Has anyone accomplished

[Haggis_McMutton]

You still have to pay taxes and your debt, you are just selfish in paying for only your own education.

Technically, for college/university/graduate education, I pay the following: taxes (which support others' educations), tuition in cash, tuition in loans (plus interest), and, if I'm so inclined, charitable contributions to my alma mater. Presumably you pay similar costs (although your costs may be lower than the average US ex-student's costs due to the affordability of a college education in Scotland versus the US).

Tuition fees are like 9k per year in Scotland now, so I would get like 36k of debt if I was English and attending my uni. Perhaps I should rephrase, in our system we do more to help people into tertiary education than some other countries and as such we provide a much more equal playing field. I think it is important that education is fairly given to those who seek it, to stop the influence of the parents wealth upon the next generation of children.

See Saxi's table below, but the United States does a whole lot to make sure people that cannot afford tertiary education can get tertiary education (even if that tertiary education is an art history degree that will net them $8 an hour at Starbucks).

Based on my very limited experience, some kids in the US end up going to university for all the wrong reasons(i.e. parent's expectation or desire to get drunk often), then end up with a shitload of debt and by their early twenties are basically indentured to the state.
I dunno, but this seems kinda fucked to me.

P.S.
university rankings need to be taken with a big grain of salt. Eg:
http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011

Kinda different from saxi's.

[saxitoxin]

Given your track record with claims in this thread (i.e. Scots are well-educated, Scotland has world-class universities) I think we have a right, at this point, to request you prove "Scotland" even exists.

2. Scotland would be the 22nd biggest state if it was in the US.

That means it would have to be renamed according to US state-naming syntax, IOW renamed to orient it to its better-known neighbor (see: West Virginia, etc.).

Welcome, North England! ("West Denmark" is also acceptable.)

Hi saxi. Please provide quotes of my so called claims to Scots having world class universities and being well-educated or I may have to go make a complaint to the saxi dispute resolution board. Also size doesn't matter, it's how you use it

We're like a dozen posts removed from the locus delicti - you don't have the luxury of demanding quotes at this point when your chest-thumping is this fresh in everyone's mind. (to be fair, barackattack made the comment about West Denmark having world-class universities, however, I'm certifying this as a class action case and treating you as equal for purposes of this thread)

[saxitoxin]

P.S.
university rankings need to be taken with a big grain of salt. Eg:
http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011

Kinda different from saxi's.

q?

the top 25 in that list are all identical to mine except for 2 ... and neither of them are the St. Andrew's Institute of Landscaping and Golf Course Maintenance

[Army of GOD]

I still don't know what Scotland being big enough to be the 22nd largest state has to do with anything.

If China was a state, it would be the most populous state.

[saxitoxin]

If China was a state, it would be the most populous state.

If you were a state you'd be Rhode Island.

[Army of GOD]

hm, the site haggis posted has NYU at 44, which is the same as the one saxitoxin posted.

Stony Brook, however, dropped to 244.

[pmchugh]

I still don't know what Scotland being big enough to be the 22nd largest state has to do with anything.

If China was a state, it would be the most populous state.

If there were 300 million scots then we would probably have more people doing research and hence higher ranked universities.

Given your track record with claims in this thread (i.e. Scots are well-educated, Scotland has world-class universities) I think we have a right, at this point, to request you prove "Scotland" even exists.

2. Scotland would be the 22nd biggest state if it was in the US.

That means it would have to be renamed according to US state-naming syntax, IOW renamed to orient it to its better-known neighbor (see: West Virginia, etc.).

Welcome, North England! ("West Denmark" is also acceptable.)

Hi saxi. Please provide quotes of my so called claims to Scots having world class universities and being well-educated or I may have to go make a complaint to the saxi dispute resolution board. Also size doesn't matter, it's how you use it

We're like a dozen posts removed from the locus delicti - you don't have the luxury of demanding quotes at this point when your chest-thumping is this fresh in everyone's mind. (to be fair, barackattack made the comment about West Denmark having world-class universities, however, I'm certifying this as a class action case and treating you as equal for purposes of this thread)

I never claimed anything like that. I claimed that having state funded tuition fees provides opportunities to students in Scotland in a manner that is more fair than most other systems. Our universities are high quality, this system is unlikely to ever produce a university sitting at #1 on a world bests list but that is not something required by a nation like Scotland. You are comparing apples to toads.

[Army of GOD]

So how come the Swiss have one within the top 20?

[saxitoxin]

I never claimed anything like that. I claimed that having state funded tuition fees provides opportunities to students in Scotland in a manner that is more fair than most other systems.

you said "in our system we do more to help people into tertiary education than some other countries and as such we provide a much more equal playing field"

1. The reality - as shown - is that West Denmark operates a scrap heap of barely-accredited universities that get consigned to the working class while viscounts, dukes, marquesses and earls travel to England, Switzerland or the United States for a world-class education. This is the opposite of a "much more equal playing field."

2. Buying the line sold by Salmond and Sons that they're doing "more" to help people into tertiary education doesn't jive with the statistics showing education levels in West Denmark are relatively low by standards of the developed world. If they're doing more, it's not working.

Our universities are high quality, this system is unlikely to ever produce a university sitting at #1 on a world bests list but that is not something required by a nation like Scotland. You are comparing apples to toads.

In the Times of London list I provided, it ranked UBC - a public university in a province that (IIRC) is smaller than Scotland - among the "Top 30."

[huamulan]

ETH Zurich is better than the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (or whatever it was called). That list is therefore INCORRECT and can be disregarded.

viscounts, dukes, marquesses and earls travel to England, Switzerland or the United States for a world-class education

Prince William went to St. Andrew's.

inb4 you insult the British monarchy

[saxitoxin]

ETH Zurich is better than the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (or whatever it was called).

ETH stands for "Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule" (Federal Institute of Technology).

[2dimes]

ETH Zurich is better than the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (or whatever it was called).

ETH stands for "Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule" (Federal Institute of Technology) - it's the same place.

...only better!

[pmchugh]

So how come the Swiss have one within the top 20?

I dunno, maybe they have their own country for a start? They have over double our GDP with far less violence and much more fence sitting. Also that university is publicly founded which is obliged under Swiss law to allow any swiss student who even sat the school leavers exam in and their tuition fees are in the region of £300-400 a semester. Sounds like they are doing just fine in terms of equality and fairness.

I never claimed anything like that. I claimed that having state funded tuition fees provides opportunities to students in Scotland in a manner that is more fair than most other systems.

you said "in our system we do more to help people into tertiary education than some other countries and as such we provide a much more equal playing field"

1. The reality - as shown - is that West Denmark operates a scrap heap of barely-accredited universities that get consigned to the working class while viscounts, dukes, marquesses and earls travel to England, Switzerland or the United States for a world-class education. This is the opposite of a "much more equal playing field."

2. Buying the line sold by Salmond and Sons that they're doing "more" to help people into tertiary education doesn't jive with the statistics showing education levels in West Denmark are relatively low by standards of the developed world. If they're doing more, it's not working.

Our universities are high quality, this system is unlikely to ever produce a university sitting at #1 on a world bests list but that is not something required by a nation like Scotland. You are comparing apples to toads.

In the Times of London list I provided, it ranked UBC - a public university in a province that (IIRC) is smaller than Scotland - among the "Top 30."

Again missing the point. You can nitpick a few universities that score well in a very subjective test (Bristol are ranked #11 in UK universities and #30 overall, where as St Andrews are #6 in the UK http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.c ... s/rankings) but it doesn't mean diddly squat. Our universities are of expected quality and are available freely to all citizens, end of story.

[huamulan]

H'okay. ETH Zurich comment withdrawn.

[Army of GOD]

So first you complain that Scotland has a very small population, and now you complain that Switzerland's GDP is higher.

I think you're just avoiding having to admit that Scotland sucks.

[saxitoxin]

Again missing the point. You can nitpick a few universities that score well in a very subjective test (Bristol are ranked #11 in UK universities and #30 overall, where as St Andrews are #6 in the UK http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.c ... s/rankings) but it doesn't mean diddly squat. Our universities are of expected quality and are available freely to all citizens, end of story.

Again, this is the system:

West Denmark
You can go to shitty university 1 or shitty university 2 - no charge! Wanna go to a quality university capable of educating you in more than veterinary medicine or agriculture? Those aren't for you petty workers. You can figure out how to go to one on your own - we won't be providing assistance. Hopefully your father has the letters GCMG, KCVO or CMG after his name and is introduced at dinner parties as "His Most Exalted Worshipfulness."

US
You can go to any university you want - shitty, mediocre or elite. Your tuition is effectively suspended pending your entry into the workforce. Then you'll need to pay us back over 20 years at close-to-no interest.

I criticize the U.S. a lot but the latter system - as educational levels between the U.S. and West Denmark demonstrate - has produced greater access to education in a real-world assessment, versus the theory of good intentions. The West Danish system may or may not be well meaning but it obviously isn't yielding results. If I were a student I'd be more concerned about actual results than how touchy-feely and comforting a theory looked on paper.

[huamulan]

Give it about 30 years and all those Chinese students who've been bled dry to fund the lazy Western universities for the last few decades will be staying at home for their education instead (Hong Kong, Peking etc.).

Then this argument will seem about as relevant as a penis-measuring contest between Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece.

[john9blue]

US
You can go to any university you want - shitty, mediocre or elite. Your tuition is effectively suspended pending your entry into the workforce. Then you'll need to pay us back over 20 years at close-to-no interest. [/list]

um... really?

this is an almost foolishly optimistic view of student loans, especially considering the skyrocketing cost of education (particularly at the top tier universities you mentioned) and the largely shitty job prospects in recent years for college grads

[nietzsche]

US
You can go to any university you want - shitty, mediocre or elite. Your tuition is effectively suspended pending your entry into the workforce. Then you'll need to pay us back over 20 years at close-to-no interest. [/list]

um... really?

this is an almost foolishly optimistic view of student loans, especially considering the skyrocketing cost of education (particularly at the top tier universities you mentioned) and the largely shitty job prospects in recent years for college grads

considering, saxi, how they actually worry about the debt, maybe it looks perfect to us old timers but is not actually good for them.

see AoG, he's close to go crazy becaue he wasn't good enough to get scholarship... not good. maybe these weaklings should have never been told that they could go to college, they should have been sent to the factories since 16.

[BigBallinStalin]

saxitoxin receives +100 saxibucks.
The rest of you get nothing.

[saxitoxin]

US
You can go to any university you want - shitty, mediocre or elite. Your tuition is effectively suspended pending your entry into the workforce. Then you'll need to pay us back over 20 years at close-to-no interest. [/list]

um... really?

this is an almost foolishly optimistic view of student loans, especially considering the skyrocketing cost of education (particularly at the top tier universities you mentioned) and the largely shitty job prospects in recent years for college grads

That's an excellent point, John.

This probably has to do with over-education of the workforce. Frankly, in the long run - even though they may not intend this as part of the plan - Scotland is probably better off putting together a population able to work in factories and mines than in the U.S. or Canada where everyone walks around with a diploma. There's no reason more than one-out-of-ten people in a nation need a university degree. A nation needs miners, machinists and soldiers, not publicists, brand managers and IT specialists.

see AoG, he's close to go crazy becaue he wasn't good enough to get scholarship... not good. maybe these weaklings should have never been told that they could go to college, they should have been sent to the factories since 16.

+50 SaxBucks for nietzsche

The 'stay in school' and 'go to college' campaigns are wreaking havoc on economies. They work in the old order, but not the return to a traditional order toward which the world is turning. The U.S. is experiencing that now and so are others ... in Finland I see, where they have grown fat off Nokia, the giant is crumbling. They will need strong men to log timber in Lapland but will find only media buyers and junior software developers.

[Army of GOD]

gods and clods

[thegreekdog]

You still have to pay taxes and your debt, you are just selfish in paying for only your own education.

Technically, for college/university/graduate education, I pay the following: taxes (which support others' educations), tuition in cash, tuition in loans (plus interest), and, if I'm so inclined, charitable contributions to my alma mater. Presumably you pay similar costs (although your costs may be lower than the average US ex-student's costs due to the affordability of a college education in Scotland versus the US).

Tuition fees are like 9k per year in Scotland now, so I would get like 36k of debt if I was English and attending my uni. Perhaps I should rephrase, in our system we do more to help people into tertiary education than some other countries and as such we provide a much more equal playing field. I think it is important that education is fairly given to those who seek it, to stop the influence of the parents wealth upon the next generation of children.

See Saxi's table below, but the United States does a whole lot to make sure people that cannot afford tertiary education can get tertiary education (even if that tertiary education is an art history degree that will net them $8 an hour at Starbucks).

Based on my very limited experience, some kids in the US end up going to university for all the wrong reasons(i.e. parent's expectation or desire to get drunk often), then end up with a shitload of debt and by their early twenties are basically indentured to the state.
I dunno, but this seems kinda fucked to me.

It is fucked up. The demand stems from the idea (perpetuated by probably a combination of parents, government, and general cultural) that kids have to go to college to succeed in life. And not only do they have to go to college, they have to go to a good college or university. Therefore, colleges and universities can charge small fortunes to attend for one semester. And thus does the student become indentured (not necessarily to the state). I graduated in 2001. Since then, tuition for my college doubled. That seems rather ridiculous.

[pmchugh]

St Andrews, Glasgow and Edinburgh are certainly not "shitty" universities. My point, again, is that our universities are of the quality expected of our nation. If you have a country that is pretty much a superpower, or one which out performs us in almost all other statistics then you are going to expect them to score higher in terms of the supposed "quality" of their universities.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-2012/europe.html

This source puts Edinburgh at 7th best uni in Europe, 36th worldwide. If your whole point is that our universities under perform then you suck balls, as they just outranked uni's from France and Germany.

http://www.webometrics.info/top500_europe.asp

This one has them slightly lower at 11th in Europe but certainly no embarrassment. Of course these rankings are subjective, but they certainly show that our universities compete at a fairly high level.

Our universities are quality and while our system may not scale well to the US of Arrogant it certainly does just fine for Scotland.

[saxitoxin]

... our universities are of the quality expected of our nation. If you have a country that is pretty much a superpower, or one which out performs us in almost all other statistics then you are going to expect them to score higher in terms of the supposed "quality" of their universities.

Your argument, "no one expects a Scotsman to amount to much so we can make due with less" makes me sad. It's the line recited by a people whose will has been smashed by an Anglo conqueror and believe what they've been told: they're, racially, only suited for cannon fodder and coal mining.

But, it doesn't work when you're trying to trumpet the achievements of your system of education. Other sub-national entities (what Scotland is) of equal size to Scotland have world-class universities: British Columbia, Connecticut, Massachusetts.

If you're content to just get what's given to you, you'll end up like Scotland. If you're content to make sure your poor and working class get siloed into a few pauper's universities while your viscounts and marquesses and earls go to the best universities on earth, you'll end up like Scotland. Your argument was that this system gives everyone an equal playing field. This is the opposite of an equal playing field.