Power Role Draft Mafia - Town Wins!

[everywhere116]

Jeeze, their both good cases. Pmc, good job, you've exonerated yourself. For now. I too thought ghostly was being more quiet and clueless than usual.

But yeah, oscillating your position faster than a gamma ray is pretty bad. Unvote Vote Shield

[edocsil]

oh, oh well. Freezie my guess is the same as yours. I also saw that and thought Ragian was the doublevoter. In following your lead, VOTE RAGIAN

Ragian, if you really are the doublevoter, revote me so I know it's you. DOublevoter, if you're not Ragian, put your secret vote on freezie.

FASTPOSTED
*now to read pmc's post

-SG7 ( )

Waffeling is bad, that idea blows as it is naught but WIFOM. I am going to FoS Shield for this. That being said, a move like this is sadly in line with character.

I would go with PMCs case over a RL. My support is there, but I will wait for a vote until I see how the next day or so plays out.

[Rodion]

Vote count

1. everywhere116
2. ghostly447 - pmchugh
3. Some7hingCLEVER - MoB Deadly
4. pmchugh - nagerous, edocsil
5. edocsil
6. nagerous
7. dazza2008 - ???
8. Ragian - shieldgenerator7
9. Djfireside
10. spiesr
11. MoB Deadly
12. soundman - Djfireside
13. alt1978
14. shieldgenerator7 - soundman, spiesr, freezie, everywhere116 (L-4)
15. freezie

Not voting: ghostly447, Some7hingCLEVER, dazza2008, Ragian, alt1978

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline in about 6 days.

[soundman]

Really SG7? You say you want to protect the doublevoter from both the mafia AND the town. Then as soon as someone else comes up with the same guess as you, you go against everything you just said and vote him! What kind of logic is that?

[dazza2008]

Vote SG7 for the same reasons as above.

Good case PMC .

I would go with that if SG7 never jumped around being all scummy as you posted it.

[pmchugh]

Well I am not sure how to read sg7 tbh, he has contributed a fair amount of waffle to the game anyway.

People are pressuring you because what you said does not make any sense. Can you explain how you went from this:

I don't want to say who I think it is becuase I don't want him to be targeted. Anyways, it would only be a guess, so I don't want to put pressure on him unnecessarily.

Anyway, sothis double voter looks townish. He isn't trying to cause commotion by his vote, he just wants to make his presence known. It leads me to believe he must be town, but we'll have to get more evidence to know for sure.

To this:

oh, oh well. Freezie my guess is the same as yours. I also saw that and thought Ragian was the doublevoter. In following your lead, VOTE RAGIAN

Your stated reason:

since you already outed him as possible doublevoter I can no longer could help him. SO I voted. Plus your argument was convincing.

So because you could no longer protect someone you thought was townie, you voted him?

I still prefer the ghostly lynch but you are looking pretty suspicious right now.

[ghostly447]

PMC, that is a decent case. But while I was reading I couldnt help but say to myself "Half of this is completely the opposite of what I was thinking when following through with my actions". I will defend, because it is worth the time, but FOS PMC because no case has ever before gotten my attention like that in that it was 180 degrees the other direction.

[shieldgenerator7]

Well I am not sure how to read sg7 tbh, he has contributed a fair amount of waffle to the game anyway.

People are pressuring you because what you said does not make any sense. Can you explain how you went from this:

I don't want to say who I think it is becuase I don't want him to be targeted. Anyways, it would only be a guess, so I don't want to put pressure on him unnecessarily.

Anyway, sothis double voter looks townish. He isn't trying to cause commotion by his vote, he just wants to make his presence known. It leads me to believe he must be town, but we'll have to get more evidence to know for sure.

To this:

oh, oh well. Freezie my guess is the same as yours. I also saw that and thought Ragian was the doublevoter. In following your lead, VOTE RAGIAN

Your stated reason:

since you already outed him as possible doublevoter I can no longer could help him. SO I voted. Plus your argument was convincing.

So because you could no longer protect someone you thought was townie, you voted him?

I still prefer the ghostly lynch but you are looking pretty suspicious right now.

Thank you PMC for actually making a case against me that I could defend.

Now that you state it that way, it does make it look like my actions don't make sense. Let me explain what I was thinking during this time:
When I saw Ragian's post about the doublevoter, I noticed the vote was on Ragian and Ragian first posted about it. THat made me think, "Ragian must be the doublevoter!" So I wanted to tell town I had a guess of who the doublevoter was, but I didn't want to say it was Ragian because then he might get pressuredby the town to claim or he could go up on the mafia targetlist because he was a known townie (by "known" I mean mafia knows what role he has). And also, if it came down to a DV counterclaim and Ragian was the one being CC'd or was CC'ing then I could put my two cents in and say, "I belive Ragian! Lynch the other one!" But now he's exposed and no mafia would be dumb enough to claim doublevoter.
And then after a little questioning of me and me stating my reasons for not saying who yet, freezie just came out, took my guess, and voted Ragian, hoping to find a possible mafia doublevoter. So I thought, shoot, the mystery I might have been able to use later on in the game is gone, and what I was hoping to do/prevent with not revealing him is also gone/done. So freezie voted for Ragian because (s?)he was worried about a possible mafia DV. Thinking this was valid concern, I tossed my vote out there to test Ragian to see if he would claim DV. So far, he hasn't, so it's still not for sure if he is or not, but it looks like he might be. Although I thought he was townie, I can't tell for sure and pressuring seemed to be the only way to know for sure.

I might of missed a few things there but I think I've covered everything.

-SG7 ( )

[ghostly447]

Fastposted by SG7 (PS, had to take off your beginning quotes because of number of quotes within each other.)

And the winner is....

ghostly!

I find it odd that while a lot of the big arguments of the day were going on he was active and posting but said nothing about them. On the freezie wagon.. nothing, on mass claim.. nothing, on the clever lynch... nothing. All until one post well after the events had happened. Lets look at that post now:
So because I dont join in a useless BW, you suspect that I am not doing much? On the mass claim situation, I can go back and get my post, but I CLEARLY STATED that actually, I did not think it was a good idea because it seemed it would benefit the mafia more. Your quote below is completely useless in my mind, what are you trying to prove? I once again reiterated that L-3 is NOT scummy because not even a double voter could do anything about that.

I will actually come to Clevers somewhat a rescue here. L-3 is not normally something I feel is scummy, and nor is the fact that he jumped off and your reasoning for it. If he were mafia, he would have stayed put and hoped for someone else to be the target of suspicion, or at least held on long enough to drop off undetected (IE Freezie claiming a good town role and him not wanting to lynch that role).

So therefore, I think that the case you brought against him has ill logic and could easily just be worded correctly to make him sound like scum. Though he is not very new (been in several games already) I do not think he has learned very fast as to how to cover his tracks when he is scum (I got him lynched in 2 games this past few days by him getting mixed up in what he said, etc.).

So therefore, you can continue to pressure him with this, but I probably will not be behind your case, rather defending him until he slips up like he tends to do when he is mafia.


As for the PMC case you brought up, I do not think it is particularly scummy that he brought up a mass claim (except for I cant really see any use in it) but probably at least one person on the freezie wagon was scum. It would surprise me if there wasnt at least one on the wagon. But until he slips up more, maybe under applied pressure, I do not feel comfortable taking sides on this case.

So what were his opinions?

Clever - against lynch - agrees with current town majority now that it seems unlikely he will be lynched.
On mass claim- against mass claim but doesnt commit to me being scummy for it- agrees with town majority.
Freezue wagon - was suspicious probably one scum on there - agrees with consensus
I never even got on Clever. So the fact you want to imply that I was ever for lynching him is ridiculous. On a mass claim, I stated it twice that I thought it was not a good way of searching for mafia, and that it would ruin the game. Therefore, not only is this a clear contradicting case against my own opinion, but it also, in my mind, implies that I have my eye on you anyways. As for the freezie wagon, by not voting in the first place, I implied that I thought that it was useless. On top of that, I also know that 95% of the time that at least 1 scum will be involved in the lynching, or pressuring, of EVERY SINGLE BANDWAGON until it gets to a point they cant risk exposing themselves (IE 1 mafia, 7 players, wont go in for the kill unless they can gather hard evidence).

So what is so bad with agreeing with the majority of the town? It's because he did it after the fact despite being active at the time of the incidents. This makes him look very townie if you see his post but removes himself from dangerous commitments before anyone has said anything. In the entire thread he has cast suspicion on very few people and when he did his motives seem unclear.
So let me get this straight. I agree with the majority after the cases? I do? Oh yes, yes I do in writing, but do not try to tell me you dont have a thought of who may be mafia and jsut arent posting it yet because you need more evidence. It is something that EVERYONE can be accused of (holding thoughts until it is clear that is). This is where your case becomes crap and begins turning into "how much can I throw on top of this case to make him sound scummy for the lynch?"

Well I am not so quick to let things slide as most know. Nag, mind explaining why you are not so familiar with D1 randomness, etc? From what I hear you are basically a god at mafia so I find it hard to believe that you would forget your old tips and tricks.

This is his first time you appeared to suspect anyone and funnily enough its just OMGUS.
It is OMGUS? Strike Wolf, in my first game, said that him (and I believe you) were like Gods at this game. So, WHY IS HE NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOKE VOTING? He was trying to call me scummy for a joke vote. How about you start looking into that, because you seemed to have skipped over it. What does this quot ehave to do with anything? It is completely contradicting your case of "Ghostly is just agreeing with others which makes him look townie". Congratulations for tearing it wide open with a contraditory post.

Just caught up. I had a busy weekend.

I also found the reason of Ghostly's joke vote a bit odd. I do realise it was a joke vote but to say it is because they are a good player seems pretty scummy to me.

Anyway I will unvote. Seems we have moved out of the joke stage.

I have been in other games where people say "Speedlynch 'insert amazing players name here' GOGOGO" And there is nothing but joke voting after.

FOS Dazza for looking far to deep into just another Joke Vote.

Unvote joke voting has been over awhile. Though due to Dazza and Nag's reaction Im not sure if I should try to dig up a case on them or not.

So because it is joke vote stage I should ignore the words you use? You said something that in my opinion sounded scummy. I never voted you or even FOSed I just noted it and will keep an eye on you.

So then when someone in other games says "Speedlynch this person GOGOGO" I see you tracking them at all times? NO. You are trying to give false pretenses to give you permission to suspect me of being mafia. And therefore my vote stands.

What vote?

The vote I could have sworn I put on you Dazza but will not bother with now..lol

This is a strange exchange, ghostly OMGUSs for the second time but then backs away quickly. It seems to be he wants to redirect the attention onto dazza and doesn't really believe in his own "vote".
I clearly stated that I was backing off. Again, helping my case because it shows I tried to lead somewhat of an FOS. On top of this, I clearly stated exactly why I FOSed Dazza and Nag. Because of their reaction to my joke vote. My joke vote said "vote nag because I have never player with you, and hear you are good.". They flipped out asking why I would try to head a lynch on a good player. When Dazza, I am pretty sure, has been in the same games as me when someone said "Speedlynch insertnamehere GOGOGO" and you didnt react AT ALL. So an experienced player can suggest a speedlynch in joke voting, but newer players cant joke vote for a good player they have never played with before? Either this group has some issues about who can do what, or you are mafia and finally reacting to a joke vote and trying to make a case of it.

What kind of idiot pick 7? I did! lol. And I got my second pick!

This is a bit of a weak point but it seems suspicious to me that the 14th drafted got their second pick, it seems you have a very different view of what is useful to the rest of the town.

As far as I am aware ghostly isn't that new of a player but he repeatedly acts like an air head, sorry if this is genuine but you seem to have gone a bit OTT with it.
Are you telling me that just because I do not know how power roles should rank in my mind compared to everyone elses, I am mafia? I am sorry that I am not as experienced as some and therefore pick my roles different than others. Experience has to do with picks, not just whether someone is mafia or not. Please do not try to tell anyone otherwise.

I think I read that they could see who got the top roles, but could someone confirm the pmc didnt just now give us a hint of what the scum can see?

FOS ghostly. You should be able to clearly tell that we can all make educated guesses as to who got the best roles. Those at the top of the list, available to all.

Never played a game like this, I am still confused. sorry.

Guys I am a bit confused. What do you mean by "The top 5 players"? Lol. I feel stupid for asking.

Oh my god I need to remember this isnt the same setup. unvote. I am still getting confused every post.

So my main point is that he has been around but not offering much until we have decided things. He saw the wagon on freezie but said nothing until a few pages ago, we started talking about mass claims on page 5 he didn't mention them until a few pages ago. Yet he was around and freely able to OMGUS. He isn't interested in finding mafia, he is interested in protecting himself.
Again, I saw the wagon. I didnt jump on because I clearly didnt think it was worth the BW it got. My life is just as busy as anyone elses. I gave input on the mass/partial claim, and didnt like the idea of it which reasons I clearly stated above. I am glad you can decide my mind for me, but I am interested in finding mafia. In fact, I have given 3 fos's. You, Dazza, and Nag. So, you clearly stated contradicting in what has actually happened.

unvote vote ghostly

fastposted by freezie, I came to the conclusion Ragian was probably double voter as well. I didn't want to go down the route you just did as it makes it very hard to defend himself without claiming but it is a valid point.

Fastposted by SG7 (PS, had to take off your beginning quotes because of number of quotes within each other.)

[shieldgenerator7]

@MOD, I don't think ghostly meant to vote himself at the end of his last post

[ghostly447]

@MOD, I don't think ghostly meant to vote himself at the end of his last post

I did not. thank you very much for that catch. It was part of his quote.

[Ragian]

Vote count

8. Ragian - ???

So we do have a secret voter.

How quick to realise it. I think he may be that double voter, and used his power and that post to possibly clear his name.


As far as I am concerned, I will Unvote Vote: Ragian just for the safety case of a possible mafia double voter. And FoS: SG7

I may be wrong. But, I also may be right.

Your vote on me is just because I realised I had ??? next to my name? You could've just asked and then made up your mind.

Vote count
7. dazza2008 - ???

Now it's shifted (I hope I'm not the first to realise since being quick earns you some votes). I am not the double voter though. Someone wanted the double voter to vote for Freezie (I think) in order to say that it wasn't me. Now it's on dazza, so either the double voter tries to incriminate me or he/she (are any women playing?) is bad at names.

[shieldgenerator7]

UNVTOE all this and Ragian isn't even the doublevoter. Ok, so my guess was wrong.

[pmchugh]

Ghostly it seems like you completely misunderstood the points I was making against you.

Let me restate.

On mass claims:

On the mass claim situation, I can go back and get my post, but I CLEARLY STATED that actually, I did not think it was a good idea because it seemed it would benefit the mafia more.

On a mass claim, I stated it twice that I thought it was not a good way of searching for mafia, and that it would ruin the game.

I don't see any posts prior to the one I quoted maybe I missed one but I checked again and still saw nothing.

The first time you posted an opinion on mass claim was on page 17 on the 10th of March. The first time it was mentioned was page 5 and the 1st of March. Did it really take you 12 pages and 9 days to form an opinion with saying?

On The freezie wagon:

So because I dont join in a useless BW, you suspect that I am not doing much?

It's not because you didn't join it, it is because you didn't state an opinion on it at the time but happened to agree with the town 7 days and 8 pages after the last vote went on the BW.

As for the freezie wagon, by not voting in the first place, I implied that I thought that it was useless. On top of that, I also know that 95% of the time that at least 1 scum will be involved in the lynching, or pressuring, of EVERY SINGLE BANDWAGON until it gets to a point they cant risk exposing themselves (IE 1 mafia, 7 players, wont go in for the kill unless they can gather hard evidence).

Again, not saying you should have been on it. I am saying.. why did you not talk about this when it was actually relevant? Why weren't you saying one of us should be mafia round about when freezie replied? Would it not be better to apply pressure and see which of us react?

On Clever:

I never even got on Clever. So the fact you want to imply that I was ever for lynching him is ridiculous.

I never said you wanted him lynched, I said you waited to see how the main bulk of the town would react. This post was 7 days and 6 pages after freezie first voted him. And in this time at least; me, nag, spesir, dazza, shield, raigan and clever himself all posted along the same lines you eventually did.

On OMGUS and the fos's you have given:

Again, I saw the wagon. I didnt jump on because I clearly didnt think it was worth the BW it got. My life is just as busy as anyone elses. I gave input on the mass/partial claim, and didnt like the idea of it which reasons I clearly stated above. I am glad you can decide my mind for me, but I am interested in finding mafia. In fact, I have given 3 fos's. You, Dazza, and Nag. So, you clearly stated contradicting in what has actually happened.

Whether you provided good reasons or not it remains that the only significant opinions you have offered at a relevant time are all fos's at people who were voting you, excluding me. But I don't really think you can say that you did fos me, not until now at least (omgus lol).

As for the PMC case you brought up, I do not think it is particularly scummy that he brought up a mass claim (except for I cant really see any use in it) but probably at least one person on the freezie wagon was scum. It would surprise me if there wasnt at least one on the wagon. But until he slips up more, maybe under applied pressure, I do not feel comfortable taking sides on this case.

You actually confirm my opinion of you here. You are too scared to take sides at all. The only times you have taken sides are against those who have accused you, or where it is several days after a consensus has been reached. Obviously I don't expect you to reveal all your cards straight away but you have definitely appeared very cautious and that is certainly not something I would normally associate with you.

[ghostly447]

I will read this now but have to reply at home.

[everywhere116]

I will read this now but have to reply at home.

*tick* *tock* *tick* tock*

[Some7hingCLEVER]

UNVTOE all this and Ragian isn't even the doublevoter. Ok, so my guess was wrong.

how can you be so sure he isn't

[pmchugh]

Thank you PMC for actually making a case against me that I could defend.

Now that you state it that way, it does make it look like my actions don't make sense. Let me explain what I was thinking during this time:
When I saw Ragian's post about the doublevoter, I noticed the vote was on Ragian and Ragian first posted about it. THat made me think, "Ragian must be the doublevoter!" So I wanted to tell town I had a guess of who the doublevoter was, but I didn't want to say it was Ragian because then he might get pressuredby the town to claim or he could go up on the mafia targetlist because he was a known townie (by "known" I mean mafia knows what role he has). And also, if it came down to a DV counterclaim and Ragian was the one being CC'd or was CC'ing then I could put my two cents in and say, "I belive Ragian! Lynch the other one!" But now he's exposed and no mafia would be dumb enough to claim doublevoter.
And then after a little questioning of me and me stating my reasons for not saying who yet, freezie just came out, took my guess, and voted Ragian, hoping to find a possible mafia doublevoter. So I thought, shoot, the mystery I might have been able to use later on in the game is gone, and what I was hoping to do/prevent with not revealing him is also gone/done. So freezie voted for Ragian because (s?)he was worried about a possible mafia DV. Thinking this was valid concern, I tossed my vote out there to test Ragian to see if he would claim DV. So far, he hasn't, so it's still not for sure if he is or not, but it looks like he might be. Although I thought he was townie, I can't tell for sure and pressuring seemed to be the only way to know for sure.

I might of missed a few things there but I think I've covered everything.

-SG7 ( )

So do you think the double voter is likely mafia?

[Some7hingCLEVER]

Well its not sure who the double voter would be
But just cause its not the first guy we suspect doesn't mean the double voter is mafia

[spiesr]

UNVTOE all this and Ragian isn't even the doublevoter. Ok, so my guess was wrong.

how can you be so sure he isn't

Well, this right here is a big hint.

Now it's shifted (I hope I'm not the first to realise since being quick earns you some votes). I am not the double voter though. Someone wanted the double voter to vote for Freezie (I think) in order to say that it wasn't me. Now it's on dazza, so either the double voter tries to incriminate me or he/she (are any women playing?) is bad at names.

He could be lying, but I don't know why he would. At this point in time we have no particular reason to suspect the double voter to be any more likely to be mafia aligned than any of the other roles. Whatever benefit he could gain by lying about being the double voter would seem to be outweighed by the risk of being caught in lie later on.

[shieldgenerator7]

Thank you PMC for actually making a case against me that I could defend.

Now that you state it that way, it does make it look like my actions don't make sense. Let me explain what I was thinking during this time:
When I saw Ragian's post about the doublevoter, I noticed the vote was on Ragian and Ragian first posted about it. THat made me think, "Ragian must be the doublevoter!" So I wanted to tell town I had a guess of who the doublevoter was, but I didn't want to say it was Ragian because then he might get pressuredby the town to claim or he could go up on the mafia targetlist because he was a known townie (by "known" I mean mafia knows what role he has). And also, if it came down to a DV counterclaim and Ragian was the one being CC'd or was CC'ing then I could put my two cents in and say, "I belive Ragian! Lynch the other one!" But now he's exposed and no mafia would be dumb enough to claim doublevoter.
And then after a little questioning of me and me stating my reasons for not saying who yet, freezie just came out, took my guess, and voted Ragian, hoping to find a possible mafia doublevoter. So I thought, shoot, the mystery I might have been able to use later on in the game is gone, and what I was hoping to do/prevent with not revealing him is also gone/done. So freezie voted for Ragian because (s?)he was worried about a possible mafia DV. Thinking this was valid concern, I tossed my vote out there to test Ragian to see if he would claim DV. So far, he hasn't, so it's still not for sure if he is or not, but it looks like he might be. Although I thought he was townie, I can't tell for sure and pressuring seemed to be the only way to know for sure.

I might of missed a few things there but I think I've covered everything.

-SG7 ( )

So do you think the double voter is likely mafia?

1 - cop - doubtful, only helpful to keep town from getting info
2 - watcher - unuseful
3 - tracker - unuseful
4 - doctor - useful incase they don't get vig
5 - roleblocker - useful, standard mafia role
6 - vigilante - very useful, provides second kill
7 - bomb (works both when lynched and nightkilled) - useful as it makes sure a townie dies when he does
8 - JOAT (1-shot cop, doctor and vigilante) - semi-useful
9 - inventor (1-shot rolecop, roleblock and hide - only dies if hiding behind a player that is killed) - semi-useful
10 - busdriver - useful in screwing up town
11 - commuter (cannot commute in back to back nights) - unuseful
12 - bulletproof (also immune to bomb) - obviously handy, especially if they don't have vig
13 - doublevoter (second vote is a secret "???" PMed to me) - mildly useful
14 - 1-shot governor (can stop any lynch, including his own - day ends if he uses his power) - useful
15 - loved person (needs one more vote than necessary in order to be lynched) - could be more useful
16 and 17 - 2 masons (town only) - can't have it
18 - framer (mafia only) - useful only if town has cop. The very existance of it means that mafia cop can say some townie is scum and then say the framer did it. But this assumed the cop is mafia, which I find unlikely
19 - ninja (mafia only - will not be seen by watchers nor trackers) - useful, but like the framer, it will cause problems in mass claims for the mafia. Perhaps the mafia would sell these two players out if they got stuck with these roles to save themselves. IDK

*sorry I copy-pasted rather than clicked the quote button, so the rest of the smileys didn't make it (i didn't feel like typing the rest of them in)

From this, you can see that I think there's roughly a 50% chance that mafia would have wanted doublevoter, tho there are other roles that I think would be higher on the priority list. I'll explain further if requested, but I don't want to go into detail unnecsarily.

Anyway, there's your answer: "mildly useful" so yeah Ithink mafia might have gotten it.

FASTPOSTED

-SG7 ( )

[pmchugh]

From this, you can see that I think there's roughly a 50% chance that mafia would have wanted doublevoter, tho there are other roles that I think would be higher on the priority list. I'll explain further if requested, but I don't want to go into detail unnecsarily.

Anyway, there's your answer: "mildly useful" so yeah Ithink mafia might have gotten it.

FASTPOSTED

-SG7 ( )

So you wanted to get someone to claim as you believed they had a role which is "mildly useful" to mafia?

So following your logic, would you want alt to claim? Chances are as first in the list his role is at least "mildly useful" to mafia.

[ghostly447]

I will read this now but have to reply at home.

*tick* *tock* *tick* tock*

Well I answered this only the past month, so I can see why you would not have seen it yet after I have stated it in games that you are in on several occasions. I was working on the project all afternoon.

Now to address PMC. Admittedly, you brought a lot of points to the table. There are a few things that I couldnt quite answer until I can get on tomorrow and reread.

Ghostly it seems like you completely misunderstood the points I was making against you.

Let me restate.

On mass claims:

On the mass claim situation, I can go back and get my post, but I CLEARLY STATED that actually, I did not think it was a good idea because it seemed it would benefit the mafia more.

On a mass claim, I stated it twice that I thought it was not a good way of searching for mafia, and that it would ruin the game.

I don't see any posts prior to the one I quoted maybe I missed one but I checked again and still saw nothing.

The first time you posted an opinion on mass claim was on page 17 on the 10th of March. The first time it was mentioned was page 5 and the 1st of March. Did it really take you 12 pages and 9 days to form an opinion with saying?


All I can say is I felt like I had stated it in my posts. I will try to look more tomorrow (I havent gotten a good night of sleep for about a week so Im going to try to tonight) and see if I can find any contradicting posts. Besides that, you win this point until I can get time to find a post contradicting it.

On The freezie wagon:

So because I dont join in a useless BW, you suspect that I am not doing much?

It's not because you didn't join it, it is because you didn't state an opinion on it at the time but happened to agree with the town 7 days and 8 pages after the last vote went on the BW.

As for the freezie wagon, by not voting in the first place, I implied that I thought that it was useless. On top of that, I also know that 95% of the time that at least 1 scum will be involved in the lynching, or pressuring, of EVERY SINGLE BANDWAGON until it gets to a point they cant risk exposing themselves (IE 1 mafia, 7 players, wont go in for the kill unless they can gather hard evidence).

Freezie wagon. I am going to come out right now and just say that I was very confused with all of the roles, etc, and it cause me to temporarily lose my normal activity in games (because I didnt want to be stupid and out a powerful role) so therefore, though I read this entire BW I never quite got why it was started, and really why he got put to L-3 (I do not believe L-3 is dangerous, but it seemed more like a joke wagon than anything).

Again, not saying you should have been on it. I am saying.. why did you not talk about this when it was actually relevant? Why weren't you saying one of us should be mafia round about when freezie replied? Would it not be better to apply pressure and see which of us react?

Something I can defend myself against off the bat. It still is very relevant. It comes up on every page and is a main reason people were trying to accuse clever. You even brought it up against me in your last post, MAKING it relevant.

On Clever:

I never even got on Clever. So the fact you want to imply that I was ever for lynching him is ridiculous.

I never said you wanted him lynched, I said you waited to see how the main bulk of the town would react. This post was 7 days and 6 pages after freezie first voted him. And in this time at least; me, nag, spesir, dazza, shield, raigan and clever himself all posted along the same lines you eventually did.

On OMGUS and the fos's you have given:

Again, I saw the wagon. I didnt jump on because I clearly didnt think it was worth the BW it got. My life is just as busy as anyone elses. I gave input on the mass/partial claim, and didnt like the idea of it which reasons I clearly stated above. I am glad you can decide my mind for me, but I am interested in finding mafia. In fact, I have given 3 fos's. You, Dazza, and Nag. So, you clearly stated contradicting in what has actually happened.

Whether you provided good reasons or not it remains that the only significant opinions you have offered at a relevant time are all fos's at people who were voting you, excluding me. But I don't really think you can say that you did fos me, not until now at least (omgus lol).

As for the PMC case you brought up, I do not think it is particularly scummy that he brought up a mass claim (except for I cant really see any use in it) but probably at least one person on the freezie wagon was scum. It would surprise me if there wasnt at least one on the wagon. But until he slips up more, maybe under applied pressure, I do not feel comfortable taking sides on this case.

You actually confirm my opinion of you here. You are too scared to take sides at all. The only times you have taken sides are against those who have accused you, or where it is several days after a consensus has been reached. Obviously I don't expect you to reveal all your cards straight away but you have definitely appeared very cautious and that is certainly not something I would normally associate with you.

Actually I confirmed that neither case in my opinion at the time overwhelmed the other one, and so I did not feel comfortable going against either. You know how that ends. If the one you defend is mafia, you are the next investigated, and if you are town that helps no one. You should know better PMC.

[freezie]

I am going to keep my vote on SG7 for now. His explanations for his multiple 180' s doesn't really convince me.

As for myself, I have few reasons to beleive the double voter is more likely mafia than town. What, however, thought me to think of it as more likely is the fact he showed only after the quick hammer strategy was busted out. Was the DV planing to do this, or simply forget his role? I dont know. What I know is the timing is fitting if anything else. By showing up at that time, he's probably ( if mafia, that is ) trying to show he's here and not going to harm. But as long as we don't know who it is, we cannot be sure..

[everywhere116]

I am going to keep my vote on SG7 for now. His explanations for his multiple 180' s doesn't really convince me.

As for myself, I have few reasons to beleive the double voter is more likely mafia than town. What, however, thought me to think of it as more likely is the fact he showed only after the quick hammer strategy was busted out. Was the DV planing to do this, or simply forget his role? I dont know. What I know is the timing is fitting if anything else. By showing up at that time, he's probably ( if mafia, that is ) trying to show he's here and not going to harm. But as long as we don't know who it is, we cannot be sure..

i don't follow. I understand that the DV would want to reveal his existence when we were talking about it, but I don't see how that makes it more likely for that DV to be mafia.