Paterno

[PLAYER57832]

[ .

I have reasons for what I say, but I am not going to explain further . It is really pointless, though I will reiterate that while I give Paterno, not a pass, but a bit of mitigation, I absolutely and completely do blame Spanier fully.

You haven't looked at the Freeh Report yet, have you? Have you seen the references to emails among the four of them? To hold Spanier so fully to blame and not Paterno is simply misguided, at best.

I do hold Spanier as more guilty because I have heard Spanier speak on child abuse issues specifically.

Rereading what I wrote, I did sound as if I was excusing Paterno. In truth, I am not. He did wrong, no doubt. But, he is dead. Also, I think this idea we have that we have to see people as "heros" and that they have to be guiltless is wrong -- more than wrong, it is part of what causes these types of problems. I think we can be happy for the good things Paterno did, acknowledge them, without saying that his actions regarding Sandusky were OK.

[PLAYER57832]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved (a punishment on all penn state fans)

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

How much good does one need to do to not report rape and sexual assault?

If you want to hold someone guilty in THAT, it would be McGurdy.. he is the one who saw the activity and who should have gone straight to the police, without question. I would NEVER have gone "through the chain of command" on something like that.

This is part of what makes me concerned here about what so many people are saying. Its very easy to look at someone who is accused, never mind convicted, of a sex crime with children and basically say "well.. I could NEVER have missed that!". Yet, if people actually acted the way they say they do... many children would not be abused. I have made reports myself. Its NOT such an easy thing.. on anyone involved. Too many times, the child is put right back in an abusive situation or the abuser is left in situations that put other kids at risk. Way too many times, the accuser winds up in worse shape than the accused, no matter how sure one is.

Thankfully, that IS changing. I just saw a news report that a high official in the Roman Catholic church was convicted for not protecting children.. not becuase he himself assaulted the kids, but because he did not keep priests he knew were guilty away from kids, did not do what he should have. But, also remember... 10 years ago, those issues were ignored, too.

[saxitoxin]

[ .

I have reasons for what I say, but I am not going to explain further . It is really pointless, though I will reiterate that while I give Paterno, not a pass, but a bit of mitigation, I absolutely and completely do blame Spanier fully.

You haven't looked at the Freeh Report yet, have you? Have you seen the references to emails among the four of them? To hold Spanier so fully to blame and not Paterno is simply misguided, at best.

I do hold Spanier as more guilty because I have heard Spanier speak on child abuse issues specifically.

Rereading what I wrote, I did sound as if I was excusing Paterno. In truth, I am not. He did wrong, no doubt. But, he is dead. Also, I think this idea we have that we have to see people as "heros" and that they have to be guiltless is wrong -- more than wrong, it is part of what causes these types of problems. I think we can be happy for the good things Paterno did, acknowledge them, without saying that his actions regarding Sandusky were OK.

Fortunately, this is one of those rare occasions where we can put an exact dollar figure on the good Paterno did.

coaching - paid by Penn State to coach / good = $0
graduation - paid bonuses by Penn State for graduation rate / good = $0
donations to PSU- $9,000,000 / good = $9,000,000
estimated civil liability of PSU created as a result of Paterno's decision to cover-up felonies - $100,000,000 / good = -$100,000,000
NCAA fines for PSU created as a result of Paterno's decision to cover-up felonies - $60,000,000 / good = -$60,000,000
Loss of Big 10 revenue split for PSU created as a result of Paterno's decision to cover-up felonies - $13,000,000 / good = -$13,000,000

Paterno did (negative) -$164,000,000 worth of good.

Therefore, his estate will need to donate $164,000,001 to Penn State before we can say "Joe Paterno did one lousy dollar worth of good in his life." Until then he's a $164 million villain.

As professors lose their jobs because their endowment funding has been seized in fulfillment of court judgments, the women's volleyball team is eliminated, university properties are auctioned off ... that's all JoePa.

[PLAYER57832]

Therefore, his estate will need to donate $164,000,001 to Penn State before we can say "Joe Paterno did one lousy dollar worth of good in his life." Until then he's a $164 million villain.

The Penn State football program netted the university $64,000,000 a year, straight. That does not count the business enjoyed by various Happy Valley operations or the direct donations he and his wife did make to the university.

So, by that record.. the bill was paid long ago.

For me, the monetary issues are irrelevant or part of the problem. However, what I do see is that he made a positive difference in many, many young people's lives. And, did not do all he could have for one younger person.

[saxitoxin]

Therefore, his estate will need to donate $164,000,001 to Penn State before we can say "Joe Paterno did one lousy dollar worth of good in his life." Until then he's a $164 million villain.

The Penn State football program netted the university $64,000,000 a year, straight.

Penn State football netted the Penn State athletic department $64 million. Even marquee college athletic departments rarely return any significant funds - usually none - to the academic side of their campuses.

Further, your logic presupposes that - without Paterno - Penn State would have had no football program at all, which is nonsense. Notre Dame nets $68,000,000 a year, "straight", without Joe Paterno. They also do it without providing their assistant coaches with brothels of young boys.

[saxitoxin]

Therefore, his estate will need to donate $164,000,001 to Penn State before we can say "Joe Paterno did one lousy dollar worth of good in his life." Until then he's a $164 million villain.

The Penn State football program netted the university $64,000,000 a year, straight.

Penn State football netted the Penn State athletic department $64 million. Even marquee college athletic departments rarely return any significant funds - usually none - to the academic side of their campuses.

Further, your logic presupposes that - without Paterno - Penn State would have had no football program at all, which is nonsense. Notre Dame nets $68,000,000 a year, "straight", without Joe Paterno. They also do it without providing their assistant coaches with Ottoman-like brothels young boys.

And, did not do all he could have for one younger person.

Joe Paterno did not do all he could have for 20+ young persons who had an old man's penis repeatedly, forcibly jammed into their anus as they screamed in pain, their body tissue ripping and bleeding, in Joe Paterno's locker room or who were picked-up from camps held at Joe Paterno's practice facilities, while Joe Paterno emailed school staff and said they should not do anything about the young boys being repeatedly anally sodomized downstairs.

Honestly, part of the reason he didn't do anything - obviously was to protect his pay cheque - but probably also, a little bit, because he secretly fantasized about doing exactly what Sandusky was doing. By giving Sandusky a pass he was living out his dark fantasy vicariously. Joe Paterno was a wicked, deviant person.

[PLAYER57832]

Therefore, his estate will need to donate $164,000,001 to Penn State before we can say "Joe Paterno did one lousy dollar worth of good in his life." Until then he's a $164 million villain.

The Penn State football program netted the university $64,000,000 a year, straight.

Penn State football netted the Penn State athletic department $64 million. Even marquee college athletic departments rarely return any significant funds - usually none - to the academic side of their campuses.

In this case, you are wrong.. but as usual, if you were truly interested, the information is pretty easy to find.
Penn State is almost a private university, with a very large portion of its direct income, scholarships coming from the football proceeds. AND, the football program is often cited as a big reason for donations of various types.

Paterno's name is on qute a few academic buildings in Penn State (or was, anyway), including the library... becuase he, personally paid for them.

Further, your logic presupposes that - without Paterno - Penn State would have had no football program at all, which is nonsense. Notre Dame nets $68,000,000 a year, "straight", without Joe Paterno. They also do it without providing their assistant coaches with brothels of young boys.

Nice to see you are still not interested in anything but slurs.

And, did not do all he could have for one younger person.

Joe Paterno not do all he could have for twenty young persons who had an old man's penis repeatedly, forcibly jammed into their anus as they screamed in pain, their body tissue ripping and bleeding, in Joe Paterno's locker room, while Joe Paterno emailed school staff and said they should not do anything about the young boys being repeatedly anally sodomized downstairs.[/quote]
You are apparently privvy to details no one else is, then. Because that is actually not what the reports say happened.

[GreecePwns]

The reports don't say the locker room. I think it was the physiotherapy room, but if not I know for sure Joe Paterno saw it happening himself on school property.

[PLAYER57832]

The reports don't say the locker room. I think it was the physiotherapy room, but if not I know for sure Joe Paterno saw it happening himself on school property.

He did not. He got the report second-hand. That is not disputed.

[AAFitz]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved (a punishment on all penn state fans)

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

How much good does one need to do to not report rape and sexual assault?

If you want to hold someone guilty in THAT, it would be McGurdy.. he is the one who saw the activity and who should have gone straight to the police, without question. I would NEVER have gone "through the chain of command" on something like that.

This is part of what makes me concerned here about what so many people are saying. Its very easy to look at someone who is accused, never mind convicted, of a sex crime with children and basically say "well.. I could NEVER have missed that!". Yet, if people actually acted the way they say they do... many children would not be abused. I have made reports myself. Its NOT such an easy thing.. on anyone involved. Too many times, the child is put right back in an abusive situation or the abuser is left in situations that put other kids at risk. Way too many times, the accuser winds up in worse shape than the accused, no matter how sure one is.

Thankfully, that IS changing. I just saw a news report that a high official in the Roman Catholic church was convicted for not protecting children.. not becuase he himself assaulted the kids, but because he did not keep priests he knew were guilty away from kids, did not do what he should have. But, also remember... 10 years ago, those issues were ignored, too.

Well, my question was directed at John, because he is suggesting that by indirectly allowing a few more boys to get abused, is outweighed by all the good he did. What is the cutoff is my question.

A surgeon who saves lives?
A soup kitchen worker who feeds the hungry?
A clown who makes lots of people laugh?

Who gets to not inform police of abuse, when they see their superiors are ignoring, or covering it up?

I think what is sadistic, is to suggest that any amount of good, can outweigh, or even influence wrongdoing in such a case.

[saxitoxin]

In this case, you are wrong.. but as usual, if you were truly interested, the information is pretty easy to find.

Nope - Penn State athletics earns $116 million on ICA and spends $84 million. The maximum they could potentially be returning to academics is $32 million. However even that figure doesn't account for debt service on facilities, or the contribution of men's basketball to the overage (which may be a couple million).

Finally, PSU credits all athletic scholarships at in-state rates - a common accounting trick at D1A universities to perpetuate the myth of athletics "self-sustainability."

At best, PSU football was returning maybe $7 or $8 million a year up campus. Not $64 million. And not enough to make-up for the gigantic financial loss they'll take as a result of Paterno's choices.

Paterno's name is on qute a few academic buildings in Penn State (or was, anyway), including the library... becuase he, personally paid for them.

I already accounted for that in my calculation above, citing that he contributed $9,000,000 worth of good against $173,000,000 of bad to Penn State. Ergo, he committed $164 million of net bad.

Further, your logic presupposes that - without Paterno - Penn State would have had no football program at all, which is nonsense. Notre Dame nets $68,000,000 a year, "straight", without Joe Paterno. They also do it without providing their assistant coaches with brothels of young boys.

Nice to see you are still not interested in anything but slurs.

How is that a slur?

You are apparently privvy to details no one else is, then. Because that is actually not what the reports say happened.

You really need to read the Freeh Report before continuing your participation in this thread.

[saxitoxin]

The reports don't say the locker room. I think it was the physiotherapy room, but if not I know for sure Joe Paterno saw it happening himself on school property.

He did not. He got the report second-hand. That is not disputed.

You keep saying "report" and "young man" using singular words as though Paterno was only aware of one child who was repeatedly anally sodomized by his long-time friend and employee, though the Freeh report establishes Paterno was aware of multiple incidents of children being brutally raped.

Now, to speculate for a moment on things not contained in the report - it's clear to me that Paterno was definitely living out his own child rape fantasies through Jerry Sandusky. I wonder if Paterno, himself, ever raped young boys and just never got caught?

[GreecePwns]

Whoops I read that wrong.

[BigBallinStalin]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved (a punishment on all penn state fans)

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

The amount of good or bad is expressed through utility attained, but there's no valid method to compare utility (i.e. usefulness) across individuals. For example, some enjoy Paterno's achievements in football, and some dismay in the fact that he allowed a child rapist/molester to ruin their kids' live. How do these compare? They can't. Utilitarianism, which relies on some basis for comparing amounts of good and bad, is completely bunk; therefore, your first sentence becomes irrelevant.

Second, punishment is not about whether the fans deserve it or not. It's about enforcing the law, which according to the NCAA (or whichever organization stripped Paterno of his wins) was violated in whatever way they wish to justify it. That's their law, and that's enough on that issue. The main issue is that the NCAA isn't punishing the fans; it's punishing Paterno. Paterno's jeopardized his career and football record when he decided to act immorally. His own actions led to these consequences.

Now, the ruling by NCAA might be unjust; however, no one is screaming to punish the Penn state fans, as you've misconstrued it. Many are screaming to punish Paterno for his wrongful actions, and that's what actually happening.

In conclusion, the world isn't full of fucking sadists unless you believe in Utilitarianism and misconstrue the position of those calling for law and punishment.

[PLAYER57832]

The main issue is that the NCAA isn't punishing the fans; it's punishing Paterno. Paterno's jeopardized his career and football record when he decided to act immorally. His own actions led to these consequences.

They are punishing Penn State..as they should. Paterno is beyond punishment. Nor was he the only one guilty by a long shot in this.

But I agree with the first part you said.

[Woodruff]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved (a punishment on all penn state fans)

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

This punishment has nothing at all to do with justice, because it doesn't affect justice. This punishment has everything to do with "looking like they're taking a stand because of the overwhelmingly disgusting nature of the offense".

Justice in this case is being handled by the courts. This is a criminal matter, which makes it appropriate for the courts to handle. This is not at all an athletic department matter (it simply happened to occur in an athletic department), and so the NCAA should have no purview over it. That's why this ruling by the NCAA is ludicrous.

That being said, I don't think you can compare the good/evil like that, given what we obviously don't/didn't know about Paterno.

[Woodruff]

I have reasons for what I say, but I am not going to explain further . It is really pointless, though I will reiterate that while I give Paterno, not a pass, but a bit of mitigation, I absolutely and completely do blame Spanier fully.

You haven't looked at the Freeh Report yet, have you? Have you seen the references to emails among the four of them? To hold Spanier so fully to blame and not Paterno is simply misguided, at best.

I do hold Spanier as more guilty because I have heard Spanier speak on child abuse issues specifically.

That is a ludicrous position, in my opinion.

I think we can be happy for the good things Paterno did, acknowledge them, without saying that his actions regarding Sandusky were OK.

Of course.

[Woodruff]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved (a punishment on all penn state fans)

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

How much good does one need to do to not report rape and sexual assault?

If you want to hold someone guilty in THAT, it would be McGurdy.

Who the f*ck is McGurdy? Good Lord, you don't even know the names of the individuals involved! That isn't particularly close.

[Woodruff]

As professors lose their jobs because their endowment funding has been seized in fulfillment of court judgments, the women's volleyball team is eliminated, university properties are auctioned off ... that's all JoePa.

Of all the sports, the women's volleyball team won't be eliminated. It's actually a money maker. Probably moreso than their baseball or men's basketball teams.

[PLAYER57832]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved (a punishment on all penn state fans)

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

This punishment has nothing at all to do with justice, because it doesn't affect justice. This punishment has everything to do with "looking like they're taking a stand because of the overwhelmingly disgusting nature of the offense".

Justice in this case is being handled by the courts. This is a criminal matter, which makes it appropriate for the courts to handle. This is not at all an athletic department matter (it simply happened to occur in an athletic department), and so the NCAA should have no purview over it. That's why this ruling by the NCAA is ludicrous.

That being said, I don't think you can compare the good/evil like that, given what we obviously don't/didn't know about Paterno.

I am not sure I buy this, because if the institution had not built up Paterno and the football program as it had, then things could well have gone differently.

BUT... I am not sure that taking town the Penn State program will truly impact this hero=perfect="we have to defend ourselves from any accusations lest the 'program' be hurt".. idiocy.

Overall, I find a lot of the reactions here hypocritic.

[PLAYER57832]

You are apparently privvy to details no one else is, then. Because that is actually not what the reports say happened.

You really need to read the Freeh Report before continuing your participation in this thread.

I did misread or miss big sections of it. Apparently, Paterno was more guilty than I thought before.

[Woodruff]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved (a punishment on all penn state fans)

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

This punishment has nothing at all to do with justice, because it doesn't affect justice. This punishment has everything to do with "looking like they're taking a stand because of the overwhelmingly disgusting nature of the offense".

Justice in this case is being handled by the courts. This is a criminal matter, which makes it appropriate for the courts to handle. This is not at all an athletic department matter (it simply happened to occur in an athletic department), and so the NCAA should have no purview over it. That's why this ruling by the NCAA is ludicrous.

That being said, I don't think you can compare the good/evil like that, given what we obviously don't/didn't know about Paterno.

I am not sure I buy this, because if the institution had not built up Paterno and the football program as it had, then things could well have gone differently.

BUT... I am not sure that taking town the Penn State program will truly impact this hero=perfect="we have to defend ourselves from any accusations lest the 'program' be hurt".. idiocy.

Overall, I find a lot of the reactions here hypocritic.

I'm curious where you think I'm being hypocritical. (While realizing that you're not necessarily talking about me.)

[saxitoxin]

compare the amount of good that paterno did throughout his life with the amount of evil that he did (even though he didn't actually "do" it) with this incident.

then ask yourself whether you really think the punishment is deserved (a punishment on all penn state fans)

i swear this world is full of fucking sadists

This punishment has nothing at all to do with justice, because it doesn't affect justice. This punishment has everything to do with "looking like they're taking a stand because of the overwhelmingly disgusting nature of the offense".

Justice in this case is being handled by the courts. This is a criminal matter, which makes it appropriate for the courts to handle. This is not at all an athletic department matter (it simply happened to occur in an athletic department), and so the NCAA should have no purview over it. That's why this ruling by the NCAA is ludicrous.

Originally I agreed with this, however, it appears the NCAA laid-out a fairly strong case of actual book rules PSU violated.

(http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/pub ... 3/21207235)

For instance, employing Paterno as head coach, Penn State violated rule 19.01.2 which prohibits lecherous old men like Paterno from being hired by member schools as coaches-

19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct.

Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen.

[john9blue]

Fortunately, this is one of those rare occasions where we can put an exact dollar figure on the good Paterno did.

coaching - paid by Penn State to coach / good = $0
graduation - paid bonuses by Penn State for graduation rate / good = $0
donations to PSU- $9,000,000 / good = $9,000,000
estimated civil liability of PSU created as a result of Paterno's decision to cover-up felonies - $100,000,000 / good = -$100,000,000
NCAA fines for PSU created as a result of Paterno's decision to cover-up felonies - $60,000,000 / good = -$60,000,000
Loss of Big 10 revenue split for PSU created as a result of Paterno's decision to cover-up felonies - $13,000,000 / good = -$13,000,000

Paterno did (negative) -$164,000,000 worth of good.

Therefore, his estate will need to donate $164,000,001 to Penn State before we can say "Joe Paterno did one lousy dollar worth of good in his life." Until then he's a $164 million villain.

As professors lose their jobs because their endowment funding has been seized in fulfillment of court judgments, the women's volleyball team is eliminated, university properties are auctioned off ... that's all JoePa.

why are you including punishments against paterno in your figures? those were levied by others.

also, you blame paterno for the entire collection of fines, yet he was not the only one who did not report sandusky's crimes, so he does not deserve full responsibility.

Joe Paterno did not do all he could have for 20+ young persons who had an old man's penis repeatedly, forcibly jammed into their anus as they screamed in pain, their body tissue ripping and bleeding, in Joe Paterno's locker room or who were picked-up from camps held at Joe Paterno's practice facilities, while Joe Paterno emailed school staff and said they should not do anything about the young boys being repeatedly anally sodomized downstairs.

Honestly, part of the reason he didn't do anything - obviously was to protect his pay cheque - but probably also, a little bit, because he secretly fantasized about doing exactly what Sandusky was doing. By giving Sandusky a pass he was living out his dark fantasy vicariously. Joe Paterno was a wicked, deviant person.

your exaggerated and excruciatingly detailed fantasies say more about you than they do paterno

@ woody and bbs: if we can't compare good and evil, then what is the basis for morality? how are we supposed to make tough decisions with pros and cons?

does the slight improvement that paterno made in millions of lives not outweigh the misery that paterno (partially) allowed to happen in 20 lives? i am not comfortable with this guy suddenly having a legacy of shame because he made a tough decision that many other people would have also made (the decision to keep sandusky's actions a secret)

[kentington]

does the slight improvement that paterno made in millions of lives not outweigh the misery that paterno (partially) allowed to happen in 20 lives? i am not comfortable with this guy suddenly having a legacy of shame because he made a tough decision that many other people would have also made (the decision to keep sandusky's actions a secret)

No, that does not outweigh the misery that he fully allowed to happen. Anyone who allows children to be violated in such a way deserves a legacy of shame.
To say partially allowed to happen is a ridiculous statement. Everyone who did not report it and knew about it is fully responsible.
My aunt did this for my uncle. She kept quiet about his actions and allowed it to happen without reporting it. This kind of action continued until someone else reported it, his wife in her suicide note.
I believe my aunt should have gone to jail for child endangerment, neglect, and whatever else they could have thrown at her.

This is not a tough decision to make. Your character is shown by your decisions and in my opinion this was an easy one.