Barack Obama to 99% of Americans: "I'm working for you"

[BigBallinStalin]

Wow, ITT thread Upton Sinclair is a bad guy now? There's arguing for free markets and there's arguing for fictional markets. Seems like if you're going for the kind of deregulated markets of days gone by, you have to deal with the critics of those "free markets".

[Juan_Bottom]

not to mention the Jungle was written over a hundred years ago.

Holy f*ck.

"the one who does not remember history is bound to live through it again"

Wow, ITT thread Upton Sinclair is a bad guy now? There's arguing for free markets and there's arguing for fictional markets. Seems like if you're going for the kind of deregulated markets of days gone by, you have to deal with the critics of those "free markets".

I know right? What the f*ck is happening to us?

[Maugena]

And Romney would do better? Not even close! Particularly not with his selected VP.

It's not the government's job to "work for you". The government's job is to get out of the way so people can work for themselves.

Except when it comes to the big corporations and the wealthy, of course

Nope, its government's job to protect the weak against oppression by the powerful. Being a bully is not a right.

No, it's not the government's job to protect the weak against the powerful. It's the government's job to protect the innocent from those who violate their rights. A not so subtle yet very important distinction. You can have a powerful person and a weak person, but as long as no rights are being violated, the government has no part in their interactions.

What's your stance on minimum wage?
How about child labor?

[Maugena]

And Romney would do better? Not even close! Particularly not with his selected VP.

It's not the government's job to "work for you". The government's job is to get out of the way so people can work for themselves.

Ridiculous. How do you enjoy eating food that's free of parasites? How about those roads? Who let you out of daycare?

The government doesn't keep parasites out of food: the businesses that make or sell the food keep those out. If they don't, people stop buying that food. The government makes roads, but the taxpayers pay for those roads. And I've been out of daycare since I was 4, so probably my mother.

Good sir, please let me direct you towards this good read: The Jungle

[Campin_Killer]

There is nothing funny about the Tea Party or their death squads. If you're laughing about Obama, well, that's just foolish.

Please tell me you're joking about the bolded part...

If you're serious then...wow

[Night Strike]

What's your stance on minimum wage?
How about child labor?

The minimum wage should probably be abolished. Child labor laws are fine where they are, but they should not be expanded to outlaw kids working on family farms as the Department of Labor is currently working to enact (unless they already did and I missed it).

Good sir, please let me direct you towards this good read: The Jungle

If all the regulations enacted after that book were repealed, do you really think the workplace and food system would automatically revert back to it? There is too much openness and accountability to the consumer in today's society for that to happen.

[Maugena]

What's your stance on minimum wage?
How about child labor?

The minimum wage should probably be abolished.

I'm aware that there's this idea of decreasing costs of production with this, therefore reducing the price of goods.
Despite this supposed benefit that will single-handedly make a good living affordable for everyone, you'll find that anyone that doesn't have an education will be subject to wage slavery.
See:
Your Children
Immigrants
And, no, reduced prices of goods will still be expensive for those people and, more likely than not, more expensive for them than what they were prior to this change.

Good sir, please let me direct you towards this good read: The Jungle

If all the regulations enacted after that book were repealed, do you really think the workplace and food system would automatically revert back to it? There is too much openness and accountability to the consumer in today's society for that to happen.

If by automatically you mean immediately, no.
Night Strike, are you familiar with the human condition?
By this, I am referring to the, "what can I get away with" syndrome. I don't know the appropriate term for it, but it isn't necessarily referring to laziness.
Eventually things will chip away to the point of The Jungle or worse. That is my guarantee.

[Sydney0103]

There is nothing funny about the Tea Party or their death squads. If you're laughing about Obama, well, that's just foolish.

I personally would laugh at Obama, but it's just "Way Too Sad" to laugh at..

[BigBallinStalin]

Hey, Maugena. You know that The Jungle!!! is a work of fiction, right?

[BigBallinStalin]

Haha, just realized something funny.

It's amusing to watch people criticize others for their beliefs based on some special holy book, while those very criticizers base their beliefs on works of fiction.

[jay_a2j]

How many lies did you pick out?

[Maugena]

Hey, Maugena. You know that The Jungle!!! is a work of fiction, right?

And?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle
The story may be fictional, but it brought to light potential hazards. (Assuming any of it was true.)
Bottom line, it caused change that is largely necessary for workers and consumers alike.

The President was leery of aligning himself with Sinclair's politics and conclusions in The Jungle, so he sent Labor Commissioner Charles P. Neill and social worker James Bronson Reynolds, men whose honesty and reliability he trusted, to Chicago to make surprise visits to meat packing facilities. Despite betrayal of the secret to the meat packers, who worked three shifts a day for three weeks to clean the factories prior to the inspection, Neill and Reynolds were still revolted by the conditions at the factories and at the lack of concern by plant managers.

I highly recommend reading the history of the FDA as well to anyone that's curious.

Though, I will admit, BBS, despite it being obvious that I was essentially claiming it to be fact, I did not remember that The Jungle was a work of fiction. That is a fact I will not soon forget.

Sidenote: If there's anything to be proud of the United States for, the FDA most definitely is and everything that's related to it.

[Juan_Bottom]

Is that what BBS is whining about in his hidden posts? The Jungle's historical importance wasn't in that it was a true story, because it obviously wasn't. It's importance came in how it effected a cultural change and a revolution in the way our foodstuffs were handled. And in the change in the way we tolerated son-of-a-b*tch employment conditions. It's a fake story, but it was based off of truth. When you think of the Jungle, also think of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Don't focus on one facet of history without remembering the context. BBS either didn't know or didn't care about the context.

[Maugena]

Is that what BBS is whining about in his hidden posts? The Jungle's historical importance wasn't in that it was a true story, because it obviously wasn't. It's importance came in how it effected a cultural change and a revolution in the way our foodstuffs were handled. And in the change in the way we tolerated son-of-a-b*tch employment conditions. It's a fake story, but it was based off of truth. When you think of the Jungle, also think of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Don't focus on one facet of history without remembering the context. BBS either didn't know or didn't care about the context.

Well, yes, but the fact that it is fiction isn't a negligible point.
I'm betting he cares, but he just wanted to point it out because we were throwing out assumptions.

[Juan_Bottom]

To me, the fact that he was already aware of the book makes it safe to assume that he knew what made the book important. I don't know why he would know that the book was a fictional story and not know about the revolution it also helped to create. But I could be wrong, I suppose. >=()

[Juan_Bottom]

The minimum wage should probably be abolished.

[BigBallinStalin]

The minimum wage should probably be abolished.

Don't you have some more Bible-believers to hate on while thumping your fiction-based beliefs?

[BigBallinStalin]

Hey, Maugena. You know that The Jungle!!! is a work of fiction, right?

And?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle
The story may be fictional, but it brought to light potential hazards. (Assuming any of it was true.)
Bottom line, it caused change that is largely necessary for workers and consumers alike.

The President was leery of aligning himself with Sinclair's politics and conclusions in The Jungle, so he sent Labor Commissioner Charles P. Neill and social worker James Bronson Reynolds, men whose honesty and reliability he trusted, to Chicago to make surprise visits to meat packing facilities. Despite betrayal of the secret to the meat packers, who worked three shifts a day for three weeks to clean the factories prior to the inspection, Neill and Reynolds were still revolted by the conditions at the factories and at the lack of concern by plant managers.

I highly recommend reading the history of the FDA as well to anyone that's curious.

Though, I will admit, BBS, despite it being obvious that I was essentially claiming it to be fact, I did not remember that The Jungle was a work of fiction. That is a fact I will not soon forget.

That's good to hear. And I don't doubt the book's ability to have raised awareness about working conditions in a certain number of plants in one city. It certainly was politically profitable to attend to the matter.

Sidenote: If there's anything to be proud of the United States for, the FDA most definitely is and everything that's related to it.

I wouldn't go around praising the government's monopoly on the regulation of food and agriculture.


http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... ck/251442/

http://ecowatch.org/2012/lawsuit-seeks-mercury/

http://www.cspinet.org/new/200606271.html

The Amazing Revolving Door -
Monsanto, FDA & EPA
http://rense.com/general33/fd.htm

Obama urged to cut FDA ties with Monsanto
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/ ... ks-FDA.asp

Reputation and Power: Organizational Image and Pharmaceutical Regulation at the FDA ( (perhaps the best source to learn more)
http://www.amazon.com/Reputation-Power- ... ywords=FDA

Fight for Your Health: Exposing the FDA's Betrayal of America
http://www.amazon.com/Fight-Your-Health ... ywords=FDA

Inside the FDA: The Business and Politics Behind the Drugs We Take and the Food We Eat
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-FDA-Busine ... ywords=FDA

Protecting America's Health: The FDA, Business, and One Hundred Years of Regulation
http://www.amazon.com/Protecting-Americ ... ewpoints=1

The Truth About the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do About It
http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Drug-Companies-Deceive/dp/0375760946/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345369292&sr=1-12&keywords=FDA



Etc.


All I'm saying is know what you're praising.



*That last one seems to be the most useful.

[puppydog85]

It's a fake story, but it was based off of truth. When you think of the Jungle, also think of Uncle Tom's Cabin

Don't get me started on Uncle Tom' Cabin. Pure propaganda. They were all true stories that she based her incidents on, but she forgot to mention that she got them all from the police blotter. In other words, cases that were being prosecuted as crimes.

[Night Strike]

The minimum wage should probably be abolished.

Your point? The jobs that pay minimum wage were never designed to be lived off of. They are designed to be part time jobs for people looking for extra money or for high school and college students to earn some cash while attending classes. Raising the minimum wage only causes more unemployment (especially among the young), higher prices, or both. Not to mention that you are punishing people who have worked with a company for any length of time (assuming their wages aren't automatically adjusted upward when minimum wage goes up).

[GBU56]

That's why I'm with Night Strike on this issue!

Eliminate minimum wage and restore slavery. This will make us all employable!



Let the top 1% provide us all with food and lodging. What else do we need? Let's not get selfish and demand luxuries like healthcare, wages, clean water, clean air and other anti-capitalist ideas!

Let's destroy all remnants of Socialism now!

[Night Strike]

For some reason, I never actually said those things yet they're attributed to me. Typical liberal argument.

[PLAYER57832]

For some reason, I never actually said those things yet they're attributed to me. Typical liberal argument.

The trouble is, if we do as you HAVE argued, then this will be the effective result.

I have no idea why you think catering to those at the top, those who happened to have lucked out and gamed the system will somehow benefit everyone and result in decent livings for all, or even all who work to earn it. It has NEVER happened that way in history. The opposite is what actually happens

The more the powerful are supported, the more they take for themselves and the more they justify that taking. The result is not a benefit to the masses, but loss. Just look at the Republican rhetoric. The most wealthy in this country have seen their wealth increased phenomenally. The rest of us have mostly gone down. Yet, listen to them and the cry is "just give the wealthy more...and we will all benefit". Well, it hasn't worked so far!

I have said this before, but you keep dismissing it, (even though it is reality), but every great soceity in history ---China, Egypt, India, Rome, Greece, Britain, (and many more too many to name) ALL followed the same pattern.

Prior to their destruction, you saw an increase in the disparity of wealth between the average people and the wealthy. The actual cause of the demises varied. Usually it was a combination of weather/natural disaster events, (drought, floods, etc damaging crops, volcanoes, etc.) and then other countries coming in for the "kill". However, the point is that in most cases, these countries had weathered disasters prior and resisted. Its because the power was concentrated at the top, the top became bloated and concerned only with it's own benefit that the means to resist the disasters were taken away.

This is EXACTLY what we see today. Health care is for only those who can "afford it". Food and shelter, too... only for those who are lucky enough to get great jobs or who will work 80+ hours a week (seriously! -- that is what it takes to work in many cities today!.. and I do NOT mean at federal base wages, I meanb 2 jobs making $10.00 an hour and more).

Rich people don' t live in isolation. It is not us that depend on the wealthy, it is the wealthy that depend on a healthy and well fed populace. Their money will buy them mansions that can be self-sustained and protected for a time, can allow them to migrate to more favorable places.... but only for a time. Ultimately, either the money really DOES get sent down to pay for infrastructure and support of the real people who actually work hard at various jobs or society fails.

It would be nice if that "just happened" naturally. It can, for a short time, when there is a surplus of jobs and a lack of labor. We had that idyll time for a few decades, when more industry meant more jobs. BUT.. now we go back to times much like in the past, just more industrialized. Average people and the poor need support.. and that IS very much the purvue of the government.

Why do you think the peasant cried to the princess "we have no bread!" Today's "give the wealthy their tax breaks"... the deficit is too high to pay for all these "entitlements" like food, clothing and shelter... sounds a bit too much like "let them eat cake"

And note... while whether the story is real or not is sort of irrelevant, the point was that the leadership was so removed from the populace that she truly did not understand that a peasant would have been happy eating cake, but it cost far more than bread. Today, the misunderstanding is about how people work, get education, and so forth.

YOu have said over and over that people who are at the top are "more skilled" and therefore "deserve" to be where they are. I don't deny that most people at the top have talents, are able to do their jobs. HOWEVER, the real "skill" most of htem possess often has less to do with actual job performance and more to do with this "ability to get along"... translate that into "your dads were friends.. so you have an advantage", "you went to the same school, club.... so you have an advantage", even "you like the same hobbies.. so you have an advantage". The real truth is that many jobs today have literally HUNDREDS of very qualified applicants (not to mention the just unqualified.. they go in the trash!). In that many, its very hard to claim that the person who gets the job is "the best". MOST of those 200 could do that job perfectly well. When you have to sort through that many, then simply not wanting to pronounce someone's name can, quite literally be reason enough to toss an application... someone who lives far away, who has kids.. someone who has a slightly sloppy application... etc, etc, etc....and that is all BEFORE the interview. Yes, some of those "disqualifiecations" are flat out illegal, but how, exactly do you prove that? Youc an get overlooked just because your application was stuck to antother in the stack!

THAT is the reality for most job applicants today.

[jay_a2j]

OMG abolishing minimum wadge will not cause slavery. If Burger King is hiring at $3.00 /hr. guess what? No one will apply for the job and force BK to increase it's starting wage. With minimum wage, the playing field is leveled because what company is going to pay someone $10/hr when EVERYONE else is paying minimum wage? There is less competition to hire people when the wages are all the same. Not to mention the other problems with it as already mentioned.

[pimpdave]

OMG abolishing minimum wadge will not cause slavery. If Burger King is hiring at $3.00 /hr. guess what? No one will apply for the job and force BK to increase it's starting wage.

Wishful thinking. It's already possible to find illegal aliens who will work for less than minimum wage, mostly hired by Republicans.

But this is what you guys love to dwell on. This wishful thinking. That people won't buy food if it's contaminated or full of parasites, and companies would never do that anyway. Wrong. Many companies just want to wring out as much profit as possible. You guys even admit that when you're bitching about taxes. Well, if putting sawdust in sausages increases the profit margin of a meat packing company and they can get away with it, they absolutely will. Same goes for almost every other company.

Regulation is the only way to guarantee that the most participants possible follow the rules. There will always be bad actors, but regulation reduces that to the minimum. Your wishful thinking is adolescent at best, and evil intending to deceive the naive at worst.