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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:08 pm

patrickaa317 wrote:Who determines what is fair?

As a people, we've already decided. But we've also decided to be apathetic about it. Intrinsic Morality, if that's what you mean, is derived from evolution. When humans lived in small bands that traveled to look for food, or stayed in one spot to harvest it. We needed cooperation to ensure that the group would survive. Most animals are only concerned with their own survival. But not humans.

patrickaa317 wrote:And should the engineer that design what the workers make be allowed to make more than the guy who follows directions on how to make something?

Sometimes, depends. Social Democracies aren't about keeping people who work hard from earning greater success. They're about making sure that everyone has equal opportunities for success. So if you work hard you can earn a great deal more income than someone who doesn't, but you'll never make 6000% more than your own work force. That shows that you are taking advantage of their time & labor.

patrickaa317 wrote:Would it be necessary to have everyone in the world be on in this?

Nope. Only if you want to create a global government. As a people we'll prolly come to that eventually, but not today.

Night Strike wrote:Social Justice IS socialism.

Yeah it is. I've been talking about Socialism this entire time.
The European Socialist country's are the happiest ones in the entire world.

Night Strike wrote:It's not the government's job to distribute money as it sees fit. It's up to the private sector to determine what wages and prices will be.

Not since the labor revolution, son.

patrickaa317 wrote:So this brings up a valid question for the constitutional scholar (Woodruff). Was the initial intention of the founders (that wrote the constitution), for this republic to be a Social Democracy?

Social Democracies didn't exist at that time. Adam's wrote that all of history's greatest minds agreed that a Republic was the best form of government. But that's no longer the case.
See, they had never even heard of Socialism, Fascism, Collectivism, or Communism before, because they didn't exist yet. As I said before, they intended that people could sell themselves into slavery. . . that was freedom to them.
They were attempting to make a new form of government, and Europe was watching them skeptically to see if it could even work. At that time it was strongly believed that a government had to have a king at it's head. This is what America had to compare itself to. During the American Civil War, many European leaders said as much. Such sentiments ran particularly high in the British Empire. "The American Experiment has proved flawed". . . and this belief that a government must have a king is exactly what lead to Hitler's ease of ability to seize control of Germany. They had a Republic, and they traded it for a Dictatorship. They loved their Kaisers. I bring the Weimer Republic up for an important reason. They had an idea in their head that "this is what our government was meant to be, and only this can be successful." Like many American's today, they had a very closed view of government and how it was meant to be.
But you also need to consider another point: The men who formed the Government of the United states in 1775 & onward were our elite's. Not only were they our intellectual elites, but they were also the guys who had monopolies and dominated industry. These were the guys who had the most to gain by severing ties with England.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:30 pm

Tzor accidentally brings up a good point.
Every progressive project/program that has ever been enacted - ever - and I'm talking about stuff you can't imagine living without - was enacted by liberals against the protests of Conservatives. They cry "Constitution" when it's something they are against - like bringing electricity to poor rural farmers - but they ignore the Constitution when it's something they hate - like Abortion.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Night Strike on Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:53 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:Tzor accidentally brings up a good point.
Every progressive project/program that has ever been enacted - ever - and I'm talking about stuff you can't imagine living without - was enacted by liberals against the protests of Conservatives. They cry "Constitution" when it's something they are against - like bringing electricity to poor rural farmers - but they ignore the Constitution when it's something they hate - like Abortion.


How is being against abortion ignoring the Constitution? Because a Supreme Court unilaterally wrote into the Constitution a new right to kill unborn children?

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Night Strike wrote:It's not the government's job to distribute money as it sees fit. It's up to the private sector to determine what wages and prices will be.

Not since the labor revolution, son.


So organized labor isn't part of the free market system? The problem is when the government forces participation in a union or when unions take over the governmental workforce.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:45 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Night Strike wrote:It's not the government's job to distribute money as it sees fit. It's up to the private sector to determine what wages and prices will be.


Not since the labor revolution, son.


Why do you think folks like Night Strike and his handlers want to eliminate unions?
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:01 pm

Is this where the conservatives in here start saying "But that's what we need in a leader"?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yR_Mn4Skt4
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby tzor on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:44 am

Woodruff wrote:Yeah, because you're not biased at ALL...


I'm probably a lot less biased on it that you might think.

I wouldn't recommend asking me for insight into the progressive moment; extreemely biased there.

Woodruff wrote:So what was the Founders intention toward the Internet?


Well that depends. The core constitution did enumerate postal roads as a primary function of the Federal Goverment because communication was vitally important. Since email has replaced mail for the most part, the building of internet infrastructure might be a reasonable stretch of an argument.

The writers of the first amendment, especially after the experience of the pre war situations with the stamp act, thought free speech in general was vital.

(Mind you John Adams got so pissed with the press he got the Alien and Sedition laws passed, later repealed by Jefferson.)
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby tzor on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:54 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:Tzor accidentally brings up a good point.
Every progressive project/program that has ever been enacted - ever - and I'm talking about stuff you can't imagine living without - was enacted by liberals against the protests of Conservatives. They cry "Constitution" when it's something they are against - like bringing electricity to poor rural farmers - but they ignore the Constitution when it's something they hate - like Abortion.


I think you have it backwards. Every progresive project/program has been blatantly unconstitutional. The first generation of Progressives were entirely hostile to the document. People like Teddy Rosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson had nothing but distain for it. And Roe vs Wade is constitutional crap. It's sort of ironic that "privacy" consists in and apparently only in the matter of abortion. All other medical procedures can and will be regulated by others under Obamacare.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:41 pm

tzor wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Tzor accidentally brings up a good point.
Every progressive project/program that has ever been enacted - ever - and I'm talking about stuff you can't imagine living without - was enacted by liberals against the protests of Conservatives. They cry "Constitution" when it's something they are against - like bringing electricity to poor rural farmers - but they ignore the Constitution when it's something they hate - like Abortion.


I think you have it backwards. Every progresive project/program has been blatantly unconstitutional. The first generation of Progressives were entirely hostile to the document. People like Teddy Rosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson had nothing but distain for it. And Roe vs Wade is constitutional crap. It's sort of ironic that "privacy" consists in and apparently only in the matter of abortion. All other medical procedures can and will be regulated by others under Obamacare.


Emancipation?
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Nobunaga on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:48 pm

Symmetry wrote:
tzor wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Tzor accidentally brings up a good point.
Every progressive project/program that has ever been enacted - ever - and I'm talking about stuff you can't imagine living without - was enacted by liberals against the protests of Conservatives. They cry "Constitution" when it's something they are against - like bringing electricity to poor rural farmers - but they ignore the Constitution when it's something they hate - like Abortion.


I think you have it backwards. Every progresive project/program has been blatantly unconstitutional. The first generation of Progressives were entirely hostile to the document. People like Teddy Rosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson had nothing but distain for it. And Roe vs Wade is constitutional crap. It's sort of ironic that "privacy" consists in and apparently only in the matter of abortion. All other medical procedures can and will be regulated by others under Obamacare.


Emancipation?


... Emancipation (of slaves in the US) was more of a movement, probably the most noble of movements begun and carried out by great people and supported by the Republican Party. Glad you mentioned that one, Symm.

...
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:53 pm

Nobunaga wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
tzor wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Tzor accidentally brings up a good point.
Every progressive project/program that has ever been enacted - ever - and I'm talking about stuff you can't imagine living without - was enacted by liberals against the protests of Conservatives. They cry "Constitution" when it's something they are against - like bringing electricity to poor rural farmers - but they ignore the Constitution when it's something they hate - like Abortion.


I think you have it backwards. Every progresive project/program has been blatantly unconstitutional. The first generation of Progressives were entirely hostile to the document. People like Teddy Rosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson had nothing but distain for it. And Roe vs Wade is constitutional crap. It's sort of ironic that "privacy" consists in and apparently only in the matter of abortion. All other medical procedures can and will be regulated by others under Obamacare.


Emancipation?


... Emancipation (of slaves in the US) was more of a movement, probably the most noble of movements begun and carried out by great people and supported by the Republican Party. Glad you mentioned that one, Symm.

...


... You're such a cute gimmick poster with this stuff. As if the Repubs of then were the repubs of now. I see it threw you off your balance a little though.

... Would you care to enlighten us more about how emancipation wasn't progress? Or progressive? Or a project?

... But some sort of conservative movement?
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Nobunaga on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:58 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
tzor wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Tzor accidentally brings up a good point.
Every progressive project/program that has ever been enacted - ever - and I'm talking about stuff you can't imagine living without - was enacted by liberals against the protests of Conservatives. They cry "Constitution" when it's something they are against - like bringing electricity to poor rural farmers - but they ignore the Constitution when it's something they hate - like Abortion.


I think you have it backwards. Every progresive project/program has been blatantly unconstitutional. The first generation of Progressives were entirely hostile to the document. People like Teddy Rosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson had nothing but distain for it. And Roe vs Wade is constitutional crap. It's sort of ironic that "privacy" consists in and apparently only in the matter of abortion. All other medical procedures can and will be regulated by others under Obamacare.


Emancipation?


... Emancipation (of slaves in the US) was more of a movement, probably the most noble of movements begun and carried out by great people and supported by the Republican Party. Glad you mentioned that one, Symm.

...


... You're such a cute gimmick poster with this stuff. As if the Repubs of then were the repubs of now. I see it threw you off your balance a little though.

... Would you care to enlighten us more about how emancipation wasn't progress? Or progressive? Or a project?

... But some sort of conservative movement?


... Did you not understand my words? Progressive (liberal/statist) projects are what are under discussion. It was certainly progress, but completely divorced from what we now call "progressives" (statits). The emancipation of slaves is no way statist. You think it was so? I have to disagree.

... Gimmick poster? Define that for me. What was my gimmick?

...
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:01 pm

Nobunaga wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
tzor wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Tzor accidentally brings up a good point.
Every progressive project/program that has ever been enacted - ever - and I'm talking about stuff you can't imagine living without - was enacted by liberals against the protests of Conservatives. They cry "Constitution" when it's something they are against - like bringing electricity to poor rural farmers - but they ignore the Constitution when it's something they hate - like Abortion.


I think you have it backwards. Every progresive project/program has been blatantly unconstitutional. The first generation of Progressives were entirely hostile to the document. People like Teddy Rosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson had nothing but distain for it. And Roe vs Wade is constitutional crap. It's sort of ironic that "privacy" consists in and apparently only in the matter of abortion. All other medical procedures can and will be regulated by others under Obamacare.


Emancipation?


... Emancipation (of slaves in the US) was more of a movement, probably the most noble of movements begun and carried out by great people and supported by the Republican Party. Glad you mentioned that one, Symm.

...


... You're such a cute gimmick poster with this stuff. As if the Repubs of then were the repubs of now. I see it threw you off your balance a little though.

... Would you care to enlighten us more about how emancipation wasn't progress? Or progressive? Or a project?

... But some sort of conservative movement?


... Did you not understand my words? Progressive (liberal/statist) projects are what are under discussion. It was certainly progress, but completely divorced from what we now call "progressives" (statits). The emancipation of slaves is no way statist. You think it was so? I have to disagree.

... Gimmick poster? Define that for me. What was my gimmick?

...


Progressives are statists?

Black is white! On is off!
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Nobunaga on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:06 pm

Progressives are statists?

Black is white! On is off!


... Don't feign ignorance. Who always looks to the state to solve their problems?

... Hint... starts with a "P" ... ends in "rogressives"

...
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:11 pm

Nobunaga wrote:... Did you not understand my words? Progressive (liberal/statist) projects are what are under discussion. It was certainly progress, but completely divorced from what we now call "progressives" (statits). The emancipation of slaves is no way statist. You think it was so? I have to disagree.


Are you actually saying that emancipation wasn't "solved by the state"?
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:16 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Did you not understand my words? Progressive (liberal/statist) projects are what are under discussion. It was certainly progress, but completely divorced from what we now call "progressives" (statits). The emancipation of slaves is no way statist. You think it was so? I have to disagree.


Are you actually saying that emancipation wasn't "solved by the state"?


Yeah, I'm not sure Nobunaga can get around that one. Emancipation was solved directly by federal intervention in the south. It was a statist solution to the problem of slavery and was the beginning of the end of the United States (plural).
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:51 pm

Richard Mourdock On Abortion: Pregnancy From Rape Is 'Something God Intended' (UPDATE)



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"The only exception I have to have an abortion is in the case of the life of the mother," said Mourdock, the Tea Party-backed state treasurer. "I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:05 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Richard Mourdock On Abortion: Pregnancy From Rape Is 'Something God Intended' (UPDATE)

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"The only exception I have to have an abortion is in the case of the life of the mother," said Mourdock, the Tea Party-backed state treasurer. "I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."


In fairness, as bad as that quote appears, I think it's being intentionally mischaracterized. It seems to me that he's saying the life coming into being was God's intention, not the rape.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Nobunaga on Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:03 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Did you not understand my words? Progressive (liberal/statist) projects are what are under discussion. It was certainly progress, but completely divorced from what we now call "progressives" (statits). The emancipation of slaves is no way statist. You think it was so? I have to disagree.


Are you actually saying that emancipation wasn't "solved by the state"?


Yeah, I'm not sure Nobunaga can get around that one. Emancipation was solved directly by federal intervention in the south. It was a statist solution to the problem of slavery and was the beginning of the end of the United States (plural).


... Nope, not even going to attempt an argument...

... BOWS HEAD IN SHAME .... WANDERS TO A CORNER AND MOPES... #-o

... Funny how statism went from freeing people, to binding them. Perhaps that's Republican statism vs. Democrat statism (aka "progress").

...
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:07 am

Nobunaga wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Did you not understand my words? Progressive (liberal/statist) projects are what are under discussion. It was certainly progress, but completely divorced from what we now call "progressives" (statits). The emancipation of slaves is no way statist. You think it was so? I have to disagree.


Are you actually saying that emancipation wasn't "solved by the state"?


Yeah, I'm not sure Nobunaga can get around that one. Emancipation was solved directly by federal intervention in the south. It was a statist solution to the problem of slavery and was the beginning of the end of the United States (plural).


... Nope, not even going to attempt an argument...

... BOWS HEAD IN SHAME .... WANDERS TO A CORNER AND MOPES... #-o

... Funny how statism went from freeing people, to binding them. Perhaps that's Republican statism vs. Democrat statism (aka "progress").

...


If it makes you feel any better, unlike some (e.g. BBS), I'm a Libertarian who believes the state can do good things in some instances. The enforcement of anti-slavery laws and equal protection laws are good examples. However, I also believe that the state can do some bad things and should be curbed as much as possible because the bad things tend to outnumber the good things.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:58 pm

http://www.dayswithoutagoprapemention.com/

This is gold. A website that tracks Republican's comments about rape.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Ray Rider on Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:53 am

Woodruff wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Richard Mourdock On Abortion: Pregnancy From Rape Is 'Something God Intended' (UPDATE)

Image

"The only exception I have to have an abortion is in the case of the life of the mother," said Mourdock, the Tea Party-backed state treasurer. "I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."


In fairness, as bad as that quote appears, I think it's being intentionally mischaracterized. It seems to me that he's saying the life coming into being was God's intention, not the rape.

kudos to Woodruff for pointing out the mischaracterization of that fellow. It's clear that he's saying that the life is God's will, unless you have an extreme bias in which case you'll twist anything the "enemy" says to portray it in the absolute worst possible light.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby chang50 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:08 am

Ray Rider wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Richard Mourdock On Abortion: Pregnancy From Rape Is 'Something God Intended' (UPDATE)

Image

"The only exception I have to have an abortion is in the case of the life of the mother," said Mourdock, the Tea Party-backed state treasurer. "I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God. I think that even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."


In fairness, as bad as that quote appears, I think it's being intentionally mischaracterized. It seems to me that he's saying the life coming into being was God's intention, not the rape.

kudos to Woodruff for pointing out the mischaracterization of that fellow. It's clear that he's saying that the life is God's will, unless you have an extreme bias in which case you'll twist anything the "enemy" says to portray it in the absolute worst possible light.


Surely if we have an omnipotent God he intends for everything that actually happens to happen even if we accept freewill.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Ray Rider on Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:10 am

chang50 wrote:Surely if we have an omnipotent God he intends for everything that actually happens to happen even if we accept freewill.

Intends? Or allows based on free will? Eg. I could allow a worker at my store to treat a customer terribly, but that doesn't therefore mean that I intend for him to do so. There's been entire books written about this of topic free will vs. determinism.
Last edited by Ray Rider on Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby chang50 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:18 am

Ray Rider wrote:
chang50 wrote:Surely if we have an omnipotent God he intends for everything that actually happens to happen even if we accept freewill.

Intends? Or allows based on free will? Eg. I could allow a worker at my store to treat a customer terribly, but that doesn't therefore mean that I intend for him to do so.


But unlike you an omniscient God knows in advance how we will use the freewill he has allowed us.As I see it there are inherent contradictions in the concept of the omnimax God accepted by Christian theists,and much has been written about this.
By omnimax I mean omnipresent,omniscient,omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Ray Rider on Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:34 am

chang50 wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:
chang50 wrote:Surely if we have an omnipotent God he intends for everything that actually happens to happen even if we accept freewill.

Intends? Or allows based on free will? Eg. I could allow a worker at my store to treat a customer terribly, but that doesn't therefore mean that I intend for him to do so.


But unlike you an omniscient God knows in advance how we will use the freewill he has allowed us.As I see it there are inherent contradictions in the concept of the omnimax God accepted by Christian theists,and much has been written about this.
By omnimax I mean omnipresent,omniscient,omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

Omnibenevolence is highly difficult to define, however disregarding that for the moment, I disagree that simply because an omniscient, omnipotent God foreknows what we will do with our free will therefore means that he intends that we do what we do. Simply because a parent knows that a child will get hurt and will hurt others throughout the course of their lifetime doesn't mean that the parent intends for those things to happen. You might say then that God is omnipotent, so unlike the parent, he could prevent a person from doing those things which He does not intend. But then we're trespassing on free will. You might say than that since God is omniscient, he could've created a universe where no evil occurred. But then the people of that universe would not have the capacity to make choices and freely love; they would merely be robots always doing what is good. True love is voluntary and requires a choice otherwise it is no longer love.

Anyways I'm getting off on a tangent. As I mentioned before, or I should say, after you ninja-fast-posted my edit (and as you mentioned also) this discussion has been written about in many books over thousands of years, which is why I don't expect us to solve it here today. If you're seriously interested though, there's plenty that you can research into the subject.
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