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Postby flashleg8 on Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:48 pm

spurgistan wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:What does global warming have to do with entropy?


Everything. What we have right now (at least, are supposed to have) is a earth system that balances out over time. Solar heat enters, some is stored in the earth systemsome is reflected back out to the solar system, and some is reflected back out. A lot of fragile climate patterns (wind, ocean current, etc.) are reliant on this balance. Well, then mr cunning human and his combustion enter the story. Greenhouse gas emissions result in more heat being trapped in the system, and many of these fragile processes break down into entropy. And, as Sergeant Barnes would say, "When the system breaks down, WE break down." (Love that quote) In effect, climate change IS entropy, in that it's the breakdown of a (more or less) organizied system.


I completely disagree with you first premise - that the earth system balances out over time. Climate systems have changed on every known planet in the solar system. Our own system has changed many times. There is no "[supposed to be] balanced system". The ecosystem reacts to the change and life forms either adapt or die.
The greenhouse gas process is not an effect of entropy. You are using the term incorrectly.
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A new group of discussions

Postby luns101 on Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:09 pm

I thought this thread was dead, but it came back. Would it be safe to say it has been "resurrected"?
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Postby got tonkaed on Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:16 pm

forgive the jest of course....

but if this thread has been resurrected does that mean that pentecost for the christian side of this thread will including the spreading of the tounge of common sense....because ill certainly wait 40 more days if thats the case.
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dry humor

Postby luns101 on Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:18 pm

got tonkaed wrote:forgive the jest of course....

but if this thread has been resurrected does that mean that pentecost for the christian side of this thread will including the spreading of the tounge of common sense....because ill certainly wait 40 more days if thats the case.


Perhaps the secularists should lead by example...but of course, forgive the jest.
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Postby got tonkaed on Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:38 pm

lol luns...if i may, may i direct you toward just about every non mafia post ive made?


just messin with ya
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:45 pm

Guiscard wrote:
Kugelblitz22 wrote:Can you imagine the uproar if the science teachers marched into Sunday mass demanding that evolution be taught in the church?


I thought this thread was dead :D

That's an interesting point actually... Would any of the more militant theists like to respond? I strongly strongly doubt that evolution and the 'science' you are disagreeing with are taught on an equal basis in Sunday schools and suchlike.


Then expect the largest sectarian uprising the West has ever and will ever see.....
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:53 pm

Backglass wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:So, I'm insane because I believe my life has purpose, that I am more than the mere sum of my parts and that there is something greater than me to look up to and aspire to be like? I thought so! Seems you never heard of FAITH!


One does not have to believe in magical creatures to have a life FULL of purpose and joy. I do.

Jenos Ridan wrote:Seems you never heard of FAITH!


Blind faith is...well...for the blinded. I prefer to live with my eyes wide open and without biblical blinders.


Hardly 'blind' faith. I trust in a higher power because it is greater than the 'here and now'. And since the 'here and now' is undeniably larger than myself, I'd think you'll understand. My faith is not backed up by calulated facts (if it were, it wouldn't be faith), but by what I feel and think. If thoughts and emotions are naught but the reaction to stimuli, then why bother to wonder about the meaning of life? Such a purely nihilistic 'belief' is perhaps the worst kind of death, more so than the physical....
Last edited by Jenos Ridan on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:57 pm

Guiscard wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:My thought is, I'm far more concerned with the why than the how. I could very care less about how the universe came into being, I want to know why.


Ever stop to consider that there might not be a why?


It would seem that you are a nihilist. Why do we have thoughts and emotions if we didn't have souls? Reaction to stimuli? Then I might as well be dead, as life without reason is true madness.
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Postby got tonkaed on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:00 pm

honestly any kind of optimist at all can believe that theres no great cosmic purpose and still have plenty of reason for being. I dont believe theres anything greater beyond this life...but ill tell you what, this life has some amazing potential to be great. I dont need a greater miracle than the miracle that i have people that love me that i love back. There doesnt have to be some cosmic story for their to be value on life.
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Postby Backglass on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:05 pm

Jenos Ridan wrote:Hardly 'blind' faith. I trust in a higher power because it is greater than the 'here and now'.


A power that has never spoken or shown it supposed face to anyone but a few ancient people who happened to be alone at the time.

Jenos Ridan wrote:And since the 'here and now' is undeniably larger than myself, I'd think you'll understand.


Not really. Let me see if I follow. You don't understand the world around you, so you have faith in a creator?

Jenos Ridan wrote:My faith is not backed up by calulated facts (if it were, it would be faith), but by what I feel and think.


Agree 100%. Gods are the invention of mens minds.

Jenos Ridan wrote:If thoughts and emotions are naught but the reaction to stimuli, then why bother to wonder about the meaning of life? Such a purely nihilistic 'belief' is perhaps the worst kind of death, more so than the physical....


:lol: Why must there be gods and magic to ponder life and the universe? Such a purely religious "belief" is perhaps the worst kind of death...one that cheats you of truth and deludes you in living for fantasies.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:13 pm

So, you admit that you are nothing save for the sum of your parts? The sad fact is, if life has no point outside of itself, what reason should I have to continue the chain-reaction? It has no purpose, and any attempt to make purpose is failed from the start. I was once an athiest, back when I was a teenager. It left me dead on the inside. I refuse to have myself be so cold, hallow and lifeless again. How you manage to bury your pain is mind-boggling, but I imagine it involves a lot of iniquity.
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Postby got tonkaed on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:17 pm

i dont know, i suppose its a matter of perspective.

I dont think when i was a christian, i was able to value this life for all of the power that i believe it has an atheist. When you believe in some kind of life after this, and have some notion that your assured of it, what is the point of continued existence, under a different light that could be nihilism because youve already reached your peak.

When all we have is each other it makes every moment that much more important and every bond that much more lively. Life is dynamic when you realize this is your oppertunity, your moment to make good on everything that you want to. I think we are more than the sum of our parts. The greatness lies in our potential and in the relationships we have with one another.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:31 pm

Backglass wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:Hardly 'blind' faith. I trust in a higher power because it is greater than the 'here and now'.


A power that has never spoken or shown it supposed face to anyone but a few ancient people who happened to be alone at the time.


I gather you don't read scripture much.

Backglass wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:And since the 'here and now' is undeniably larger than myself, I'd think you'll understand.


Not really. Let me see if I follow. You don't understand the world around you, so you have faith in a creator?


No, I understand the world just fine. It is that fact there is a lot I can't control. This world is a dark, evil place full of hurt. Sure, I could turn back to my older atheist way, but I wouldn't be the man I am now. Instead, I'd always be empty and that sets of a chain-reaction of rage, lust, sorrow, repeat in order ad infinatum until death. I'd rather not go there again.

Backglass wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:My faith is not backed up by calulated facts (if it were, it wouldn't be faith), but by what I feel and think.


Agree 100%. Gods are the invention of mens minds..


No, the illusion of there being nothing greater than self is the invention of Your mind.

Backglass wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:If thoughts and emotions are naught but the reaction to stimuli, then why bother to wonder about the meaning of life? Such a purely nihilistic 'belief' is perhaps the worst kind of death, more so than the physical....


:lol: Why must there be gods and magic to ponder life and the universe? Such a purely religious "belief" is perhaps the worst kind of death...one that cheats you of truth and deludes you in living for fantasies.


There are quiet simply things science hasn't, isn't and in all likelyhood, will never explain. And as I said earlier, I don't care about the how; the only question important to me (and most people) is WHY! Since you desire to reduce all that is noble about man to equations and formulae, you are the one living in delusion. Do you actually feel that life it simply here then gone for no other reason than simple biological fact?
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Postby Backglass on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:33 pm

Jenos Ridan wrote:The sad fact is, if life has no point outside of itself, what reason should I have to continue the chain-reaction? It has no purpose, and any attempt to make purpose is failed from the start.


:lol: Again...why should drinking the kool-aid be a prerequisite to happiness? And why MUST there be a purpose anyway? We are here to live our lives, and thats it. We find joy and purpose in our families, in our kids, in just living and enjoying LIFE! No diety required. I don't find any of that the least bit sad.

Jenos Ridan wrote: I was once an athiest, back when I was a teenager. It left me dead on the inside. I refuse to have myself be so cold, hallow and lifeless again. How you manage to bury your pain is mind-boggling, but I imagine it involves a lot of iniquity.


Ahhh the jay response! All atheists must be in horrible anguish and terminally unhappy! :lol:

Just because you lived a screwed up teen life does not mean everyone else did. Hey...you found a way to be happy...good for you! Some people NEED a crutch to pull them up and help explain away the bad things that happen in life. But many other do not and were not "dead on the inside" in the first place.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:40 pm

Backglass wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:The sad fact is, if life has no point outside of itself, what reason should I have to continue the chain-reaction? It has no purpose, and any attempt to make purpose is failed from the start.


:lol: Again...why should drinking the kool-aid be a prerequisite to happiness? And why MUST there be a purpose anyway? We are here to live our lives, and thats it. We find joy and purpose in our families, in our kids, in just living and enjoying LIFE! No diety required. I don't find any of that the least bit sad.

Jenos Ridan wrote: I was once an athiest, back when I was a teenager. It left me dead on the inside. I refuse to have myself be so cold, hallow and lifeless again. How you manage to bury your pain is mind-boggling, but I imagine it involves a lot of iniquity.


Ahhh the jay response! All atheists must be in horrible anguish and terminally unhappy! :lol:

Just because you lived a screwed up teen life does not mean everyone else did. Hey...you found a way to be happy...good for you! Some people NEED a crutch to pull them up and help explain away the bad things that happen in life. But many other do not and were not "dead on the inside" in the first place.


All I can say is this, those who claim that they don't feel empty are simply lying to themselves. As for the crutch part, at least I have to desire and, therefore, the strength of will to seek after something noble in the midst of so much evil and chaos. In your view, I'm a weakling. In my view, you are deceived. In the end, it comes down to the old saying to the effect of the wise already got it and the fools refuse to heed it.
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Postby Backglass on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:42 pm

Jenos Ridan wrote:I gather you don't read scripture much.


No. But I do read Suess a lot to the kids.

Jenos Ridan wrote:No, I understand the world just fine. It is that fact there is a lot I can't control. This world is a dark, evil place full of hurt.


Yup, thats life bud.

Jenos Ridan wrote:Sure, I could turn back to my older atheist way, but I wouldn't be the man I am now. Instead, I'd always be empty and that sets of a chain-reaction of rage, lust, sorrow, repeat in order ad infinatum until death. I'd rather not go there again.


And I would rather you not as well. If believing in gods helps you keep on the straight and narrow, well go for it. Whatever it takes.

Jenos Ridan wrote:No, the illusion of there being nothing greater than self is the invention of Your mind.


I can imagine a godless universe. You cannot.

Jenos Ridan wrote:There are quiet simply things science hasn't, isn't and in all likelyhood, will never explain.


They said the same thing about procreation, disease, the planets. Give it time.

Jenos Ridan wrote: And as I said earlier, I don't care about the how; the only question important to me (and most people) is WHY! Since you desire to reduce all that is noble about man to equations and formulae, you are the one living in delusion.


:lol: "Reduce all that is noble about man to equations and forulae?!" Thanks so much for putting worlds in my mouth. Again the broad brush that an atheist somehow cannot enjoy music, the arts or the beauty of the world around us. It comical quite frankly. I just don't need a magical god to enjoy them.

Jenos Ridan wrote:Do you actually feel that life it simply here then gone for no other reason than simple biological fact?


I actually do. Do you actually believe that after you die you go to a fluffy white cloud where you play the harp and grovel at the feet of a god for eternity, along with billions of others?

Jenos Ridan wrote:All I can say is this, those who claim that they don't feel empty are simply lying to themselves.


Again with the inner torment. :roll: News flash: Not everyone feels empty on the inside without religion.

Jenos Ridan wrote:as for the crutch part, at least I have to desire and, therefore, the strength of will to seek after something noble in the midst of so much evil and chaos.


Huh? Is this how you reason away your cult? You are seeking something noble? Life is all around you...enjoy it. No need to seek fables and lore.

Jenos Ridan wrote:In your view, I'm a weakling. In my view, you are deceived. In the end, it comes down to the old saying to the effect of the wise already got it and the fools refuse to heed it.


In my view gods don't exist...thats all. You keep on believing if it helps you get through the day without your rage.
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A safe debate

Postby luns101 on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:51 pm

After some time of in-laws and wedding preparations...I think I'll return to the safe waters of atheism versus christianity debates here on the forums (at least for awhile). Backglass, where have you been?

Backglass wrote:A power that has never spoken or shown it supposed face to anyone but a few ancient people who happened to be alone at the time.


You and Jenos seem to be having a good discussion, but I was hoping to go back a little ways. Remember my question about, "what would you do if God revealed Himself"? I think you answered that you would have "no choice" but to believe. I'm starting to think that a skeptic would do no such thing, even if there were incontrovertible evidence.

Why do I think this:

1. God did reveal Himself through the magnificence of creation, skeptics discount that as natural processes and adaptation to environment.

2. God revealed Himself with miracles many times that superceded the laws of nature. This would prove that He had the authority and power to back up His claims. Some examples would be a universal flood, allowing a donkey to speak, parting the Red Sea, and the 10 plagues against Egypt. A skeptic would shrug this off and call it "magic".

3. God revealed Himself by speaking directly to man. He did this by having conversations with Adam & Eve, Moses, Elijah & other prophets. I think a skeptic would just say that the people who had these conversations would be classified as delusional or having some type of hallucination.

4. God revealed Himself directly by becoming a man in order to communicate to us. Christians believe that the 2nd person in the Godhead, the Son, became the man Christ Jesus. A skeptic would just simply say that's a silly story. Maybe Jesus was a good moral person, but nothing more.

5. God revealed Himeself by the power of the resurrection. In doing so, He proved that death had no power over Him. Skeptics would just simply say that the eyewitnesses either made the whole thing up, or were mistaken about the original death taking place.

God did reveal Himself in these ways and people today are trying to dismiss them as hocus-pocus. So my thinking on this is that even if God did reveal Himself by parting the clouds and saying "believe in me or go to Hell" most people would still not believe. They may be amazed for a short amount of time but after a little while they would try and explain it away by saying something like "wow, what a fantastic cloud formation that was".

Would you agree that it is more a matter of the will than the intellect to believe?
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Postby 2dimes on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:52 pm

I challenge both of you to put this crap on hold and go to the UCAbears thread and provide him with hope.

Since everyone is so packed with rays of sunshiney happieness on both fronts.
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Re: A safe debate

Postby Backglass on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:54 pm

luns101 wrote:After some time of in-laws and wedding preparations...I think I'll return to the safe waters of atheism versus christianity debates here on the forums (at least for awhile). Backglass, where have you been?


I was in Las Vegas all last week "sinning". Boy was it fun. :twisted:

How bout that wedding huh? Been fitted for your ball and chain yet? :lol: You should let me plan your bachelor party. ;)

...and none of your examples are "direct". Direct is a giant face in the cloud to the entire world at once (or some such). No smoke and mirrors or burning bushes for one. No dreams or voices at night. A true "GOD" wouldn't pussy foot around with hints and clues and hidden meanings.
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Postby Guiscard on Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:07 pm

Jenos Ridan wrote:All I can say is this, those who claim that they don't feel empty are simply lying to themselves.


You've managed to write off millions and millions of people there... I actually feel slightly insulted by the assertion that unless you are a theist you MUST feel empty and unfulfilled.

Why do you find it so repulsive that people can believe that we ARE only the sum total of our parts and that after death there IS nothing??? Does it scare you that people may actually not feel an obligation to act a certain way because of the results of that action when they die? We can still be moral without the suggestion of reward or punishment.

My own personal philosophy is something that I ponder frequently, but generally I live my the old 'do what you would have others do unto you' maxim (how very biblical of me :D). It sort of speaks for itself. If I go around killing others will as well. We need to abide by certain standards and morals for the good of society and for your own good, not because it was written in a Holy Book or spoken from a burning bush. I'm not saying that you can't take your morals from religion but I do think it is naive to think that atheism has none.

I can still find joy in things that I am passionate about, even if that joy is a chemical reaction in my brain.

As for a reason for living, you also don't have to be a theist to have one. Richard Dawkins Meme theory is one example which comes to mind...
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Re: A safe debate

Postby CrazyAnglican on Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:17 pm

Backglass wrote: A true "GOD" wouldn't pussy foot around with hints and clues and hidden meanings.


:-s How can you be an authority on the behavior of beings you don't believe in?
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Re: A safe debate

Postby vtmarik on Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:20 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:
Backglass wrote: A true "GOD" wouldn't pussy foot around with hints and clues and hidden meanings.


:-s How can you be an authority on the behavior of beings you don't believe in?


Objectivity.
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Re: A safe debate

Postby CrazyAnglican on Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:24 pm

vtmarik wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
Backglass wrote: A true "GOD" wouldn't pussy foot around with hints and clues and hidden meanings.


:-s How can you be an authority on the behavior of beings you don't believe in?


Objectivity.


How can you be objective, and have a preconceived notion?
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Re: A safe debate

Postby vtmarik on Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:44 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:
vtmarik wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
Backglass wrote: A true "GOD" wouldn't pussy foot around with hints and clues and hidden meanings.


:-s How can you be an authority on the behavior of beings you don't believe in?


Objectivity.


How can you be objective, and have a preconceived notion?


You can't.

Hence the reason the entire debate is pointless and stupid. Both sides have preconceived notions, hence neither side can be objective, hence this is all mental masturbation.

Personally, I'll stick to physical masturbation and call it a day.
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Re: A safe debate

Postby 2dimes on Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:49 pm

vtmarik wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
vtmarik wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:
Backglass wrote: A true "GOD" wouldn't pussy foot around with hints and clues and hidden meanings.


:-s How can you be an authority on the behavior of beings you don't believe in?


Objectivity.


How can you be objective, and have a preconceived notion?


You can't.

Hence the reason the entire debate is pointless and stupid. Both sides have preconceived notions, hence neither side can be objective, hence this is all mental masturbation.

Personally, I'll stick to physical masturbation and call it a day.
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