how tax brackets work.


True. A person making $40K a year would have to pay an extra $1,300-$2,500 a year, depending on how the CBO meant in regards to the other tax brackets. I'm not sure if they meant the only brackets would have to be 25%, 66% and 92% or if they'd run it as such-
25%, 15%, 66%, 28%, 33% 92% (which makes no sense). I interpret the brackets being 25%, 25%, 66%, 66%, 66%, 92% which would make tax day a real bummer to especially the middle class. That tax bracket breakdown would effectively cap income for American citizens and that is quite unAmerican IMO....
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby patches70 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:05 pm

Ray Rider wrote:Hey, we would welcome them into Canada with all their wealth and experience. We're lowering our business tax rate over here...


Keep your eyes open, the White House is thinking about proposing a "global minimum tax" so that companies fleeing to other shores over taxes will still pay their "fair share."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/whi ... 26749.html

Could you imagine, the White House saying to Canada- "Your corporate taxes are too low. You'll have to raise them".

The US has the highest corporate tax in the world. Everyone else needs to raise their taxes so we can compete fairly......
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:03 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Dude, who cares about unfunded liabilities!?


140 trillion?


No worries! At least good intentions are being fulfilled!
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:12 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Dude, who cares about unfunded liabilities!?


140 trillion?


No worries! At least good intentions are being fulfilled!


Is enslaving our children and their children into a debt that everyone knows is too big to pay off a good intention?
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:21 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Dude, who cares about unfunded liabilities!?


140 trillion?


No worries! At least good intentions are being fulfilled!


Is enslaving our children and their children into a debt that everyone knows is too big to pay off a good intention?


Suppose I like a lot of debt. I'm a collector of sorts. What then, Phatscotty, what then?
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby patches70 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:16 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Dude, who cares about unfunded liabilities!?


140 trillion?


No worries! At least good intentions are being fulfilled!


Is enslaving our children and their children into a debt that everyone knows is too big to pay off a good intention?


Suppose I like a lot of debt. I'm a collector of sorts. What then, Phatscotty, what then?


That would make you a banker, BBS.....
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Re: US Senate: 1,000+ Days Since Previous Budget

Postby Woodruff on Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:34 pm

patches70 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
patches70 wrote:As for a campaign issue, the CBO said we could get a balanced budget and keep spending like we do and the only thing that needs to be done is-
Raise the lowest income tax bracket of 10% to 25%
Raise the middle income tax bracket of 25% to 66%
Raise the 35% tax bracket to 92%.
Of course, that's just not feasible. To raise taxes to the required levels would absolutely destroy the nation.


I'm not necessarily convinced it would destroy the nation. It would hurt though. However, were we to do that, we should do it with the intent of getting rid of the damn debt, not keep spending like we are.


Holy shit? Are you serious? If you are making $100K a year and the government takes $66K of it you'd be ok with that? My ass.


You don't believe there's a difference between "absolutely destroy the nation" and "be ok with that"? To quote you...Holy shit? Are you serious?

patches70 wrote:If you are making $40K a year and the government taking $10K of that you'd be ok with that? My ass. All those taxes on top of the State, local and sales taxes, fees and other costs. That leaves practically nothing. Those taxes levels would destroy the middle class, the richest Americans would flee the nation in a heartbeat if they had to give up 92% of their money.


The middle class hardly exists as it is. The idea that the richest Americans would flee the nation in droves is unlikely, frankly.

patches70 wrote:There would be no reason to work. Better to just go on the government dole in that scenario. Then there is no one left to pay taxes.


Your doom and gloom doesn't really make a lot of sense, you realize.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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