ATTN: People Who Believe in Creation Myths

[BigBallinStalin]

Wait, everyone hold the phone.

I'm not moderating in this thread (so let's get that out of the way). As far as I'm concerned, respectful discussion about religion is fine. Just like respectful discussion about gay marriage is fine.

Creationism (ISM) is not respectable, I agree with that, and it has no place in the scientific community and should not be taught in schools. Let's get that out of the way too.

Creationists should be taken on an individual basis, not lumped together and given no respect, especially when a creationist is not pushing his or her agenda. You can disrespect the idea without disrespecting the people who believe the idea. This thread wasn't created by a creationists. It was created by whatever pimpdave happens to be today (presumably atheist).

What does "ISM" mean? WHAT DOES IT MEAN>!?! TELL ME!! AHHGHGHGGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thegreekdog]

OK, you just said "Creationism is retarded."

No, I said that creationism is not respectable (in the realm of science and education). What you've done (and what Night Strike has taken umbrage with) is that you've called creationists stupid.

What does "ISM" mean? WHAT DOES IT MEAN>!?! TELL ME!! AHHGHGHGGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Creationism
Creationist

[Juan_Bottom]

You can disagree with Christianity all you want. What's bigoted is your flat out insistence that all Christians are automatically stupid for believing it and that because you don't believe in it you are inherently better than those that do. If I had taken your exact same comments towards Christianity and would have instead pointed them towards Muslims, you would have immediately (and rightfully) labeled me as a bigot and reported me. We only ask that you be treated the same way.

My insistence is that they are being dumb when they believe in dumb things. For example, I did not attack Christian Charity because there are lots of good ideas practiced by Christians.
No, I specifically attacked Creationism. I've got no problem with you attacking retarded Muslim beliefs. Aw hell, most Muslims believe in Creationism, so I'll even join you.

When you believe in a lot of retarded things, then I'm going to start knocking IQ points away from you. Take Alex Jones for example. That guy obviously knows how to passionately speak, and he knows everything about his field. Even though those things make him sound brilliant, and his memorization is phenomenal, he's still preaching global conspiracy. Thus, he sounds smart but also sounds retarded.

[Night Strike]

You can disagree with Christianity all you want. What's bigoted is your flat out insistence that all Christians are automatically stupid for believing it and that because you don't believe in it you are inherently better than those that do. If I had taken your exact same comments towards Christianity and would have instead pointed them towards Muslims, you would have immediately (and rightfully) labeled me as a bigot and reported me. We only ask that you be treated the same way.

My insistence is that they are being dumb when they believe in dumb things. For example, I did not attack Christian Charity because there are lots of good ideas practiced by Christians.
No, I specifically attacked Creationism. I've got no problem with you attacking retarded Muslim beliefs. Aw hell, most Muslims believe in Creationism, so I'll even join you.

When you believe in a lot of retarded things, then I'm going to start knocking IQ points away from you. Take Alex Jones for example. That guy obviously knows how to passionately speak, and he knows everything about his field. Even though those things make him sound brilliant, and his memorization is phenomenal, he's still preaching global conspiracy. Thus, he sounds smart but also sounds retarded.

You opened your argument with

The real bottom line is that to hold a Christians or a Creationists position is to hold an inferior one to mine.

The rest of your text may have been talking about creationism, but you clearly opened the argument with Christians being inferior to you.

[pimpdave]

No, Night Strike, stop arguing so emotionally and using emotion as your guide to all of your beliefs and opinions.

He said a Creationist's POSITION is inferior to his. Which is true, they actually believe a stupid myth that's been around since before the Bronze Age.

[natty dread]

It just occasionally sort of hits me that, here we are - a species that has begun mastering space travel, cured diseases, created a global communication network that everyone can use - and yet, there still are people who against all evidence believe the entire universe was created 6000 years ago by a magical creature...

[john9blue]

juan, please tell me more ways that i can gain perceived IQ points in your eyes

your estimation of my intelligence is very important to me

[Night Strike]

It just occasionally sort of hits me that, here we are - a species that has begun mastering space travel, cured diseases, created a global communication network that everyone can use - and yet, there still are people who against all evidence believe the entire universe was created 6000 years ago by a magical creature...

.....Because God isn't a magical creature.....

[chang50]

It just occasionally sort of hits me that, here we are - a species that has begun mastering space travel, cured diseases, created a global communication network that everyone can use - and yet, there still are people who against all evidence believe the entire universe was created 6000 years ago by a magical creature...

.....Because God isn't a magical creature.....

Too true,you cannot be a creature,magical or not if you do not exist.Of course I recognise you believe she does,I can only respectfully opine you are mistaken,certainly not retarded.I agree it reflects badly on atheists when such language is carelessly bandied about.Young earth creationism,if that is what you have concluded to be true,is particularly perplexing to me as it implies a massive conspiracy by the scientific community for no obvious gain,but hey the right to believe that is far more important than alleviating the bemusement of some atheists..

[Maugena]

I think it's legal to teach children whatever people want to teach them.

Should it be though?

What if I choose to invent my own language and only teach it to my kid, and when s/he grows up s/he can't communicate with anyone except me. Should that be allowed?

The problem isnt you teaching them your language, the problem is how you managed to get them to learn ONLY your language. Pretty sure language development is learned through a combination of parents, peers (yup they learn from the other learners) and the plethora of environmental influences/learning points (TV, internet, family, friends, random cafe encounters, pre-school techers, and many many more things); sure parents have a strong influence but are far from the only one.

I would "homeschool" the kid and make sure s/he didn't have contact anyone but me, and only speak the invented language around the kid. Until s/he turns 18 when I'd kick her out to the real world.

But hey, it's my choice, I can teach whatever I want to my kid.

That would be sadistically funny. I wouldn't approve, but I'd get a quick chuckle before I got serious about it.

In all seriousness, though, there totally should be a nationally mandated level of education everywhere.
Citizens should be intellectually stimulated only with the intention of creating a sense of productivity.
They should be able to converse with the rest of the nation using the nation's own language, of course, but, there's no harm in making and speaking your own language-it can be productive(disregarding the fact that you made a language... I'm speaking about the other potential benefits).

It just occasionally sort of hits me that, here we are - a species that has begun mastering space travel, cured diseases, created a global communication network that everyone can use - and yet, there still are people who against all evidence believe the entire universe was created 6000 years ago by a magical creature...

.....Because God isn't a magical creature.....

You're right, it's merely an overblown concept.

I'm not moderating in this thread (so let's get that out of the way). As far as I'm concerned, respectful discussion about religion is fine. Just like respectful discussion about gay marriage is fine.

Creationism (ISM) is not respectable, I agree with that, and it has no place in the scientific community and should not be taught in schools. Let's get that out of the way too.

Creationists should be taken on an individual basis, not lumped together and given no respect, especially when a creationist is not pushing his or her agenda. You can disrespect the idea without disrespecting the people who believe the idea. This thread wasn't created by a creationists. It was created by whatever pimpdave happens to be today (presumably atheist).

Creationists should be lumped together. Anyone that believes in something absurd is foolish, no exceptions. They may be respectable in other areas, sure, but in that, no.
Let's be serious for just a moment. You think that freedom of thought is a good thing, right? Well, it is very much a double-edged sword. It's just as easy for people to accept bullshit as it is for people to accept fact. When bullshit spreads, facts (and ultimately progress) may be lost. (See: The Middle Ages)
There should be an ever-present, infallible, universal mandate that keeps humanity's logic in check, in my opinion. If not, things would most definitely get out of hand for the worse.

I like the word mandate right now, if you couldn't already tell. XO
Supreme authority in the form of logical reasoning, not from a supposed intangible creature.

/endhalf-assedrant

[john9blue]

lemme play semi-devil's-advocate here

what's wrong with an ordinary person believing something stupid? why is it so bad for a working-class individual to believe something that is probably wrong? they aren't a "danger" to others... in fact, if they try to convince others that their beliefs are true, they will probably fail due to a lack of coherent reasoning.

further... what is wrong with an academic believing something stupid? they too will fail. that's how the marketplace of ideas works.

[tkr4lf]

This doesn't necessarily pertain to this thread, but I thought I should post it anyway.

People always seem to worship rationality and logic, as if they're the be all to end all.

Here's a good quote I quite enjoy from Einstein, someone who should be pretty well respected by most around here.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.

[chang50]

lemme play semi-devil's-advocate here

what's wrong with an ordinary person believing something stupid? why is it so bad for a working-class individual to believe something that is probably wrong? they aren't a "danger" to others... in fact, if they try to convince others that their beliefs are true, they will probably fail due to a lack of coherent reasoning.

further... what is wrong with an academic believing something stupid? they too will fail. that's how the marketplace of ideas works.

Allowing for the fact you are playing devils advocate,that is an absurd analogy to make,marketplaces are applicable to economics,not philosophical ideas.What reason is there to think 'stupid' ideas will fare any less well than less stupid ones?Who decides anyway?Not one of your better efforts John.

[Maugena]

lemme play semi-devil's-advocate here

what's wrong with an ordinary person believing something stupid? why is it so bad for a working-class individual to believe something that is probably wrong? they aren't a "danger" to others... in fact, if they try to convince others that their beliefs are true, they will probably fail due to a lack of coherent reasoning.

further... what is wrong with an academic believing something stupid? they too will fail. that's how the marketplace of ideas works.

A thought process can spread and eventually become the most followed thought process.
Whether or not it is right or wrong is irrelevant to the fact that people are sheep and need to be guided in the right direction.
It starts small and can get big, john. It's like a form of cancer.
You put too much faith in humanity. People are illogical.

Please elaborate on the second part, I'm not sure what it is that you were getting at there.

[Maugena]

This doesn't necessarily pertain to this thread, but I thought I should post it anyway.

People always seem to worship rationality and logic, as if they're the be all to end all.

Here's a good quote I quite enjoy from Einstein, someone who should be pretty well respected by most around here.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.

Rationality and logic is the be all and end all.
Intuition is merely filler where we are lacking certainty.

[BigBallinStalin]

lemme play semi-devil's-advocate here

what's wrong with an ordinary person believing something stupid? why is it so bad for a working-class individual to believe something that is probably wrong? they aren't a "danger" to others... in fact, if they try to convince others that their beliefs are true, they will probably fail due to a lack of coherent reasoning.

further... what is wrong with an academic believing something stupid? they too will fail. that's how the marketplace of ideas works.

Allowing for the fact you are playing devils advocate,that is an absurd analogy to make,marketplaces are applicable to economics,not philosophical ideas.What reason is there to think 'stupid' ideas will fare any less well than less stupid ones?Who decides anyway?Not one of your better efforts John.

Why?

[john9blue]

A thought process can spread and eventually become the most followed thought process.
Whether or not it is right or wrong is irrelevant to the fact that people are sheep and need to be guided in the right direction.
It starts small and can get big, john. It's like a form of cancer.
You put too much faith in humanity. People are illogical.

Please elaborate on the second part, I'm not sure what it is that you were getting at there.

Rationality and logic is the be all and end all.
Intuition is merely filler where we are lacking certainty.

these two posts are contradictory.

how do you think science works?

[john9blue]

Allowing for the fact you are playing devils advocate,that is an absurd analogy to make,marketplaces are applicable to economics,not philosophical ideas.What reason is there to think 'stupid' ideas will fare any less well than less stupid ones?Who decides anyway?Not one of your better efforts John.

substitute "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest" for "marketplace" and then tell me whether you agree

and then i'll show you how they are fundamentally similar

how can you be so sure that your ideas are right that you're willing to be so hostile to those who disagree... and yet be so afraid of ideological competitors? that is against the spirit of science, natural selection, and the free market.

[Maugena]

A thought process can spread and eventually become the most followed thought process.
Whether or not it is right or wrong is irrelevant to the fact that people are sheep and need to be guided in the right direction.
It starts small and can get big, john. It's like a form of cancer.
You put too much faith in humanity. People are illogical.

Please elaborate on the second part, I'm not sure what it is that you were getting at there.

Rationality and logic is the be all and end all.
Intuition is merely filler where we are lacking certainty.

these two posts are contradictory.

how do you think science works?

There isn't a contradiction here.

[john9blue]

these two posts are contradictory.

how do you think science works?

There isn't a contradiction here.

your first post claims that irrationality is like a virus caused by the groupthink tendency of humans, and it will spread until it becomes the dominant ideology regardless of whether it is logical.

your second post claims that logical rationality will always win out in the end.

choose one

[chang50]

lemme play semi-devil's-advocate here

what's wrong with an ordinary person believing something stupid? why is it so bad for a working-class individual to believe something that is probably wrong? they aren't a "danger" to others... in fact, if they try to convince others that their beliefs are true, they will probably fail due to a lack of coherent reasoning.

further... what is wrong with an academic believing something stupid? they too will fail. that's how the marketplace of ideas works.

Allowing for the fact you are playing devils advocate,that is an absurd analogy to make,marketplaces are applicable to economics,not philosophical ideas.What reason is there to think 'stupid' ideas will fare any less well than less stupid ones?Who decides anyway?Not one of your better efforts John.

Why?

It seems to me to be much easier to measure the correctness of ideas in a field such as economics,where the marketplace can be a good yardstick, than something far less tangible like philosophy.The difference would be of degree of course,I am not saying there is anything approaching consensus in economics.

[tkr4lf]

This doesn't necessarily pertain to this thread, but I thought I should post it anyway.

People always seem to worship rationality and logic, as if they're the be all to end all.

Here's a good quote I quite enjoy from Einstein, someone who should be pretty well respected by most around here.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.

Rationality and logic is the be all and end all.
Intuition is merely filler where we are lacking certainty.

It's cool if you disagree, I was merely posting a quote that I like.

I do have to disagree that intuition is just filler for when we are lacking certainty. The definition of intuition is basically knowing something without any sort of rational reason for knowing it. I mean, it happens. There's not really any evidence, well, just anecdotal evidence.

Eh, anyway, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this and I keep losing my train of thought going back and forth between my speed game and trying to compose this message, so I think I'll just end it now.

[Maugena]

your second post claims that logical rationality will always win out in the end.

Perhaps I just have a different idea of what "be all and end all" implies, then.
I would make it out to mean it is the right thing in all cases and scenarios, no exceptions... or at least, something along those lines.

[chang50]

Allowing for the fact you are playing devils advocate,that is an absurd analogy to make,marketplaces are applicable to economics,not philosophical ideas.What reason is there to think 'stupid' ideas will fare any less well than less stupid ones?Who decides anyway?Not one of your better efforts John.

substitute "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest" for "marketplace" and then tell me whether you agree

and then i'll show you how they are fundamentally similar

how can you be so sure that your ideas are right that you're willing to be so hostile to those who disagree... and yet be so afraid of ideological competitors? that is against the spirit of science, natural selection, and the free market.

My point is philosophical ideas cannot be easily measured.How does having correct philosophical ideas,if they even exist,effect survival?Sorry if you take forthright opinion for hostility,I am actually full of doubt and see that as a good thing.

[Maugena]

This doesn't necessarily pertain to this thread, but I thought I should post it anyway.

People always seem to worship rationality and logic, as if they're the be all to end all.

Here's a good quote I quite enjoy from Einstein, someone who should be pretty well respected by most around here.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.

Rationality and logic is the be all and end all.
Intuition is merely filler where we are lacking certainty.

It's cool if you disagree, I was merely posting a quote that I like.

I do have to disagree that intuition is just filler for when we are lacking certainty. The definition of intuition is basically knowing something without any sort of rational reason for knowing it. I mean, it happens. There's not really any evidence, well, just anecdotal evidence.

Eh, anyway, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this and I keep losing my train of thought going back and forth between my speed game and trying to compose this message, so I think I'll just end it now.

I'd call intuition a 'gut feeling', perhaps with experience backing it, but most definitely without absolute knowledge, one way or the other.