A Creationist's Science Text Book

[BigBallinStalin]

The part I can't figure out was if only god was there to see what he did, he must have written millions of bibles for people to find and read about his most awesome creationist exploits. However, I am pretty sure all bibles have been made by men. I then wonder why did they write such a book? What did they have to gain?

Oh please, if you wish to counter idiocy, you cannot do it by voicing idiocy yourself. God inspired people to write the Bible, gave people the message when people were ready. You will find that ALL religions pretty much give some sort of version of that.

Yeah, but instead of "Christian God," they'll say inspiration came from YHWH, Allah, the Supreme Being, Krishnu, The First Buddha, Zeus, Ra, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.

We can say with high accuracy that all these works were perceived to be inspired each by a particular supernatural entity. We could further expand that and say, "they were all inspired by the Deistic Whatever," but that's unfalsifiable--as far as I know, and anyone who's tried proving it. However, saying "they were all inspired by God" (i.e. the Christian God) would be incorrect because clearly they weren't, as they say so themselves.

[Juan_Bottom]

[Haggis_McMutton]

scarier than most horror movies.

[Juan_Bottom]

That's no joke. But I personally know fundamentalists who were forced to watch that film and saw nothing amiss.

8:20 "C'mon kids we're gonna pray in tongues! Don't stop, Don't stop!"

[Haggis_McMutton]

That's no joke. But I personally know fundamentalists who were forced to watch that film and saw nothing amiss.

8:20 "C'mon kids we're gonna pray in tongues! Don't stop, Don't stop!"

y'know, I can almost get how they wouldn't mind all the religious craziness.

but groveling in front of an effigy of Bush, really? ffs ...

[PLAYER57832]

The part I can't figure out was if only god was there to see what he did, he must have written millions of bibles for people to find and read about his most awesome creationist exploits. However, I am pretty sure all bibles have been made by men. I then wonder why did they write such a book? What did they have to gain?

Oh please, if you wish to counter idiocy, you cannot do it by voicing idiocy yourself. God inspired people to write the Bible, gave people the message when people were ready. You will find that ALL religions pretty much give some sort of version of that.

Yeah, but instead of "Christian God," they'll say inspiration came from YHWH, Allah, the Supreme Being, Krishnu, The First Buddha, Zeus, Ra, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.

We can say with high accuracy that all these works were perceived to be inspired each by a particular supernatural entity. We could further expand that and say, "they were all inspired by the Deistic Whatever," but that's unfalsifiable--as far as I know, and anyone who's tried proving it. However, saying "they were all inspired by God" (i.e. the Christian God) would be incorrect because clearly they weren't, as they say so themselves.

Wrong thread. Not debating God here, only young Earth Creationist textbooks.

MY point is that dismissing everyone with young earth ideas as idiots won't advance science. They are a powerful group. So many people laughing and pretending they are all idiots is exactly why they have grown and now hold a good deal of power and influence in the US.

To put it another way... never underestimate your enemy. And they ARE "the enemy" when it comes to truth.

[notyou2]

Seeing as how no one answered my questions, and one poster resorted to calling me an idiot, I will answer my questions.

Man created the bible to lord it over his fellow man. For power and wealth. For land and war. Do as I say or you will be ostracized at the least or killed at the most.

These practices appear in all religions that I am aware of, not just christianity.

When will man wise up and banish religion?

[Woodruff]

MY point is that dismissing everyone with young earth ideas as idiots won't advance science. They are a powerful group. So many people laughing and pretending they are all idiots is exactly why they have grown and now hold a good deal of power and influence in the US.

To put it another way... never underestimate your enemy. And they ARE "the enemy" when it comes to truth.

I find myself in agreement with PLAYER on this. Although I will also still laugh at them as idiots, they are idiots that need to be taken very seriously, because they are currently directly impacting the education of children.

[BigBallinStalin]

The part I can't figure out was if only god was there to see what he did, he must have written millions of bibles for people to find and read about his most awesome creationist exploits. However, I am pretty sure all bibles have been made by men. I then wonder why did they write such a book? What did they have to gain?

Oh please, if you wish to counter idiocy, you cannot do it by voicing idiocy yourself. God inspired people to write the Bible, gave people the message when people were ready. You will find that ALL religions pretty much give some sort of version of that.

Yeah, but instead of "Christian God," they'll say inspiration came from YHWH, Allah, the Supreme Being, Krishnu, The First Buddha, Zeus, Ra, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.

We can say with high accuracy that all these works were perceived to be inspired each by a particular supernatural entity. We could further expand that and say, "they were all inspired by the Deistic Whatever," but that's unfalsifiable--as far as I know, and anyone who's tried proving it. However, saying "they were all inspired by God" (i.e. the Christian God) would be incorrect because clearly they weren't, as they say so themselves.

Wrong thread. Not debating God here, only young Earth Creationist textbooks.

MY point is that dismissing everyone with young earth ideas as idiots won't advance science. They are a powerful group. So many people laughing and pretending they are all idiots is exactly why they have grown and now hold a good deal of power and influence in the US.

To put it another way... never underestimate your enemy. And they ARE "the enemy" when it comes to truth.

Oh, so when you said "Oh please, if you wish to counter idiocy, you cannot do it by voicing idiocy yourself. God inspired people to write the Bible, gave people the message when people were ready," you were "not debating God here?"

You sure are a trickster.

[BigBallinStalin]

MY point is that dismissing everyone with young earth ideas as idiots won't advance science. They are a powerful group. So many people laughing and pretending they are all idiots is exactly why they have grown and now hold a good deal of power and influence in the US.

To put it another way... never underestimate your enemy. And they ARE "the enemy" when it comes to truth.

I find myself in agreement with PLAYER on this. Although I will also still laugh at them as idiots, they are idiots that need to be taken very seriously, because they are currently directly impacting the education of children.

I agree when she provides empirical evidence that supports her claim that young earthers are "a powerful group," which "ha[s] grown and now hold[s] a good deal of power and influence in the US."

Having a benchmark for comparison helps too, but until then, anyone is justified in discarding her claims. Furthermore, she's repeatedly asserted these claims without providing sufficient evidence. She's on the PLAYERIAN wash, rinse, and repeat cycle.


And, "science" (i.e. intellectuals plus sane people) have already advanced beyond and have refuted young earth ideas, so dismissing young earthers as doesn't affect the advancement of science because it has already moved on without them. To claim otherwise, is it imply that young earthers have strong evidence which invalidates some set of laws/principles/claims in the realm of science. Have they? No, so the young earthturds can be ridiculed and/or dismissed.

[Woodruff]

MY point is that dismissing everyone with young earth ideas as idiots won't advance science. They are a powerful group. So many people laughing and pretending they are all idiots is exactly why they have grown and now hold a good deal of power and influence in the US.

To put it another way... never underestimate your enemy. And they ARE "the enemy" when it comes to truth.

I find myself in agreement with PLAYER on this. Although I will also still laugh at them as idiots, they are idiots that need to be taken very seriously, because they are currently directly impacting the education of children.

I agree when she provides empirical evidence that supports her claim that young earthers are "a powerful group," which "ha[s] grown and now hold[s] a good deal of power and influence in the US."

Having a benchmark for comparison helps too, but until then, anyone is justified in discarding her claims. Furthermore, she's repeatedly asserted these claims without providing sufficient evidence. She's on the PLAYERIAN wash, rinse, and repeat cycle.

The fact that a textbook such as the one we're discussing is being widely used isn't empirical evidence to you?

And, "science" (i.e. intellectuals plus sane people) have already advanced beyond and have refuted young earth ideas, so dismissing young earthers as doesn't affect the advancement of science because it has already moved on without them. To claim otherwise, is it imply that young earthers have strong evidence which invalidates some set of laws/principles/claims in the realm of science. Have they? No, so the young earthturds can be ridiculed and/or dismissed.

Which is why they are able to continue to expand their base. Dismissing the enemy (in this case, of education) is a foolish move, regardless of the perceived power or capability of that enemy.

[jonesthecurl]

Yes their theories, if you can dignify them with sych a name, are laughable.
But they are being taught to children as truth.
By teachers.
And there are plenty of adults, some of them on cc, who are convinced.

[Juan_Bottom]

It's called "slate"

[BigBallinStalin]

MY point is that dismissing everyone with young earth ideas as idiots won't advance science. They are a powerful group. So many people laughing and pretending they are all idiots is exactly why they have grown and now hold a good deal of power and influence in the US.

To put it another way... never underestimate your enemy. And they ARE "the enemy" when it comes to truth.

I find myself in agreement with PLAYER on this. Although I will also still laugh at them as idiots, they are idiots that need to be taken very seriously, because they are currently directly impacting the education of children.

I agree when she provides empirical evidence that supports her claim that young earthers are "a powerful group," which "ha[s] grown and now hold[s] a good deal of power and influence in the US."

Having a benchmark for comparison helps too, but until then, anyone is justified in discarding her claims. Furthermore, she's repeatedly asserted these claims without providing sufficient evidence. She's on the PLAYERIAN wash, rinse, and repeat cycle.

The fact that a textbook such as the one we're discussing is being widely used isn't empirical evidence to you?

"Unknown amount of people are reading a textbook" doesn't mean much. Nor would it support her other claims.

It's like looking at a book about Satanism and concluding that Satanists are "a powerful group," which "ha[s] grown and now hold[s] a good deal of power and influence in the US." That's just stretching reality--especially if there's no benchmark of comparison (which player doesn't provide because then her claims would look even more ridiculous).

And, "science" (i.e. intellectuals plus sane people) have already advanced beyond and have refuted young earth ideas, so dismissing young earthers as doesn't affect the advancement of science because it has already moved on without them. To claim otherwise, is it imply that young earthers have strong evidence which invalidates some set of laws/principles/claims in the realm of science. Have they? No, so the young earthturds can be ridiculed and/or dismissed.

Which is why they are able to continue to expand their base. Dismissing the enemy (in this case, of education) is a foolish move, regardless of the perceived power or capability of that enemy.

They'll expand (if they are, which has yet to be shown), regardless of whether or not science pays attention to them because the young earthturds don't require any confirmation from proper science, nor will they address the holes in their argument as they are shown to others.

In the case of education, sure, people should know what "science" means, and what "religion" is.

[PLAYER57832]

Oh, so when you said "Oh please, if you wish to counter idiocy, you cannot do it by voicing idiocy yourself. God inspired people to write the Bible, gave people the message when people were ready," you were "not debating God here?"

You sure are a trickster.

Stop.

The issue is that a bunch of folks are doing very serious damage to our educational system and claiming they have the right to do this because of their religious beliefs. You are not going to counter that by disputing religion. You will alienate people who are intelligent and believe in their own religion.

This is not about religion. It is about a few within the religion who are using it to destroy education in our country.

[PLAYER57832]

[quote="BigBallinStalin
They'll expand (if they are, which has yet to be shown), regardless of whether or not science pays attention to them because the young earthturds don't require any confirmation from proper science, nor will they address the holes in their argument as they are shown to others.

In the case of education, sure, people should know what "science" means, and what "religion" is.[/quote]
Look, this is not some stupid CC debate game. MY KIDS have public school teachers who deny that evolution happened. Go to ANY district in this area.. and many others, in many states and you find the same thing.

Every year, when textbooks come up for review, the dissenters show up in droves..and I don't mean idiots.
If you want to pretend this is not a real debate in the real world.. then you are doing yourself, your kids/future kids and society at large great harm. The ONLY reason you don't realize how serious this is is precisely because you are not out there listening to people of faith, not involved with public schools.

[QoH]

More creationist shit.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation.htm

[BigBallinStalin]

They'll expand (if they are, which has yet to be shown), regardless of whether or not science pays attention to them because the young earthturds don't require any confirmation from proper science, nor will they address the holes in their argument as they are shown to others.

In the case of education, sure, people should know what "science" means, and what "religion" is.

Look, this is not some stupid CC debate game. MY KIDS have public school teachers who deny that evolution happened. Go to ANY district in this area.. and many others, in many states and you find the same thing.

Every year, when textbooks come up for review, the dissenters show up in droves..and I don't mean idiots.
If you want to pretend this is not a real debate in the real world.. then you are doing yourself, your kids/future kids and society at large great harm. The ONLY reason you don't realize how serious this is is precisely because you are not out there listening to people of faith, not involved with public schools.

Then, based on your evidence, you must conclude that the young earthers are, in fact, a problem only in your locality.

That's as far as you can reasonably project your arguments about them. No more nation-wide epidemic.

So, then following, which refute your previous positions, remain true:

And, "science" (i.e. intellectuals plus sane people) have already advanced beyond and have refuted young earth ideas, so dismissing young earthers as doesn't affect the advancement of science because it has already moved on without them. To claim otherwise, is it imply that young earthers have strong evidence which invalidates some set of laws/principles/claims in the realm of science. Have they? No, so the young earthturds can be ridiculed and/or dismissed.

The following are still unresolved problems with your "Powerful Group" argument:

I agree when she provides empirical evidence that supports her claim that young earthers are "a powerful group," which "ha[s] grown and now hold[s] a good deal of power and influence in the US."

Having a benchmark for comparison helps too, but until then, anyone is justified in discarding her claims. Furthermore, she's repeatedly asserted these claims without providing sufficient evidence. She's on the PLAYERIAN wash, rinse, and repeat cycle.

Your wash, rinse, and repeat cycle only applies to your immediate area, which so far is your kids and a school. You could argue that this area is larger, but at a national level? I'll wait for actual evidence on this.

[Woodruff]

They'll expand (if they are, which has yet to be shown), regardless of whether or not science pays attention to them because the young earthturds don't require any confirmation from proper science, nor will they address the holes in their argument as they are shown to others.

In the case of education, sure, people should know what "science" means, and what "religion" is.

Look, this is not some stupid CC debate game. MY KIDS have public school teachers who deny that evolution happened. Go to ANY district in this area.. and many others, in many states and you find the same thing.

Every year, when textbooks come up for review, the dissenters show up in droves..and I don't mean idiots.
If you want to pretend this is not a real debate in the real world.. then you are doing yourself, your kids/future kids and society at large great harm. The ONLY reason you don't realize how serious this is is precisely because you are not out there listening to people of faith, not involved with public schools.

Then, based on your evidence, you must conclude that the young earthers are, in fact, a problem only in your locality.

That's as far as you can reasonably project your arguments about them. No more nation-wide epidemic.

So, then following, which refute your previous positions, remain true:

And, "science" (i.e. intellectuals plus sane people) have already advanced beyond and have refuted young earth ideas, so dismissing young earthers as doesn't affect the advancement of science because it has already moved on without them. To claim otherwise, is it imply that young earthers have strong evidence which invalidates some set of laws/principles/claims in the realm of science. Have they? No, so the young earthturds can be ridiculed and/or dismissed.

The following are still unresolved problems with your "Powerful Group" argument:

I agree when she provides empirical evidence that supports her claim that young earthers are "a powerful group," which "ha[s] grown and now hold[s] a good deal of power and influence in the US."

Having a benchmark for comparison helps too, but until then, anyone is justified in discarding her claims. Furthermore, she's repeatedly asserted these claims without providing sufficient evidence. She's on the PLAYERIAN wash, rinse, and repeat cycle.

Your wash, rinse, and repeat cycle only applies to your immediate area, which so far is your kids and a school. You could argue that this area is larger, but at a national level? I'll wait for actual evidence on this.

Honestly, you seem to be intentionally sticking your head in the sand on this one. As I mentioned before, the prevalence of the textbook under discussion and others like it shows the problem for what it is. A look at Texas' educational standards presents another point of evidence.

[PLAYER57832]

Trouble is, I did give you evidence before, many times BBS -- but you disdain reading anything much over a couple paragraphs.

"CLASSROOM CLASHES"

"Clashroom Clashes" -- a two-part series by Carrie Madren posted on the American Association for the Advancement of Science's STEM.edu blog -- "talks with middle and high school teachers across the country to find out what it's like to be on the frontlines of two often-controversial science topics -- evolution and climate change -- and how they deal with the pushback." Since NCSE provides advice, support, and resources to teachers facing challenges to evolution education -- and, starting in 2012, to teachers facing challenges to climate science education — it's not surprising to find NCSE staff represented throughout!

The first part (May 29, 2012) focuses on evolution. "Evolution debates have simmered since Darwin's time, and even now, many states and school districts have varied ideas on how evolution should be presented," Madren writes. "In addition, parents or communities with a range of views can make it difficult for science teachers to do their jobs. The controversy has made evolution a hot-button topic that's either lightly touched on or avoided altogether. Oftentimes, that means students don't get the scientific education they need to become well-rounded citizens." Making the point vivid, Jeremy Mohn, a biology teacher in Overland Park, Kansas, suggests, "Teaching biology without evolution is like teaching American history without the Civil War.""Each year, many states revisit the teaching of evolution," Madren explains, with Louisiana and Tennessee enacting antievolution legislation in 2008 and 2012, and with Texas constantly experiencing battles over the place of evolution in the state science standards.
The advent of the Next Generation Science Standards, which emphasize evolution as a central idea of the life sciences, may help to defuse controversy at the state level, NCSE's Steven Newton commented.
Individual teachers have developed ways of defusing controversy in their own classrooms: by discussing the creation/evolution continuum, for example, or by starting the biology course with a discussion of the nature of science.
The second part (June 4, 2012) focuses on climate change. Madren observes, "climate change has become the latest topic to spark classroom disagreements. Despite near-consensus in the scientific community, questions about the validity of climate change science and global warming continue to circulate in mainstream media, news, blogs, and publications," adding, "As long as individuals continue to debate climate change validity on news stations, radio shows, and online, students will bring these biases into the classroom. That means science teachers across the country must defend science to preserve the truth about climate change -- as well as the way the next generation views it. Even though climate scientists and thousands of studies back them up, teachers still face pushback."

Moreover, there are teachers who have acceded to the idea that climate change is scientifically controversial. NCSE's Mark McCaffrey explained, “Some teachers teach both sides of what is really a phony debate. In their minds it's fair and balanced but in fact it leads to confusion rather than clarity." As AAAS's chief executive officer Alan I. Leshner recently admonished the governor of Tennessee when he was presented with a bill undermining the teaching of evolution and of climate change in the state's public schools, "Implying that there are significant scientific controversies about the overall nature of these concepts when there are not will only confuse students, not enlighten them."

For the two parts of "Clashroom Clashes" on AAAS's STEM.edu blog, visit:
http://membercentral.aaas.org/blogs/ste ... -evolution
http://membercentral.aaas.org/blogs/ste ... ate-change

CRINGING IN KANSAS

The renewed complaints of a few members of the Kansas state board of education about evolution is making Kansans cringe, according to the editorial board of the Lawrence Journal-World (June 15, 2012). As NCSE previously reported, when the board heard a presentation about the current status of the Next Generation Science Standards on June 12, 2012, Ken Willard, a member of the board, distributed a letter arguing that the draft standards " ignore evidence against evolution, don't respect religious diversity, and promote secular humanism."

In its editorial, the Journal-World replied, "Kansans have heard this argument before and largely rejected it. The job of school science classes is to use the best available scientific evidence to teach about a variety of topics, including evolution. If matters of faith somehow conflict with the scientific evidence, that is a topic for religious instruction most appropriately conducted in private homes or churches. ... Kansans certainly respect a wide variety of religious beliefs in the state, but the argument over teaching evolution as part of public school science classes has proved to be needlessly divisive and embarrassing."

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2012/jun/1 ... n-returns/


From South Korea:

CREATIONIST SUCCESS IN SOUTH KOREA?

A creationist campaign to remove references to evolution from high school biology textbooks in South Korea succeeded in May 2012, according to a report in Nature (June 5, 2012), when "the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology revealed that many of the publishers would produce revised editions that exclude examples of the evolution of the horse or of avian ancestor Archaeopteryx." Also in the sights of the creationist campaign are references to the evolution of humans and the adaptations of the beak of the finch. All four are favorite targets of creationists, including the "intelligent design" movement.
South Korean biologists are complaining that they were not consulted about the revisions; Dayk Jang, an evolutionary scientist at Seoul National University, told Nature, "The ministry just sent the petition out to the publishing companies and let them judge."

The campaign was led by the Committee to Revise Evolution In Textbooks (which Nature calls "the Society for Textbook Revise"), an independent offshoot of the Korea Association for Creation Research. Support for creationism in South Korea is high: in The Creationists (Harvard University Press, 2006), Ronald L. Numbers described the country as "the creationist powerhouse" in Asia. And acceptance of evolution is comparatively low: 64% of South Koreans agreed with "human beings are developed from earlier species of animals" in 2002, as compared to 44% of respondents in the United States in 2004, 70% of respondents in China in 2001, and 78% of respondents in Japan in 2001.

Dayk Jang faulted the South Korean scientific community for its inaction and is now organizing a group of experts to counter the creationist campaign. "When something like this comes to fruition, the scientific community can be caught flat-footed," NCSE's Josh Rosenau told the New York Daily News (June 6, 2012). "Scientists are not by their nature political." South Korea is an up-and-coming scientific powerhouse, Rosenau said, adding that it's crucial to continue to teach evolution in schools if the county wants to compete on the international stage. "Evolution is the core of modern biological science," he said.

This is about a success for evolution, but note... my issue is that this is even taking up the time of the legislators. This "debate" keeps coming up over and over and over. We are winning, so far, but barely... and not always. But that we even have to keep fighting means a loss of resources AND it means that teachers are often just ignoring the issue as "too controversial".

OKLAHOMA OKAY AT LAST

When the Oklahoma legislature adjourned sine die on May 25, 2012, no fewer than three legislative attempts to attack the teaching of evolution and of climate change were finally laid to rest. All three would have encouraged teachers in the public schools of the Sooner State to present the "scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses"
of "controversial" topics such as "biological evolution" and "global warming."

This type of stuff is happening in EVERY state. I only post a few, because this is CC and posting them all would take several pages.

[BigBallinStalin]

They'll expand (if they are, which has yet to be shown), regardless of whether or not science pays attention to them because the young earthturds don't require any confirmation from proper science, nor will they address the holes in their argument as they are shown to others.

In the case of education, sure, people should know what "science" means, and what "religion" is.

Look, this is not some stupid CC debate game. MY KIDS have public school teachers who deny that evolution happened. Go to ANY district in this area.. and many others, in many states and you find the same thing.

Every year, when textbooks come up for review, the dissenters show up in droves..and I don't mean idiots.
If you want to pretend this is not a real debate in the real world.. then you are doing yourself, your kids/future kids and society at large great harm. The ONLY reason you don't realize how serious this is is precisely because you are not out there listening to people of faith, not involved with public schools.

Then, based on your evidence, you must conclude that the young earthers are, in fact, a problem only in your locality.

That's as far as you can reasonably project your arguments about them. No more nation-wide epidemic.

So, then following, which refute your previous positions, remain true:

And, "science" (i.e. intellectuals plus sane people) have already advanced beyond and have refuted young earth ideas, so dismissing young earthers as doesn't affect the advancement of science because it has already moved on without them. To claim otherwise, is it imply that young earthers have strong evidence which invalidates some set of laws/principles/claims in the realm of science. Have they? No, so the young earthturds can be ridiculed and/or dismissed.

The following are still unresolved problems with your "Powerful Group" argument:

I agree when she provides empirical evidence that supports her claim that young earthers are "a powerful group," which "ha[s] grown and now hold[s] a good deal of power and influence in the US."

Having a benchmark for comparison helps too, but until then, anyone is justified in discarding her claims. Furthermore, she's repeatedly asserted these claims without providing sufficient evidence. She's on the PLAYERIAN wash, rinse, and repeat cycle.

Your wash, rinse, and repeat cycle only applies to your immediate area, which so far is your kids and a school. You could argue that this area is larger, but at a national level? I'll wait for actual evidence on this.

Honestly, you seem to be intentionally sticking your head in the sand on this one. As I mentioned before, the prevalence of the textbook under discussion and others like it shows the problem for what it is. A look at Texas' educational standards presents another point of evidence.

I'm just asking for evidence that supports all her claims, and at least provide some benchmark of comparison--in order to understand How much influence this group actually has, and how much that matters relative to other problems.

All you've provided is "Texas' educational standards," which even if true for some unknown amount of Texan schools, still wouldn't support her huge claims.

It seems that you're unwilling to admit that you're agreeing to your Huge Leaps of Faith (with very little and perhaps no evidence provided at that time) was actually not a good idea.