Sometimes I think the 4th Amendment No Longer Exists...

[PLAYER57832]

I am concerned about this, but I am far less concerned about a government who I can elect having this data than I am about a corporation who's only real and true purpose is to make its stockholders money .... and at pretty much all costs, limited only by the integrity of the leaders. (which, thankfully, is still usually limited).

The corporation who can attempt to sell you things, or the government who can force, jail and even kill you and who has the police, law and courts on their side?

The government does not have a mind of its own, it has the mind of the people who elect it.. and that changes every 2 years in the US.

And you are worried about google?

I don't know about anyone else, but I prefer popup adds over some malignant force of nature that calls itself government who can compel me to do pretty much anything they want. Apparently, government can even make be buy things under threat of fine and/or jail. The government even has the power to indefinitely detain me if they even suspect I may be a "terrorist". A corporation who cannot take my money without my consent (except for the insurance industry it seems), compared to government who forcibly takes money from me every single day of my life.

Actually corporations can do all of that.. and they are quite capable of controlling governments. This is not about "pop ups", but nice to see you have bought their rhetoric. It is about control.. of what you know and therefore the decisions you make, including how you vote.

Ours government is large enough to be unweildy, so is still "just" "influenced" dangerous, but we can still change it. I have to hope people WILL take their power to change and not just keep turning more and more over to the corporations.

Else, there soon won't be a distinction between Google/Microsoft and the Government.

Ok. Your mind is way out there but I sincerely pray your trust in government is not sorely misplaced.....For my own sake as well as yours.

Trust? I trust in myself. I HAVE to trust that people will actually vote somewhat sensibly and stop passing more and more power over to corporations. The government is worrisome, but the government is the ONLY entity large enough to keep corporate power in check.

[BigBallinStalin]

I don't think its so much that the fourth amendment is broken as that it is quickly no longer applying, except to the government.

I'm pretty sure the Fourth Amendment has ONLY EVER applied to the government. That's the problem...they're not applying it.

No, but in the past, searches conducted by others were called "Tresspass" or even "home invasion". The government was the only entity that had any right to such invasion, so only the government specifically required a constitutional amendment.

I am concerned about this, but I am far less concerned about a government who I can elect having this data than I am about a corporation who's only real and true purpose is to make its stockholders money .... and at pretty much all costs, limited only by the integrity of the leaders. (which, thankfully, is still usually limited).

You don't elect a government. You participate in an election for a minute percentage of politicians, with varying degrees of control over various areas. Everyone's vote hardly influences the selection of bureaucrats and the daily operations of bureaucracies because a vote is only applied to a broad political package of promises, a greater number of which are not even accomplished. And, your vote is not at influential after the final four years of a president's term. Talk about a serious problem of serving the public; the president has little need for pleasing voters because there won't be any.

Although the principal-agent problem does plague many corporations--especially in regard to the interests of the shareholders, profit and loss incentives align behavior for the better for most corporations. But sometimes, these incentives are trumped by... political favoritism. The government intervenes in the market at the benefit of a minority of corporations and businesses, and that's a fact which can't be ignored, yet is continually ignored by you and many like you.

[PLAYER57832]

[ The government intervenes in the market at the benefit of a minority of corporations and businesses, and that's a fact which can't be ignored, yet is continually ignored by you and many like you.

I challenge you to prove I have truly ignored this. In fact, I have stated this over and over.

But, the truth still remains that the only entity that can possibly control the corporations is government. AND.. sometimes, albiet brief moments in time, it has actually done that.

Will it happen again? Probably not, but a bit of hope is healthy. If it doesn't, humanity is doomed, quite literally.

[patches70]

But, the truth still remains that the only entity that can possibly control the corporations is government. AND.. sometimes, albiet brief moments in time, it has actually done that.

Whoa, there is an entity that controls corporations much better than government. In fact, this entity even knocks governments on it's ass when government's hubris thinks it can control this entity. The entity in question cannot be controlled, but it can be destroyed. All attempts to control this entity only serve to toss the would be controller for a hell of a loop.

The entity, of course, is The Market. The market always punishes, eventually, those who disregard her or try to control her. She also rewards those who are wise and prudent and she serves all mankind.

[PLAYER57832]

But, the truth still remains that the only entity that can possibly control the corporations is government. AND.. sometimes, albiet brief moments in time, it has actually done that.

Whoa, there is an entity that controls corporations much better than government. In fact, this entity even knocks governments on it's ass when government's hubris thinks it can control this entity. The entity in question cannot be controlled, but it can be destroyed. All attempts to control this entity only serve to toss the would be controller for a hell of a loop.

The entity, of course, is The Market. The market always punishes, eventually, those who disregard her or try to control her. She also rewards those who are wise and prudent and she serves all mankind.

Pure BULL!
The market does not really respond to human needs. It responds to immediate wants... and then serves to cheat us as much as possible, make us happy to pay more for less and less and less.

My grandmother's toaster worked quite well, lasted decades. I have yet to buy one that lasts more than 5.. and though some do have larger slots for bagels, etc, there is no real significant improvement. Pick any item, any issue and the story is similar.

BUT.. there is a more important issue. Look at all the hoopla over Paterno/Penn State. Now look at how many BP employees are in jail? ... or Massy energy officials... or multitudes of other companies that willfully and intentionally created dangerous products or destroyed local areas for their personal gain (oh, yeah, and the "greater good" of your "market").

The market serves the personal greed of those at the top.. and not much else. Everthing else is temporary.

[BigBallinStalin]

Well put.

This could symbolize your agreement with me, or it could represent your mocking everyone ITT.

Are you mocking me?! Tell me. I will definitely find it acceptable!

[Lootifer]

It was aimed at everyone in this thread with the following exceptions:
- Saxitoxin
- BigBallinStalin
- Myself

And it certainly wasnt aimed as Esmaralda, wink wink, nudge nudge, chaknowaddameen?

[saxitoxin]

The most dystopian future in which the government misuses your information has Obama ordering your 15 year old son to be burned alive in a Hellfire missile strike because you criticized his foreign policy.

The former may happen. The latter happened in 2011.

Not really, no.

I make no pretense that government actions in war are all legitimate, but to claim that a 15 year old was targeted by Obama is indeed idiotic.

Demonstrable Fact 1: a child from Colorado was killed in a U.S. Hellfire missile salvo in Yemen that occurred while Obama was president
Demonstrable Fact 2: a wide consensus of opinion by groups like the ACLU believes that child was intentionally targeted to punish the family
Demonstrable Fact 3: Obama personally approves all drone strikes in Yemen

Seems like you like little boys being raped by your favorite football programmes and being burned alive by your favorite politicians? Hey, as long as you keep getting those treats and goodies from gummint, it's all good!

So, relax, don't worry, forget everything and have a good sleep tonight. These guys think their baseball teammate being burned alive was worth you getting your treats and goodies -->

Fighting back tears, his gaze fixed downward, al-Homiganyi, a lean-looking 15-year-old from the outskirts of Sana’a, told TIME, “He was my best friend, we played football together everyday.” Another of his friends spoke up, gesturing to the gloomy group of jeans-clad boys around him: “He was the same as us. He liked swimming, playing computer games, watching movies … you know, normal stuff.”

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/u-s-dr ... n-citizen/

[saxitoxin]

[BigBallinStalin]

[ The government intervenes in the market at the benefit of a minority of corporations and businesses, and that's a fact which can't be ignored, yet is continually ignored by you and many like you.

I challenge you to prove I have truly ignored this. In fact, I have stated this over and over.

But, the truth still remains that the only entity that can possibly control the corporations is government. AND.. sometimes, albiet brief moments in time, it has actually done that.

Will it happen again? Probably not, but a bit of hope is healthy. If it doesn't, humanity is doomed, quite literally.

When you say things like "that is, microsoft and Google can already obtain, already have far more information in far more dangerous ways than the government and with far fewer limits," then I really have good evidence to doubt your ability to understand the role of government, as it actually is. See? I just used your own statements to challenge your own claim that you "don't ignore this" and "have stated this over and over." Your own statements refute your own claim, and this occurs often. Maybe you're incoherence prevents you from realizing this.

[Woodruff]

I am concerned about this, but I am far less concerned about a government who I can elect having this data than I am about a corporation who's only real and true purpose is to make its stockholders money .... and at pretty much all costs, limited only by the integrity of the leaders. (which, thankfully, is still usually limited).

The corporation who can attempt to sell you things, or the government who can force, jail and even kill you and who has the police, law and courts on their side?

The government does not have a mind of its own, it has the mind of the people who elect it.. and that changes every 2 years in the US.

I'm not seeing much change. Sure, the faces may change...but that's not real change in and of itself. And I'm not seeing much other than the same bought-and-paid-for elected officials.

Ok. Your mind is way out there but I sincerely pray your trust in government is not sorely misplaced.....For my own sake as well as yours.

Trust? I trust in myself. I HAVE to trust that people will actually vote somewhat sensibly and stop passing more and more power over to corporations. The government is worrisome, but the government is the ONLY entity large enough to keep corporate power in check.

The government has pulled up to the corporate power trough, and is feeding greedily on it. And it's been eating for a while now.

And by the way, the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply to corporations. This thread is about the government ignoring it.

[BigBallinStalin]

I am concerned about this, but I am far less concerned about a government who I can elect having this data than I am about a corporation who's only real and true purpose is to make its stockholders money .... and at pretty much all costs, limited only by the integrity of the leaders. (which, thankfully, is still usually limited).

The corporation who can attempt to sell you things, or the government who can force, jail and even kill you and who has the police, law and courts on their side?

The government does not have a mind of its own, it has the mind of the people who elect it.. and that changes every 2 years in the US.

I'm not seeing much change. Sure, the faces may change...but that's not real change in and of itself. And I'm not seeing much other than the same bought-and-paid-for elected officials.

A valid point, Woodruff, and the beliefs expressed by PLAYER and many like her confound me. It's incredible that so much faith is placed into a system which causes the problems which she rails against.

Furthermore, this belief in voting as an effective change mechanism on politicians is equally confounding. If one supports the politicians who contribute and support the main problems, then why does she expect to see a difference in the outcomes? Also, the bureaucrats who are the main proponents of political capitalism are hardly affecting by voting. Is she aware that voting fails to address this?

Quote: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

[saxitoxin]

[PLAYER57832]

[ The government intervenes in the market at the benefit of a minority of corporations and businesses, and that's a fact which can't be ignored, yet is continually ignored by you and many like you.

I challenge you to prove I have truly ignored this. In fact, I have stated this over and over.

But, the truth still remains that the only entity that can possibly control the corporations is government. AND.. sometimes, albiet brief moments in time, it has actually done that.

Will it happen again? Probably not, but a bit of hope is healthy. If it doesn't, humanity is doomed, quite literally.

When you say things like "that is, microsoft and Google can already obtain, already have far more information in far more dangerous ways than the government and with far fewer limits," then I really have good evidence to doubt your ability to understand the role of government, as it actually is. See? I just used your own statements to challenge your own claim that you "don't ignore this" and "have stated this over and over." Your own statements refute your own claim, and this occurs often. Maybe you're incoherence prevents you from realizing this.

Well, my answer was largely sarcastic.

Even so, I could answer this 2 ways. First, is that I am denying the power of the government OR is it that some people in this forum are grossly underestimating the power of Microsoft?
Microsoft is still a sleeping giant, but a giant it remains, and it is waking.

But, I believe your point is that I have been saying that government is the only entity that CAN reign in private corporations ( and that my above response seems to contradict this). I hold by that. The question is if they have.

The problem here is that for government power to be effective, it has to be supported by the people of the nation. The right wing has been very successful in dissuading people from acting with/using the government effectively.. presenting the illusion that all we have to do is give corporations more power and suddenly all will be well through competition. The tighter they make things, the more people want quick and easy answers... and "let the big guys deal with all this" is a pretty easy answer.

Saying "we ALL need to tighten our belts".. We ALL need to take responsibility for our individual actions, pay attention to everything from the sources of our information to the damage we do to the Earth to even how our nation's policies impact the world around...all of that takes a lot of work. The left loses because they provide difficult answers instead of easy ones. Add in "pray to God and all will be well"... which truly is what a certain segment of churches very much say.. and you have a situation where the government has power, but the only ones orchestrating and using the power are the very entities it ought to be reigning in.. namely corporations.

But that is a tad too serious for these forums. a tad too truthful, even for me.

[PLAYER57832]

And by the way, the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply to corporations. This thread is about the government ignoring it.

Yes, but why?

And.. if corporations have free speech, then why not all these other rights?

[Woodruff]

And by the way, the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply to corporations. This thread is about the government ignoring it.

Yes, but why?

Well, the answer depends on which question you're asking.

Are you asking why the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply to corporations? If so, that should be patently obvious...the Constitution applies to the government, not to private or public entities.

And.. if corporations have free speech, then why not all these other rights?

What other rights? I'm not sure what you're getting at here.