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Vouchers for Education

Postby Woodruff on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:27 am

Last edited by Woodruff on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby Dibbun on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:36 am

I don't support public money going to any private school, religious or secular. But yeah this woman needs to re-evaluate her life philosophy. But I bet she won't! lolLouisiana, stupid ass South staying backwards, we should have let them stay seceded.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby chang50 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:43 am



Is it commonplace in the USA for bigoted morons like Hodges to be elected to political office?I would like to think she was the exception not the rule.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby Woodruff on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:51 am

chang50 wrote:


Is it commonplace in the USA for bigoted morons like Hodges to be elected to political office?I would like to think she was the exception not the rule.


It's frighteningly not rare, though most aren't as honest about it. I'm curious as to how our own bigoted morons will view the article, to be honest. I expect the din of silence.
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Postby 2dimes on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:11 am

They should stop funding any school she went to.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:20 am

To begin with, I agree with you that this woman is ignorant, her statements and actions are stupid and she should not be in public office. Pick your subject, the Constitution, religion, education, history, school choice, you name it and she is showing herself clueless with regard to it.

Regarding vouchers, consider this. Suppose that Bill gates had so many admirers in the government that he managed to get the laws gerrymandered so that if anyone chose to buy an Apple computer, they would not only have to pay the Apple dealer the full price of the computer, but also have to pay Microsoft the full price of its closest competing product. Wouldn't be fair, would it? Not to Apple, but more importantly, not to the many people who prefer Macs to PCs.

I have to groan and shake my head when somebody talks about "giving public money to private schools." Who is the "public"? The "public" is the people who pay taxes and send their kids to school. Why shouldn't at least some of THEIR money that THEY pay for their children's education go where their children are educated? Vouchers are never equal to the per-capita cost of public education, so the parents who send their kids to a private school will still be subsidizing the public school system, it just makes it a bit more equitable.

The writer of the article that you linked to insinuates that private schools give an inferior education. If that is so, why do parents who can afford it so often send their kids to private schools, even now when they have to double-pay?

A voucher system of school choice is good public and educational policy for several reasons.

First and I think most importantly, it reduces the economic inequity, where rich people can afford to send their kids to a private school, while the poor have no choice. Obviously, vouchers will not eliminate all of the results of prejudice and economic disadvantage, but it cannot help but mitigate against them.

Second, everybody complains that the public schools are overcrowded. Enabling more students to go to other schools will reduce the crowding.

I think I'll stop there for now. These are the most obvious arguments that come to mind, and I'm too tired to formulate more at the moment. Besides, I'll probably get enough stimulating debate (along with all the invective and name-calling) on this much.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby chang50 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:41 am

daddy1gringo wrote:To begin with, I agree with you that this woman is ignorant, her statements and actions are stupid and she should not be in public office. Pick your subject, the Constitution, religion, education, history, school choice, you name it and she is showing herself clueless with regard to it.

Regarding vouchers, consider this. Suppose that Bill gates had so many admirers in the government that he managed to get the laws gerrymandered so that if anyone chose to buy an Apple computer, they would not only have to pay the Apple dealer the full price of the computer, but also have to pay Microsoft the full price of its closest competing product. Wouldn't be fair, would it? Not to Apple, but more importantly, not to the many people who prefer Macs to PCs.

I have to groan and shake my head when somebody talks about "giving public money to private schools." Who is the "public"? The "public" is the people who pay taxes and send their kids to school. Why shouldn't at least some of THEIR money that THEY pay for their children's education go where their children are educated? Vouchers are never equal to the per-capita cost of public education, so the parents who send their kids to a private school will still be subsidizing the public school system, it just makes it a bit more equitable.

The writer of the article that you linked to insinuates that private schools give an inferior education. If that is so, why do parents who can afford it so often send their kids to private schools, even now when they have to double-pay?

A voucher system of school choice is good public and educational policy for several reasons.

First and I think most importantly, it reduces the economic inequity, where rich people can afford to send their kids to a private school, while the poor have no choice. Obviously, vouchers will not eliminate all of the results of prejudice and economic disadvantage, but it cannot help but mitigate against them.

Second, everybody complains that the public schools are overcrowded. Enabling more students to go to other schools will reduce the crowding.

I think I'll stop there for now. These are the most obvious arguments that come to mind, and I'm too tired to formulate more at the moment. Besides, I'll probably get enough stimulating debate (along with all the invective and name-calling) on this much.


You'll get no name-calling from me.If I can address one of your points,just because parents think their kids will get a superior education in a private school does not mean they are necessarily correct in that assessment,sadly there are some parents who are as clueless as the hapless Ms Hodges.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby Woodruff on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:39 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:The writer of the article that you linked to insinuates that private schools give an inferior education.


Yes, I picked up on that as well, and I certainly don't agree with it. I've seen VERY GOOD private schools, as well as a couple of...well, not very good athletic-machine private schools.

daddy1gringo wrote:If that is so, why do parents who can afford it so often send their kids to private schools, even now when they have to double-pay?


Typically, so that religion will be part of the curriculum. For some folks, that is more important than the education received (my own sister is of this bent, unfortunately).

daddy1gringo wrote:A voucher system of school choice is good public and educational policy for several reasons.


I'm not really on the voucher program bandwagon at this point. I DO see some plusses to it, but there are a lot of negatives, as well (not the least of which is that I believe most of the support for it comes from religious folks who want help in supporting their schools). I don't believe that is your personal motive, recognizing that you are a deeply religious individual, but it seems to be a theme.

daddy1gringo wrote:Besides, I'll probably get enough stimulating debate (along with all the invective and name-calling) on this much.


Hopefully not. You're one of the most clearheaded posters here in my opinion, religious or not.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby kentington on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:44 pm

chang50 wrote: You'll get no name-calling from me.If I can address one of your points,just because parents think their kids will get a superior education in a private school does not mean they are necessarily correct in that assessment,sadly there are some parents who are as clueless as the hapless Ms Hodges.


Agreed chang. But this goes both ways. I am sending my kids to public school. There is a school near me that is exceptional (public). If I was in the next city over I would definitely send my kids to private school. I have looked at their test standings and parental complaints about teachers, ignoring the "My son Johnny has too much homework."
I have also visited the private school my cousins went to and the kids there were stupid and behaved poorly. Even the teachers seemed dense. I think the biggest thing is that parents need to be involved in their child's education.
I agree with daddy1gringo. I think the choice should be up to the parents.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby kentington on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:46 pm

Woodruff -
I think there is a lot of religious backing for this voucher system and I think that you are seeing their motives behind it.
I don't disagree with you there.

I think the major benefit is being able to choose if you are in an area where the public schools just don't cut it. (Private schools don't always cut it either).
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby Woodruff on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:55 pm

kentington wrote:I think the biggest thing is that parents need to be involved in their child's education.


This is certainly true. Teachers and the school can definitely make A difference (good and bad). Parental involvement, however, typically makes THE difference (good and bad).

My biggest argument against the "picking the school" is the problem of transportation. My current school district ONLY busses kids to elementary schools, and parents do not have the choice of which school their kids attend. However, once they hit middle school, parents can elect to have their kids attend any school in the district (this does not include parochial schools), BUT the schools stop bussing then as well. So it is the parent's responsibility to get the kids to the school they want them to attend. I'm ok with this system (in fact, I like it). No vouchers are necessary for this at all, and that's a primary reason why I don't think they're necessarily necessary.

But in school districts where bussing happens (which is most, I'm pretty sure), the voucher system would create real problems in that regard.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby john9blue on Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:31 pm

that lady got trolled hard
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby chang50 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:31 pm

john9blue wrote:that lady got trolled hard


Exposed as a moronic bigot to be accurate.Speaks volumes for the thousands who voted for her.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:03 am

Dibbun wrote:I don't support public money going to any private school, religious or secular. But yeah this woman needs to re-evaluate her life philosophy. But I bet she won't! lolLouisiana, stupid ass South staying backwards, we should have let them stay seceded.


Probably should have. Louisiana State could have collected all the tax revenues from the oil refineries and wells.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:05 am

This isn't surprising, seeing that she's from East Baton Rouge. Whole buncha idiots out there.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby chang50 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:06 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Dibbun wrote:I don't support public money going to any private school, religious or secular. But yeah this woman needs to re-evaluate her life philosophy. But I bet she won't! lolLouisiana, stupid ass South staying backwards, we should have let them stay seceded.


Probably should have. Louisiana State could have collected all the tax revenues from the oil refineries and wells.


Always assuming they weren't too backward to have developed said refineries and wells, :D
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:43 am

chang50 wrote:Speaks volumes for the thousands who voted for her.


This is an interesting note - apparently in 2011 voters of Valarie Hodges' district - District 34 - were only allowed to choose between Republican #1 or Republican #2. No other parties were listed -

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Valarie_Hodges

- a fairly typical U.S. election ballot in which there is only one party allowed to run because of jungle primary laws.

    This is why it's rather exhausting to hear certain people on this forum who shan't be named indict U.S. third parties for not running candidates in minor elections before challenging for the presidency or who suggest grassroots action can start from the ground up.

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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:02 am

chang50 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Dibbun wrote:I don't support public money going to any private school, religious or secular. But yeah this woman needs to re-evaluate her life philosophy. But I bet she won't! lolLouisiana, stupid ass South staying backwards, we should have let them stay seceded.


Probably should have. Louisiana State could have collected all the tax revenues from the oil refineries and wells.


Always assuming they weren't too backward to have developed said refineries and wells, :D


Hey, now. :|

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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:22 am

daddy1gringo wrote:To begin with, I agree with you that this woman is ignorant, her statements and actions are stupid and she should not be in public office. Pick your subject, the Constitution, religion, education, history, school choice, you name it and she is showing herself clueless with regard to it.
Agreed.

daddy1gringo wrote:Regarding vouchers, consider this. Suppose that Bill gates had so many admirers in the government that he managed to get the laws gerrymandered so that if anyone chose to buy an Apple computer, they would not only have to pay the Apple dealer the full price of the computer, but also have to pay Microsoft the full price of its closest competing product. Wouldn't be fair, would it? Not to Apple, but more importantly, not to the many people who prefer Macs to PCs.

I have to groan and shake my head when somebody talks about "giving public money to private schools." Who is the "public"? The "public" is the people who pay taxes and send their kids to school. Why shouldn't at least some of THEIR money that THEY pay for their children's education go where their children are educated? Vouchers are never equal to the per-capita cost of public education, so the parents who send their kids to a private school will still be subsidizing the public school system, it just makes it a bit more equitable.
Except, I hope you realize that the above scenario is exactly what is happening right now. We are already partially funding private schools, AND if its a so-called cyber charter school, then we are funding it fully, the full cost of what it costs in our district at the brick and mortar school, not the cost of the cyber education.

daddy1gringo wrote:The writer of the article that you linked to insinuates that private schools give an inferior education. If that is so, why do parents who can afford it so often send their kids to private schools, even now when they have to double-pay?

Often religion. Sometimes just plain ignorance. A parent may well consider learning that blacks are intelligent to be "inferior". (and I am absolutely not exaggerating or joking!)
daddy1gringo wrote:A voucher system of school choice is good public and educational policy for several reasons.

First and I think most importantly, it reduces the economic inequity, where rich people can afford to send their kids to a private school, while the poor have no choice. Obviously, vouchers will not eliminate all of the results of prejudice and economic disadvantage, but it cannot help but mitigate against them.
You assume there are viable alternatives. Note, I am currently getting ready to pay for a private tuition for one of my sons. I send the other son to public school because there is no suitable alternative for him. My younger son can handle the strict rules, petty details of the Roman Catholic education. My other son has a hard time complying with the demands of the local public school. Cyber schooling is not an option because I cannot afford to not work and hover over him.
daddy1gringo wrote:Second, everybody complains that the public schools are overcrowded. Enabling more students to go to other schools will reduce the crowding.

A disengenuous argument at best. What will happen is that private schools will syphon off the easiest to educate, first. They will become more selective. In time, more private schools will open.. but only in areas where there is a large enough population to support them. A few areas may see more specialized schools. However, again, it will be ONLY those areas with a significant population, i.e. big cities and such.

Note.. there is already a track record (in Florida, etc) of private schools basically "dumping" the harder to educate, particularly the special education students. (note -- some special education students. Some kids, my son included are labeled "special education" who really ought not to be and they are welcomed because they bring extra funding. Children with real and serious issues are not welcomed in most private schools).
daddy1gringo wrote:I think I'll stop there for now. These are the most obvious arguments that come to mind, and I'm too tired to formulate more at the moment. Besides, I'll probably get enough stimulating debate (along with all the invective and name-calling) on this much.

You bring up some commonly given points. I disagree, as noted above.

However, I also think you are side-stepping the real issue here. What IS a good education and how much should the parent get to decide versus how much should society get to decide for the child.

One example, debated here, involves the Amish. Amish kids only get an 8th grade education. That pretty well limits their choices if they decide to leave the Amish community. Many do. Is that right?

Another involves racists and others with ideas that are not just outside the norm, but considered truly destructive. I can remember a well-known white suprimist (sorry, cannot remember his name, but it really doesn't matter in this context) actually voicing the same question when asked about some kids in California who were being taught a neo-nazis/KKK type curriculum. (one of the more mild beliefs was that societies disintegrate when they have to encorporate different peoples). HIs words were that while he very much did believe his ideas, he had qualms about essentially forcing those ideas onto young kids. I remember him saying "It should be their choice, when they are old enough to undersand."


A second issue is that public schools are not able to move. They have to stay where they are and serve the population that exists, whether they are the "best and brightest" or the "others". A lot of the success of private schools is due to that alone. When you get to pick who your students are, it is natural that you are going to perform better than when you have to take whomever comes. BUT-- when those private schools, who can simply refuse to take whomever they wish, are given public funds on top of that, then the public schools are at an extreme disadvantage. They have less money to educate the ones that the private schools have basically rejected. They will get less money to do more, for kids who are harder to educate.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby chang50 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:19 am

saxitoxin wrote:
chang50 wrote:Speaks volumes for the thousands who voted for her.


This is an interesting note - apparently in 2011 voters of Valarie Hodges' district - District 34 - were only allowed to choose between Republican #1 or Republican #2. No other parties were listed -

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Valarie_Hodges

- a fairly typical U.S. election ballot in which there is only one party allowed to run because of jungle primary laws.

    This is why it's rather exhausting to hear certain people on this forum who shan't be named indict U.S. third parties for not running candidates in minor elections before challenging for the presidency or who suggest grassroots action can start from the ground up.



But at least there was a choice,got me wondering how poor a candidate Mr Elkins was to lose to such a simpleton.Perhaps she has some redeeming qualities as yet unalluded to,but from what I have read so far she appears to be a perfect storm of nastiness,religious extremism,and idiocy.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:26 am

chang50 wrote: But at least there was a choice,got me wondering how poor a candidate Mr Elkins was to lose to such a simpleton.


I don't know anything at all about Mr Elkins, but it's entirely possible that he might have been considered the better candidate in...a different region. He did get his ass stomped, though.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby kiwi3 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:53 am

Those of you who are truly interested in the future of our education, the involvement of politicians in the education system and the effect of charter and so-called virtual schools need to watch this webcast. It was given at the NCTM conference this year. Go to NCTM.org., conference 2012, webcasts, opening speaker. She gives so much information and facts about our education system. It will leave you speechless and outraged at the way things are going and the changes "for the better" that our government has been selling us on. Guess who benefits from charter schools?...many legislatures who have vested interest in them. We are paying for them through our taxes whether your kids go there or not.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby daddy1gringo on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:37 pm

Woodruff wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:The writer of the article that you linked to insinuates that private schools give an inferior education.


Yes, I picked up on that as well, and I certainly don't agree with it. I've seen VERY GOOD private schools, as well as a couple of...well, not very good athletic-machine private schools.

daddy1gringo wrote:If that is so, why do parents who can afford it so often send their kids to private schools, even now when they have to double-pay?


Typically, so that religion will be part of the curriculum. For some folks, that is more important than the education received (my own sister is of this bent, unfortunately).


chang50 wrote:If I can address one of your points,just because parents think their kids will get a superior education in a private school does not mean they are necessarily correct in that assessment,sadly there are some parents who are as clueless as the hapless Ms Hodges.


kentington wrote:Agreed chang. But this goes both ways. I am sending my kids to public school. There is a school near me that is exceptional (public). If I was in the next city over I would definitely send my kids to private school. I have looked at their test standings and parental complaints about teachers, ignoring the "My son Johnny has too much homework."
I have also visited the private school my cousins went to and the kids there were stupid and behaved poorly. Even the teachers seemed dense. I think the biggest thing is that parents need to be involved in their child's education.
I agree with daddy1gringo. I think the choice should be up to the parents.


Pretty much everybody who responded to my post zeroed in on this particular statement, which I kind of regret including because it was sort or a side-track. I was thinking that private-school education is generally considered better, for example, that getting into a private school is thought to increase one’s chance of getting into Yale or Harvard for example, but I guess that is just certain prestigious rich-white-kid schools, while there are a lot of private schools that are not of that caliber. Anyway, it seems that there are better and worse private schools, and there are better and worse public schools. I’ll buy that.

What I wonder is what people who oppose voucher systems say in response to my more central points:

daddy1gringo wrote: Regarding vouchers, consider this. Suppose that Bill gates had so many admirers in the government that he managed to get the laws gerrymandered so that if anyone chose to buy an Apple computer, they would not only have to pay the Apple dealer the full price of the computer, but also have to pay Microsoft the full price of its closest competing product. Wouldn't be fair, would it? Not to Apple, but more importantly, not to the many people who prefer Macs to PCs.

I have to groan and shake my head when somebody talks about "giving public money to private schools." Who is the "public"? The "public" is the people who pay taxes and send their kids to school. Why shouldn't at least some of THEIR money that THEY pay for their children's education go where their children are educated? Vouchers are never equal to the per-capita cost of public education, so the parents who send their kids to a private school will still be subsidizing the public school system, it just makes it a bit more equitable.

First and I think most importantly, it reduces the economic inequity, where rich people can afford to send their kids to a private school, while the poor have no choice. Obviously, vouchers will not eliminate all of the results of prejudice and economic disadvantage, but it cannot help but mitigate against them.

Second, everybody complains that the public schools are overcrowded. Enabling more students to go to other schools will reduce the crowding.
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:55 pm

chang50 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
chang50 wrote:Speaks volumes for the thousands who voted for her.


This is an interesting note - apparently in 2011 voters of Valarie Hodges' district - District 34 - were only allowed to choose between Republican #1 or Republican #2. No other parties were listed -

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Valarie_Hodges

- a fairly typical U.S. election ballot in which there is only one party allowed to run because of jungle primary laws.

    This is why it's rather exhausting to hear certain people on this forum who shan't be named indict U.S. third parties for not running candidates in minor elections before challenging for the presidency or who suggest grassroots action can start from the ground up.



But at least there was a choice,got me wondering how poor a candidate Mr Elkins was to lose to such a simpleton.


I would bet that Barry Elkins was most likely a minor, local party functionary enlisted to simply put his name on the ballot since, as bad as it looks when only one party is listed, it looks even worse when there's only candidate. Probably he didn't run any kind of campaign and wasn't even planning to be elected. He was a cardboard candidate. (I could be wrong as I know nothing about this election or Louisiana generally, but this is the modus operandi of the U.S. electoral system.)
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Re: Vouchers for Education

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:37 pm

kiwi3 wrote:Those of you who are truly interested in the future of our education, the involvement of politicians in the education system and the effect of charter and so-called virtual schools need to watch this webcast. It was given at the NCTM conference this year. Go to NCTM.org., conference 2012, webcasts, opening speaker. She gives so much information and facts about our education system. It will leave you speechless and outraged at the way things are going and the changes "for the better" that our government has been selling us on. Guess who benefits from charter schools?...many legislatures who have vested interest in them. We are paying for them through our taxes whether your kids go there or not.


couldn't fast forward, so I stopped watching.
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