78-81 Communists in Congress?

[pmchugh]

Millions of people were sent to fight in the cold war? Nobody told me

Eastern Europe, Greece, Malaysia, The Middle East, Korea, Cuba, Tibet, Laos, Vietnam, Guatemala, The Congo, Angola, Somalia, Ethiopia, Grenada, Nicaragua, and El Salvador

you should at least be aware of Vietnam?

Those are places scotty, well done.

Also you might want to check the size of the British army.

[Phatscotty]

Millions of people were sent to fight in the cold war? Nobody told me

Eastern Europe, Greece, Malaysia, The Middle East, Korea, Cuba, Tibet, Laos, Vietnam, Guatemala, The Congo, Angola, Somalia, Ethiopia, Grenada, Nicaragua, and El Salvador

you should at least be aware of Vietnam?

Those are places scotty, well done.

Also you might want to check the size of the British army.

I don't know why you think I am talking about Britain.....but I'm not.

Just curious, does this guy hit a few threads with you?

[BigBallinStalin]

Wow, guys.

From what I understand, there's early socialism as expressed by Marx and Hegel. Applied early socialism was Communism, which took various forms like the Bolsheviks and their Soviet Union (which was and eventually morphed into various forms of autocracy or anacracy). Autocracy would be one guy largely in power, like Stalin. Anacracy would be an elite which holds the reins of political power (like Cambodia 1993-2012). (see Polity Index IV). Note: the opposite of autocracy would be democracy.


So, socialism is this proposed economic system, and Communism was the political application of that economic system. For the Chinese, Mao and others re-interpretted Marx's writings to "un-Westernize" it, so that it made "sense" in their culture. Then the Chinese had "Communism" as they applied it. In other words, "Communism" isn't this one object or meaning.

[BigBallinStalin]

On topic:

Russian/Soviet Communism is distinct from US Progressivism in the sense that the politicians behind each ideology had different means for attaining their goals. They had to operate through different political institutions (i.e. rules of the game), so I'm hesitant to say that the US Progressives are Communists; however, the ideologies are very similar.

James C. Scott (A MARXIST!!! but not quite) wrote this book called Seeing Like a State. He describes the "high modernist ideology" which basically is the view that you can prescribe a plan for many people and perceive that it will succeed. It's like treating people as pieces on a chess board. We could call this ideology "social engineering" where political means are used to shape people's decisions (usually by force).

In conclusion, the US Progressives and the Communists had in common the high modernist ideology, but it's erroneous to say that those two groups are the same. There's different meanings behind each of those words. (I'm also assuming that these politicians of both groups were well-intended, thus did not seek to enrich themselves--haha).

If the politicians of both groups did not have good intentions, then it could be the case that the means were different but the ends were the same; therefore, the US Progressives of this bent are pretty much Communists of the same bad intentions. In that sense, Allen West would be correct in his labeling.)

[Mr_Adams]

Waht's he smoking? It ain't tobacco. And Roosevelt was a socialist piece of crap. one of our worst leaders ever. Executive order 6102, anybody?

[Phatscotty]

Wow, guys.

From what I understand, there's early socialism as expressed by Marx and Hegel. Applied early socialism was Communism, which took various forms like the Bolsheviks and their Soviet Union (which was and eventually morphed into various forms of autocracy or anacracy). Autocracy would be one guy largely in power, like Stalin. Anacracy would be an elite which holds the reins of political power (like Cambodia 1993-2012). (see Polity Index IV). Note: the opposite of autocracy would be democracy.


So, socialism is this proposed economic system, and Communism was the political application of that economic system. For the Chinese, Mao and others re-interpretted Marx's writings to "un-Westernize" it, so that it made "sense" in their culture. Then the Chinese had "Communism" as they applied it. In other words, "Communism" isn't this one object or meaning.

good information. But generally speaking, anyone who invokes Marx is fair game to be called a Communist or at least have commie sympathies. As you pointed out I am aware young people get confused and are brand new to the world and all that and might think Communism rocks, but those aren't the fad commie's we are talking about.

[Phatscotty]

Waht's he smoking? It ain't tobacco. And Roosevelt was a socialist piece of crap. one of our worst leaders ever. Executive order 6102, anybody?

He's just your average stoner college student with all the answers for the real world who will lecture his parents about how things need to be . Don't know about yall, but all I heard was this guys professors bulllshit being zombied. West didn't even say Wilson founded the progressive movement.

[pmchugh]

Good to hear your wisdom once more, oh wise elder. Lemme guess, you smoked pot in college too?

[Phatscotty]

Good to hear your wisdom once more, oh wise elder. Lemme guess, you smoked pot in college too?

This isn't about me or pot. If this guy wants to be taken seriously, he should not be so eager (stupid) to feel cool and show off smoking pot inbetween his burnt out and boot-licked cow-towing goose-stepping professor induced philosophic brain farts.

[Baron Von PWN]

Wow, guys.

From what I understand, there's early socialism as expressed by Marx and Hegel. Applied early socialism was Communism, which took various forms like the Bolsheviks and their Soviet Union (which was and eventually morphed into various forms of autocracy or anacracy). Autocracy would be one guy largely in power, like Stalin. Anacracy would be an elite which holds the reins of political power (like Cambodia 1993-2012). (see Polity Index IV). Note: the opposite of autocracy would be democracy.


So, socialism is this proposed economic system, and Communism was the political application of that economic system. For the Chinese, Mao and others re-interpretted Marx's writings to "un-Westernize" it, so that it made "sense" in their culture. Then the Chinese had "Communism" as they applied it. In other words, "Communism" isn't this one object or meaning.

Holly shit, thank you. I was about to have a aneurism due to all the historical and political science abuse going on in this thread. I will be lazy and let you deal with the nonsense.

[Phatscotty]

If we can just agree that Marxism is Marxism, half of this would not be necessary.

[BigBallinStalin]

good information. But generally speaking, anyone who invokes Marx is fair game to be called a Communist or at least have commie sympathies. As you pointed out I am aware young people get confused and are brand new to the world and all that and might think Communism rocks, but those aren't the fad commie's we are talking about.

I disagree because it depends on why they "invoked Marx" and what Marxism means to them.

This is what Marxism means to me, concerning "back in the day" and currently:

Like I said, Communism is the application of early socialism--the kind of socialism which Marx/Hegel proposed in their Manifesto. Over time, adherents of Marxism have (1) strayed away from his appeal to the state for implementing positive social change and have sought substitutes like positive social change through community-based means, e.g. volunteer work, social awareness organizations, co-ops, etc. They view this substitute as promoting "politics" within the community and without formal governance.

Or, (2) others somewhat strayed from Marx yet still appeal to the state in implementing changes along less "socialist" means, e.g. anti-discrimination laws, antitrust law, more public education, and vague notions like "equal opportunity," etc.

(2) is "less socialist" because it is not like early socialism, which advocated for the state ownership over the means of production yet allowed people to retain personal property--but not land, businesses, etc. "Less socialism" is more about state control over the means of production, via regulation and certain legislation.

There's the issue of control rights and ownership rights. Depending on the magnitude of control that the government exerts over your property, your ownership rights could be only in name, i.e. you own it, but you can't choose how to use it.

(3) is the group which is "more" socialist in the sense that they advocate for the state de facto ownership over certain means of production, while the private sector has de jure ownership. In other words, non-government individuals and group can own hospitals and insurance companies, but given the high degree of control rights that the government enjoys, they have little control over "their" means of production.


US Progressives tend to be either (2) or (3), which can be construed as being "Communist," but that would be an inaccurate label since Communism refers to applied early socialism, which is the state ownership over the means of (nearly all) production. To me, calling them "socialists" is accurate enough, but remember, that term can be misleading because it depends on whether they're early Marxist, or (1), (2), or (3). (Calling them "socialist" is probably similar to the term "social democrats.")


(tl;dr)

show

[BigBallinStalin]

Holly shit, thank you. I was about to have a aneurism due to all the historical and political science abuse going on in this thread. I will be lazy and let you deal with the nonsense.

Or don't you mean, "I will be more efficient with my time by outsourcing this task to you"??? =D

[BigBallinStalin]

If we can just agree that Marxism is Marxism, half of this would not be necessary.

But language isn't that simple. It's interpreted subjectively and by many individuals, and their interaction leads to outcomes of a generally accepted term and/or of a term that is only accepted in certain groups, and blah blah blah. This post of mine tries to explain the meaning of Marxism as related to this thread.

[Baron Von PWN]

Holly shit, thank you. I was about to have a aneurism due to all the historical and political science abuse going on in this thread. I will be lazy and let you deal with the nonsense.

Or don't you mean, "I will be more efficient with my time by outsourcing this task to you"??? =D

More, the opportunity cost of talking to scotty is too high.

[pmchugh]

Good to hear your wisdom once more, oh wise elder. Lemme guess, you smoked pot in college too?

This isn't about me or pot. If this guy wants to be taken seriously, he should not be so eager (stupid) to feel cool and show off smoking pot inbetween his burnt out and boot-licked cow-towing goose-stepping professor induced philosophic brain farts.

I was only kiddin ya scotty.

[Phatscotty]

If we can just agree that Marxism is Marxism, half of this would not be necessary.

But language isn't that simple. It's interpreted subjectively and by many individuals, and their interaction leads to outcomes of a generally accepted term and/or of a term that is only accepted in certain groups, and blah blah blah. This post of mine tries to explain the meaning of Marxism as related to this thread.

1-10, how warm would you say Obama is to Marx and his ideas and theories.
1-10, how warm would you say Obama is to Adam Smith and his ideas and theories.

[Symmetry]

ITT thread, BBS mistakes Hegel for Engels, compounds them into Marx, then misunderstands all of the above's theories, and says that "progressives" are communists. Top class economic theory.

[Neoteny]

Posting in awesome thread.

[GreecePwns]

Seriously, BBS, you get a checkminus.jpg (too lazy to find the picture)

[Phatscotty]

Another intelligent Progressive response to West...

Someone has to ask Allen West, Republican candidate for Congress: “Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

While he might deny party membership, he would have difficulty disputing that his 22-years Army stint was living the Marxist dream.

West – the retired Army lietuenant colonel running the second time for Congress in U. S. House District 22 – never had to spend a day worrying about corporate bankruptcy, competition, layoffs or a bounced paycheck. Housing, healthcare and food were taken care of by the government.

I am not suggesting the Army should be any other way or that risking your life does not justify this economic security.

What I am saying is that West is hypocritical to question national health insurance, while having taken advantage of a VA healthcare system where everything is owned by the government and everyone works for the government.

It’s absurd to claim to be a spokesman for free enterprise when you choose a professional career of living off the government teat and are now trying to get another “gummint job.

West is a hypocrite.

Risking your life serving your country in the military is "living off the government teat"?????

I'm telling you guys, they are losing their minds. It's going to be a crazy, CRAZY Summer. Fasten your seatbelts gang! It's gonna be a repeat of the Progressive 30's.

[Symmetry]

Is this McCarthyism or not? Who are the Communists? Surely not simply political opponents of Mr West?

[Phatscotty]

Is this McCarthyism or not? Who are the Communists?

According to West, they are the members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

Caucus Members
Co-Chairs

Keith Ellison

Raúl Grijalva
Vice Chairs

Tammy Baldwin

Judy Chu

William “Lacy” Clay

Sheila Jackson-Lee

Chellie Pingree
Whip

Hank Johnson
Senate Member

Bernie Sanders
House Members

Karen Bass

Xavier Becerra

Earl Blumenauer

Corrine Brown

Michael Capuano

Andre Carson

Donna Christensen

Yvette Clarke

Emanuel Cleaver

David Cicilline

Steve Cohen

John Conyers

Elijah Cummings

Danny Davis

Peter DeFazio

Rosa DeLauro

Donna Edwards

Sam Farr

Chaka Fattah

Bob Filner

Barney Frank

Marcia Fudge

Luis Gutierrez

Janice Hahn

Maurice Hinchey

Mazie Hirono

Rush Holt

Michael Honda

Jesse Jackson, Jr.

Eddie Bernice Johnson

Marcy Kaptur

Dennis Kucinich

Barbara Lee

John Lewis

David Loebsack

Ben Ray Lujan

Carolyn Maloney

Ed Markey

Jim McDermott

James McGovern

Brad Miller

George Miller

Gwen Moore

Jim Moran

Jerrold Nadler

Eleanor Holmes Norton

John Olver

Frank Pallone

Ed Pastor

Jared Polis

Charles Rangel

Laura Richardson

Lucille Roybal-Allard

Bobby Rush

Linda Sanchez

Jan Schakowsky

Jose Serrano

Louise Slaughter

Pete Stark

Bennie Thompson

John Tierney

Nydia Velazquez

Maxine Waters

Mel Watt

Peter Welch

Frederica Wilson

Lynn Woolsey

[Symmetry]

Is this McCarthyism or not? Who are the Communists?

According to West, they are the members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

Caucus Members
Co-Chairs

Keith Ellison

Raúl Grijalva
Vice Chairs

Tammy Baldwin

Judy Chu

William “Lacy” Clay

Sheila Jackson-Lee

Chellie Pingree
Whip

Hank Johnson
Senate Member

Bernie Sanders
House Members

Karen Bass

Xavier Becerra

Earl Blumenauer

Corrine Brown

Michael Capuano

Andre Carson

Donna Christensen

Yvette Clarke

Emanuel Cleaver

David Cicilline

Steve Cohen

John Conyers

Elijah Cummings

Danny Davis

Peter DeFazio

Rosa DeLauro

Donna Edwards

Sam Farr

Chaka Fattah

Bob Filner

Barney Frank

Marcia Fudge

Luis Gutierrez

Janice Hahn

Maurice Hinchey

Mazie Hirono

Rush Holt

Michael Honda

Jesse Jackson, Jr.

Eddie Bernice Johnson

Marcy Kaptur

Dennis Kucinich

Barbara Lee

John Lewis

David Loebsack

Ben Ray Lujan

Carolyn Maloney

Ed Markey

Jim McDermott

James McGovern

Brad Miller

George Miller

Gwen Moore

Jim Moran

Jerrold Nadler

Eleanor Holmes Norton

John Olver

Frank Pallone

Ed Pastor

Jared Polis

Charles Rangel

Laura Richardson

Lucille Roybal-Allard

Bobby Rush

Linda Sanchez

Jan Schakowsky

Jose Serrano

Louise Slaughter

Pete Stark

Bennie Thompson

John Tierney

Nydia Velazquez

Maxine Waters

Mel Watt

Peter Welch

Frederica Wilson

Lynn Woolsey

Communists? Really?

[Symmetry]

You'd have thought they'd be more subtle infiltrating US politics than all becoming congressman and joining the same caucus. No wonder they flew under the radar of Homeland Security.