Poll on Marriage (Fed vs State vs. Church)

[AAFitz]

It's completely rational. I will take on your argument anytime, anywhere. (if your overall point is that faith is irrational)

My point is not that, try again.

your point is there is some proof God doesn't exist?

Not that either, but I don't think She does. What's your rationale for opposing gay marriage?

would you mind letting me in on your specific point before you change the subject? I will be happy to start a new line of conversation at that time.

His point was not that faith is irrational, but believing in something with zero evidence is.....and Im just guessing here.

[Phatscotty]

your point is there is some proof God doesn't exist?

Believing in something, simply because there is no proof it does not exist, in many ways, is probably the most basic definition of insanity that there is. Perhaps delusional fits more precisely, but is certainly the root of the very meaning of the word insanity.

Believing in something that is not true, with no proof, and no tangible evidence whatsoever, is certainly insane.

That being said, if it is true, you are possibly just lucky, or absolutely brilliant, but still, quite possibly, insane.

I never said that, nor do I believe that. I agree with you 100%. However,I think it's also insane the way you put words in peoples mouth. I just wanted to understand what Symm was saying before I stared making my own point, which I have not started yet....

Symm is experiencing some dodge-itis as getting an answer has taken about 6 posts...

[AAFitz]

your point is there is some proof God doesn't exist?

Believing in something, simply because there is no proof it does not exist, in many ways, is probably the most basic definition of insanity that there is. Perhaps delusional fits more precisely, but is certainly the root of the very meaning of the word insanity.

Believing in something that is not true, with no proof, and no tangible evidence whatsoever, is certainly insane.

That being said, if it is true, you are possibly just lucky, or absolutely brilliant, but still, quite possibly, insane.

I never said that, nor do I believe that. I agree with you 100%. However,I think it's also insane the way you put words in peoples mouth. I just wanted to understand what Symm was saying before I stared making my own point, which I have not started yet....

Symm is experiencing some dodge-itis as getting an answer has taken about 6 posts...

Im not putting words in anyone's mouth, and I think its insane(with your use of the word) that you suggested I did.

While you think Symm is being dodgy, I think he was quite clear and I think I understood what he meant just perfectly. I further assume he is not answering, because of that very fact....and that watching you ask for something that is quite clear....well...is quite fun.

Im again not putting words in ole symms mouth here...only speculating...and he is free to correct me if Ive guessed incorrectly

[Woodruff]

I'll just leave this here:
http://i.imgur.com/Xu7RL.jpg

.

But as long as there is kindness and understanding in religion, I guess we're ok:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/21/north-carolina-pastor-gay-rant-starvation_n_1533463.html

[Woodruff]

Why is gay marriage so radical?

They have to work just like anyone else. They have to pay taxes like anyone else, they have to follow all the same laws and adhere to the same standards as any heterosexual.

however, because they choose to be with someone of the same sex, society currently states that they are not entitled to marry and receive the tax incentive, they don't get any discounts or adjustments that a "traditional" married couple would receive..

This is a no brainer people.. Anyone who feels otherwise is short sighted and simple minded.

And for all of those individuals who are going to choose to bring up the religion card, ill put this is simply.

Religious texts agree that it is not your place to judge, that right is reserved for God (whichever faith you choose to follow). I can quote various lines which would support that.

Furthermore, Politics and Religion are suppose to be separate issues in the U.S. for those who don't remember church and state.. Marriage is a POLITICAL issue. Whether the church wants to allow it within the sanctity of their ESTABLISHMENT is a whole different beast of its own.

Many pro gay marriage people have made the point that if you are against same-sex marriage, you are homophobic.
Does the judging you talk about also include the people who judge those who wish to keep marriage traditional?

Marriage is definitely NOT a political issue.....absolutely not.

Yes...the sanctity of marriage and how traditional it is:
http://gawker.com/5909309/single-mother-bristol-palin-tells-obama-same+sex-marriage-is-wrong-because-kids-need-a-mom-and-dad

[Night Strike]

Here is an excellent article regarding how homosexuality is regarded from a Christian perspective:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2011/10/18/how-i-wish-the-homosexuality-debate-would-go/.

[Woodruff]

Here is an excellent article regarding how homosexuality is regarded from a Christian perspective:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2011/10/18/how-i-wish-the-homosexuality-debate-would-go/.

That is an excellent article regarding how homosexuality SHOULD BE regarded from a Christian perspective. While I disagree with that pastor, he is one whom, based on what he said in that article, I would respect. Unfortunately, he IS a radical within the religion.

[Lootifer]

Here is an excellent article regarding how homosexuality is regarded from a Christian perspective:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2011/10/18/how-i-wish-the-homosexuality-debate-would-go/.

+1 good article.

However do christians (smart one, like our Pastor here) claim exclusive use of the word and pragmatic modern implementation of marriage for themselves? Expanding this...

Should my apathetic agnostic marriage be called something else?

Should my friends hardline athiest marriage be called something else?

Should my Aunties homosexual marriage be called something else?

[Night Strike]

Here is an excellent article regarding how homosexuality is regarded from a Christian perspective:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2011/10/18/how-i-wish-the-homosexuality-debate-would-go/.

+1 good article.

However do christians (smart one, like our Pastor here) claim exclusive use of the word and pragmatic modern implementation of marriage for themselves? Expanding this...

Should my apathetic agnostic marriage be called something else?

Should my friends hardline athiest marriage be called something else?

Should my Aunties homosexual marriage be called something else?

From what I understand, Christians don't have a problem with any monogamous marriage between one man and one woman, no matter what the couple's religious beliefs are, because it's still honoring God's design of sexual relationships. That doesn't mean other sins don't exist (like the rejection of God in these cases), but every person is sinful.

[thegreekdog]

The problem with the Christians' views on gay marriage is that they are imposing their religious views outside their religion through the government (and respective laws).

[Lootifer]

From what I understand, Christians don't have a problem with any monogamous marriage between one man and one woman, no matter what the couple's religious beliefs are, because it's still honoring God's design of sexual relationships. That doesn't mean other sins don't exist (like the rejection of God in these cases), but every person is sinful.

But my point was if you are rejecting homosexual marriage because the church has specific definitions around what is sinful and what is not, and homosexual behaviour is sinful. Therefore should you not also reject the marriage between two athiests who openly deny god as well since marriage is a church based tradition? (you have used that argument before iirc).

The only reason I can see you opposing same sex marriage is because its your tradition and you (the church) should get to decide how it is implemented.

That or you are being homophobic, which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. Not something I agree with of course.

[Night Strike]

The problem with the Christians' views on gay marriage is that they are imposing their religious views outside their religion through the government (and respective laws).

So because marriage has been defined as between one man and one woman across most countries and religions and is the traditional definition across the world, it's Christians who are imposing religious views on the government since that definition is also the definition used by Christians? And even if that was the case, the Constitution does not prohibit the use of religion when deciding what laws to pass. It simply states that Congress can not establish a religion or prohibit someone from exercising their religion. The first amendment does not block legislation that's based on religious morals.

[GreecePwns]

That still doesn't make it okay. That's the point I've been trying to make for a good 15 pages.

[Phatscotty]

Update, Polygamy, practiced around the world for thousands of years, is more radically transformative than gay marriage, which has been around in a handful of places for a few years.....

gotchya. god bless schools

[GreecePwns]

Scotty, you are wrong on this count as well. Same-sex marriages were performed in ancient Greece (we have an island called Lesbos, dammit, so don't even question this), China, Rome, heck even Spain as early as 1061 according to this ssource.

[Phatscotty]

Scotty, you are wrong on this count as well. Same-sex marriages were performed in ancient Greece (we have an island called Lesbos, dammit, so don't even question this), China, Rome, heck even Spain as early as 1061 according to this ssource.

does that even come close to representing .000000000001% of all marriages from ancient Greece to today?

Society should not have to transform based on the exceptions, especially the exceptions of 4000 or 2000 years ago in a handful of places....

[GreecePwns]

Instead we should have government control society and dictate what is best for it, right? What a libertarian you are.

[Phatscotty]

Instead we should have government control society and dictate what is best for it, right? What a libertarian you are.

why are you trolling me. how does your statement square at all with what you know to be true...that the people decide - liberty. I want the people tell the government what to do. You want the government to tell people how to live. Your shit is so twisted right now

If you can't handle this, then don't talk to me about it.

[Lootifer]

why are you trolling me. how does your statement square at all with what you know to be true...that the people decide - liberty. I want the people tell the government what to do. You want the government to tell people how to live. Your shit is so twisted right now

If you can't handle this, then don't talk to me about it.

Wowzer PS, this is weird even for you...

Time to take ur pills maybe?

Posting while drunk?

Something happened IRL?

[Phatscotty]

why are you trolling me. how does your statement square at all with what you know to be true...that the people decide - liberty. I want the people tell the government what to do. You want the government to tell people how to live. Your shit is so twisted right now

If you can't handle this, then don't talk to me about it.

Wowzer PS, this is weird even for you...

Time to take ur pills maybe?

Posting while drunk?

Something happened IRL?

Mind your own business.

foed for vicious trolling

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

Thomas Jefferson

[Lootifer]

Update, Polygamy, practiced around the world for thousands of years, is more radically transformative than gay marriage, which has been around in a handful of places for a few years.....

gotchya. god bless schools

When you say radically transformative do you mean to imply "more harmful to society/america/etc"?

[natty dread]

Phatscotty, why do you hate gay people so much?

[Phatscotty]

Phatscotty, why do you hate gay people so much?

hate baiter

[natty dread]

Phatscotty, why do you hate gay people so much?

f*ck you hate baiter

It's ok Scottie, admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery.

[Woodruff]

Update, Polygamy, practiced around the world for thousands of years, is more radically transformative than gay marriage, which has been around in a handful of places for a few years.....

gotchya. god bless schools

God Bless schools? First of all, that seems highly non-sequitor. Secondly, I don't believe you learned history as well as you could have in whatever schools you attended.

Instead we should have government control society and dictate what is best for it, right? What a libertarian you are.

why are you trolling me. how does your statement square at all with what you know to be true...that the people decide - liberty. I want the people tell the government what to do. You want the government to tell people how to live. Your shit is so twisted right now

If you can't handle this, then don't talk to me about it.

Your stance doesn't mix with your massive support of drug testing for welfare recipients. That is the government telling people how to live. You are a hypocrite.

Update, Polygamy, practiced around the world for thousands of years, is more radically transformative than gay marriage, which has been around in a handful of places for a few years.....

gotchya. god bless schools

When you say radically transformative do you mean to imply "more harmful to society/america/etc"?

He means that he doesn't like it. Things are only a problem if he doesn't like them...otherwise it's "ALL ABOUT THE FREEDOM!!!!".