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Is there a god?

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Re: Is there a god?

Postby shieldgenerator7 on Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:03 pm

TL, DR?

READ IT. It's TOTALY worth it.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:02 am

shieldgenerator7 wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
shieldgenerator7 wrote:Yes, God exists. Questions?



Why are you so afraid of applying reason to your beliefs that you have to hide behind metaphorical shields? Is your god so fragile?


There is an old saying... never argue with a fool because he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.

My experience is that when you try to "apply reason" about your religion to others they often scoff at you and throw it in your face... assuming you're an overgrown stubborn gullible individual who can't think on your own.

While what you see is someone still struggling to hold on to beliefs that illogical, sad and terror striken that his only truths would be torn to shreds; what lies beneath that layer of skin and bones is a soul who still believes after coming to terms with the possibility that his religion is made of lies that were genuinely perceived as truths and were not an attempt at a clever deception. What the soul tries to broadcast about itself the hide blurs and mars the original intent of the message, and scrambles the actually state of the mind. Facial expressions mask the real emotions hidden beneath, rendering the task of reading one's true emotions a near impossible task. One cannot truly understand the walk of life of another, and can only guess and assume what it may be by what they say and do. The internet only serves to further blend the reality of one's self into the fiction which the viewer on the other side would like to see or thinks that they see.

This is why I don't debate my religion with other people, especially via the internet. It is too difficult for you to understand the direction from where I come, and likewise me to you. The debate would leave us both further struggling with our beliefs and both further scarred by one another, leaving a taste of hatred on each others' tongue. Distasteful. Furthermore, the entertainment value of posting one-liners heavily surpasses that of bantering back and forth uselessly wearing one's self out screaming at one another.

Besides the point, metaphorical shields? God, fragile? Nay, I say. It is not my God who is the fragile one, but myself. I am not versed in debatical matters and cannot hold my own properly in an argument. I, the insufficient gullible one, cannot stand the pressure of arguing with another. Thus, I require my shield, in order to have a chance of not breaking down into an emotional fit and suffering mental trauma. Do forgive me if my shield ever comes in between getting along with a fellow human being such as yourself. It is meant to bolster my self-confidence, not get in the way of making friends. So, I say, God is the strong One, who helps me, the weak, through my times of need. But I thank you for your understanding and your forgiveness, and I forgive you for your insults and your faults.

-SG7 ( :) )


Well , gee, I wasn't expecting that.
I was gonna make a post around the lines of "Science flies us to the moon, religion flies us into building", but fine, guess I'll have to give a honest response now.

1. If you really didn't want to debate, why are you posting in this thread? It seems to me that on some level you are interested in debate.

2. My ideal is to never grow attached enough to an idea or concept that I wouldn't discard it if presented with contradictory evidence and conversely, to hold no ideas or beliefs which I haven't analysed critically (i.e. which I could not defend in a debate). Don't you think this is a worthwhile goal?

3. I would say you shouldn't put yourself down so readily. There is unexpected strength hidden in all humans, you might not need God, or anyone else for that matter, as much as you think you do. Or maybe you do need them, but following on no. 2 at least analyse that belief rationally before you adopt it as truth. That is to say think about it, you don't necessarily have to debate it.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby daddy1gringo on Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:07 am

comic boy wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
pmchugh wrote:Question: Why does God essentially condemn billions of people to hell in non Christian countries?

[sigh] God doesn't. But we have free will.
and.. its not so simple at all as "born in a non-Christian country' = doomed to hell. I am several others have gone into this in other threads, but I don't care to go over it again now to please you.


No actually you and others have consistently avoided the point in other threads . Ones choices in life are massively influenced by geographical and social factors , if there is an afterlife then the main factor involved in getting there will be luck.
Ooo, ooo, I know!

Give me a little time. If I get it done in time, I'll just edit into this post.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:08 am

shieldgenerator7 wrote:So, I say, God is the strong One, who helps me, the weak, through my times of need.


It seems to me that a lot of religious rhetoric is based on ideas of guilt and weakness, ie. bad self-esteem.

You're guilty of sin, you're a horrible sinner, the things you want are wrong, your needs are sinful. You're flawed, broken, dirty, and you need this God™ to make yourself Pure again. To clean you up.

You're also weak. You can't do anything by yourself. You NEED God™, without God™ you're helpless... and so on.

It seems to me that religion gets to you by making you feel miserable and worthless, and then offering you something in return, something to comfort those feelings of worthlessness. It's eerily similar to how brainwashing works...

I believe you can't truly be yourself, you can't truly live your life to it's full potential until you find strength in yourself, and appreciate your self and your life as they are. The universe is beautiful, life is a magnificent experience that should not be wasted feeling bad about yourself. Take responsibility of your actions, take control of your life, and live it to the fullest.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby comic boy on Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:18 am

daddy1gringo wrote:
comic boy wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
pmchugh wrote:Question: Why does God essentially condemn billions of people to hell in non Christian countries?

[sigh] God doesn't. But we have free will.
and.. its not so simple at all as "born in a non-Christian country' = doomed to hell. I am several others have gone into this in other threads, but I don't care to go over it again now to please you.


No actually you and others have consistently avoided the point in other threads . Ones choices in life are massively influenced by geographical and social factors , if there is an afterlife then the main factor involved in getting there will be luck.
Ooo, ooo, I know!

Give me a little time. If I get it done in time, I'll just edit into this post.


Look forward to it Daddy , your responses have the merit of reason which I find helps :D
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby comic boy on Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:27 am

shieldgenerator7 wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
shieldgenerator7 wrote:Yes, God exists. Questions?



Why are you so afraid of applying reason to your beliefs that you have to hide behind metaphorical shields? Is your god so fragile?


There is an old saying... never argue with a fool because he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.

My experience is that when you try to "apply reason" about your religion to others they often scoff at you and throw it in your face... assuming you're an overgrown stubborn gullible individual who can't think on your own.

While what you see is someone still struggling to hold on to beliefs that illogical, sad and terror striken that his only truths would be torn to shreds; what lies beneath that layer of skin and bones is a soul who still believes after coming to terms with the possibility that his religion is made of lies that were genuinely perceived as truths and were not an attempt at a clever deception. What the soul tries to broadcast about itself the hide blurs and mars the original intent of the message, and scrambles the actually state of the mind. Facial expressions mask the real emotions hidden beneath, rendering the task of reading one's true emotions a near impossible task. One cannot truly understand the walk of life of another, and can only guess and assume what it may be by what they say and do. The internet only serves to further blend the reality of one's self into the fiction which the viewer on the other side would like to see or thinks that they see.

This is why I don't debate my religion with other people, especially via the internet. It is too difficult for you to understand the direction from where I come, and likewise me to you. The debate would leave us both further struggling with our beliefs and both further scarred by one another, leaving a taste of hatred on each others' tongue. Distasteful. Furthermore, the entertainment value of posting one-liners heavily surpasses that of bantering back and forth uselessly wearing one's self out screaming at one another.

Besides the point, metaphorical shields? God, fragile? Nay, I say. It is not my God who is the fragile one, but myself. I am not versed in debatical matters and cannot hold my own properly in an argument. I, the insufficient gullible one, cannot stand the pressure of arguing with another. Thus, I require my shield, in order to have a chance of not breaking down into an emotional fit and suffering mental trauma. Do forgive me if my shield ever comes in between getting along with a fellow human being such as yourself. It is meant to bolster my self-confidence, not get in the way of making friends. So, I say, God is the strong One, who helps me, the weak, through my times of need. But I thank you for your understanding and your forgiveness, and I forgive you for your insults and your faults.

-SG7 ( :) )


Nice cut 'n' paste , where did you get it from ;)
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby shieldgenerator7 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:06 pm

comic boy wrote:
shieldgenerator7 wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
shieldgenerator7 wrote:Yes, God exists. Questions?



Why are you so afraid of applying reason to your beliefs that you have to hide behind metaphorical shields? Is your god so fragile?


There is an old saying... never argue with a fool because he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.

My experience is that when you try to "apply reason" about your religion to others they often scoff at you and throw it in your face... assuming you're an overgrown stubborn gullible individual who can't think on your own.

While what you see is someone still struggling to hold on to beliefs that illogical, sad and terror striken that his only truths would be torn to shreds; what lies beneath that layer of skin and bones is a soul who still believes after coming to terms with the possibility that his religion is made of lies that were genuinely perceived as truths and were not an attempt at a clever deception. What the soul tries to broadcast about itself the hide blurs and mars the original intent of the message, and scrambles the actually state of the mind. Facial expressions mask the real emotions hidden beneath, rendering the task of reading one's true emotions a near impossible task. One cannot truly understand the walk of life of another, and can only guess and assume what it may be by what they say and do. The internet only serves to further blend the reality of one's self into the fiction which the viewer on the other side would like to see or thinks that they see.

This is why I don't debate my religion with other people, especially via the internet. It is too difficult for you to understand the direction from where I come, and likewise me to you. The debate would leave us both further struggling with our beliefs and both further scarred by one another, leaving a taste of hatred on each others' tongue. Distasteful. Furthermore, the entertainment value of posting one-liners heavily surpasses that of bantering back and forth uselessly wearing one's self out screaming at one another.

Besides the point, metaphorical shields? God, fragile? Nay, I say. It is not my God who is the fragile one, but myself. I am not versed in debatical matters and cannot hold my own properly in an argument. I, the insufficient gullible one, cannot stand the pressure of arguing with another. Thus, I require my shield, in order to have a chance of not breaking down into an emotional fit and suffering mental trauma. Do forgive me if my shield ever comes in between getting along with a fellow human being such as yourself. It is meant to bolster my self-confidence, not get in the way of making friends. So, I say, God is the strong One, who helps me, the weak, through my times of need. But I thank you for your understanding and your forgiveness, and I forgive you for your insults and your faults.

-SG7 ( :) )


Nice cut 'n' paste , where did you get it from ;)


I express my sincerest gratitude for your most kindest compliment.

-SG7 ( :) )
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to defeat all evil. -Ephesians 6 KJV

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Re: Is there a god?

Postby shieldgenerator7 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:19 pm

natty dread wrote:
shieldgenerator7 wrote:So, I say, God is the strong One, who helps me, the weak, through my times of need.


It seems to me that a lot of religious rhetoric is based on ideas of guilt and weakness, ie. bad self-esteem.

You're guilty of sin, you're a horrible sinner, the things you want are wrong, your needs are sinful. You're flawed, broken, dirty, and you need this God™ to make yourself Pure again. To clean you up.

You're also weak. You can't do anything by yourself. You NEED God™, without God™ you're helpless... and so on.

It seems to me that religion gets to you by making you feel miserable and worthless, and then offering you something in return, something to comfort those feelings of worthlessness. It's eerily similar to how brainwashing works...

I believe you can't truly be yourself, you can't truly live your life to it's full potential until you find strength in yourself, and appreciate your self and your life as they are. The universe is beautiful, life is a magnificent experience that should not be wasted feeling bad about yourself. Take responsibility of your actions, take control of your life, and live it to the fullest.


So it seems you are saying that I need to eject from my religion like a shuttle does its booster in order to reach my fullest potential? Well, I do say that I appreciate your concern and your advice, but I am afraid that you misunderstand my position. I did not intend that last paragraph to portray my religion as one that condones self-guilt and mockery but rather it was my best attempt at humbleness. As you might have guessed, I am not a very humble person. I'm awesome. I tell myself that often. But said once too many in front of others it can get to the point of further excessive humiliation when one falls-- and one always eventually falls. So believe me when I tell you that although I am guilty of sin, I do not fret upon it and mentally punish myself over it; afterall, Jesus died on the cross for our sins so our sins could be forgiven and we would no longer have to carry the heavy burden which is guilt. I do not worry myself of my imperfections, nor do I recommend doing it; although self-improvement is worth seeking.

It has come to my attention that I may have also misinterpreted your walk of life. Would you mind sharing it to your comfortable confidentiality?

-SG7 ( :) )
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to defeat all evil. -Ephesians 6 KJV

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Re: Is there a god?

Postby daddy1gringo on Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:28 pm

comic boy wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
pmchugh wrote:Question: Why does God essentially condemn billions of people to hell in non Christian countries?

[sigh] God doesn't. But we have free will.
and.. its not so simple at all as "born in a non-Christian country' = doomed to hell. I am several others have gone into this in other threads, but I don't care to go over it again now to please you.


No actually you and others have consistently avoided the point in other threads . Ones choices in life are massively influenced by geographical and social factors , if there is an afterlife then the main factor involved in getting there will be luck.

OK, here is what God says in his Word about those who have not heard. Romans 2: 11-16:
11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Now this passage talks about the Law, not the Gospel, but God’s principles are the same. With those who have not heard, He judges the heart, as only He can do. The cross is still necessary though. It is only by the blood of Jesus that righteousness is satisfied, so that God could forgive unconditionally and still be a righteous judge. Everyone who is saved, is saved because of the Cross of Jesus Christ, whether they know it or not.

Here’s my “judge” analogy illustrating that point. For those who have heard it or don’t have a problem with that point, skip it

show


So people can be saved who have not heard. Well how about people who have heard, but for whatever reason don’t have an equal chance of accepting it? I think of the old Jewish guy whose whole family was slaughtered in the death camps, and resolving "I was born a Jew and I’ll die a Jew" is the only thing that kept his spirit alive. It is very hard for such a one to accept Jesus Christ. Does that mean that some (or all) Jews will be saved because of that? It's not my place to say, but I like to think that God's mercy extends so far. Once again, though, anybody who is saved, is saved because of the Cross of Jesus Christ, whether he knows it or not. The Jew is not saved by being a good Jew as the native is not saved by how well he serves his idols. Neither is the Christian saved by how well he does "being a good Christian". It’s always by the grace (getting something good that you didn’t earn or deserve) of God.

What about the girl who was abused as a child and her self-esteem is so low that she doesn’t believe anybody, even God, could love her? What about the one who can’t accept God as “father” because the only “father” they ever knew is the one who raped them and beat their mother? Maybe while reciting Bible verses about obedience? If you think God doesn’t weep and have a special place in his heart for them, well, you don’t know him like I do.

So does that include everybody who “just can’t accept it” for whatever reason? Let’s look at this guy who the passage says “will be declared righteous”. For one thing, he acknowledges that there is a standard higher and better than himself to which he has to give account. Next, he recognizes that, although he tries, he doesn’t really live up to it, as it says: “…their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them”. In other words, he has no problem with being called a “sinner”. The natural reaction of this soul, all other things being equal, to hearing the message of our creator’s love for us and his free gift of forgiveness is joyful acceptance.

I had some related things to go into, but I guess I’ll save them for responses to the inevitable questions and challenges. Besides, otherwise I’ll never get this posted.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby shieldgenerator7 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:28 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
shieldgenerator7 wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
shieldgenerator7 wrote:Yes, God exists. Questions?



Why are you so afraid of applying reason to your beliefs that you have to hide behind metaphorical shields? Is your god so fragile?


There is an old saying... never argue with a fool because he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.

My experience is that when you try to "apply reason" about your religion to others they often scoff at you and throw it in your face... assuming you're an overgrown stubborn gullible individual who can't think on your own.

While what you see is someone still struggling to hold on to beliefs that illogical, sad and terror striken that his only truths would be torn to shreds; what lies beneath that layer of skin and bones is a soul who still believes after coming to terms with the possibility that his religion is made of lies that were genuinely perceived as truths and were not an attempt at a clever deception. What the soul tries to broadcast about itself the hide blurs and mars the original intent of the message, and scrambles the actually state of the mind. Facial expressions mask the real emotions hidden beneath, rendering the task of reading one's true emotions a near impossible task. One cannot truly understand the walk of life of another, and can only guess and assume what it may be by what they say and do. The internet only serves to further blend the reality of one's self into the fiction which the viewer on the other side would like to see or thinks that they see.

This is why I don't debate my religion with other people, especially via the internet. It is too difficult for you to understand the direction from where I come, and likewise me to you. The debate would leave us both further struggling with our beliefs and both further scarred by one another, leaving a taste of hatred on each others' tongue. Distasteful. Furthermore, the entertainment value of posting one-liners heavily surpasses that of bantering back and forth uselessly wearing one's self out screaming at one another.

Besides the point, metaphorical shields? God, fragile? Nay, I say. It is not my God who is the fragile one, but myself. I am not versed in debatical matters and cannot hold my own properly in an argument. I, the insufficient gullible one, cannot stand the pressure of arguing with another. Thus, I require my shield, in order to have a chance of not breaking down into an emotional fit and suffering mental trauma. Do forgive me if my shield ever comes in between getting along with a fellow human being such as yourself. It is meant to bolster my self-confidence, not get in the way of making friends. So, I say, God is the strong One, who helps me, the weak, through my times of need. But I thank you for your understanding and your forgiveness, and I forgive you for your insults and your faults.

-SG7 ( :) )


Well , gee, I wasn't expecting that.
I was gonna make a post around the lines of "Science flies us to the moon, religion flies us into building", but fine, guess I'll have to give a honest response now.

1. If you really didn't want to debate, why are you posting in this thread? It seems to me that on some level you are interested in debate.

2. My ideal is to never grow attached enough to an idea or concept that I wouldn't discard it if presented with contradictory evidence and conversely, to hold no ideas or beliefs which I haven't analysed critically (i.e. which I could not defend in a debate). Don't you think this is a worthwhile goal?

3. I would say you shouldn't put yourself down so readily. There is unexpected strength hidden in all humans, you might not need God, or anyone else for that matter, as much as you think you do. Or maybe you do need them, but following on no. 2 at least analyse that belief rationally before you adopt it as truth. That is to say think about it, you don't necessarily have to debate it.


1. Surely there are other reasons to post in a thread. I do not take the time to reason with myself about why to post in a particular thread; I just see a thread and post in it if I find the topic interesting.

2. This goal is worthwhile to an extent. It helps make progress: out with the old and in with the new. The thing is that several things that are not scientifically provable get thrown out with the trash and are overlooked. Not all that glitters is gold, and not all that is gold glitters. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and sometimes beauty is overlooked. What might not be valuable as scientific fact may be however valuable as cultural literature and moral backing. Not everything serves the same purpose, because if it did we would have uses for a lot less objects.

3. I have already addressed this in my respone to nattty_dread. Please refer to that text for my response to this point.

-SG7 ( :) )
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to defeat all evil. -Ephesians 6 KJV

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Re: Is there a god?

Postby shieldgenerator7 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:58 pm

daddy1gringo,

thanks for that post. I found that very helpful in explaining the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I really liked the analogy.

God's grace is one thing I'm struggling to grasp. Would it be that He punishes the ones who don't believe or would everyone regardless of what they did or said or believed all go to Heaven? I guess it's up to God to decide in the end, but I liked listening to your viewpoints and it's very uplifting to hear that.

-SG7 ( :) )
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to defeat all evil. -Ephesians 6 KJV

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Re: Is there a god?

Postby comic boy on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:04 pm

Thanks Daddy , I have some observations but will wait until tommorow to respond as I am currently full of beer :D
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby Aradhus on Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:06 pm

Captain's log, stardate 23412, still no evidence of god.

We have encountered some curious superstitous creatures on our travels. They're cute, but incredibly primitive, I don't expect they'll ever accomplish much or amount to anything. On the one hand they attribute the existence of the universe to this one super deity as being the only thing worthy of bringing something as marvelous as existence into being, while on the other hand bemoaning that existence sucks and is filled with too much 'evil' and daring to suggest that god bestows on them an even greater existence. Ungrateful fucks.

The criteria they've devised as necessary to recieve this greater existence seems absurdly arbitrary. I suspect this species might also have some sort of cognitive malfunction, possibly compromised by a parasite of some kind. I'll get bones to test their water supply. Uhura is looking extra tasty this week. hmm
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby lilwdlnddude on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:39 am

Watch and be informed of religion being false....maybe something might be up there thats greater than us but any religion nowadays is most definitely FALSE.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80RyHTIqN2U
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qudmli4wb7k&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuEv8M_Fc6Q&feature=related
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby b.k. barunt on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:04 am

lilwdlnddude wrote:Watch and be informed of religion being false....maybe something might be up there thats greater than us but any religion nowadays is most definitely FALSE.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80RyHTIqN2U
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qudmli4wb7k&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuEv8M_Fc6Q&feature=related


The parasitical, materialistic phenomenon known as the organized church is indeed false, but the truth is still in the Bible. The New Testament warns believers to beware of "wolves in sheep's clothing" who "will make merchandize of you". The organized church of Jesus' day were the ones who put Him to death and the religious hypocrites were the only ones that He spoke harshly to. He told them that they replaced the Word of God with man's traditions and they crucified Him. The same hypocrisy is here today and that's what's false. To have judged Judaism by the behavior of the Pharisees and Saducees would have indicated a superficial examination of such. To judge Christianity by the hypocrites in the limelight is at best a careless effort by those who would rather pass a quick judgement than to truly understand anything.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby pmchugh on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:25 pm

b.k. barunt wrote:
lilwdlnddude wrote:Watch and be informed of religion being false....maybe something might be up there thats greater than us but any religion nowadays is most definitely FALSE.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80RyHTIqN2U
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qudmli4wb7k&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuEv8M_Fc6Q&feature=related


The parasitical, materialistic phenomenon known as the organized church is indeed false, but the truth is still in the Bible. The New Testament warns believers to beware of "wolves in sheep's clothing" who "will make merchandize of you". The organized church of Jesus' day were the ones who put Him to death and the religious hypocrites were the only ones that He spoke harshly to. He told them that they replaced the Word of God with man's traditions and they crucified Him. The same hypocrisy is here today and that's what's false. To have judged Judaism by the behavior of the Pharisees and Saducees would have indicated a superficial examination of such. To judge Christianity by the hypocrites in the limelight is at best a careless effort by those who would rather pass a quick judgement than to truly understand anything.


OK lets judge it on the Bible.

It calls gay men an "abomination"
It advocates slavery.
It places men above woman.
It contradicts itself.
God sets she-bears after kids for making fun of bald people.
It is historically inaccurate.
It does not make any knowledgeable claims outside the bounds of what could be known by the writers, it talks of cattle a lot but never Kangaroos.
The God described in it is described as merciful yet is more merciless than anyone here.
It advocates the stoning to death of people for non-crimes such as adultery.
It is immoral in so many many ways.

The Church is better than the Bible.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby daddy1gringo on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:42 pm

One little caveat: on my post about the idea of people being condemned for not hearing, I was not attempting to prove any of it at this point, I was just clarifying the beliefs. I do have some things to say about reasons to believe, which is more the point of this thread in general, but I was just dealing with that particular objection there.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby b.k. barunt on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:53 pm

pmchugh wrote:
b.k. barunt wrote:
lilwdlnddude wrote:Watch and be informed of religion being false....maybe something might be up there thats greater than us but any religion nowadays is most definitely FALSE.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80RyHTIqN2U
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qudmli4wb7k&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuEv8M_Fc6Q&feature=related


The parasitical, materialistic phenomenon known as the organized church is indeed false, but the truth is still in the Bible. The New Testament warns believers to beware of "wolves in sheep's clothing" who "will make merchandize of you". The organized church of Jesus' day were the ones who put Him to death and the religious hypocrites were the only ones that He spoke harshly to. He told them that they replaced the Word of God with man's traditions and they crucified Him. The same hypocrisy is here today and that's what's false. To have judged Judaism by the behavior of the Pharisees and Saducees would have indicated a superficial examination of such. To judge Christianity by the hypocrites in the limelight is at best a careless effort by those who would rather pass a quick judgement than to truly understand anything.


OK lets judge it on the Bible.

It calls gay men an "abomination"
It advocates slavery.
It places men above woman.
It contradicts itself.
God sets she-bears after kids for making fun of bald people.
It is historically inaccurate.
It does not make any knowledgeable claims outside the bounds of what could be known by the writers, it talks of cattle a lot but never Kangaroos.
The God described in it is described as merciful yet is more merciless than anyone here.
It advocates the stoning to death of people for non-crimes such as adultery.
It is immoral in so many many ways.

The Church is better than the Bible.


So the Bible calls homosexuallity unnatural and abominable and you think it's cool - to suggest that this proves or disproves anything is absurd.

The Bible does not "advocate" slavery anywhere - it permitted it (as it also permitted divorce in the Old Testament) because of the hardness of men's hearts. However, slavery under Judaic law was more merciful and humane than in any other culture.

It places men "above" women in a system of authority. A woman has the same access to salvation and the same standing with God as a man however, unlike Islam.

"Contradicts"? I've debated this with hundreds of people and never had one show me any "contradictions" - always comes down to a matter of personal opinion, not fact. The same holds true of your allegations of "historical inaccuracy".

The two she-bears mauling the mob of kids sounds harsh doesn't it? If you think that's bad you should see what's in store for such unruly mockery at the Judgement Day.

Nothing "outside of what could be known by the writers"? Obviously you've never read it all. Btw, there were never any kangaroos in the Middle East, so why mention them?

God is merciful, but He is also as merciless as the white corpuscles in your bloodstream that attack harmful bacteria in such a mean and nasty way.

You deem adultery a non-crime? I'd rather be assaulted, battered and crippled physically than have the woman i love cheat on me.

"Immoral in so many ways"?? Maybe you should write your own Bible so that you can see how valuable and/or interesting your opinions are to others.

If the church claims to follow the Bible and fails miserably, how can it be "better"?
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby pmchugh on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:47 pm

b.k. barunt wrote:So the Bible calls homosexuallity unnatural and abominable and you think it's cool - to suggest that this proves or disproves anything is absurd.


I think it proves it is highly immoral, if you seen someone slandering a gay man with insults such as "unnatural" and "abominable" would you stand idly by?

b.k. barunt wrote:The Bible does not "advocate" slavery anywhere - it permitted it (as it also permitted divorce in the Old Testament) because of the hardness of men's hearts. However, slavery under Judaic law was more merciful and humane than in any other culture.


I love this argument, "oh oh oh but it was humane slavery. They weren't allowed to beat their slave to death! Don't you see?"

b.k. barunt wrote:It places men "above" women in a system of authority. A woman has the same access to salvation and the same standing with God as a man however, unlike Islam.


Care to explain how placing men "above" women in a system of authority isn't sexist and as a result immoral?

b.k. barunt wrote:"Contradicts"? I've debated this with hundreds of people and never had one show me any "contradictions" - always comes down to a matter of personal opinion, not fact.


This was discussed earlier I will go back into it if you wish. Here is where the answers stopped coming:
show


b.k. barunt wrote: The same holds true of your allegations of "historical inaccuracy".


There are many avenues I can go down here but the chances are you will throw the word allegory at me every time I present a situation as historically inaccurate.If we come to an agreement on what is allegory and what isn't then fine by me.

b.k. barunt wrote:The two she-bears mauling the mob of kids sounds harsh doesn't it? If you think that's bad you should see what's in store for such unruly mockery at the Judgement Day.


:lol: OK this is a troll right?

b.k. barunt wrote:Nothing "outside of what could be known by the writers"? Obviously you've never read it all. Btw, there were never any kangaroos in the Middle East, so why mention them?


Does the bible only apply to the middle east? I better call up the Christians down under and let them know.

b.k. barunt wrote:God is merciful, but He is also as merciless as the white corpuscles in your bloodstream that attack harmful bacteria in such a mean and nasty way.


Ah so I deserve to be tortured for all eternity for being born/created sinful, my bad.

b.k. barunt wrote:You deem adultery a non-crime? I'd rather be assaulted, battered and crippled physically than have the woman i love cheat on me.


If you set the law, would you make it a crime? And if so would the punishment be capital?

b.k. barunt wrote:"Immoral in so many ways"?? Maybe you should write your own Bible so that you can see how valuable and/or interesting your opinions are to others.


Any one of us could pick up the bible and improve it morally, scientifically and historically. In less than a minute.

b.k. barunt wrote:If the church claims to follow the Bible and fails miserably, how can it be "better"?


You answered this one yourself, it fails to follow the bible and in doing so becomes better than the bible.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby lilwdlnddude on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:53 pm

b.k. barunt wrote:
pmchugh wrote:
b.k. barunt wrote:
lilwdlnddude wrote:Watch and be informed of religion being false....maybe something might be up there thats greater than us but any religion nowadays is most definitely FALSE.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80RyHTIqN2U
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qudmli4wb7k&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuEv8M_Fc6Q&feature=related


The parasitical, materialistic phenomenon known as the organized church is indeed false, but the truth is still in the Bible. The New Testament warns believers to beware of "wolves in sheep's clothing" who "will make merchandize of you". The organized church of Jesus' day were the ones who put Him to death and the religious hypocrites were the only ones that He spoke harshly to. He told them that they replaced the Word of God with man's traditions and they crucified Him. The same hypocrisy is here today and that's what's false. To have judged Judaism by the behavior of the Pharisees and Saducees would have indicated a superficial examination of such. To judge Christianity by the hypocrites in the limelight is at best a careless effort by those who would rather pass a quick judgement than to truly understand anything.


OK lets judge it on the Bible.

It calls gay men an "abomination"
It advocates slavery.
It places men above woman.
It contradicts itself.
God sets she-bears after kids for making fun of bald people.
It is historically inaccurate.
It does not make any knowledgeable claims outside the bounds of what could be known by the writers, it talks of cattle a lot but never Kangaroos.
The God described in it is described as merciful yet is more merciless than anyone here.
It advocates the stoning to death of people for non-crimes such as adultery.
It is immoral in so many many ways.

The Church is better than the Bible.


So the Bible calls homosexuallity unnatural and abominable and you think it's cool - to suggest that this proves or disproves anything is absurd.

The Bible does not "advocate" slavery anywhere - it permitted it (as it also permitted divorce in the Old Testament) because of the hardness of men's hearts. However, slavery under Judaic law was more merciful and humane than in any other culture.

It places men "above" women in a system of authority. A woman has the same access to salvation and the same standing with God as a man however, unlike Islam.

"Contradicts"? I've debated this with hundreds of people and never had one show me any "contradictions" - always comes down to a matter of personal opinion, not fact. The same holds true of your allegations of "historical inaccuracy".

The two she-bears mauling the mob of kids sounds harsh doesn't it? If you think that's bad you should see what's in store for such unruly mockery at the Judgement Day.

Nothing "outside of what could be known by the writers"? Obviously you've never read it all. Btw, there were never any kangaroos in the Middle East, so why mention them?

God is merciful, but He is also as merciless as the white corpuscles in your bloodstream that attack harmful bacteria in such a mean and nasty way.

You deem adultery a non-crime? I'd rather be assaulted, battered and crippled physically than have the woman i love cheat on me.

"Immoral in so many ways"?? Maybe you should write your own Bible so that you can see how valuable and/or interesting your opinions are to others.

If the church claims to follow the Bible and fails miserably, how can it be "better"?

You didnt even watch the videos i posted to you did you? They prove that jesus is in fact a myth and therefore the bible as well. the whole religion is a fake and i can then draw from that evidence that the "almighty god" is a fake as well. Please watch the videos before you respond once again...sigh....they are like 10 minutes max i believe and are not a guy sitting there listing reasons off a note pad or something. It's an informational video with NOTHING BUT FACTS that disprove everything...
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:12 pm

b.k. barunt wrote:It places men "above" women in a system of authority. A woman has the same access to salvation and the same standing with God as a man however, unlike Islam.


Oh yeah, women have to be treated as inferior to men while they are alive, but at least they get the same job opportunities in imaginary-land. Well that makes it all better then!

The two she-bears mauling the mob of kids sounds harsh doesn't it? If you think that's bad you should see what's in store for such unruly mockery at the Judgement Day.


So you think it's morally acceptable and just for children to be horribly tortured to death because they mock someone?

Wow, you christians are so moral and compassionate.

God is merciful, but He is also as merciless as the white corpuscles in your bloodstream that attack harmful bacteria in such a mean and nasty way.


Have fun being a bacteria.

You deem adultery a non-crime? I'd rather be assaulted, battered and crippled physically than have the woman i love cheat on me.


By "love" you mean "own", right?

Just kidding btw. But I really can't understand why you'd want to punish someone you love for... what, falling out of love with you? That happens you know. People can't help their feelings.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby daddy1gringo on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:17 pm

pmchugh wrote:
OK lets judge it on the Bible.

It calls gay men an "abomination"
So your irrefutable proof that the Bible is bad is that it doesn’t agree with you on this issue. Well, I’m sold.
It advocates the stoning to death of people for non-crimes such as adultery.
See above.
It advocates slavery.
<sigh> We’ve been over and over this. Summary: OT: The Bible didn’t invent slavery, it was an institution in that part of the world at that point in history and the human race wasn’t ready to live without it yet. Slavery in the ancient world was not the same as that in the U.S. South in the 19th century. It was something one did if too deep in debt and in general, such “slaves” had certain rights and the ability to buy their freedom. Among the Jews these slaves were to be released every 7 years on the Sabbath year. The other type of slaves in the ancient world were captives of war from other countries, and even for these, the Law of Moses introduced limits on how they were treated and the SEEDS of the idea that all men are equal before God. NT: Christians weren’t in charge of practices in the Roman Empire. Even more than in the OT, owners of slaves were warned about how they treated them “… knowing that you too have a Master in heaven.”(Colossians 4:1)

The Bible freed the slaves. Abolitionism was a Christian movement, born out of the Second Great Awakening, preached from pulpits. William Wilberforce, the man responsible for the abolition of slavery in Britain, and his backers, were acting on their Biblical convictions. The Union soldiers marched into the war that ended slavery in the U.S. to the strains of “Mine eyes have seen the Glory of the coming of the Lord…as He died to make men holy let us die to make men free.” (It’s possible that if we demanded separation of church and state, that people not act on their religious beliefs in public office, in the 19th century, we would still have slavery.)
It places men above woman.
Once again, the Law gave women so much more respect and rights, compared to the surrounding societies where they really were just cattle. Once again, it was as much as the human race was ready for at that time and place, but the seeds were planted for equality when we were ready for it. Once again, by the time we get to the New Testament the teaching is: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”(Galatians 3:27) Once again, the women’s suffrage movement was a child of the Second Great Awakening.
It does not make any knowledgeable claims outside the bounds of what could be known by the writers, it talks of cattle a lot but never Kangaroos.
Bible refuted by failure to mention kangaroos. O, Kaaaaay. First of all, that’s not its purpose. Nevertheless, I have seen long lists of just such things in the Bible. The ones that come to mind off the top of my head are the existence of mountains and fresh water springs on the ocean floor, the water cycle, and while the Greeks thought the earth rested on Atlas’ shoulders, and the Hindus on 4 elephants on the back of a giant turtle, the oldest book in the Bible tells us “He… hangs the earth on nothing. (Job 26:7). I’m sure we could debate them all, but honestly, that you think this is some kind of strong and clear point shows real closed mindedness.
God sets she-bears after kids for making fun of bald people.
You’re joking, right? (and no, I don't mean that I don't know where this story is in the Bible, I just mean, "You're joking, right?")
The God described in it is described as merciful yet is more merciless than anyone here.
It is historically inaccurate.
It contradicts itself.
It is immoral in so many many ways.
These are all unsupported opinions and generalizations. Once again, that you think these are some kind of proofs, please, go back to school.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:33 pm

I know better than to get in a bible debate with b.k. and daddy1gringo, just wanted to say it was interesting that you defend against the assertion that the bible promotes slavery and the inferiority of women, but chalk up the gays and adultery to "difference of opinion".

I'm willing to bet that after a couple more decades of social progress those passages will also be qualified like the ones about slavery are today.

Also, of course lack of kangaroos doesn't disprove anything, but I've got to say, it would have been a very nice move if Jesus had said at some point "And thus i speak onto you, energy is mass times the speed of light to the power of itself".
Sure they wouldn't have made much sense of it, would have come really in handy about now though. I suppose it would have kind of interfered with the faith thing though.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby pmchugh on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:42 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:
pmchugh wrote:
OK lets judge it on the Bible.

It calls gay men an "abomination"
So your irrefutable proof that the Bible is bad is that it doesn’t agree with you on this issue. Well, I’m sold.


This is one point among many and if you disagree with it, you show how immoral and sick you and your religion is. If you said this to a gay man in front of me, I would drag you into my basement keep you there and torture you for as long as I possibly could. Oh no wait, no I wouldn't.

It advocates the stoning to death of people for non-crimes such as adultery.
See above.


See above, except replace "if said this to a gay man" with, "if you tried to stone your wife to death".

It advocates slavery.
<sigh> We’ve been over and over this. Summary: OT: The Bible didn’t invent slavery, it was an institution in that part of the world at that point in history and the human race wasn’t ready to live without it yet. Slavery in the ancient world was not the same as that in the U.S. South in the 19th century. It was something one did if too deep in debt and in general, such “slaves” had certain rights and the ability to buy their freedom. Among the Jews these slaves were to be released every 7 years on the Sabbath year. The other type of slaves in the ancient world were captives of war from other countries, and even for these, the Law of Moses introduced limits on how they were treated and the SEEDS of the idea that all men are equal before God. NT: Christians weren’t in charge of practices in the Roman Empire. Even more than in the OT, owners of slaves were warned about how they treated them “… knowing that you too have a Master in heaven.”(Colossians 4:1)


I thought Gods truths were eternal? How do you know that I amn't correct about the points above but that you are just not "ready to live without" bigotry?

It places men above woman.
Once again, the Law gave women so much more respect and rights, compared to the surrounding societies where they really were just cattle. Once again, it was as much as the human race was ready for at that time and place, but the seeds were planted for equality when we were ready for it. Once again, by the time we get to the New Testament the teaching is: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”(Galatians 3:27) Once again, the women’s suffrage movement was a child of the Second Great Awakening.


Why does God lie? Why doesn't he just come out and say the "eternal" truth in the beginning and give us the CHOICE as to whether we follow it or not, what happened to our goddam free will, and his goddam honesty?

It does not make any knowledgeable claims outside the bounds of what could be known by the writers, it talks of cattle a lot but never Kangaroos.
Bible refuted by failure to mention kangaroos. O, Kaaaaay. First of all, that’s not its purpose. Nevertheless, I have seen long lists of just such things in the Bible. The ones that come to mind off the top of my head are the existence of mountains and fresh water springs on the ocean floor, the water cycle, and while the Greeks thought the earth rested on Atlas’ shoulders, and the Hindus on 4 elephants on the back of a giant turtle, the oldest book in the Bible tells us “He… hangs the earth on nothing. (Job 26:7). I’m sure we could debate them all, but honestly, that you think this is some kind of strong and clear point shows real closed mindedness.


The Bible also refers to the four corners of the earth.. oh oh but that is allegory! I will concede this one none the less as it doesn't show the Bible is wrong, only that it is not particularly special.

God sets she-bears after kids for making fun of bald people.
You’re joking, right? (and no, I don't mean that I don't know where this story is in the Bible, I just mean, "You're joking, right?")


Yes I am joking and Christianity is the subject of that joke.

The God described in it is described as merciful yet is more merciless than anyone here.
It is historically inaccurate.
It contradicts itself.
It is immoral in so many many ways.
These are all unsupported opinions and generalizations. Once again, that you think these are some kind of proofs, please, go back to school.


No need to be insulting. That isn't very "Christian" like. Also I will gladly provide proof for any of those which you desire. (though if you choose historical accuracy, then we have the allegory problem again)
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby b.k. barunt on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:05 pm

lilwdlnddude wrote:You didnt even watch the videos i posted to you did you? They prove that jesus is in fact a myth and therefore the bible as well. the whole religion is a fake and i can then draw from that evidence that the "almighty god" is a fake as well. Please watch the videos before you respond once again...sigh....they are like 10 minutes max i believe and are not a guy sitting there listing reasons off a note pad or something. It's an informational video with NOTHING BUT FACTS that disprove everything...


I watched the first one and didn't bother to reply to it. If you accept this utube video as conclusive proof that Jesus was a myth then you're obviously easily impressed. It's a simple rehash of an old argument that "proves" nothing. The myth of Horus, Isis and Osiris was a carryover from the Sumerian myth of Tammuz, Semiramis and Nimrod. According to the myth Tammuz/Horus was not born of a virgin as the utube movie asserts; also most scholars hold that the star in the east and the magi part was added after Christ. Like i said, you're easily impressed.

December 25th actually was the celebrated birthday of Horus/Tammuz. The New Testament account of Jesus birth had shepherds watching their flocks by night out in the open fields - no way this would have happened in the winter. Sheep were kept in a sheepcote at night during the winter months in Palestine. The "Christian" tradition of celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25th originated with Constantine when he amalgamated Roman Paganism and Christianity, creating a new national religion which became the Roman Catholic Church. Pagans had to convert to this religion in which they could still celebrate their popular holy days, but in honor of different Gods. Saturnalia became Christmas and the pagan feast of Ishtar became "Easter" (Ishtar was the fertility goddess - wear do you think the rabbits and the "Easter eggs" came from?)

The utube movie was like i said a simple rehash of an old argument with a few points added and taken out of context by the producer to make it seem more absolute "proof"wise. And no, after that farce i didn't bother with the other two movies. If there are points in them you'd like to discuss i'd be happy to do so, but do your own research and don't use utube as some kind of modern day Oracle of Delphi.
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