Zimmerman vs. DMX - Boxing Match?

[Phatscotty]

I seem to remember many here harping all over conservatives about their "civility" when Sarah Palin on talk radio were supposedly part of the blame in the Loughner/Giffords shooting for using the word "target" and using "bullseyes" on a map. I guess Spike Lee's direct calls for violence and even going out of his way to aid and abet and would be vigilante gets a pass but the largest stretch imaginable like in the Loughner instance will get you 2 weeks non-stop attacks. If Palin had only tweeted the political geographical tragets, she might have gotten a pass the same way Spike Lee gets a pass.

Does anyone think race has anything to do with Spike Lee getting away with it? (keep it respectful yall)

[Symmetry]

I seem to remember many here harping all over conservatives about their "civility" when Sarah Palin on talk radio were supposedly part of the blame in the Loughner/Giffords shooting for using the word "target" and using "bullseyes" on a map. I guess Spike Lee's direct calls for violence and even going out of his way to aid and abet and would be vigilante gets a pass but the largest stretch imaginable like in the Loughner instance will get you 2 weeks non-stop attacks. If Palin had only tweeted the political geographical tragets, she might have gotten a pass the same way Spike Lee gets a pass.

Does anyone think race has anything to do with Spike Lee getting away with it? (keep it respectful yall)

Can you post any evidence that he directly called for violence? Or is this another made-up tidbit you've drunk the kool-aid on?

Also, I'm not sure Lee is getting a pass on this, there seems to be significant levels of criticism. Check out his twitter feed (warning, contains significant amounts of racist language, unsurprisingly):

Twitter

[saxitoxin]

Some information I learned today:

1. I heard one radio program pronouncing his name as the Hispanic name of "Jorge" instead of the English name of "George". Which one is the correct pronunciation? If it's the first, then the media has REALLY gotten this wrong and are actively trying to paint him as white.

2. Apparently Zimmerman's voter registration card has him listed as Hispanic (not white) AND as a Democrat.

3. Spike Lee mis-tweeted Zimmerman's address which caused an elderly couple to have to leave their home in fear of their lives. Where is the call for civility from the left to stop all of these violent protestors?

You won't hear calls for civility because the conversation leaders on the left are goading their followers down an extremist path to achieve short-term political gains for themselves.

In any non-policy based event, an extremist will argue an ideology, a moderate will argue a situation. The goal of an extremist isn't to resolve the immediate situation, the situation is something to leverage for the creation of power centers (usually the enactment of new laws and/or the abolition of existing laws).

Natty and Aradhus are correctly classified as extremists based on their almost robotlike monotony of name calling and making societal judgements. You and Scott are also extremists based on the introduction of comparative morality (Sarah Palin?). These are all arguments in defense of an ideology.

BvP and TGD, on the other hands, are moderates as they've been arguing situational dynamics.

[Phatscotty]

We are calling for civility, and reminding people of the previous rules that were stated, most recently in the loughner/giffords instance. All of this information that follows is a direct result of Spike Lee's tweet.

Lee retweeted two messages claiming to be the address of the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin. The messages were quickly re-posted all over Twitter, some with threatening messages directed at Zimmerman, including “#Dead“ and ”Let’s turn up the heat on his b-tch ass.”

It later emerged that the address Lee posted was not in fact Zimmerman’s residence, but the home of an elderly couple now fearful for their safety. According to the Orlando Sentinel, the couple have temporarily moved into a hotel to escape the hate mail they’re now receiving, as well as any possible danger.

The messages were still visible on Lee’s Twitter account Wednesday afternoon, five days after they first appeared. Lee — who has more than 240,000 followers — has since written and re-posted dozens of messages about Martin, but none that appear to retract or apologize for the address tweets.

Intrestingly, a new 911 surveillance tape has been "leaked" and it shows Zimmerman apparently not having gashes to the back of his head, but he is handcuffed, and his shirt appears to be clean? I haven't seen the video available on the internet yet but I'm sure it's just matter of time. I will get it as soon as I can

[Symmetry]

We are calling for civility, and reminding people of the previous rules that were stated, most recently in the loughner/giffords instance. All of this information that follows is a direct result of Spike Lee's tweet.

Lee retweeted two messages claiming to be the address of the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin. The messages were quickly re-posted all over Twitter, some with threatening messages directed at Zimmerman, including “#Dead“ and ”Let’s turn up the heat on his b-tch ass.”

It later emerged that the address Lee posted was not in fact Zimmerman’s residence, but the home of an elderly couple now fearful for their safety. According to the Orlando Sentinel, the couple have temporarily moved into a hotel to escape the hate mail they’re now receiving, as well as any possible danger.

The messages were still visible on Lee’s Twitter account Wednesday afternoon, five days after they first appeared. Lee — who has more than 240,000 followers — has since written and re-posted dozens of messages about Martin, but none that appear to retract or apologize for the address tweets.

Intrestingly, a new 911 surveillance tape has been "leaked" and it shows Zimmerman apparently not having gashes to the back of his head, but he is handcuffed, and his shirt appears to be clean? I haven't seen the video available on the internet yet but I'm sure it's just matter of time. I will get it as soon as I can

So just to recap, he didn't, as you claim, call for violence? Keep slinging the mud, some of it might stick.

[saxitoxin]

We are calling for civility

Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

In any case, the label "extremist" isn't a synonym for "bad person." All bodies politic have to have extremists to advance in one direction or the other, without which society would stagnate. Me simply recognizing you and Natty as extremists or BvP and TGD as moderates (at least in this situation) isn't a judgement that Natty is a worse person than BvP or visa versa.

[BigBallinStalin]

You can move my theory all over your praxis any time you want, honey.

[Phatscotty]

We are calling for civility

Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

I did not use them to to say anything or push anything, and it's not a response to make Trayvon look negative, it's a direct response to the media turning him into a 12 year old.

[Symmetry]

We are calling for civility

Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

I did not use them to to say anything or push anything, and it's not a response to make Trayvon look negative, it's a direct response to the media turning him into a 12 year old.

Weren't you posting pictures of some other dude to turn him into a gangsta thug? You could at least come out and admit that a lot of the sources you've been using for the last few days have been forgeries. You saw what they wanted you to think, and then disseminated it. I'm not sure you're the best person to be complaining about media disinformation on this case.

[Phatscotty]

We are calling for civility

Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

I did not use them to to say anything or push anything, and it's not a response to make Trayvon look negative, it's a direct response to the media turning him into a 12 year old.

Weren't you posting pictures of some other dude to turn him into a gangsta thug? You could at least come out and admit that a lot of the sources you've been using for the last few days have been forgeries. You saw what they wanted you to think, and then disseminated it. I'm not sure you're the best person to be complaining about media disinformation on this case.

I don't know which pictures you mean, but the one I did post here was half incorrect and half correct. What I saw was a current picture, which I was anxious to see from day 1. The picture in question came from a person on twitter, and not exactly from the media which we are all talking about. I think I referred in the OP to it as "mainstream media"

[Symmetry]

We are calling for civility

Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

I did not use them to to say anything or push anything, and it's not a response to make Trayvon look negative, it's a direct response to the media turning him into a 12 year old.

Weren't you posting pictures of some other dude to turn him into a gangsta thug? You could at least come out and admit that a lot of the sources you've been using for the last few days have been forgeries. You saw what they wanted you to think, and then disseminated it. I'm not sure you're the best person to be complaining about media disinformation on this case.

I don't know which pictures you mean, but the one I did post here was half incorrect and half correct. What I saw was a current picture, which I was anxious to see from day 1. The picture in question came from a person on twitter, and not exactly from the media which we are all talking about. I think I referred in the OP to it as "mainstream media"

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that you received false information from twitter and posted it to a load of other people, and don't think you should apologise? Kind of like Spike Lee, right?

[Phatscotty]

No. There seems to have been some false information mixed in with the correct information. Both images were part of the same picture.

[thegreekdog]

We are calling for civility

Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

In any case, the label "extremist" isn't a synonym for "bad person." All bodies politic have to have extremists to advance in one direction or the other, without which society would stagnate. Me simply recognizing you and Natty as extremists or BvP and TGD as moderates (at least in this situation) isn't a judgement that Natty is a worse person than BvP or visa versa.

I got angry at being characterized as a moderate, but the "at least in this situation" part of Saxi's post made me much happier.

[kentington]

We are calling for civility

Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

In any case, the label "extremist" isn't a synonym for "bad person." All bodies politic have to have extremists to advance in one direction or the other, without which society would stagnate. Me simply recognizing you and Natty as extremists or BvP and TGD as moderates (at least in this situation) isn't a judgement that Natty is a worse person than BvP or visa versa.

I got angry at being characterized as a moderate, but the "at least in this situation" part of Saxi's post made me much happier.

When compared to them aren't you a bit moderate?

[Phatscotty]

Greek is usually pretty moderate.

[thegreekdog]

We are calling for civility

Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

In any case, the label "extremist" isn't a synonym for "bad person." All bodies politic have to have extremists to advance in one direction or the other, without which society would stagnate. Me simply recognizing you and Natty as extremists or BvP and TGD as moderates (at least in this situation) isn't a judgement that Natty is a worse person than BvP or visa versa.

I got angry at being characterized as a moderate, but the "at least in this situation" part of Saxi's post made me much happier.

When compared to them aren't you a bit moderate?

In this thread? Apparently I am. In other threads? Not so much. For example, I agree with Greecepwns theory that we need 62,000 representatives in the House.

In this thread, I like to think that the thing happened; we don't know why it happened and we still don't have all the facts. Politicians on both sides are using it to their advantage. Extremists on both sides are making ridiculous assertions.

[Phatscotty]

We are calling for civility

Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

In any case, the label "extremist" isn't a synonym for "bad person." All bodies politic have to have extremists to advance in one direction or the other, without which society would stagnate. Me simply recognizing you and Natty as extremists or BvP and TGD as moderates (at least in this situation) isn't a judgement that Natty is a worse person than BvP or visa versa.

I got angry at being characterized as a moderate, but the "at least in this situation" part of Saxi's post made me much happier.

When compared to them aren't you a bit moderate?

In this thread? Apparently I am. In other threads? Not so much. For example, I agree with Greecepwns theory that we need 62,000 representatives in the House.

In this thread, I like to think that the thing happened; we don't know why it happened and we still don't have all the facts. Politicians on both sides are using it to their advantage. Extremists on both sides are making ridiculous assertions.

do you differentiate which side is calling for violence, making death threats, tweeting home addresses, raising bounties, calling for kidnapping, making dead or alive posters, and actually (obviously imo) exploiting the death .....from which side posted a photograph?

[saxitoxin]

do you differentiate which side is calling for violence, making death threats, tweeting home addresses, raising bounties, calling for kidnapping, making dead or alive posters, and actually (obviously imo) exploiting the death .....from which side posted a photograph?

A person engaged in an ideological struggle will perceive the event as a battle between two "sides." This could be good vs. evil, left vs. right, right vs. wrong, etc. He may respond to attacks against his side by counter-accusations [e.g. "racist!"], or, by initiating a parade of horribles to showcase the net moral superiority of his side. For the extremist, the goal is to leverage the event to capture power centers for his camp or side.

A person engaged in a situational debate is only concerned with the immediate facts of the case and doesn't perceive a battle of "sides" but a debate between a variety of actors, each with a unique perspective. For the moderate, there aren't two camps representing a clash of cultural values, but a variety of pieces moving independently on the board. The event can be understood by itself, without reference to other events.

[Phatscotty]

do you differentiate which side is calling for violence, making death threats, tweeting home addresses, raising bounties, calling for kidnapping, making dead or alive posters, and actually (obviously imo) exploiting the death .....from which side posted a photograph?

A person engaged in an ideological struggle will perceive the event as a battle between two "sides." This could be good vs. evil, left vs. right, right vs. wrong, etc. He may respond to attacks against his side by counter-accusations [e.g. "racist!"], or, by initiating a parade of horribles to showcase the net moral superiority of his side. For the extremist, the goal is to leverage the event to capture power centers for his camp or side.

A person engaged in a situational debate is only concerned with the immediate facts of the case and doesn't perceive a battle of "sides" but a debate between multilateral actors, each with a unique perspective. For the moderate, there aren't two camps representing a clash of cultural values, but a variety of pieces moving independently on the board. The event exists independently of other events.

haha saxi. All this side stuff started with YOU! Greek ran with it. Of course this is all about the Zimmerman side and the Trayvon side, is it not? I tried to be careful to point out when i thought something compared to when we know something, and many other people are policing that as well. We have some waiting to do and time to fill until April 10th.



There are always 3 sides to every story. One person's side, the other person's side, and the truth's side.

Also wanted to throw these in here (2 different sides )

[saxitoxin]

do you differentiate which side is calling for violence, making death threats, tweeting home addresses, raising bounties, calling for kidnapping, making dead or alive posters, and actually (obviously imo) exploiting the death .....from which side posted a photograph?

A person engaged in an ideological struggle will perceive the event as a battle between two "sides." This could be good vs. evil, left vs. right, right vs. wrong, etc. He may respond to attacks against his side by counter-accusations [e.g. "racist!"], or, by initiating a parade of horribles to showcase the net moral superiority of his side. For the extremist, the goal is to leverage the event to capture power centers for his camp or side.

A person engaged in a situational debate is only concerned with the immediate facts of the case and doesn't perceive a battle of "sides" but a debate between multilateral actors, each with a unique perspective. For the moderate, there aren't two camps representing a clash of cultural values, but a variety of pieces moving independently on the board. The event exists independently of other events.

haha saxi. All this side stuff started with YOU! Greek ran with it. Of course this is all about the Zimmerman side and the Trayvon side, is it not?

I don't perceive the existence of two sides. I perceive a large number of pieces moving independently of each other. For instance, (1) the Black Panthers have offered a bounty. (2) Martin's parents say they don't want extrajudicial punishment and reject the Black Panthers but want Zimmerman arrested. (3) I say I think Zimmerman shouldn't be charged with a crime at all but he should be publicly shamed and held to account in a civil trial. (4) Patches believes [I think] Zimmerman was justified. (5) BvP [as far as I can tell] seems undecided. I perceive at least 5 different actors moving moving independently of each other and, I assume, there are a large number in addition to that.

For the extremist, these can all be divided into two neat camps, one of which is right and one of which is wrong. The struggle is an ageless ideological war between two competing worldviews and the actual event is just one episode in that struggle. For me the event is the totality of struggle and exists independently of any other event that has occurred before, or will occur after.

Again, though, this is just to identify you, NS, VO, Natty and Aradhus as extremists (on this issue). It's not to say the extremist approach is wrong or bad. "Bad" is not a synonym of "extremist" when I check the thesaurus.

[Phatscotty]

At the moment, I think the odds of Zimmerman catching a manslaughter case are rising.

You should be giving warm up pep-talks to the jury that will serve on this one! I would have a lot more confidence justice will be served.

[patches70]

(4) Patches believes [I think] Zimmerman was justified.

No, I have no idea if he was justified or not, I'm just looking at it from the legal standpoint. The mob wants Zimmerman arrested and tried. Tried for what? Murder? If so, what degree? People need to get past their emotions to see clearly.

What I believe is that people aren't supposed to be arrested and tried on the whims of the mob. I believe in the rule of law, not groups of people's desire ruling law.


And our leaders should be calming people down, not inciting more rage. This is just a game to them, a game they think they can control.

Thomas Sowell put it well enough for what I believe-
"The man who shot the black teenager in Florida may be as guilty as sin, for all I know — or he may be innocent, for all I know. We pay taxes so that there can be judges and jurors who sort out the facts. We do not need Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton or the President of the United States spouting off before the trial has even begun. Have we forgotten the media's rush to judgment in the Duke University "rape" case that blew up completely when the facts came out?"

[natty dread]

Interesting how Phat S. instantly dismissed my points as "those have to be lies!!!111" without providing any evidence as to their supposed falsehood, and went right on back to spreading his ugly rhetoric...

Why is that, I wonder. Were my points too embarrassing for Phat S. to address? Did they perhaps too accurately point out the flaws in his rhetoric, I wonder?

[Baron Von PWN]

Since no one answered my question I decided to look it up.

In Florida you are permitted to carry a concealed firearm. However open carry is not allowed.

So this raises the question, how was Martin to know Zimmerman had a gun? How does Zimmerman get his gun out while he's on the ground getting pounded by Martin? Also what exactly does concealed mean? Does tucked into your waistband count?

In my mind this raises the question of whether or not Zimmerman either revealed or pulled his gun on Martin, which then caused Martin to jump him.

I would suspect Zimmerman had pulled or at least partially pulled out his gun when he and Martin started fighting. I don't see how he would be able to get his gun out to shoot Martin unless it was already in hand. Especially if his head was being "pounded" into the pavement as people have suggested.

Now I don't know how Zimmerman was carrying his gun, or even what kind of gun it was. Both those factors could make putting it into action much easier. If he just had it in his pocket and it has a relatively easy to disengage safety, or if the safety was already disengaged. However if he had some kind of holster it gets trickier.

Anyone with more experience with guns care to shed some light here?

I don't know what happened in the case, I hadn't even heard about it till I logged into CC. However I find myself suspicious of Zimmerman's story ;

he claims this kid(half Zimmerman's weight and 6,3 kid must be a bean pole) first runs away, and then comes back and attacks him while his back is turned but only after uttering some cheesy bad guy line and pummels him, and then Zimmerman somehow gets his gun out after having been jumped essentially by surprise.

Then you have the contradictory story from the girlfriend. None of the other witnesses seem to know how the altercation started. Allot of what we know of the story seems to be on Zimmerman's word.

Colour me suspicious.

[Phatscotty]

Trayvon's dad says the police told him that according to Zimmerman after he was shot he said "you got me"