Paterno

[spurgistan]

I disagree. Narrowly defining his position as looking out for the interests of his football team, his job is to quash anything that might hurt the football team. The criminal prosecution against Sandusky would have destroyed the team, and Paterno et al clearly thought they could manage it. Omitting his role as a moral citizen, which I think we can differentiate from his role as the operator of a big-time football program, Paterno did the "right" thing in trying to protect the program. And again, if players want to leave the school, they will be allowed to. People who want to try to restore Penn State's tattered reputation will be given the chance to.

Even if your narrow definition of his position was true (which it isn't), he still completely failed in "quashing anything that might hurt the football team". In fact, what Paterno didn't do was so terrible that he caused MUCH more damage to the team than if he had spoken up and not been the driving force in trying to cover it up.

That's exactly right. As I said earlier, if the right thing had been done and Sandusky had been taken into custody at that time, there would have been almost no damage done to the football program.

I guess I disagree with that last part, which is pretty much a judgment call. What do you think I did wrong about defining him as a football administrator? Are we supposed to believe the fiction that operators of college-football factories should be moral leaders of men?

[Bones2484]

I guess I disagree with that last part, which is pretty much a judgment call. What do you think I did wrong about defining him as a football administrator? Are we supposed to believe the fiction that operators of college-football factories should be moral leaders of men?

I don't disagree with you defining him as a football administrator. I disagree with you defining his sole purpose as "quashing anything that might hurt the football team". Whether you agree or not with the NCAA, they have clearly dictated a policy of disclosure which has been clearly violated. And since the head football coach of Penn St falls within the broader guidelines of the NCAA they are required to do much more than your admittedly narrow definition.

The correct course of action in this case was for Paterno to immediately come clean when he found out what was happening. I cannot say they would not have been punished at all, but that was the only way to lesson the pain that is coming to the program. Paterno did the exact opposite of protecting his football team.

[Woodruff]

I disagree. Narrowly defining his position as looking out for the interests of his football team, his job is to quash anything that might hurt the football team. The criminal prosecution against Sandusky would have destroyed the team, and Paterno et al clearly thought they could manage it. Omitting his role as a moral citizen, which I think we can differentiate from his role as the operator of a big-time football program, Paterno did the "right" thing in trying to protect the program. And again, if players want to leave the school, they will be allowed to. People who want to try to restore Penn State's tattered reputation will be given the chance to.

Even if your narrow definition of his position was true (which it isn't), he still completely failed in "quashing anything that might hurt the football team". In fact, what Paterno didn't do was so terrible that he caused MUCH more damage to the team than if he had spoken up and not been the driving force in trying to cover it up.

That's exactly right. As I said earlier, if the right thing had been done and Sandusky had been taken into custody at that time, there would have been almost no damage done to the football program.

I guess I disagree with that last part, which is pretty much a judgment call. What do you think I did wrong about defining him as a football administrator? Are we supposed to believe the fiction that operators of college-football factories should be moral leaders of men?

No, we are supposed to believe that operators of college football factories should do the right thing when they have the opportunity to do so. We are supposed to believe that operators of college football factories won't allow crimes to be committed under their watch.

I'm really not sure why you disagree with me that there would have been almost no damage done if he had simply followed through and made sure the problem was taken care of. It would have a been a scandal, of course, but only because Sandusky was such a well-known individual within the Penn State program. But it would not have been a damaging incident, because in that situation, Paterno would have been seen doing EXACTLY WHAT HIS SUPPORTERS WOULD EXPECT HIM TO DO because of his persona. It would have been almost completely forgotten within five years, at the most. In fact, unlike Bones' position above, I will state that I don't believe Penn State would have received ANY punishment from the NCAA at all in that instance. It would simply have been viewed as a criminal case against one Penn State employee.

[BigBallinStalin]

I have addressed the abuse allegations specifically in the other thread (Paterno passed).

But, it is clear that many people here really don't know what he truly represented, why he is so revered in this area. I myself did not know all of it.

[summary: love letter to Paterno]

Per the last incident, I think the Chairman of Nike put it well. The Failure was not that Paterno did not report. He reported it to the head of campus police and the head of the university in full. The failure was in those people to investigate. AND.. it was very much those people's job, those people's duty to verify. Paterno's failure was in trusting that the people who were more directly trained in this to investigate it as well as THEY should have. Paterno stuck to what he knew and could do.

Yeah, he stuck it hard to the little boys' asses.

[Night Strike]

The fact that you defend this man with such vigor is embarrassing. It's a disgusting black mark, and should he still be alive he should be rotting in jail right next to Sandusky, maybe they could even jerk each other off.

But keep living in your happy little world where JoePa is a saint.
He deserves every bit of bad press he gets, and I hope hes rotting in hell.


-tig

And you base this opinion upon what.. this report? \
See, I base it upon the experiances of hundreds of people who knew the guy... and I am hardly giving him a complete pass.

How credible are all those people when they didn't know he was covering for child molestation? They obviously didn't know what was really going on with the guy.

[Night Strike]

NCAA Sanctions:

$60M fine
4-year postseason ban
5-year probation
vacate all wins from 1998-2011
loss of 10 scholarships each year for 4 years
all players able to transfer and play immediately

[GreecePwns]

Not the death penalty, but an absolutely huge one that is fully deserved.

"The NCAA said the $60 million was equivalent to the average annual revenue of the football program." -- ESPN

The way it read, it sounded like they lost 20 scholarships per year, not 10.

[AndyDufresne]

They 'lose' a 100+ wins I think during that time span. They were also toward the top of the record books.

The bowl ban will definitely be a challenge for them.


--Andy

[saxitoxin]

Well that story was neatly and efficiently wrapped up with Mark Emmert putting a nice red ribbon on it for Penn State. No need to bother trying to find out why prosecutors keep turning up dead in central Pennsylvania -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Luna

[BigBallinStalin]

Well that story was neatly and efficiently wrapped up with Mark Emmert putting a nice red ribbon on it for Penn State. No need to bother trying to find out why prosecutors keep turning up dead in central Pennsylvania -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Luna

Jonathan P. Luna (October 21, 1965–December 4, 2003) was a Baltimore-based Assistant United States Attorney who was stabbed 36 times with his own penknife and found drowned in a creek in Pennsylvania.

This guy reduced hari-kari to child's play.

[GreecePwns]

On the field, they instantly become one of the worst teams in the country.

Off the field, they lose a year of revenue and much more due in the future to the loss in fans (and if they have to move to a new conference because they can't compete in the one they are in now, they'll never be able to recover).

Should more have been done? I don't know. I hate college football enough as it is.


Edit: My second thoughts on the matter

As an educational institution, though, nothing will change. Just like the students who defended the statue of Joe Proven-paedophilia-enabler Paterno, and just like Player's defense of the man, the school and ommunity will still have that same insular culture.

Winning football games "will [still] matter more than educating, nuturing and protecting children." And it shouldn't. Ever. For any school.

And from that perspective, not enough has been done. I think Penn State's football program should have been ended entirely or banned until further notice.

[Woodruff]

NCAA Sanctions:

$60M fine
4-year postseason ban
5-year probation
vacate all wins from 1998-2011
loss of 10 scholarships each year for 4 years
all players able to transfer and play immediately

You've all heard me talk about this situation already, and how I am definitely on the side of "Paterno did wrong". However, I actually find these sanctions to be ridiculous. I understand that the NCAA is trying to send a message here, and I suppose there is value in that. Yet, this is really outside of the bounds of what the NCAA does. This is a criminal matter, not a student-athlete matter. The NCAA should not be involved in this way, in my opinion.

[Woodruff]

And from that perspective, not enough has been done. I think Penn State's football program should have been ended entirely or banned until further notice.

What would that accomplish? What would be the point?

[GreecePwns]

They wouldn't be able to put winning football games before education and protecting children from abuse if they couldn't win football games.

How do we know things will change at Penn State? Yeah, the football team will suck for quite a while, and yeah there won't be any more pedophilia (hopefully). But the culture of the school was the root cause of all this, and the punishment doesn't guarantee that it changes. Instead, you see students rioting over the coach leaving, defending him even after the facts are presented, and trying to stop the statue from being removed?

"Gawwww State! Yay! (oh hey, stop raping my kid, please) Yay State! I'm dedicating my next batch of moonshine to Old State!"

[PLAYER57832]

The fact that you defend this man with such vigor is embarrassing. It's a disgusting black mark, and should he still be alive he should be rotting in jail right next to Sandusky, maybe they could even jerk each other off.

But keep living in your happy little world where JoePa is a saint.
He deserves every bit of bad press he gets, and I hope hes rotting in hell.


-tig

And you base this opinion upon what.. this report? \
See, I base it upon the experiances of hundreds of people who knew the guy... and I am hardly giving him a complete pass.

How credible are all those people when they didn't know he was covering for child molestation? They obviously didn't know what was really going on with the guy.

More credible than folks who know only what they are reading and hearing on the media, for sure. You certainly don't know what went on. Was the report wrong or not? My main points have been that a LOT of ideas about child sexual abuse have changed in recent years, in some ways a lot like the ideas of sex discrimination/harassment against women have changed. In the case of women, things that used to be just taken for granted will now get an administrator in trouble. In the case of child abuse, people have come recently to recognize that this is not quite the extraordinary aberration committed only by obvious crazy/derelict guys no one really knows. I am NOT, contrary to what is implied, giving Paterno a "pass". I always said he did wrong, the question was why and how much and what should be done about it. I just think his main problem was not simply putting football above kids, but in not truly understanding the real and true seriousness of the situation and Sandusky's "illness" or "evil" (depending on your view). I think that power corrupts and that a person's ability to self-delude is phenomenal. The guy is dead and cannot defend himself. The institution, most of the administration remain. Paterno was powerful, he is dead.. and thus makes it easy to blame him. That said, yes, I am changing some of what I said earlier.

[Bones2484]

The reports aren't going off hearsay. They are using emails from that time that show Paterno as the one person in the school against turning in Sandusky. Specifically, emails that say something along the lines of "I talked with Joe and he convinced me to not pursue this further right now". He is a piece of scum who let additional children get RAPED in order to prevent damage to his football team. Him being dead has nothing to do with my opinion. I wish he were alive to see what his weak choices lead to. He got off easy.

Also, how many times do you hear people say about a terrorist/rapist/murderer: "He was always so nice! I never would have expected him to do that!". Spare me your pathetic "I know people who knew him and he isn't like this". Clearly, they were tricked.

[saxitoxin]

In the words of Mike Ozanian - "Joe Paterno turned out to be a really bad person."

And from that perspective, not enough has been done. I think Penn State's football program should have been ended entirely or banned until further notice.

I agree. Penn State should have been strongly encouraged to terminate D1A football. (If they want to field a Division III team, though, I think that would be fine.)

Chicago had one of the greatest football programs in the Big 10 until they abolished football and quit the conference. Now they're a well-run, academically rigorous school. At Chicago, Stagg Field was demolished and turned into a nuclear fission laboratory. Penn State could tear down Beaver Stadium and turn it into a field to study cows or whatever it is they're known for at Penn State.

[Woodruff]

The fact that you defend this man with such vigor is embarrassing. It's a disgusting black mark, and should he still be alive he should be rotting in jail right next to Sandusky, maybe they could even jerk each other off.

But keep living in your happy little world where JoePa is a saint.
He deserves every bit of bad press he gets, and I hope hes rotting in hell.

-tig

And you base this opinion upon what.. this report? \
See, I base it upon the experiances of hundreds of people who knew the guy... and I am hardly giving him a complete pass.

How credible are all those people when they didn't know he was covering for child molestation? They obviously didn't know what was really going on with the guy.

More credible than folks who know only what they are reading and hearing on the media, for sure. You certainly don't know what went on. Was the report wrong or not?

The Freeh Investigation was paid for by Penn State University. Given that, it's highly unlikely that it overstated things.

My main points have been that a LOT of ideas about child sexual abuse have changed in recent years, in some ways a lot like the ideas of sex discrimination/harassment against women have changed.

Irrelevant.

In the case of women, things that used to be just taken for granted will now get an administrator in trouble. In the case of child abuse, people have come recently to recognize that this is not quite the extraordinary aberration committed only by obvious crazy/derelict guys no one really knows.

Irrelevant.

I am NOT, contrary to what is implied, giving Paterno a "pass". I always said he did wrong, the question was why and how much and what should be done about it.

There's not really much question about that, to be honest. When something wasn't done by those he informed, he should have gone to the police. It's pretty cut-and-dried.

I just think his main problem was not simply putting football above kids, but in not truly understanding the real and true seriousness of the situation and Sandusky's "illness" or "evil" (depending on your view).

No, that is not the case, as outlined in the Freeh Report. The report explicitly states that until Sandusky was actually charged, Paterno and the other three showed NO concern for the child victims. That is a far different thing from "not understanding". The report also explicitly states that Paterno absolutely did "put the interests of the football program clearly above any concern for the child victims".

I think that power corrupts and that a person's ability to self-delude is phenomenal. The guy is dead and cannot defend himself. The institution, most of the administration remain. Paterno was powerful, he is dead.. and thus makes it easy to blame him. That said, yes, I am changing some of what I said earlier.

It doesn't seem that way, to be honest.

[PLAYER57832]

The reports aren't going off hearsay. They are using emails from that time that show Paterno as the one person in the school against turning in Sandusky. Specifically, emails that say something along the lines of "I talked with Joe and he convinced me to not pursue this further right now". He is a piece of scum who let additional children get RAPED in order to prevent damage to his football team. Him being dead has nothing to do with my opinion. I wish he were alive to see what his weak choices lead to. He got off easy.

Also, how many times do you hear people say about a terrorist/rapist/murderer: "He was always so nice! I never would have expected him to do that!". Spare me your pathetic "I know people who knew him and he isn't like this". Clearly, they were tricked.

That is not my position... at all.

My position is that by targeting Paterno, a lot of other people who should have been held culpable are being allowed to use Paterno as a scapegoat.

Also, I am not as confident that things would have turned out as you believe had this been pushed more... or, maybe the real thing is that if it had been, it would have been JUST because it was Paterno making this claim. That might seem great now, but at the time, I think it likely it would have been just "one more scandal". It was as likely to have wound up with Sandusky coming out as the "poor accused victim" of false charges.. much as he is trying to claim now. The difference is that back then, it likely would have flown.

I have reasons for what I say, but I am not going to explain further . It is really pointless, though I will reiterate that while I give Paterno, not a pass, but a bit of mitigation, I absolutely and completely do blame Spanier fully.

I am not involved in any Penn State decisions, I am not in Happy Valley even, nor am I on the jury for Sandusky. (would not be.... he would get the death penalty if I had any say in it, and attorneys tend to not want folks like that on a jury). My concern is really much more than Penn State, it is to see why these things happen at all and how we can prevent them in the future.

I just think all this targeting of Paterno gets in the way of that, of looking at the real causes. (and yes, i have already said that giving a particular program and one person so much power IS very much part of the problem, because whenever we do... the person always fails in one way or another). I fault the system that put Paterno in the position where he felt his every decion was as if from God.

I am glad for the sanctions. I am not sure it will be enough, but they do look to be things that may have real potential to impact the Penn State culture, to perhaps impact the culture of "football dominance" in many colleges. That gets into another topic entirely.. so I will leave it for another thread entirely.

[Woodruff]

The reports aren't going off hearsay. They are using emails from that time that show Paterno as the one person in the school against turning in Sandusky. Specifically, emails that say something along the lines of "I talked with Joe and he convinced me to not pursue this further right now". He is a piece of scum who let additional children get RAPED in order to prevent damage to his football team. Him being dead has nothing to do with my opinion. I wish he were alive to see what his weak choices lead to. He got off easy.

Also, how many times do you hear people say about a terrorist/rapist/murderer: "He was always so nice! I never would have expected him to do that!". Spare me your pathetic "I know people who knew him and he isn't like this". Clearly, they were tricked.

That is not my position... at all.

My position is that by targeting Paterno, a lot of other people who should have been held culpable are being allowed to use Paterno as a scapegoat.

No, they are almost certainly going to prison.

I have reasons for what I say, but I am not going to explain further . It is really pointless, though I will reiterate that while I give Paterno, not a pass, but a bit of mitigation, I absolutely and completely do blame Spanier fully.

You haven't looked at the Freeh Report yet, have you? Have you seen the references to emails among the four of them? To hold Spanier so fully to blame and not Paterno is simply misguided, at best.

[saxitoxin]

The reports aren't going off hearsay. They are using emails from that time that show Paterno as the one person in the school against turning in Sandusky. Specifically, emails that say something along the lines of "I talked with Joe and he convinced me to not pursue this further right now". He is a piece of scum who let additional children get RAPED in order to prevent damage to his football team. Him being dead has nothing to do with my opinion. I wish he were alive to see what his weak choices lead to. He got off easy.

Also, how many times do you hear people say about a terrorist/rapist/murderer: "He was always so nice! I never would have expected him to do that!". Spare me your pathetic "I know people who knew him and he isn't like this". Clearly, they were tricked.

That is not my position... at all.

My position is that by targeting Paterno, a lot of other people who should have been held culpable are being allowed to use Paterno as a scapegoat.

No, they are almost certainly going to prison.

I have reasons for what I say, but I am not going to explain further . It is really pointless, though I will reiterate that while I give Paterno, not a pass, but a bit of mitigation, I absolutely and completely do blame Spanier fully.

You haven't looked at the Freeh Report yet, have you? Have you seen the references to emails among the four of them? To hold Spanier so fully to blame and not Paterno is simply misguided, at best.

Well, still, you're missing the bigger picture that Google is raping kids already and, truly, THAT is what we really need to focus on.










edit - sorry gang, Player just hacked my account; I've updated my password so it shouldn't happen again

[john9blue]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved (a punishment on all penn state fans)

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

[Army of GOD]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved.

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

the guy's dead, I don't think any punishment towards him means much, regardless if I agree with you.

[saxitoxin]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved (a punishment on all penn state fans)

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

It's not like the guy was the volunteer football coach. He was paid tens of millions of dollars during his career for all the good he did.

[AAFitz]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved (a punishment on all penn state fans)

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

How much good does one need to do to not report rape and sexual assault?