ATTN: People Who Believe in Creation Myths

[Haggis_McMutton]

I don't know why people even try to reason with you NS... you seem to be so far gone there's no rescuing you from your indoctrination.

Let me just ask you this. Are you even capable of considering the possibility that your religion is actually false, and what the implications would be if so?

Yes, I have contemplated it. And it would be a pointless existence if we were simply here because evolution randomly decided that we would be here at this point and will then fade into nothingness when we die. I instead choose to believe that we were all created for a specific purpose.

And here we have it, the basis of not only most(all?) religions but a shitload of other irrational beliefs as well.

Fear of death. Plain and simple.

Oh... that's disappointing. I thought my religious belief was based on something else. It's good of you to put us in our place though Haggis. Appreciated.

I'm mostly talking about the spread of religion.
It obviously doesn't apply to every individual, but, do you think religion would be nearly as prevalent as it is today without heaven and hell?
You think if religion said: You have to follow thsese rules cause the creator of the universe wants you to, but there's no punishment or reward attached, it would have had the same success?
Really?

Also if you're claiming that you're completely indifferent to wether you die and rot in 50 odd years, or if you get to experience eternal bliss with all your loved ones. Well ... either you're the fuckin' Buddha or that might not be completely accurate.

[Haggis_McMutton]

And here we have it, the basis of not only most(all?) religions but a shitload of other irrational beliefs as well.

Fear of death. Plain and simple.

Wow. I've stayed out of this and don't really plan on getting into a fight over anything, or even some debate, but I'm pretty sure religious people aren't scared of death / it's certainly not the basis of religion... tons of people are martyred each year because of their religion which causes their death, you can even go back and see deaths of like Jesus' disciples, they could've dropped the whole issue and got on with their life...

I recon religious ppl fear death less than most other ppl.

Yes, because they don't think they die. Die as in cease to exist.
They think they're commuting to happy magic fantasy land. So not exactly the same thing.

[Night Strike]

And here we have it, the basis of not only most(all?) religions but a shitload of other irrational beliefs as well.

Fear of death. Plain and simple.

Wow. I've stayed out of this and don't really plan on getting into a fight over anything, or even some debate, but I'm pretty sure religious people aren't scared of death / it's certainly not the basis of religion... tons of people are martyred each year because of their religion which causes their death, you can even go back and see deaths of like Jesus' disciples, they could've dropped the whole issue and got on with their life...

I recon religious ppl fear death less than most other ppl.

Yes, because they don't think they die. Die as in cease to exist.
They think they're commuting to happy magic fantasy land. So not exactly the same thing.

No Christian believes Heaven is "happy magic fantasy land". In fact, if that's all the Heaven was, you wouldn't have seen countless number of people killed for their beliefs. Heaven is obviously more than that. If you want to believe that, then you can. But you won't be ending up in Heaven when you die. At best, based on your beliefs, you'll just no longer exist. At worst, according to Christianity, you will end up in Hell.

[Haggis_McMutton]

And here we have it, the basis of not only most(all?) religions but a shitload of other irrational beliefs as well.

Fear of death. Plain and simple.

Wow. I've stayed out of this and don't really plan on getting into a fight over anything, or even some debate, but I'm pretty sure religious people aren't scared of death / it's certainly not the basis of religion... tons of people are martyred each year because of their religion which causes their death, you can even go back and see deaths of like Jesus' disciples, they could've dropped the whole issue and got on with their life...

I recon religious ppl fear death less than most other ppl.

Yes, because they don't think they die. Die as in cease to exist.
They think they're commuting to happy magic fantasy land. So not exactly the same thing.

No Christian believes Heaven is "happy magic fantasy land". In fact, if that's all the Heaven was, you wouldn't have seen countless number of people killed for their beliefs. Heaven is obviously more than that. If you want to believe that, then you can. But you won't be ending up in Heaven when you die. At best, based on your beliefs, you'll just no longer exist. At worst, according to Christianity, you will end up in Hell.

Hmm, not sure what you mean, you believe heaven is eternal bliss, right?
That makes it a "happy land". The magic fantasy part was mostly added because to me it seems to be part of the magical era of human development(i.e. when we ascribed stuff we didn't understand to magic) and I believe it to be a fantasy.

Also, the gambit is the same for you. If some other religion has it right looks like we may have plenty of time to finish this discussion while we're both burning in hell.

[thegreekdog]

I don't know why people even try to reason with you NS... you seem to be so far gone there's no rescuing you from your indoctrination.

Let me just ask you this. Are you even capable of considering the possibility that your religion is actually false, and what the implications would be if so?

Yes, I have contemplated it. And it would be a pointless existence if we were simply here because evolution randomly decided that we would be here at this point and will then fade into nothingness when we die. I instead choose to believe that we were all created for a specific purpose.

And here we have it, the basis of not only most(all?) religions but a shitload of other irrational beliefs as well.

Fear of death. Plain and simple.

Oh... that's disappointing. I thought my religious belief was based on something else. It's good of you to put us in our place though Haggis. Appreciated.

I'm mostly talking about the spread of religion.
It obviously doesn't apply to every individual, but, do you think religion would be nearly as prevalent as it is today without heaven and hell?
You think if religion said: You have to follow thsese rules cause the creator of the universe wants you to, but there's no punishment or reward attached, it would have had the same success?
Really?

Also if you're claiming that you're completely indifferent to wether you die and rot in 50 odd years, or if you get to experience eternal bliss with all your loved ones. Well ... either you're the fuckin' Buddha or that might not be completely accurate.

Well, let me ask you a responding question - Are you indifferent as to whether you die and rot in 50 odd years? If not, then why aren't you part of a religion? Is it because your atheism/agnosticism is so strong that it overrides your fear of dying? Are all atheists and agnostics like this? I joke sometimes that the bravest people in the world are atheists because if they're wrong they are screwed and if they are right they are screwed... but it's a joke.

Essentially, what you're saying is this:

- People who belong to a religion where an afterlife exists are only (or are mostly) part of that religion so that they can experience eternal bliss with loved ones.
- People who are atheist or agnostic don't have the same fear of death and thus do not participate in religions where an afterlife exists.

That seems rather... I don't know what the word is... ignorant? Facile? Simplistic?

To put it another way, I'm scared of dying, even though I believe in heaven and hell. I bet most people, if not all, are scared of dying. To boil religions down to one element (afterlife) is just... weird. Granted, Night Strike basically said that's the reason for his belief, which makes me think he's not really paying attention to his religion.

To put it yet another way, if religions were created to help assuage fears about death, why are most religions peaceful and "love thy neighbor" and "do good works" and all that? Why not just have a religion where you go to the afterlife, but don't have to do anything to get there?

To put it a fourth way, why in the world were there polytheistic religions with crappy afterlifes (or is it afterlives)? Why did they come before the "do good stuff and get into heaven" religions? I will acknowledge that religions came about to explain the unknown, but seriously?

[natty dread]

I don't know why people even try to reason with you NS... you seem to be so far gone there's no rescuing you from your indoctrination.

Let me just ask you this. Are you even capable of considering the possibility that your religion is actually false, and what the implications would be if so?

Yes, I have contemplated it. And it would be a pointless existence if we were simply here because evolution randomly decided that we would be here at this point and will then fade into nothingness when we die. I instead choose to believe that we were all created for a specific purpose.

So, the truth doesn't really matter to you... You just "choose to believe" your religion because you can't handle the idea that there is no afterlife.

The truth is everything to me, which is why I am a Christian. No other religion or set of beliefs on this earth is the truth. It's also why I stand up for the truth in other areas, such as politics.

You just said you "choose to believe we were created for a specific purpose". Obviously, you don't care about the evidence, which says evolution is true.

How do you know your religion is true and all other religions are false? They all claim to be the one true religion. None of them have any proof.

[tkr4lf]

Why would a god who loves us create us with all these urges and then tell us that we either deny ourselves the things we want the most, or we suffer for eternity? Either be miserable in this life (which we can say for a fact exists), or be miserable for your eternal afterlife (which may or may not exist). Does that seem like the kind of choice a loving father-figure would force upon his children?

Because we didn't originally have a sin nature and all our natural desires were good and allowed. We had one rule to follow: to not eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet Adam and Eve chose to disobey it. Because of that, all humans have fallen and been separated from God. What used to be good and was designed as pleasurable by God has been twisted into things that are harmful for people when not used in it proper way. Sex was designed to be enjoyed between the marriage of one man and one woman, and it's our sin nature that has led to all the problems we have today. A loving-father figure doesn't allow his children to just enjoy themselves in the present when he knows that what they're doing now will hurt them in the long run. That's why God's rules say to save sex for marriage: because that's where the joy and meaning of sex can be enjoyed and is protected. Same thing with sin in general: doing a sinful act now simply because its enjoyable doesn't mean it's better for you in the long run, whether that long run involves consequences later in life or eternal ones.

Well, I mean, I can't really argue against this.

The most I can say is that I disagree. I think we've had the same natural urges our entire existence. And really, unless puberty didn't begin until right before marriage, then those first people (I guess Adam and Eve's children?) had sinful urges as well.

Completely unrelated, but what are your thoughts on the fact that if Adam and Eve were the only two people, and then they had children, that those children had to have sex with each other and likely with their parents in order to make more people? I mean, if there was nobody else on earth, then how did more people come about? There had to be some incest going on there.

[tkr4lf]

I don't know why people even try to reason with you NS... you seem to be so far gone there's no rescuing you from your indoctrination.

Let me just ask you this. Are you even capable of considering the possibility that your religion is actually false, and what the implications would be if so?

Yes, I have contemplated it. And it would be a pointless existence if we were simply here because evolution randomly decided that we would be here at this point and will then fade into nothingness when we die. I instead choose to believe that we were all created for a specific purpose.

So, the truth doesn't really matter to you... You just "choose to believe" your religion because you can't handle the idea that there is no afterlife.

The truth is everything to me, which is why I am a Christian. No other religion or set of beliefs on this earth is the truth. It's also why I stand up for the truth in other areas, such as politics.

You just said you "choose to believe we were created for a specific purpose". Obviously, you don't care about the evidence, which says evolution is true.

How do you know your religion is true and all other religions are false? They all claim to be the one true religion. None of them have any proof.

To be fair, he never said (at least not in this thread, I don't know about anywhere else) that he doesn't believe in evolution. For all we know, god is real and created us using evolution.

One of the few good things I can say about religion is that its followers are generally happier people. They genuinely believe that their life has meaning. That's gotta be good for the psyche. As far as I'm concerned, life has no meaning. There is no purpose for our existence, and in the end we simply cease to exist. I guess at least people like NS have that going for them. Sometimes it's hard not to slip into complete nihilism when you think that life is pointless, at least for me.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Well, let me ask you a responding question - Are you indifferent as to whether you die and rot in 50 odd years? If not, then why aren't you part of a religion? Is it because your atheism/agnosticism is so strong that it overrides your fear of dying? Are all atheists and agnostics like this? I joke sometimes that the bravest people in the world are atheists because if they're wrong they are screwed and if they are right they are screwed... but it's a joke.

Of course not, I'd never claim such a ridiculous thing. I'm afraid of non-existance, just like most other sensible people. I just found other coping mechanisms that, IMO don't interfere with being able to judge the truth or falsity of fundamental questions, like god.

Essentially, what you're saying is this:

- People who belong to a religion where an afterlife exists are only (or are mostly) part of that religion so that they can experience eternal bliss with loved ones.
- People who are atheist or agnostic don't have the same fear of death and thus do not participate in religions where an afterlife exists.

That seems rather... I don't know what the word is... ignorant? Facile? Simplistic?

To put it another way, I'm scared of dying, even though I believe in heaven and hell. I bet most people, if not all, are scared of dying. To boil religions down to one element (afterlife) is just... weird. Granted, Night Strike basically said that's the reason for his belief, which makes me think he's not really paying attention to his religion

Yeah, ok, maybe the statement was a bit stronger than it should have (but as you say, NS also made a strong statement).
But I do believe helping people cope with death is a big reason why religion flourished.

To put it yet another way, if religions were created to help assuage fears about death, why are most religions peaceful and "love thy neighbor" and "do good works" and all that? Why not just have a religion where you go to the afterlife, but don't have to do anything to get there?

To put it a fourth way, why in the world were there polytheistic religions with crappy afterlifes (or is it afterlives)? Why did they come before the "do good stuff and get into heaven" religions? I will acknowledge that religions came about to explain the unknown, but seriously?

This is way on a tangent, but it's actually an interesting point.
I think it's to do with human nature and cognitive biases. Why do cults always require so much from you? And the more they require from you, the more devoted you become to them, to the point were you end up with mass suicides. I actually don't think a religion that just offered you rewards for free would work.

[KoolBak]

Since the term "Myth" is in the thread title, I think we should forward it to Jamie and Adam to verify / deny That would be an awesome episode.....

[natty dread]

To be fair, he never said (at least not in this thread, I don't know about anywhere else) that he doesn't believe in evolution. For all we know, god is real and created us using evolution.

Based on earlier discussions, I know nightstrike doesn't believe in evolution. He thinks the bible is literally true. Even the parts that contradict each other, somehow.

One of the few good things I can say about religion is that its followers are generally happier people. They genuinely believe that their life has meaning. That's gotta be good for the psyche.

Repressing your feelings because you consider them wrong, dirty and sinful doesn't sound like it would be healthy for your psyche...

As far as I'm concerned, life has no meaning. There is no purpose for our existence, and in the end we simply cease to exist. I guess at least people like NS have that going for them. Sometimes it's hard not to slip into complete nihilism when you think that life is pointless, at least for me.

You're looking at it the wrong way. Our life has whatever meaning we want to give it - "meaning" is a subjective definition, after all. If you want to make your life about building the largest cheese pyramid in the world, or becoming the world's best pocket billiard player, then there's the meaning of life for you.

For me, the fact that this life is probably the only thing we get makes it all the more valuable, something that should not be wasted.

[Night Strike]

To put it another way, I'm scared of dying, even though I believe in heaven and hell. I bet most people, if not all, are scared of dying. To boil religions down to one element (afterlife) is just... weird. Granted, Night Strike basically said that's the reason for his belief, which makes me think he's not really paying attention to his religion.

When I first became saved, it was simply because I didn't want to go to Hell (granted, that was when I was 11). Since then I've learned about what being a Christian actually means and entails and how it is much more than just insurance from Hell.

Based on earlier discussions, I know nightstrike doesn't believe in evolution. He thinks the bible is literally true. Even the parts that contradict each other, somehow.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Laws and rules may have changed over time or things may have even been improperly translated, but the entire premise of the Bible and Christianity never contradicts itself. Even though some people have devoted their lives to taking snippets from verses and passages and claiming they contradict others.

Completely unrelated, but what are your thoughts on the fact that if Adam and Eve were the only two people, and then they had children, that those children had to have sex with each other and likely with their parents in order to make more people? I mean, if there was nobody else on earth, then how did more people come about? There had to be some incest going on there.

When humans were first created and were "going forth to multiply", they knew nothing about how modern society would deem it in appropriate to procreate with close relatives. God of course knew about the existence of DNA (he designed it) but protected it from the dangerous mutations that occur when close relatives have offspring. There is a specific verse, I believe in Leviticus, where God tells the Israelites that they can no longer have relations with close relatives.

[Juan_Bottom]

In fact, Christians don't even treat them as less human than everyone else. Christians just want the definition of marriage to stay as one man and one woman.

Why?

You should try to read the bible and you would be aware of it. And they aren't ancient superstitions nor is it oppressive to anybody.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

This is what I'm talking about when I say that Christians don't care what the Bible really says, they only want to use it for their personal agenda. For their personal version of God. This is another reason to deduct IQ points from their perceived intelligence.
And then they teach kids to do this too. It's terrible.
And remember that so long as there are Christians, and there is the Bible to lead them, then there will always be a chance that gay-murdering fanaticism will come again.

What battle? I didn't realize there was a battle, nor am I a part of any battle.

And look, bottom line, the issue has nothing to do with level of intellect. It's all a matter of belief. Theists believe in a god, atheist believe that there is no god. I say believe, because there is no way to know. You can fool yourself into thinking that you "know" that there is no god, but you don't. It's unknowable. You believe that there isn't a god. And that belief is no different from somebody else's belief that there is a god.

And just because there isn't any evidence that there is a god, doesn't mean that your or my beliefs are correct. There isn't any evidence against there being a god either. For all we know there really is a god, and evolution is simply the mechanism he created to deal with life. We just don't know.

I guess my main point here, is that you have no right to be a total dick to anybody who believes in a god.

I'm actually really surprised to see you trying to sell me down the river in this thread. Have you ever read an literature on this subject or have you come to an Atheist's conclusion on your own? There actually is evidence contradictory to there being a God. There is a world of evidence that there is no Christian God. If you really respect the guesses of Christians then why are you even debating NS?

The real bottom line is that to hold a Christians or a Creationists position is to hold an inferior one to mine. Despite what you said, there is a proven negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity. That is, the stupider you are, the more likely you are to be religious.
There's no reason at all to pretend that I respect a creationists arguments. I don't respect them. Their arguments are pretty f*cking stupid and have no scientific weight. We've smashed them in every debate here and elsewhere. I've never once heard an intelligent argument from a Creationist. I've never had to pause and think before responding. I've never had to do any serious research because of some awesome new revelation from one.
They're not standing on equal footing with me. I'm not going to humor them and pretend that they are. You might as well pretend that a skinhead's ideas are worthy of being too. Neither a Creationist nor a racist has any science to back up their claims. And if you take a look at your position here, of claiming that I'm the radical for being disrespectful; stop and think for a second.... what I'm doing, is bashing a retarded idea that has no science or facts at all to back it up. That's a normal thing to do. Thomas Jefferson recommended it when confronted with an untenable idea. And it's an idea that you don't even believe in. So why are you apologizing for their folly? If their "beliefs" were valid, God would be a Theory and not a Hypothesis. By defending those ideas, you might as well be defending Racism. It's all from the same tree of ignorance. A belief is a belief... but believing in things contrary to all facts is retarded.

[MeDeFe]

edit: But what comic boy said also applies. Who knows, maybe one can justify treating a small group of humans as something less than everyone else if it advances our culture far enough.

You mean kind of like how the Nazis treated Jews, gypsies, and gays?

medefe believes they should be treated as less human than others, then yes, it does move into the realm of vile and bigoted.

[Night Strike]

You should try to read the bible and you would be aware of it. And they aren't ancient superstitions nor is it oppressive to anybody.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

This is what I'm talking about when I say that Christians don't care what the Bible really says, they only want to use it for their personal agenda. For their personal version of God. This is another reason to deduct IQ points from their perceived intelligence.
And then they teach kids to do this too. It's terrible.
And remember that so long as there are Christians, and there is the Bible to lead them, then there will always be a chance that gay-murdering fanaticism will come again.

Except in the New Testament Jesus comes and states that our job as Christians is to forgive people, not carry out personal judgment on them. Those laws were in place for the Israelites in order to show them the righteous path to follow and that if they don't follow it, they had to make a blood sacrifice to atone for their sins. Furthermore, all those laws are used to point out that all people are sinful in same way and that we can never live up to the righteousness of Christ. When Christ came to be the atonement for our sin, he instructed his follows that it is no longer their job to punish those who break God's law as all people must be given the opportunity to repent.

show: bigotry

By the way, this part has been reported for bigotry. Christianity is not akin to racism and your blanket assertions to that effect is bigoted. As are your automatic assumptions that we are all retarded and that you are inherently better than all of us who believe in Christianity. Your hubris exposes your bigotry.

[Juan_Bottom]

- People who belong to a religion where an afterlife exists are only (or are mostly) part of that religion so that they can experience eternal bliss with loved ones.
- People who are atheist or agnostic don't have the same fear of death and thus do not participate in religions where an afterlife exists.

That seems rather... I don't know what the word is... ignorant? Facile? Simplistic?

To put it another way, I'm scared of dying, even though I believe in heaven and hell. I bet most people, if not all, are scared of dying. To boil religions down to one element (afterlife) is just... weird. Granted, Night Strike basically said that's the reason for his belief, which makes me think he's not really paying attention to his religion.

To put it yet another way, if religions were created to help assuage fears about death, why are most religions peaceful and "love thy neighbor" and "do good works" and all that? Why not just have a religion where you go to the afterlife, but don't have to do anything to get there?

To put it a fourth way, why in the world were there polytheistic religions with crappy afterlifes (or is it afterlives)? Why did they come before the "do good stuff and get into heaven" religions? I will acknowledge that religions came about to explain the unknown, but seriously?

You'll notice a strong theme among many current religions today of Heaven and Hell. The concept of Catholic Hell, when you think about it, is utterly ridiculous in how scary it's made to look. It's supposed to scare you into conforming to your churches doctrine and to do what you're told. But really, would a God even need a hell? Would a supreme being use prisons? Would a God need all sorts of after-life tortures?
Catholic guilt also runs right in line with human nature. Just for being human you're a sinner and you need church. It's the only sure way to avoid all that eternal torture. & When you throw this at a kid, there's no doubt that it's all a powerful indoctrination tool.

Originally all major religions were violent. They had to be to keep from being stamped out. Yahweh, if you remember, was originally the Jewish God of War back when the Jews were polytheists. That's why the Old Testament is full of rape and genocide. After the Jews were defeated in war, they turned to worshiping their God of War exclusively, as their hopeful deliverer. The new Testament was written, Jesus came and was ignored... and as time and technology progress, these theists became a civilized people and did away with all that genocidal stuff. It's a lot easier to spread a message of peace than a message of war. But it's all still there in the Bible... like a sleeping giant.

[Night Strike]

Originally all major religions were violent. They had to be to keep from being stamped out. Yahweh, if you remember, was originally the Jewish God of War back when the Jews were polytheists. That's why the Old Testament is full of rape and genocide. After the Jews were defeated in war, they turned to worshiping their God of War exclusively, as their hopeful deliverer. The new Testament was written, Jesus came and was ignored... and as time and technology progress, these theists became a civilized people and did away with all that genocidal stuff. It's a lot easier to spread a message of peace than a message of war. But it's all still there in the Bible... like a sleeping giant.

Wow. Talk about an impressive rewriting of the history of the Jewish people and Christianity.

[natty dread]

By the way, this part has been reported for bigotry. ... Your hubris exposes your bigotry.

Definition of irony:

The guy who thinks homosexuals shouldn't have the same rights as other people is accusing others of bigotry.

[Night Strike]

By the way, this part has been reported for bigotry. ... Your hubris exposes your bigotry.

Definition of irony:

The guy who thinks homosexuals shouldn't have the same rights as other people is accusing others of bigotry.

Homosexuals have the exact same rights as everybody else because marriage is not a right.

[Juan_Bottom]

By the way, this part has been reported for bigotry. ... Your hubris exposes your bigotry.

Definition of irony:

The guy who thinks homosexuals shouldn't have the same rights as other people is accusing others of bigotry.

Wow. Talk about an impressive rewriting of the history of the Jewish people and Christianity.

Says the guy who believes the Bible is literally true.

[Night Strike]

Wow. Talk about an impressive rewriting of the history of the Jewish people and Christianity.

Says the guy who believes the Bible is literally true.

Yep, most of it is. Some parts are not meant to be literal. In fact, most of the historical people and places mentioned in the Bible have been proven to have existed as more and more research and archeological discoveries are made. Every year (or at least every couple of years) independent sources make discoveries that validate the historical accuracy of the Bible, not disprove it.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

We had one rule to follow: to not eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet Adam and Eve chose to disobey it.

"We?" What the f*ck "we?" I didn't have shit to say in the matter.

Yes, I have contemplated it. And it would be a pointless existence if we were simply here because evolution randomly decided that we would be here at this point and will then fade into nothingness when we die. I instead choose to believe that we were all created for a specific purpose.

Evolution isn't a conscious process. It didn't "decide" anything.

No Christian believes Heaven is "happy magic fantasy land". In fact, if that's all the Heaven was, you wouldn't have seen countless number of people killed for their beliefs. Heaven is obviously more than that. If you want to believe that, then you can. But you won't be ending up in Heaven when you die. At best, based on your beliefs, you'll just no longer exist. At worst, according to Christianity, you will end up in Hell.

No, that's precisely what it is. It's a belief in the soul, which is an absurdity, a vain hope that we don't ever really die, just travel to some other plane of existence. Haggis is spot on, as usual.

Also:

"Hell ain't a bad place. Hell is from here to eternity."

And what does your whole concept of heaven and hell say about your compassion? Here you believe in this place where people live eternally in bliss, and yet they know that their fellow kindred are suffering in hell and don't do anything to help them. Not to mention the modern concept of christian hell isn't mentioned in the old testament.

-TG

[Night Strike]

And what does your whole concept of heaven and hell say about your compassion? Here you believe in this place where people live eternally in bliss, and yet they know that their fellow kindred are suffering in hell and don't do anything to help them. Not to mention the modern concept of christian hell isn't mentioned in the old testament.

-TG

Hell is the name we give to what the Bible describes as "eternal separation from God". People go to Hell because they have refused to accept Christ as Savior and Lord. They made their choice, so although no Christian wants to see a person go to Hell, we can't force them to make the one choice that can get them into Heaven. Hell is so horrible because God by definition has no place in Hell. At least on earth God can mediate in our affairs and make sure Satan does not have ultimate rule, but in Hell, there are no protections. People go to Hell because God cannot have any sin in his presence: his Holiness does not allow sin in its presence. If we in our sin nature were to even look upon the face of God, we would instantly die because of his perfect Holiness.

[Juan_Bottom]

By the way, this part has been reported for bigotry. Christianity is not akin to racism and your blanket assertions to that effect is bigoted. As are your automatic assumptions that we are all retarded and that you are inherently better than all of us who believe in Christianity. Your hubris exposes your bigotry.

I can expose myself thank you. There's no need for CC to protect Christians from being butthurt by someone calling their ideas retarded. God can defend herself, if she chooses to exist or however you pretend that works. Your ideas are akin to racist ones in that neither is founded on reality, but rather on want. My point was not that Christians are racists. Shocking though it may be to hear, it's an accurate parallel.

Also, I very carefully said that Creationists ideas are retarded. I did not say that Christian ideas are. Those guys are like the Scientologists of Christianity. Everyone is like "ugh! just leave the Kansas board of education alone!"

Originally all major religions were violent. They had to be to keep from being stamped out. Yahweh, if you remember, was originally the Jewish God of War back when the Jews were polytheists. That's why the Old Testament is full of rape and genocide. After the Jews were defeated in war, they turned to worshiping their God of War exclusively, as their hopeful deliverer. The new Testament was written, Jesus came and was ignored... and as time and technology progress, these theists became a civilized people and did away with all that genocidal stuff. It's a lot easier to spread a message of peace than a message of war. But it's all still there in the Bible... like a sleeping giant.

Wow. Talk about an impressive rewriting of the history of the Jewish people and Christianity.

YOU JUST SAID:

Except in the New Testament Jesus comes and states that our job as Christians is to forgive people, not carry out personal judgment on them. Those laws were in place for the Israelites in order to show them the righteous path to follow and that if they don't follow it, they had to make a blood sacrifice to atone for their sins. Furthermore, all those laws are used to point out that all people are sinful in same way and that we can never live up to the righteousness of Christ. When Christ came to be the atonement for our sin, he instructed his follows that it is no longer their job to punish those who break God's law as all people must be given the opportunity to repent.

You're kind of proving my point, aren't you?

Yep, most of it is. Some parts are not meant to be literal. In fact, most of the historical people and places mentioned in the Bible have been proven to have existed as more and more research and archeological discoveries are made. Every year (or at least every couple of years) independent sources make discoveries that validate the historical accuracy of the Bible, not disprove it.

Yes, but those parts have been proven to be completely inaccurate. The destruction of Jericho, as we have gone over and over, is a Biblical lie. You might have me with that yearly bullsh*t, but every day real scientists with PHDs find evidence in contradiction to the Bible. You just don't keep up with the literature. Most all of the "evidence" for biblical accuracy has been found by people who do not have a scientific background.

[thegreekdog]

- People who belong to a religion where an afterlife exists are only (or are mostly) part of that religion so that they can experience eternal bliss with loved ones.
- People who are atheist or agnostic don't have the same fear of death and thus do not participate in religions where an afterlife exists.

That seems rather... I don't know what the word is... ignorant? Facile? Simplistic?

To put it another way, I'm scared of dying, even though I believe in heaven and hell. I bet most people, if not all, are scared of dying. To boil religions down to one element (afterlife) is just... weird. Granted, Night Strike basically said that's the reason for his belief, which makes me think he's not really paying attention to his religion.

To put it yet another way, if religions were created to help assuage fears about death, why are most religions peaceful and "love thy neighbor" and "do good works" and all that? Why not just have a religion where you go to the afterlife, but don't have to do anything to get there?

To put it a fourth way, why in the world were there polytheistic religions with crappy afterlifes (or is it afterlives)? Why did they come before the "do good stuff and get into heaven" religions? I will acknowledge that religions came about to explain the unknown, but seriously?

You'll notice a strong theme among many current religions today of Heaven and Hell. The concept of Catholic Hell, when you think about it, is utterly ridiculous in how scary it's made to look. It's supposed to scare you into conforming to your churches doctrine and to do what you're told. But really, would a God even need a hell? Would a supreme being use prisons? Would a God need all sorts of after-life tortures?
Catholic guilt also runs right in line with human nature. Just for being human you're a sinner and you need church. It's the only sure way to avoid all that eternal torture. & When you throw this at a kid, there's no doubt that it's all a powerful indoctrination tool.

Originally all major religions were violent. They had to be to keep from being stamped out. Yahweh, if you remember, was originally the Jewish God of War back when the Jews were polytheists. That's why the Old Testament is full of rape and genocide. After the Jews were defeated in war, they turned to worshiping their God of War exclusively, as their hopeful deliverer. The new Testament was written, Jesus came and was ignored... and as time and technology progress, these theists became a civilized people and did away with all that genocidal stuff. It's a lot easier to spread a message of peace than a message of war. But it's all still there in the Bible... like a sleeping giant.

Yes, one should not need hell to be a good person.

As to the rest, I'm not sure what you mean or what you're trying to say.