Stop ACTA

[BigBallinStalin]

then European companies who have similar interests would be doing the same.

Would they? I'm not so sure. The movie/music industry in Europe is in much smaller scale than the one in America. There's not so much to be gained for most European companies to implement draconian intellectual property laws or copyrights that get extended every time disney characters might go to public domain... In other words, I'm not so sure that European companies would have sufficient incentive to seek such legislation if American companies didn't already seek to do it.

Perhaps not, but there's still an incentive for them to use rent-seeking in order to enrich themselves. It just depends on the transaction costs and perceived value of such a course of action. We can't know because a few American corporations are already rent-seeking, so the demand for rent-seeking from the European companies is unnecessary because the few American companies are already achieving what the select European companies would want anyway). If we can agree with that, then I'll settle with that.

What I found most problematic about your position is how you place so much responsibility on (a few) American corporations. "It's all because of AMERICAN corporations and their lobbying money and corruption that this agreement is even being pushed." But who agrees to this? If any European government signs up with this, then it's both a few American corporations and the pro-ACTA European governments which should be held accountable.

In either case, I was mainly just responding to Night Strike's absurd claim that "Europe doesn't care about individual rights".

Well, didn't you know, natty dread, formerly known as natty_dread? Europeans are heartless zombie socialists who will destroy anything resembling private life or personal freedom. All for the collective of Europe, the almighty decision-making entity! ZOMMM.... ZOMMMM..... ZOMMM....

[natty dread]

What I found most problematic about your position is how you place so much responsibility on (a few) American corporations. "It's all because of AMERICAN corporations and their lobbying money and corruption that this agreement is even being pushed." But who agrees to this? If any European government signs up with this, then it's both a few American corporations and the pro-ACTA European governments which should be held accountable.

I don't think any government in Europe can really be said to be pro-ACTA. In case you didn't know, the signing of ACTA was done backhandedly, behind closed doors, by the agricultural ministers of the EU parliament. There was no democratic process involved, the elected governments of European countries didn't get to decide whether or not to sign ACTA, or possibly they were misled about the contents of the agreement.

Also, Obama has also signed the treaty... what happened about his supposed opposition against SOPA? If he was really against SOPA, why would he then turn his coat and sign ACTA? And if he wasn't really against SOPA, did he just say it to jump on a suddenly popular cause? Elections coming and all? Hmm.

[BigBallinStalin]

What I found most problematic about your position is how you place so much responsibility on (a few) American corporations. "It's all because of AMERICAN corporations and their lobbying money and corruption that this agreement is even being pushed." But who agrees to this? If any European government signs up with this, then it's both a few American corporations and the pro-ACTA European governments which should be held accountable.

I don't think any government in Europe can really be said to be pro-ACTA. In case you didn't know, the signing of ACTA was done backhandedly, behind closed doors, by the agricultural ministers of the EU parliament. There was no democratic process involved, the elected governments of European countries didn't get to decide whether or not to sign ACTA, or possibly they were misled about the contents of the agreement.

That's odd. I guess I'll shift blame to a few American companies, the US government, and the EU government. I didn't think the executive branch (including cabinet positions) could exercise so much authority over the EU. That's why I tend to mistrust these plans of centralizing political authority. Ideally, it would be great if they were "more democratic," but this is what we get. It seems unavoidable with larger governments because expanded government authority over greater boundaries also reduces the costs and increases the benefits of rent-seeking.

How do the checks and balance work in that system--regarding ACTA? How would ACTA be enforced?

Also, Obama has also signed the treaty... what happened about his supposed opposition against SOPA? If he was really against SOPA, why would he then turn his coat and sign ACTA? And if he wasn't really against SOPA, did he just say it to jump on a suddenly popular cause? Elections coming and all? Hmm.

Natty, natty, natty. Obama clearly cares about the people of America because without ACTA hardly any creative content in film and music would be produced. Look at the rampant replication of such content! Clearly, the businesses, whose profits are harmed, are incapable of re-organizing their capital in order to secure profit through different means. The common good and common will are perfectly in sync with the hand of our glorious leader Obama.

[Woodruff]

I wonder where are the people on this forum who always go on about the virtues of the free market economy are... Shouldn't you guys be on the frontline opposition against ACTA?

Im a free freemarketeer! But im "heart" and unfortunately have the lamest super power.

BBS is wind though, he might be able to help.

He's full of wind, anyway.

[BigBallinStalin]

I wonder where are the people on this forum who always go on about the virtues of the free market economy are... Shouldn't you guys be on the frontline opposition against ACTA?

Im a free freemarketeer! But im "heart" and unfortunately have the lamest super power.

BBS is wind though, he might be able to help.

He's full of wind, anyway.

At least it smells of strawberries and flowers from the meadows!

[natty dread]

That's odd. I guess I'll shift blame to a few American companies, the US government, and the EU government. I didn't think the executive branch (including cabinet positions) could exercise so much authority over the EU. That's why I tend to mistrust these plans of centralizing political authority. Ideally, it would be great if they were "more democratic," but this is what we get. It seems unavoidable with larger governments because expanded government authority over greater boundaries also reduces the costs and increases the benefits of rent-seeking.

How do the checks and balance work in that system--regarding ACTA? How would ACTA be enforced?

Yeah... they signed the treaty, but it has yet to be ratified by the EU parliament, and individual EU countries also need to ratify it for it to come in effect in those countries. Right now things look like they may go either way, so much discussion has been raised about this thing that it may be the EU parliament refuses to ratify it. At least that's what I hope.

If ACTA were to become in effect, there would be no checks or balances. That's the very problem with these kinds of legislations. ACTA would create a new monitoring organ known as the ACTA committee, which would of course be in the pockets of those same corporations and corrupt politicians, and outside the influence of all democratically elected governments. The treaty would give this committee (a committee which would only get it's authority from the ACTA itself, and no members of it would be elected by democratic processes) full power to make ANY future amendments to the ACTA. That sounds scary as hell to me.

Natty, natty, natty. Obama clearly cares about the people of America because without ACTA hardly any creative content in film and music would be produced. Look at the rampant replication of such content! Clearly, the businesses, whose profits are harmed, are incapable of re-organizing their capital in order to secure profit through different means. The common good and common will are perfectly in sync with the hand of our glorious leader Obama.

Yes, clearly the music & movie industry is losing way too much money because of the rampant IP abuse going on... oh wait what, their profits are larger than ever? Well... at least... umm... hey, look at those pirates, stealing money from honest American workers! You don't support stealing, do you? Yeah, that's what I thought, now hand over your freedom of speech!

[ViperOverLord]

So your suggestion is to just do nothing?

i... what?

WTF?!

i genuinely don't understand what goes on during this process



you honestly need to seek help if this shit has been happening your entire life.