ObamaCare - exchanges ,report your states options!

[Symmetry]

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a free market healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than those in France or even the Netherlands (not UK or Canada; stop cherrypicking the worst of the worst), then it's really not worth arguing.

The following argument:

1. Switch to free market
2. Automatically more efficient

Is bullshit.

when my dad broke his arm in denmark, his arm was badly broken and needed immediate surgery. it took almost a week before he got surgery (REALLLY!? A WEEK!??). then, they didnt do it properly, and it had taken too long, so he had to convince a doctor that he still had problems. 6 months, and ~5 doctors later, one said "alright, if you are really in pain, i can take a look at it" (keep in mind that he is very used to pain and serious injury, and couldnt sleep without medication). The doctor realized the gravity of the situation, and scheduled him for surgery, where they grafted a metal plate to his forearm. To this day (10 years on), he has limited flexibility and strength of that arm, and it still hurts sometimes.
Hence socialized medicine removes the incentives to work, and so patients are left untreated.

[vodean]

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a free market healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than those in France or even the Netherlands (not UK or Canada; stop cherrypicking the worst of the worst), then it's really not worth arguing.

The following argument:

1. Switch to free market
2. Automatically more efficient

Is bullshit.

when my dad broke his arm in denmark, his arm was badly broken and needed immediate surgery. it took almost a week before he got surgery (REALLLY!? A WEEK!??). then, they didnt do it properly, and it had taken too long, so he had to convince a doctor that he still had problems. 6 months, and ~5 doctors later, one said "alright, if you are really in pain, i can take a look at it" (keep in mind that he is very used to pain and serious injury, and couldnt sleep without medication). The doctor realized the gravity of the situation, and scheduled him for surgery, where they grafted a metal plate to his forearm. To this day (10 years on), he has limited flexibility and strength of that arm, and it still hurts sometimes.
Hence socialized medicine removes the incentives to work, and so patients are left untreated.

you dont need to agree with it 100%... its still a true story.

[Symmetry]

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a free market healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than those in France or even the Netherlands (not UK or Canada; stop cherrypicking the worst of the worst), then it's really not worth arguing.

The following argument:

1. Switch to free market
2. Automatically more efficient

Is bullshit.

when my dad broke his arm in denmark, his arm was badly broken and needed immediate surgery. it took almost a week before he got surgery (REALLLY!? A WEEK!??). then, they didnt do it properly, and it had taken too long, so he had to convince a doctor that he still had problems. 6 months, and ~5 doctors later, one said "alright, if you are really in pain, i can take a look at it" (keep in mind that he is very used to pain and serious injury, and couldnt sleep without medication). The doctor realized the gravity of the situation, and scheduled him for surgery, where they grafted a metal plate to his forearm. To this day (10 years on), he has limited flexibility and strength of that arm, and it still hurts sometimes.
Hence socialized medicine removes the incentives to work, and so patients are left untreated.

you dont need to agree with it 100%... its still a true story.

I think you might find that it's the conclusion I disagree with. I have no opinion whatsoever on the validity of your story (unlike ViperOverlord's anecdote about Japanese healthcare- you should get him to tell you that one sometime, it's almost comically fun picking holes in how that one is obviously not true).

[thegreekdog]

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a free market healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than those in France or even the Netherlands (not UK or Canada; stop cherrypicking the worst of the worst), then it's really not worth arguing.

The following argument:

1. Switch to free market
2. Automatically more efficient

Is bullshit.

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a France or even Netherlands healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than what the United States currently has, then it's really not worth arguing.

American anti-exceptionalism! I just read an article today that US obesity is getting worse. HUZZAH!

[vodean]

you dont need to agree with it 100%... its still a true story.

I think you might find that it's the conclusion I disagree with. I have no opinion whatsoever on the validity of your story (unlike ViperOverlord's anecdote about Japanese healthcare- you should get him to tell you that one sometime, it's almost comically fun picking holes in how that one is obviously not true).

why do you think every example of communism EVER failed?

[thegreekdog]

you dont need to agree with it 100%... its still a true story.

I think you might find that it's the conclusion I disagree with. I have no opinion whatsoever on the validity of your story (unlike ViperOverlord's anecdote about Japanese healthcare- you should get him to tell you that one sometime, it's almost comically fun picking holes in how that one is obviously not true).

why do you think every example of communism EVER failed?

I have no idea what the Irish healthcare system is based upon (I'm an American - ignorance is bliss), but my brother had a similar experience when he had appendicitis in Ireland. He was put in a hospital room with 6 other people, nearly on top of one another, and had to wait two days for the surgery. It was a harrowing experience, he tells me.

[Symmetry]

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a free market healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than those in France or even the Netherlands (not UK or Canada; stop cherrypicking the worst of the worst), then it's really not worth arguing.

The following argument:

1. Switch to free market
2. Automatically more efficient

Is bullshit.

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a France or even Netherlands healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than what the United States currently has, then it's really not worth arguing.

American anti-exceptionalism! I just read an article today that US obesity is getting worse. HUZZAH!

Well there's always the World Health Organisation reports, which show exactly that.

But I've learned my lesson posting those stats. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it walk on it.

So, here's a Guardian report, with empirical data for examination:

How does US healthcare compare to the rest of the world?

[thegreekdog]

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a free market healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than those in France or even the Netherlands (not UK or Canada; stop cherrypicking the worst of the worst), then it's really not worth arguing.

The following argument:

1. Switch to free market
2. Automatically more efficient

Is bullshit.

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a France or even Netherlands healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than what the United States currently has, then it's really not worth arguing.

American anti-exceptionalism! I just read an article today that US obesity is getting worse. HUZZAH!

Well there's always the World Health Organisation reports, which show exactly that.

But I've learned my lesson posting those stats. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it walk on it.

So, here's a Guardian report, with empirical data for examination:

How does US healthcare compare to the rest of the world?

I notice none of those great empirical statistics show the United States healthcare system under a Dutch or French healthcare system.

[Symmetry]

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a free market healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than those in France or even the Netherlands (not UK or Canada; stop cherrypicking the worst of the worst), then it's really not worth arguing.

The following argument:

1. Switch to free market
2. Automatically more efficient

Is bullshit.

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a France or even Netherlands healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than what the United States currently has, then it's really not worth arguing.

American anti-exceptionalism! I just read an article today that US obesity is getting worse. HUZZAH!

Well there's always the World Health Organisation reports, which show exactly that.

But I've learned my lesson posting those stats. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it walk on it.

So, here's a Guardian report, with empirical data for examination:

How does US healthcare compare to the rest of the world?

I notice none of those great empirical statistics show the United States healthcare system under a Dutch or French healthcare system.

Now you're simply being pedantic. I should know, I'm an expert.

[Symmetry]

you dont need to agree with it 100%... its still a true story.

I think you might find that it's the conclusion I disagree with. I have no opinion whatsoever on the validity of your story (unlike ViperOverlord's anecdote about Japanese healthcare- you should get him to tell you that one sometime, it's almost comically fun picking holes in how that one is obviously not true).

why do you think every example of communism EVER failed?

Failed at what? Cuba and Vietnam seem to have done pretty well compared to the regimes that the US wanted them to have. The USSR vs Tsarist Russia? Communism wins hands down. China under Communist rule? Seems to be considered the greatest threat to US dominance in the next decade.

Don't get me wrong, I have a very healthy skepticism with regards to communism. I just don't dismiss its efficacy.

Still, I'm not sure how your dad's unwillingness to visit one of Denmark's private hospitals proves that communism is a failure.

[Phatscotty]

Look at how our health care system used to be before the government interfered.

My grandparents generation could afford healthcare for all 8 of my aunts and uncles, and my grandma still didn't have to work. You might guess that's because my grandpa was loaded with cash, but he wasn't. He worked in an aluminum factory making soda cans.

The free market worked in healthcare when we had a free market, and it was the best health care available for dirt cheap prices. And that is a fact

[Symmetry]

Look at how our health care system used to be before the government interfered.

My grandparents generation could afford healthcare for all 8 of my aunts and uncles, and my grandma still didn't have to work. You might guess that's because my grandpa was loaded with cash, but he wasn't. He worked in an aluminum factory making soda cans.

The free market worked in healthcare when we had a free market, and it was the best health care available for dirt cheap prices. And that is a fact

Dude, the "things were better in the old days" argument only works so far. Specifically, it works so far as listening to your grandparents and nodding respectfully. After that, I'm gonna have to ask for some stats, no disrespect to your grandma.

[PLAYER57832]

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a free market healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than those in France or even the Netherlands (not UK or Canada; stop cherrypicking the worst of the worst), then it's really not worth arguing.

The following argument:

1. Switch to free market
2. Automatically more efficient

Is bullshit.

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a France or even Netherlands healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than what the United States currently has, then it's really not worth arguing.

American anti-exceptionalism! I just read an article today that US obesity is getting worse. HUZZAH!

They were ALL presented multiple times early on, midway and at other points in this thread. You ignored the data then. Why should anyone bother now. And yes, France, Netherlands were both mentione..and discussed many times. (slong with links for more information).

The DATA shows, over and over that even the relatively poor UK system.. ALL systems in industrialized nations and even some in poorer nations are cheaper and provide overall better care than here. Even the idea that we necessarily provide the top care is not entirely true. We do well at some kinds of surgeries, expensive procedures, but not at everything.

And yes, that is based on DATA, not opinion. Sorry, you lose... and double for not even bothering to remember that we have had pretty much this exact conversation a few months ago.. and then before that.

[PLAYER57832]

Look at how our health care system used to be before the government interfered.

My grandparents generation could afford healthcare for all 8 of my aunts and uncles, and my grandma still didn't have to work. You might guess that's because my grandpa was loaded with cash, but he wasn't. He worked in an aluminum factory making soda cans.

Yeah, and the top procedure back then was?

I can gaurantee he could not pay for a knee replacement, open heart surgery, brain tumor removal, etc, etc,etc. He did not have a child who had to exist in a wheel chair or without limbs. He did not have a child with diabetes. He did not have to make a decision, with his wife to decide whether to bring a child who (at least in those days) would have little chance at even a real education. Doctors mostly would have made that decision for them.

The free market worked in healthcare when we had a free market, and it was the best health care available for dirt cheap prices.

The polio vaccine did not come from the free market. Cures for malaria did not come from the free market. Cures for cancers have not come from the free market. A lot of the orthopedic devices now marketed for large sums came from the Veteran's administration, not the free market, as the doctors learned to deal with war time injuries. (MAST suits is just one techology I can rattle right off that came out of Vietnahm. Other technology is coming out today, such as bandages that stop blood in Denmark,etc.)

And that is a fact

Only its not. Not at all. But no matter how much you have been shown this, you prefer to believe the delusions of the right wing.

[Symmetry]

Kind of the nail in the coffin for TGD's argument, however pedantic, or satirical, or whatever it was meant to be is that the US healthcare system doesn't even work in the US. A fact that both parties agree on, all American posters that I know agree on, and that is a truth universally acknowledged by all non-American posters.

[GreecePwns]

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a free market healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than those in France or even the Netherlands (not UK or Canada; stop cherrypicking the worst of the worst), then it's really not worth arguing.

The following argument:

1. Switch to free market
2. Automatically more efficient

Is bullshit.

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a France or even Netherlands healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than what the United States currently has, then it's really not worth arguing.

American anti-exceptionalism! I just read an article today that US obesity is getting worse. HUZZAH!

If the diet thing is the reason you're giving, fine. The cultural norm of eating fat foods is from the presence of corn in fucking everything due to the massive subsidies the industry enjoys. In a free food market, healthy foods are more able to compete price-wise with unhealthy foods, meaning Americans will have healthier diets. I admit that just importing a healthcare system as a one-size-fits-all plan is incorrect, but to say that obesity is simply an American thing because we just like fat foods is just as incorrect. We like fat foods because they're cheaper.

[Phatscotty]

Look at how our health care system used to be before the government interfered.

My grandparents generation could afford healthcare for all 8 of my aunts and uncles, and my grandma still didn't have to work. You might guess that's because my grandpa was loaded with cash, but he wasn't. He worked in an aluminum factory making soda cans.

Yeah, and the top procedure back then was?

I can gaurantee he could not pay for a knee replacement, open heart surgery, brain tumor removal, etc, etc,etc. He did not have a child who had to exist in a wheel chair or without limbs. He did not have a child with diabetes. He did not have to make a decision, with his wife to decide whether to bring a child who (at least in those days) would have little chance at even a real education. Doctors mostly would have made that decision for them.

The free market worked in healthcare when we had a free market, and it was the best health care available for dirt cheap prices.

The polio vaccine did not come from the free market. Cures for malaria did not come from the free market. Cures for cancers have not come from the free market. A lot of the orthopedic devices now marketed for large sums came from the Veteran's administration, not the free market, as the doctors learned to deal with war time injuries. (MAST suits is just one techology I can rattle right off that came out of Vietnahm. Other technology is coming out today, such as bandages that stop blood in Denmark,etc.)

And that is a fact

Only its not. Not at all. But no matter how much you have been shown this, you prefer to believe the delusions of the right wing.

Seems like you didn't even read what I said. I do not believe the right wing x a billion

I believe my grandpa x a billion

[Symmetry]

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a free market healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than those in France or even the Netherlands (not UK or Canada; stop cherrypicking the worst of the worst), then it's really not worth arguing.

The following argument:

1. Switch to free market
2. Automatically more efficient

Is bullshit.

Until anyone, literally ANYONE, can give an empirical argument that a France or even Netherlands healthcare system will be more efficient or effective than what the United States currently has, then it's really not worth arguing.

American anti-exceptionalism! I just read an article today that US obesity is getting worse. HUZZAH!

If the diet thing is the reason you're giving, fine. The cultural norm of eating fat foods is from the presence of corn in fucking everything due to the massive subsidies the industry enjoys. In a free food market, healthy foods are more able to compete price-wise with unhealthy foods, meaning Americans will have healthier diets. I admit that just importing a healthcare system as a one-size-fits-all plan is incorrect, but to say that obesity is simply an American thing because we just like fat foods is just as incorrect. We like fat foods because they're cheaper.

No, very seriously, having been on the right end of this debate against TGD and such truthful luminaries as Saxi and BBS, TGD does genuinely think that Americans are too fat to have universal healthcare.

If I posted that as a thread title, I'd be anti-American, but yeah, TGD thinks Americans are exceptionally fat, and thus healthcare for Americans is a bad idea and could never work.

[Phatscotty]

Health Care in USA worked just fine with a free market until the gov't killed the free market a long time ago.

The same thing happened to health care that happened to tuition once the government got involved. Of course, in the name access and affordability.
The same thing happened to health care that happened to real estate once the government got involved. Of course, in the name access and affordability.

How many people can access the things the government promised to make accessible now? Good job government!

WHATEVER THE GOVERNMENT TOUCHES EXPLODES IN PRICE! It happens over and over and over again. People who fail to observe this extremely simple reality are just stupid, and ya can't fix stupid!

If the government took over the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in 5 years.

[Symmetry]

Health Care in USA worked just fine with a free market until the gov't killed the free market a long time ago.

Scotty, I think I might have gotten to the route of your misunderstandings. Did you know that all of the people you've been arguing against all this time haven't simply been underlining random parts of their posts?

They've been providing links to evidence, support, facts, or opinions that backed up their arguments.

[thegreekdog]

Kind of the nail in the coffin for TGD's argument, however pedantic, or satirical, or whatever it was meant to be is that the US healthcare system doesn't even work in the US. A fact that both parties agree on, all American posters that I know agree on, and that is a truth universally acknowledged by all non-American posters.

Do you even know what my argument is? Here's my arguments:

(1) The Affordable Care Act is not socialized healthcare (or health insurance) - it's a corporate boondoggle.
(2) Assuming that a new system based on France or the Netherlands or England or Germany would work in the United States is not proof that such a system would work in the United States; even if you can show the system in France or the Netherlands or England or Germany is better for those countries than the US system is for the US.

If the diet thing is the reason you're giving, fine. The cultural norm of eating fat foods is from the presence of corn in fucking everything due to the massive subsidies the industry enjoys. In a free food market, healthy foods are more able to compete price-wise with unhealthy foods, meaning Americans will have healthier diets. I admit that just importing a healthcare system as a one-size-fits-all plan is incorrect, but to say that obesity is simply an American thing because we just like fat foods is just as incorrect. We like fat foods because they're cheaper.

Of course diet is not the reason I'm giving; I just mentioned it because I saw it right before I typed that post above. You hit the nail in the head (or "coffin" if you're Symmetry) when you said "I admit that just importing a healthcare system as a one-size-fits-all plan is incorrect[.]" There are a number of factors that make the United States different from Germany (and Germany different from the UK and the UK different from the Netherlands, etc.)

No, very seriously, having been on the right end of this debate against TGD and such truthful luminaries as Saxi and BBS, TGD does genuinely think that Americans are too fat to have universal healthcare.

If I posted that as a thread title, I'd be anti-American, but yeah, TGD thinks Americans are exceptionally fat, and thus healthcare for Americans is a bad idea and could never work.

I'm shocked that you have resorted to ad hominem attacks. SHOCKED!

[Phatscotty]

Health Care in USA worked just fine with a free market until the gov't killed the free market a long time ago.

Scotty, I think I might have gotten to the route of your misunderstandings. Did you know that all of the people you've been arguing against all this time haven't simply been underlining random parts of their posts?

They've been providing links to evidence, support, facts, or opinions that backed up their arguments.

How do I find a link to what my grandpa told me?

ya freak

[Symmetry]

Kind of the nail in the coffin for TGD's argument, however pedantic, or satirical, or whatever it was meant to be is that the US healthcare system doesn't even work in the US. A fact that both parties agree on, all American posters that I know agree on, and that is a truth universally acknowledged by all non-American posters.

Do you even know what my argument is? Here's my arguments:

(1) The Affordable Care Act is not socialized healthcare (or health insurance) - it's a corporate boondoggle.
(2) Assuming that a new system based on France or the Netherlands or England or Germany would work in the United States is not proof that such a system would work in the United States; even if you can show the system in France or the Netherlands or England or Germany is better for those countries than the US system is for the US.

If the diet thing is the reason you're giving, fine. The cultural norm of eating fat foods is from the presence of corn in fucking everything due to the massive subsidies the industry enjoys. In a free food market, healthy foods are more able to compete price-wise with unhealthy foods, meaning Americans will have healthier diets. I admit that just importing a healthcare system as a one-size-fits-all plan is incorrect, but to say that obesity is simply an American thing because we just like fat foods is just as incorrect. We like fat foods because they're cheaper.

Of course diet is not the reason I'm giving; I just mentioned it because I saw it right before I typed that post above. You hit the nail in the head (or "coffin" if you're Symmetry) when you said "I admit that just importing a healthcare system as a one-size-fits-all plan is incorrect[.]" There are a number of factors that make the United States different from Germany (and Germany different from the UK and the UK different from the Netherlands, etc.)

No, very seriously, having been on the right end of this debate against TGD and such truthful luminaries as Saxi and BBS, TGD does genuinely think that Americans are too fat to have universal healthcare.

If I posted that as a thread title, I'd be anti-American, but yeah, TGD thinks Americans are exceptionally fat, and thus healthcare for Americans is a bad idea and could never work.

I'm shocked that you have resorted to ad hominem attacks. SHOCKED!

Ah, when you refer to it as a corporate boondoggle (a vague American term) rather than socialised healthcare (another vague American term), you expect your argument to become clearer?

Universal healthcare works everywhere else, surely that should be reason enough to give it a shot in the only major industrialised nation that doesn't have it, spends more on helthcare, and gets less from its healthcare system?

[thegreekdog]

Ah, when you refer to it as a corporate boondoggle (a vague American term) rather than socialised healthcare (another vague American term), you expect your argument to become clearer?

Universal healthcare works everywhere else, surely that should be reason enough to give it a shot in the only major industrialised nation that doesn't have it, spends more on helthcare, and gets less from its healthcare system?

There you go! See? No ad hominems! I knew you could do it.

I'm not sure universal healthcare works everywhere else. I would be willing to try it in the United States if I thought that if it didn't work it would go away. However, as history has shown, once the government controls (or is involved in) something, the government is loathe to give it up.

[Symmetry]

Ah, when you refer to it as a corporate boondoggle (a vague American term) rather than socialised healthcare (another vague American term), you expect your argument to become clearer?

Universal healthcare works everywhere else, surely that should be reason enough to give it a shot in the only major industrialised nation that doesn't have it, spends more on helthcare, and gets less from its healthcare system?

There you go! See? No ad hominems! I knew you could do it.

I'm not sure universal healthcare works everywhere else. I would be willing to try it in the United States if I thought that if it didn't work it would go away. However, as history has shown, once the government controls (or is involved in) something, the government is loathe to give it up.

I would refer you to the situation in the UK, where the Coalition government has been moving to do exactly that- give up control to the private sector. I'm not sure if I can call on "History", but I can draw your attention to current events.

It's not popular, and it goes against pretty much all medical expertise. Hence why the Conservatives promised not to do it in the previous election, and why, when they went ahead and broke that promise, they got such a massive drubbing in the most recent elections.