Rmoney and Taxes

[patrickaa317]

Nope. Your capital gains tax would be on the $72000 profit (hence the word "gains"). The $8000 would be part of your regular wages.

So you understand the difference between capital gains vs wages but yet you were surprised that Romney had zero "regular wages"?

[GreecePwns]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Don't move the goalposts here, buddy. You claimed that the same money was being taxed twice, which is obviously not true.

I'm not surprised at all that Romney had zero "regular wages." I'm surprised that people believe that he should be paying half the tax rate of a person who had an equal amount of regular wages.

[BigBallinStalin]

Wait, if I earn $10,000 as a wage, it becomes taxed.

The remainder I invest, which yields a profit of $10,000. This is also taxed.

So, my wage is taxed, and money from my wage used on investments is taxed.

My money is being taxed twice.


I know the central planners won't like this, but why not tax all income at some progressive/flat rate, instead of taxing different forms of income at different rates? Why not let people decide what is most profitable for them, without having the state manipulating incentives through tax policy?

[GreecePwns]

We're in total agreement on your last point, though again, your money isn't being taxed twice.

The money you have left after income tax is not included in what you pay for capital gains tax. Unless I got it totally wrong. only the profits from capital gains tax are taxed (i.e. money in excess of your original investment).

Capital gains is individual income. Wages are individual income.

[Woodruff]

I don't get the insanity about this issue, and I think it's another losing tactic, even objectively.

You seemed to have a different view of a similar situation not long ago.

Release Obama's College transcripts!

Oh, there it is...

[Woodruff]

And no, I am not endorsing the a flat tax or a fair tax. Fair tax because it places the heaviest burden of taxes on the middle class, creating an even greater rich-poor divide. Flat tax because flat taxes are effectively regressive due to the diminishing marginal utility of dollars.

Why is it the government's job to even out all the money?

Aren't you the one whining about the rich paying "more than their fair share"?

[patrickaa317]

And no, I am not endorsing the a flat tax or a fair tax. Fair tax because it places the heaviest burden of taxes on the middle class, creating an even greater rich-poor divide. Flat tax because flat taxes are effectively regressive due to the diminishing marginal utility of dollars.

Why is it the government's job to even out all the money?

Aren't you the one whining about the rich paying "more than their fair share"?

Re-read his question, NS is wondering why the government is in charge of evening out the money.

[Woodruff]

And no, I am not endorsing the a flat tax or a fair tax. Fair tax because it places the heaviest burden of taxes on the middle class, creating an even greater rich-poor divide. Flat tax because flat taxes are effectively regressive due to the diminishing marginal utility of dollars.

Why is it the government's job to even out all the money?

Aren't you the one whining about the rich paying "more than their fair share"?

Re-read his question, NS is wondering why the government is in charge of evening out the money.

Correct. While at the same time complaining about the rich paying "more than their fair share". In other words, he wants to complain that the government is making the rich pay more (well, the suggestion that the government MIGHT do so) while at the same time complaining that the government is in charge of evening out the money. To sum, he wants his cake and to be able to eat it too.

[patrickaa317]

And no, I am not endorsing the a flat tax or a fair tax. Fair tax because it places the heaviest burden of taxes on the middle class, creating an even greater rich-poor divide. Flat tax because flat taxes are effectively regressive due to the diminishing marginal utility of dollars.

Why is it the government's job to even out all the money?

Aren't you the one whining about the rich paying "more than their fair share"?

Re-read his question, NS is wondering why the government is in charge of evening out the money.

Correct. While at the same time complaining about the rich paying "more than their fair share". In other words, he wants to complain that the government is making the rich pay more (well, the suggestion that the government MIGHT do so) while at the same time complaining that the government is in charge of evening out the money. To sum, he wants his cake and to be able to eat it too.

It's the same thing. He's saying that the government is trying to even out the money by taking more and more of the rich mans money. He doesn't like that.

If the government wasn't trying to even out the size of people's wallets, they wouldn't be always pushing for such a higher tax rate among the rich.

[Woodruff]

And no, I am not endorsing the a flat tax or a fair tax. Fair tax because it places the heaviest burden of taxes on the middle class, creating an even greater rich-poor divide. Flat tax because flat taxes are effectively regressive due to the diminishing marginal utility of dollars.

Why is it the government's job to even out all the money?

Aren't you the one whining about the rich paying "more than their fair share"?

Re-read his question, NS is wondering why the government is in charge of evening out the money.

Correct. While at the same time complaining about the rich paying "more than their fair share". In other words, he wants to complain that the government is making the rich pay more (well, the suggestion that the government MIGHT do so) while at the same time complaining that the government is in charge of evening out the money. To sum, he wants his cake and to be able to eat it too.

It's the same thing. He's saying that the government is trying to even out the money by taking more and more of the rich mans money. He doesn't like that.

If the government wasn't trying to even out the size of people's wallets, they wouldn't be always pushing for such a higher tax rate among the rich.

Ok, I think I've got you. I was confusing things. Well explained. Thanks.

[patrickaa317]

Why is it the government's job to even out all the money?

Aren't you the one whining about the rich paying "more than their fair share"?

Re-read his question, NS is wondering why the government is in charge of evening out the money.

Correct. While at the same time complaining about the rich paying "more than their fair share". In other words, he wants to complain that the government is making the rich pay more (well, the suggestion that the government MIGHT do so) while at the same time complaining that the government is in charge of evening out the money. To sum, he wants his cake and to be able to eat it too.

It's the same thing. He's saying that the government is trying to even out the money by taking more and more of the rich mans money. He doesn't like that.

If the government wasn't trying to even out the size of people's wallets, they wouldn't be always pushing for such a higher tax rate among the rich.

Ok, I think I've got you. I was confusing things. Well explained. Thanks.

No problem, been there many a time myself.

[Night Strike]

Let's assume for one moment that Romney legally took deductions to the point where he paid 0% of his money in federal income taxes (remember that 47% of the country already pays that amount). Wouldn't this say much more about that type of system that allows people to find every single deduction possible than the person who actually takes advantage of such a system? And if you are a person who decries Romney taking deductions on his taxes, do you look to find every single deduction possible that you qualify for? Wouldn't you then be doing the exact thing you're pounding on Romney for doing? Every single person in the United States has the ability to take deductions that they have qualified for: there aren't any deductions written specifically for one person that no one else gets.

Furthermore, if you think it's unfair for Romney to take such deductions, are you also going out and pushing for either the Fair Tax or the Flat Tax? Because both of those would eliminate all those deductions that you are decrying Romney for taking.

In other words, don't hate the player, hate the game.

So, do you blame those for remaining on welfare because of their own personal traits, or do you blame the game for providing those incentives?

When it comes to welfare, most of the blame should still lie on the system that provides those incentives to stay on welfare (and no longer stigmatizes or dissuades people from being on it). Heck, the government has been running ads to get people to join! However, I think more blame should lie on the welfare recipient then the person taking tax deductions when comparing them to each other because they are treating money and wealth fundamentally differently. A person looking for deductions is looking for legal ways to keep more of their own money while a person on welfare is looking to take money from someone else.

[GreecePwns]

Actually, his point was that its the same thing but with a negative sign in front.

[BigBallinStalin]

Actually, his point was that its the same thing but with a negative sign in front.

Pretty much. Both the welfare recipients and the "tax avoiders" (which isn't entirely true) use similar means to receive more benefits. Since many within each group use the system to their advantage, then it seems to be contradictory for someone to partially blame those welfare recipients while leveling no blame against those who act like Romney.

I'd place all blame on the government for establishing those incentives for both groups of people. The government causes this systemic problem, yet its politicians and chief bureaucrats perform ineffectively in correcting this problem.

[patrickaa317]

Actually, his point was that its the same thing but with a negative sign in front.

Pretty much. Both the welfare recipients and the "tax avoiders" (which isn't entirely true) use similar means to receive more benefits. Since many within each group use the system to their advantage, then it seems to be contradictory for someone to partially blame those welfare recipients while leveling no blame against those who act like Romney.

I'd place all blame on the government for establishing those incentives for both groups of people. The government causes this systemic problem, yet its politicians and chief bureaucrats perform ineffectively in correcting this problem.

Not sure I have ever done this on a BBS post.

+1

[BigBallinStalin]

Actually, his point was that its the same thing but with a negative sign in front.

Pretty much. Both the welfare recipients and the "tax avoiders" (which isn't entirely true) use similar means to receive more benefits. Since many within each group use the system to their advantage, then it seems to be contradictory for someone to partially blame those welfare recipients while leveling no blame against those who act like Romney.

I'd place all blame on the government for establishing those incentives for both groups of people. The government causes this systemic problem, yet its politicians and chief bureaucrats perform ineffectively in correcting this problem.

Not sure I have ever done this on a BBS post.

+1

And then you'd give me a -1 when I continue with:

"Due to the problems of central planning, which Public Choice illuminates, public policy must be shifted to alternatives such as the free market. The introduction of competition must be forced into the traditional monopolies of government (legal systems, welfare production, police, certification agencies like the FDA, etc.), and its state-mandated monopolies to specific businesses must be ended (which would include the state's monopoly of the legal system on patents).

[Night Strike]

And then you'd give me a -1 when I continue with:

"Due to the problems of central planning, which Public Choice illuminates, public policy must be shifted to alternatives such as the free market. The introduction of competition must be forced into the traditional monopolies of government (legal systems, welfare production, police, certification agencies like the FDA, etc.), and its state-mandated monopolies to specific businesses must be ended (which would include the state's monopoly of the legal system on patents).

The protection of patents is actually a specific task assigned to the federal government by the Constitution. Same with the general legal system.

[PLAYER57832]

And then you'd give me a -1 when I continue with:

"Due to the problems of central planning, which Public Choice illuminates, public policy must be shifted to alternatives such as the free market. The introduction of competition must be forced into the traditional monopolies of government (legal systems, welfare production, police, certification agencies like the FDA, etc.), and its state-mandated monopolies to specific businesses must be ended (which would include the state's monopoly of the legal system on patents).

The protection of patents is actually a specific task assigned to the federal government by the Constitution. Same with the general legal system.

Except private companies have long since subverted the patent system.

Per the legal system, that is true if you refer to basic criminal law or very minor civil issues, a few other issues. However, you don't see big people really and truly taking down the big companies. You see illusions of that, but not reality.

[patrickaa317]

Actually, his point was that its the same thing but with a negative sign in front.

Pretty much. Both the welfare recipients and the "tax avoiders" (which isn't entirely true) use similar means to receive more benefits. Since many within each group use the system to their advantage, then it seems to be contradictory for someone to partially blame those welfare recipients while leveling no blame against those who act like Romney.

I'd place all blame on the government for establishing those incentives for both groups of people. The government causes this systemic problem, yet its politicians and chief bureaucrats perform ineffectively in correcting this problem.

Not sure I have ever done this on a BBS post.

+1

And then you'd give me a -1 when I continue with:

"Due to the problems of central planning, which Public Choice illuminates, public policy must be shifted to alternatives such as the free market. The introduction of competition must be forced into the traditional monopolies of government (legal systems, welfare production, police, certification agencies like the FDA, etc.), and its state-mandated monopolies to specific businesses must be ended (which would include the state's monopoly of the legal system on patents).

I wouldn't give you a -1 for that. You must have me confused with someone else.

[Phatscotty]

All Obama has to do is release his college records, and Romney will release everything he has over his entire life.

It's not like Romney's tax records are "sealed" like Obama's college records are "sealed". That means Obama made the decision to make sure nobody can see his transcript. Is Romney that worried about his taxes? I don't think so

Obama is the one with stuff to hide, and one thing he can hide no longer is that fact the he registered to Occidental College as a foreign exchange student

[GreecePwns]

Obama released 10 years of tax records willingly (Biden too), and his birth certificate after pressure from conservatives groups. He is being asked to release college transcripts.

Romney released one page of a tax return after pressure from liberal groups, and nothing else. Romney is being asked to released full tax returns.

I don't know how the two are even comparable.

[patrickaa317]

Obama released 10 years of tax records willingly (Biden too), and his birth certificate after pressure from conservatives groups. He is being asked to release college transcripts.

Romney released one page of a tax return after pressure from liberal groups, and nothing else. Romney is being asked to released full tax returns.

I don't know how the two are even comparable.

Perhaps Romney will wait a couple years after being in office to release the tax records? Then there may be some discrepancies in the document that won't be researched or discussed further but you'll just have to be ok with it because they were released and questioning them further just makes you that much crazier.

[Symmetry]

Obama released 10 years of tax records willingly (Biden too), and his birth certificate after pressure from conservatives groups. He is being asked to release college transcripts.

Romney released one page of a tax return after pressure from liberal groups, and nothing else. Romney is being asked to released full tax returns.

I don't know how the two are even comparable.

Perhaps Romney will wait a couple years after being in office to release the tax records? Then there may be some discrepancies in the document that won't be researched or discussed further but you'll just have to be ok with it because they were released and questioning them further just makes you that much crazier.

Weird.

[Phatscotty]

Obama released 10 years of tax records willingly (Biden too), and his birth certificate after pressure from conservatives groups. He is being asked to release college transcripts.

Romney released one page of a tax return after pressure from liberal groups, and nothing else. Romney is being asked to released full tax returns.

I don't know how the two are even comparable.

Perhaps Romney will wait a couple years after being in office to release the tax records? Then there may be some discrepancies in the document that won't be researched or discussed further but you'll just have to be ok with it because they were released and questioning them further just makes you that much crazier.

rightttt, and all the Obama-lovers who were defending Obama for not having to release any records will 100% understand when Romney does the same thing with his records, right?!

Romney's tax records are on the way

[GreecePwns]

What are you going to find in Obama's college transcript that will be of vital voting importance?