Why States Must Compete: New Jersey vs California

[AndyDufresne]

As things stand now, the official stance on illegal immigration in the U.S. is really untenable and unreasonable, in my opinion, and has been for quite some time.

This is absolutely true. I am interested in why you think shortening the time to become a citizen would help, since illegal aliens are now not eligible for citizenship. (but maybe that belongs in another thread)

Per parents that I've spoken with who happen to be in this country as illegal immigrants, they WANTED to follow the legal process for becoming a citizen, but when they saw the ridiculous timeframe involved, their desperation to get out of (specifically Columbia and Mexico) drove them to move here illegally instead. If the timeframe were a more reasonable one, then those sorts of people would be much more willing to "hang on" in their current location long enough to get it done legally. There really is no good reason why the process should take as long as it does.

It sounds like under-staffing or bureaucracy: http://www.usimmigrationlawyers.com/res ... -is-my-us-

show

--Andy

[Woodruff]

As things stand now, the official stance on illegal immigration in the U.S. is really untenable and unreasonable, in my opinion, and has been for quite some time.

This is absolutely true. I am interested in why you think shortening the time to become a citizen would help, since illegal aliens are now not eligible for citizenship. (but maybe that belongs in another thread)

Per parents that I've spoken with who happen to be in this country as illegal immigrants, they WANTED to follow the legal process for becoming a citizen, but when they saw the ridiculous timeframe involved, their desperation to get out of (specifically Columbia and Mexico) drove them to move here illegally instead. If the timeframe were a more reasonable one, then those sorts of people would be much more willing to "hang on" in their current location long enough to get it done legally. There really is no good reason why the process should take as long as it does.

It sounds like under-staffing or bureaucracy:

I'm sure that's exactly it. Unfortunately, the "expected 5 month wait" typically goes MUCH longer than that.

[Woodruff]

Is it as good of a read as this is:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2 ... ff-recall/

Because that doesn't look like the sort of guy that's interested in saving taxpayer money.

Scott Walker is a real winner:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/167881/did-scott-walker-lie-under-oath-congress-he-says-no-video-says-yes

Did you read the first article? How do you not find the title to be misleading to the point of slanderous?

Huh...somehow, I completely missed your response here...sorry about that. At any rate, I do find the title of the article to be misleading, yes. However, I find the article itself to be quite accurate. Did you have any thoughts on the article itself?

[thegreekdog]

Is it as good of a read as this is:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2 ... ff-recall/

Because that doesn't look like the sort of guy that's interested in saving taxpayer money.

Scott Walker is a real winner:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/167881/did-scott-walker-lie-under-oath-congress-he-says-no-video-says-yes

Did you read the first article? How do you not find the title to be misleading to the point of slanderous?

Huh...somehow, I completely missed your response here...sorry about that. At any rate, I do find the title of the article to be misleading, yes. However, I find the article itself to be quite accurate. Did you have any thoughts on the article itself?

I did. These types of tax programs are used by most states. The idea is that you bring a company to a state by providing tax benefits that are better than other states (the states bordering Michigan did this when Michigan enacted its Michigan Business Tax a few years ago which was replaced rather quickly with a normal corporate income tax). It's also fairly common for governors to tout their job-bringing qualifications. In sum, I found nothing wrong with what he did.

[Woodruff]

Is it as good of a read as this is:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2 ... ff-recall/

Because that doesn't look like the sort of guy that's interested in saving taxpayer money.

Scott Walker is a real winner:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/167881/did-scott-walker-lie-under-oath-congress-he-says-no-video-says-yes

Did you read the first article? How do you not find the title to be misleading to the point of slanderous?

Huh...somehow, I completely missed your response here...sorry about that. At any rate, I do find the title of the article to be misleading, yes. However, I find the article itself to be quite accurate. Did you have any thoughts on the article itself?

I did. These types of tax programs are used by most states. The idea is that you bring a company to a state by providing tax benefits that are better than other states (the states bordering Michigan did this when Michigan enacted its Michigan Business Tax a few years ago which was replaced rather quickly with a normal corporate income tax). It's also fairly common for governors to tout their job-bringing qualifications. In sum, I found nothing wrong with what he did.

I find the timing rather than the specifics of what he did to be the problem, after so long essentially complaining that the state was going bankrupt. Why hadn't this been done previously? Because then it would have been shown that the state wasn't in as bad of financial shape as he was attempting to claim.

[thegreekdog]

I find the timing rather than the specifics of what he did to be the problem, after so long essentially complaining that the state was going bankrupt. Why hadn't this been done previously? Because then it would have been shown that the state wasn't in as bad of financial shape as he was attempting to claim.

I don't disagree. I find it poor because he was stupid politically. He should have taken a page from Governor Christie's book and just compared how much public employees contribute to health insurance (for example) to what private employees contribute. That really resonated in New Jersey that public employees contributed something like 1% to their health insurance and the governor wanted them to contribute 3%. It effectively hamstrung the teachers unions' arguments because they started to look like hogs if they argued against it. Brilliant political move by Christie. Bad political move by Walker.

I would also note that these kind of credits are generally revenue-neutral for states. Although the company may not pay taxes, its highly paid employees will certainly pay taxes (personal income taxes) and if transactions increase, sales tax revenue will increase (which is the biggest revenue-generator for states).

[Woodruff]

He should have taken a page from Governor Christie's book and just compared how much public employees contribute to health insurance (for example) to what private employees contribute. That really resonated in New Jersey that public employees contributed something like 1% to their health insurance and the governor wanted them to contribute 3%.

I agree completely that's exactly the way to tackle it. Primarily because it's based on facts and letting the people decide based on the actual facts.

[BigBallinStalin]

As things stand now, the official stance on illegal immigration in the U.S. is really untenable and unreasonable, in my opinion, and has been for quite some time.

This is absolutely true. I am interested in why you think shortening the time to become a citizen would help, since illegal aliens are now not eligible for citizenship. (but maybe that belongs in another thread)

Per parents that I've spoken with who happen to be in this country as illegal immigrants, they WANTED to follow the legal process for becoming a citizen, but when they saw the ridiculous timeframe involved, their desperation to get out of (specifically Columbia and Mexico) drove them to move here illegally instead. If the timeframe were a more reasonable one, then those sorts of people would be much more willing to "hang on" in their current location long enough to get it done legally. There really is no good reason why the process should take as long as it does.

It sounds like under-staffing or bureaucracy:

I'm sure that's exactly it. Unfortunately, the "expected 5 month wait" typically goes MUCH longer than that.

I think that "problem" is intentional.

[Woodruff]

This is absolutely true. I am interested in why you think shortening the time to become a citizen would help, since illegal aliens are now not eligible for citizenship. (but maybe that belongs in another thread)

Per parents that I've spoken with who happen to be in this country as illegal immigrants, they WANTED to follow the legal process for becoming a citizen, but when they saw the ridiculous timeframe involved, their desperation to get out of (specifically Columbia and Mexico) drove them to move here illegally instead. If the timeframe were a more reasonable one, then those sorts of people would be much more willing to "hang on" in their current location long enough to get it done legally. There really is no good reason why the process should take as long as it does.

It sounds like under-staffing or bureaucracy:

I'm sure that's exactly it. Unfortunately, the "expected 5 month wait" typically goes MUCH longer than that.

I think that "problem" is intentional.

What would be the gain for the Customs folks to slow-roll applications for citizenship intentionally?

[huamulan]

Do you have to become a citizen of the US to move there? Can you not just move there but remain a citizen of your previous country? I imagine that it would still take time to arrange this (the US loves to make itself difficult to travel to) but maybe that would be quicker than undergoing the citizenship process.

It'd be so much nicer if the whole world could just do what the EU does: no Visa required for travel, no fussing about worker migration and even fairly little worrying about border control. If I wanted to drive from Germany to France for lunch one day I could do it as easily as if I had chosen to stay in Germany. Or if I wanted to leave my job in Stockholm and move to Rome: just up and move, simple as that. It's kind of sad watching governments (even EU ones) cling so desperately to the notion of citizenship and nationality. It's like they don't realize it's the 21st century.

[BigBallinStalin]

@Woodruff

Because they want to keep immigration levels how they are. Why make operations more efficient if they're satisfied with the current trickle of immigrants?

Also, perhaps the longer delays justify more spending.

[BigBallinStalin]

Do you have to become a citizen of the US to move there? Can you not just move there but remain a citizen of your previous country? I imagine that it would still take time to arrange this (the US loves to make itself difficult to travel to) but maybe that would be quicker than undergoing the citizenship process.

1) Get into a school in the US, get a green card/pass to stay in.

2) Work visa

3) normal travel visa, which is the shortest legal stay.

It'd be so much nicer if the whole world could just do what the EU does: no Visa required for travel, no fussing about worker migration and even fairly little worrying about border control. If I wanted to drive from Germany to France for lunch one day I could do it as easily as if I had chosen to stay in Germany. Or if I wanted to leave my job in Stockholm and move to Rome: just up and move, simple as that. It's kind of sad watching governments (even EU ones) cling so desperately to the notion of citizenship and nationality. It's like they don't realize it's the 21st century.

Agreed, but the EU has its restrictions against non-EU members, just as the US has its restrictions against non-US members.

[huamulan]

I mean legal means of moving to the US permanently. As I understand, green cards and visas will all expire. Is there any permanent method?

And yeah, if the entire world became a macro version of the EU's current system. Maybe with the next generation of politicians.

[BigBallinStalin]

I mean legal means of moving to the US permanently. As I understand, green cards and visas will all expire. Is there any permanent method?

Make friends with people who work for immigration services, or wait 7-15+ years to get citizenship (or maybe never).

It mainly depends on your profession, your connections (via work usually, or bureaucrat friends), your country of origin/birth, and how much money you can bring.


I've heard that 4+ years in the military is a faster, legal way of getting citizenship.

[huamulan]

Has the Statue of Liberty ever ventured an opinion on this situation?

[BigBallinStalin]

The bitch hasn't said a damn thing.

I wish I could pry into her brain, but I think that's unethical and definitely illegal.

Saxitoxin knows what I'm talking about.

[PLAYER57832]

I mean legal means of moving to the US permanently. As I understand, green cards and visas will all expire. Is there any permanent method?

Greencards can be renewed, byt theoretically, they are seen as a "first step" to citizenship. The limit is supposed to encourage people to complete the steps to citizenship. However, things have gotten drawn out and somewhat twisted. A work visa or student visa is more jsut for those particular purposes. They are supposed to be harder to renew.

The real problem is that none of those legal means match the demand, either from those wanting to come here or employers wanting to hire folks. Instead we have huge numbers of folks who have crossed the border illegally --particularly those from South America, though illegal entrants come from everywhere. They constitute a serious underclass, taking lower wages, getting fewer benefits and making far fewer demands in general than citizens. Employers like them -- despite all the protests, for those very reasons.

And, to a large extent, while there are real problems associated with illegal immigration, a lot of the accusations are a matter of "blame the target" -- don't focus on US. It tends to work. Things get tight and its nice to find a scape goat to take the blame.

[PLAYER57832]

Has the Statue of Liberty ever ventured an opinion on this situation?

"Give me your tired, your poor...." Etc. You can google the whole speech if you wish.