Should the Totenkopf be banned as a avatar??

[bedub1]

Its a Shame to even read about this issue..

Banning is a form of censorship and I can only conclude this reflects the modern tendency to paranoia...

Ridiculous and Biggott

PS: How about the Che Guevara head, should we discuss the matter on the same basis..???

hey, just post a nude from michelangello or any renaissance artist you want on CC forums and tell me what happens. There has always been censorship o this site, and i see no reason to let people have insignas of mass murderers who are responsible of familly deaths and tortures to a relatively high percentage of CC users while a simple painted nipple would be censored.
And no, you don't live in a world where everything is permitted, it has never been this way and it will never be.

I did post Michelangelo's David. It's still in the thread where I posted it. Never edited, never modified. It's not pornography, it's art.

Also people seem to think that they have a right to "not be offended". I hear Muslims say this all the time about how they want to outlaw blasphemy. It's ridiculous. Crazy religious people are offended by gays; should gays be outlawed? It really comes down to the fact that being offended is an emotional reaction to external stimuli. IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT IF YOU ARE OFFENDED.

We can't outlaw offensive things, because somewhere in the world you can find somebody that is offended by something, which means everything has to be outlawed. It's just plain ridiculous.

[DoomYoshi]

baleeted

[ghostly447]

do you really need an explanation? your name "bigballstalin" and the fact that you have his face put on a kermitt the frog costume doesn't look like anything else than a joke, therefore i don't see how it could be offensive.

other than this, stalin was a douche, like most USSR leaders but i'd give him the 1st prize. I don't see how your username avatar could possibly glorify stalin. please change your avatar in order to glorify stalin and i will see if you make me change my mind.

Thanks for admitting that you're clearly being arbitrary here. Stalin is a joke who deserves a 1st prize according to you, but the Totenkopf? oh no no, that's not right cuz you said so.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped glorifying wolves. For millennia, they've hunted down our ancestors and killed countless women and children. Have you no shame?

At this point, you're simply expressing some emotional diatribe, or you're just trolling. Which is it, betiko?

Nice twist of the words Mr. Immature. I would bother with saying more, but you may try to get some propoganda going and twist my words to fit your needs as well.

[BigBallinStalin]

do you really need an explanation? your name "bigballstalin" and the fact that you have his face put on a kermitt the frog costume doesn't look like anything else than a joke, therefore i don't see how it could be offensive.

other than this, stalin was a douche, like most USSR leaders but i'd give him the 1st prize. I don't see how your username avatar could possibly glorify stalin. please change your avatar in order to glorify stalin and i will see if you make me change my mind.

Thanks for admitting that you're clearly being arbitrary here. Stalin is a joke who deserves a 1st prize according to you, but the Totenkopf? oh no no, that's not right cuz you said so.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped glorifying wolves. For millennia, they've hunted down our ancestors and killed countless women and children. Have you no shame?

At this point, you're simply expressing some emotional diatribe, or you're just trolling. Which is it, betiko?

what do you not understand in my post? you are not glorifying stalin as far as i know, you're making fun of him. He was so mean that I even recognize him with jack nicholson's face in shinning and kermitt's body.
Wolves are animals and can't be held responsble for their actions; in fact they are protected in order to not see them disappear, such as elephants, hippos, lions, polar bears, sharks and any other animal that could kill a human in seconds.
Now if I need to go deeper in my explanations regarding the difference with SS militias, I think I would need to o too much into details because obviously some obvious conections are a bit rusty in your brain.

I can't believe that you'd stoop so low to defend your glorification of animals which have killed hundreds of thousands of human beings and other animals.

That is offensive; therefore, your avatar should be removed.

Suppose you were offered a 'choice' between being prison guard of a concentration camp or being shot in the head for not obeying orders. Should people be held responsible for choices they make under duress?

If yes, then choices involving the killing of civilians fall in this realm. The US has killed their fair share of civilians over the past hundred years, and this is offensive. Therefore, any avatar that bears any US symbol should be banned--due to the similarity in choices under duress. Same goes for the French resistance group and their terrorist tactics.

But you don't want to take it there because you only want the SS thing to be banned. You won't be logically consistent on this because you're acting arbitrarily. Just admit that you're being inconsistent and arbitrary, and I'll stop exposing these two faults within your reasoning.

[BigBallinStalin]

do you really need an explanation? your name "bigballstalin" and the fact that you have his face put on a kermitt the frog costume doesn't look like anything else than a joke, therefore i don't see how it could be offensive.

other than this, stalin was a douche, like most USSR leaders but i'd give him the 1st prize. I don't see how your username avatar could possibly glorify stalin. please change your avatar in order to glorify stalin and i will see if you make me change my mind.

Thanks for admitting that you're clearly being arbitrary here. Stalin is a joke who deserves a 1st prize according to you, but the Totenkopf? oh no no, that's not right cuz you said so.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped glorifying wolves. For millennia, they've hunted down our ancestors and killed countless women and children. Have you no shame?

At this point, you're simply expressing some emotional diatribe, or you're just trolling. Which is it, betiko?

Nice twist of the words Mr. Immature. I would bother with saying more, but you may try to get some propoganda going and twist my words to fit your needs as well.

WHOA, what's with the bold, Mr. Arbitrary?

Wait a minute... "you may try to twist MY words..."

But I was responding to betiko... Yet the responder is ghostly447.


[Multi Detected.]

[bedub1]

So what you are saying is that war crimes only matter if people can remember them? The British empire murdering and enslaving peoples from half the world no longer matters, because there are still holocaust survivors? In other words, you won't be happy until all the holocaust survivors are dead! In other words, you wish Hitler would have finished the job - you sick f*ck.

Who are you responding to?

[ghostly447]

do you really need an explanation? your name "bigballstalin" and the fact that you have his face put on a kermitt the frog costume doesn't look like anything else than a joke, therefore i don't see how it could be offensive.

other than this, stalin was a douche, like most USSR leaders but i'd give him the 1st prize. I don't see how your username avatar could possibly glorify stalin. please change your avatar in order to glorify stalin and i will see if you make me change my mind.

Thanks for admitting that you're clearly being arbitrary here. Stalin is a joke who deserves a 1st prize according to you, but the Totenkopf? oh no no, that's not right cuz you said so.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped glorifying wolves. For millennia, they've hunted down our ancestors and killed countless women and children. Have you no shame?

At this point, you're simply expressing some emotional diatribe, or you're just trolling. Which is it, betiko?

Nice twist of the words Mr. Immature. I would bother with saying more, but you may try to get some propoganda going and twist my words to fit your needs as well.

WHOA, what's with the bold, Mr. Arbitrary?


Wait a minute... "you may try to twist MY words..."

But I was responding to betiko... Yet the responder is ghostly447.


[Multi Detected.]

I bolded because I bolded the part I was responding to. I forgot that we couldnt respond according to our opinion in this forum based off somethign soemone else said. That is called arguing, or debating, and obviously that isnt what this particular thread was for.

Sarcasm should also be detected sir.

[Funkyterrance]

WHOA, what's with the bold, Mr. Arbitrary?

Wait a minute... "you may try to twist MY words..."

But I was responding to betiko... Yet the responder is ghostly447.


[Multi Detected.]

Whoah, whoah, WHOAH!

BBS seems to be be using ridiculous examples to try and prove that the question is ridiculous but I think its being taken as undermining the feelings of those involved and therefore needlessly escalating emotions.
As someone pointed out earlier, this website practices censorship. It should at least be consistent. The fact that anyone has to ever change their avatar makes Betiko's argument a winner. Until there is actual freedom of speech on this website you/we are going to have to suck it up cupcakes.

[Juan_Bottom]

Betiko, are you afraid to admit that the SS were a far more elite group than anything the Free French could field during WW2? Here at conquer club, we have respect for military might. While the end years of the war saw mostly untrained children fighting in SS uniforms, during the early years I would pick the WaffenSS for many different operations over any French units.

What I am trying to say is that the SS should be glorified, but only for their contribution to military history. Let us not forget it was the Waffen who kicked the British out of France for you.

EDIT: Let me rephrase this. In addition to war crimes, the SS also did WAR. So why not celebrate their achievements in War? Is Sir Liddell Hart a terrible strategist because his strategies allowed the Germans to occupy most of Europe rather quickly?

This is a dishonest representation of the SS and history.
Neither the SS Einsatzgruppen or the SS Totenkopfverbände were soldiers. Hitler personally decreed that the SS Einsatzgruppen were neither soldiers nor police, and operated at his pleasure during war and during peace. Their only job was to find "undesirable people" and "treat them as partisans." That's military code for summary execution on the spot. And that was Hitler's order. They rounded up 1 million people and killed them, and they didn't use any concentration camps to do it.
The SS Totenkopfverbände were the guards at the Concentration camps. They killed millions more. This symbol (that's what it is) that we are discussing is where their name comes from.
Because of Hitler's order, and because of the illegal and unconscionable actions of the SS, they were condemned as a criminal organization at Nurembourg. They're scumbags; criminals who deserve neither respect nor romance.

Both the Totenkopfverbände and the Einsatzgruppen wore the Totenkopf, and they are the one's who are associated with the symbol. They wore it in the field, or the camp, because Himler wanted to make people fear and respect the SS. The SS soldiers, or "division of" soldiers who were part of combat groups, the Waffen, typically didn't wear the Totenkopf because they didn't have a black dress uniform. When the war erupted, they were ordered to turn those uniforms in. I believe that tank commanders and officers kept the cap, but soldiers didn't. Instead they wore green camouflage and painted helmets, or something similar.

Yet even the Waffen units were not soldiers, and were never part of the Heer, or army. Typically the SS fought to the death, totally brainwashed and committed to Hitler. They were responsible for innumerable war crimes, killing prisoners and civilians alike. They were not respected as people. Their ability and willingness to fight and sacrifice was highly respected, but as soldiers and men they themselves were not respected.

Also, as has been said, the French partisans were in no way comparable to the SS. It's unfair to imply anything about that. Although, yes, many partisans won honor and love because they chose to fight for the death, particularly in areas occupied by the SS after the invasion of France. There's a lot to say here about the relationship in France between the SS and the partisans. The partisans would kill 1 SS soldier, and then the SS would murder a whole village irrespective of age or gender.

[Juan_Bottom]

we're talking about people mass murdering civilians in my country and many other european ones. The waffen SS was a political army with a very disturbing ideology. I can't possiblydissociate one from another.

This is the summary of all that I need to understand.

Some of you might have their grandpa or other members of your familly that made the D-day in Normandy, not sure it's the most respectfull thing that 60 years later people would wear insignas of those who terrorized europe in the deadliest conflict ever.

the other day i saw a french documentary which was about guns in the US at some point they go to a gun convention with hillbillies, and many of them were selling nazi flags on their stand, the presenter really had problems understanding how these type of things could be sold so freely.
These are just called cultural differences.

In the United States of America, we had something called Manifest Destiny, which was basically a disorganized genocide of Native Americans from coast to coast. A hero of the progrom, president Andrew Jackson, is immortalized on the US $20 bill. I actually live 30 miles from a massacre site that is not only unmarked, but is also forgotten. Our progrom was successful, with natives being eradicated all over. So we forget our history and are dispassionate about it or remember the horrible things we've done as a nation. BUT!
Another extremely popular institution, slavery, failed. Jim Crow, the illegal design of controlling black Americans after the Emancipation has also failed. So today, white Americans don't dare use the the word "n*gger" or put on black face. We are forced to deal with our mistakes instead of forgetting them like we've done with Manifest Destiny.
Black face avatars, by the way, are banned on this website because of this.

We have a lot in common, even if we don't see it.

[persianempire]

one thing not to be mistaken is that the Waffen SS was the elite combat unit of the SS. they are not the murderers and killers , death squads and all that , they were the special forces of germany in the day , compared with todays russian spetnaz and american green berets. although yes they are SS they are not death squads they are combat soldiers. the best trained , the best equipment , favor given to over the rest of the wehrmacht they are the praetorian guard so to speak. that is why they are not all called just SS , they have their specific area of expertise you could say , such ass SS Panzer division , SS Fallshcirmjager, and other SS combat units . you wouldnt see SS Totenkopfverbände or SS Einsatzgruppenn in battle ever . Himmler is the executioner he is the bad guy , he leads the Einsatzgruppen and Totenkopfverbände , but the Waffen SS takes their orders from the army , i suppose this is the great debate over the Death's head badge

[Symmetry]

one thing not to be mistaken is that the Waffen SS was the elite combat unit of the SS. they are not the murderers and killers , death squads and all that , they were the special forces of germany in the day , compared with todays russian spetnaz and american green berets. although yes they are SS they are not death squads they are combat soldiers. the best trained , the best equipment , favor given to over the rest of the wehrmacht they are the praetorian guard so to speak. that is why they are not all called just SS , they have their specific area of expertise you could say , such ass SS Panzer division , SS Fallshcirmjager, and other SS combat units . you wouldnt see SS Totenkopfverbände or SS Einsatzgruppenn in battle ever . Himmler is the executioner he is the bad guy , he leads the Einsatzgruppen and Totenkopfverbände , but the Waffen SS takes their orders from the army , i suppose this is the great debate over the Death's head badge

War crimes

The separately organised Allgemeine SS was responsible for the administration of death camps, although many members of it and the SS-Totenkopfverbände subsequently became members of the Waffen-SS, forming the initial core of the Totenkopf Division.[19][21] Many Waffen-SS members and units were responsible for war crimes against civilians and allied servicemen. For members who did not directly take part in them, they had to face the fact there was a "guilt by association" that attached. After the war the Schutzstaffel organisation as a whole was held to be a criminal organization by the post-war German government, due to evidence that it was responsible for war crimes. Formations such as the Dirlewanger and Kaminski Brigades were singled out, and many others were involved in large-scale massacres or smaller-scale killings such as the Houtman affair[112] or murders perpetrated by Heinrich Boere. The most infamous incidents include the following:

Wormhoudt massacre by SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, 1940, Belgium
Le Paradis massacre by SS Division Totenkopf, 1940, France
Oradour-sur-Glane massacre by SS Division Das Reich, 1944, France
Ochota massacre by SS Kaminski Brigade, 1944, Poland
Wola massacre by SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger, 1944 Poland
Huta Pieniacka massacre by SS-Galizien division 1944, Poland
Tulle massacre by SS Das Reich, 1944, France
Marzabotto massacre by 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS, 1944, Italy
Malmedy massacre by Kampfgruppe Peiper part of 1st SS Panzer Division, 1944, Belgium
Ardeatine massacre by two SS Officers, 1944, Italy
Distomo massacre by 4th SS Polizei Division, 1944, Greece
Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre by 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS, 1944, Italy
Ardenne Abbey massacre 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend, 1944, France

The linking of the SS-VT with the SS-Totenkopfverbände (SS-TV) in 1938 posed important questions about Waffen-SS criminality,[17] since the SS-TV were already responsible for imprisonment, torture and murder of Jews (and other political opponents) through providing the personnel for manning of the Concentration Camps. Their leader, Theodor Eicke, who was the commandant of the Dachau concentration camp, inspector of the camps and murderer of Ernst Röhm, later became the commander of the 3 SS Totenkopf Division.[14] With the invasion of Poland, the Totenkopfverbände troops were called on to carry out "police and security measures" in rear areas. What these measures involved is demonstrated by the record of SS Totenkopf Standarte Brandenburg. It arrived in Włocławek on 22 September 1939 and embarked on a four day "Jewish action" that included the burning of synagogues and the execution en masse of the leaders of the Jewish community. On 29 September the Standarte travelled to Bydgoszcz to conduct an "intelligentsia action". Approximately 800 Polish civilians and what the Sicherheitsdienst (SD) termed "potential resistance leaders" were killed. The Totenkopfverbände was to become one of the elite SS divisions, but from the start they were among the first executors of a policy of systematic extermination.

Several formations within the Waffen-SS were found guilty of a war crime, especially in the opening and closing phases of the war.[2] In addition to documented atrocities, Waffen-SS units assisted in rounding up Eastern European Jews for deportation and utilised Scorched-earth tactics during anti-partisan operations. Some Waffen-SS personnel convalesced at concentration camps, from which they were drawn, by serving guard duties. Other members of the Waffen-SS were more directly involved in genocide.[113]

The end of the war saw a number of war crime trials, including the Malmedy massacre trial. The counts of indictment related to the massacre of more than 300 American prisoners "in the vicinity of Malmedy, Honsfeld, Büllingen, Ligneuville, Stoumont, La Gleize, Cheneux, Petit Thier, Trois Ponts, Stavelot, Wanne and Lutrebois", between 16 December 1944 and 13 January 1945, and the massacre of 100 Belgian civilians mainly in the vicinity of Stavelot.[114]

During the Nuremberg Trials, the Waffen-SS was declared a criminal organisation, except conscripts from 1943 onward, who were exempted from that judgement as they had been forced to join.[115]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#War_crimes

[BigBallinStalin]

do you really need an explanation? your name "bigballstalin" and the fact that you have his face put on a kermitt the frog costume doesn't look like anything else than a joke, therefore i don't see how it could be offensive.

other than this, stalin was a douche, like most USSR leaders but i'd give him the 1st prize. I don't see how your username avatar could possibly glorify stalin. please change your avatar in order to glorify stalin and i will see if you make me change my mind.

Thanks for admitting that you're clearly being arbitrary here. Stalin is a joke who deserves a 1st prize according to you, but the Totenkopf? oh no no, that's not right cuz you said so.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped glorifying wolves. For millennia, they've hunted down our ancestors and killed countless women and children. Have you no shame?

At this point, you're simply expressing some emotional diatribe, or you're just trolling. Which is it, betiko?

Nice twist of the words Mr. Immature. I would bother with saying more, but you may try to get some propoganda going and twist my words to fit your needs as well.

WHOA, what's with the bold, Mr. Arbitrary?


Wait a minute... "you may try to twist MY words..."

But I was responding to betiko... Yet the responder is ghostly447.


[Multi Detected.]

I bolded because I bolded the part I was responding to. I forgot that we couldnt respond according to our opinion in this forum based off somethign soemone else said. That is called arguing, or debating, and obviously that isnt what this particular thread was for.

Sarcasm should also be detected sir.

If I was a multi-hunter, I'd definitely investigate you and betiko.

[BigBallinStalin]

WHOA, what's with the bold, Mr. Arbitrary?

Wait a minute... "you may try to twist MY words..."

But I was responding to betiko... Yet the responder is ghostly447.


[Multi Detected.]

Whoah, whoah, WHOAH!

BBS seems to be be using ridiculous examples to try and prove that the question is ridiculous but I think its being taken as undermining the feelings of those involved and therefore needlessly escalating emotions.
As someone pointed out earlier, this website practices censorship. It should at least be consistent. The fact that anyone has to ever change their avatar makes Betiko's argument a winner. Until there is actual freedom of speech on this website you/we are going to have to suck it up cupcakes.

I like it when the tensions are high. The forum then becomes a conduit for core beliefs. No bullshitting allowed at that point!

[Funkyterrance]

If I was a multi-hunter, I'd definitely investigate you and betiko.

If my auntie had bullocks she'd be my uncle.

[BigBallinStalin]

If I was a multi-hunter, I'd definitely investigate you and betiko.

If my auntie had bullocks she'd be my uncle.

I'd definitely investigate FunkyT's family as well. Bit too weird for the Public Good, in my professional opinion.

[Funkyterrance]

Whoah, whoah, WHOAH!

BBS seems to be be using ridiculous examples to try and prove that the question is ridiculous but I think its being taken as undermining the feelings of those involved and therefore needlessly escalating emotions.
As someone pointed out earlier, this website practices censorship. It should at least be consistent. The fact that anyone has to ever change their avatar makes Betiko's argument a winner. Until there is actual freedom of speech on this website you/we are going to have to suck it up cupcakes.

I like it when the tensions are high. The forum then becomes a conduit for core beliefs. No bullshitting allowed at that point!

I might object to that statement but in this case it seems you are exactly right.

[ghostly447]

one thing not to be mistaken is that the Waffen SS was the elite combat unit of the SS. they are not the murderers and killers , death squads and all that , they were the special forces of germany in the day , compared with todays russian spetnaz and american green berets. although yes they are SS they are not death squads they are combat soldiers. the best trained , the best equipment , favor given to over the rest of the wehrmacht they are the praetorian guard so to speak. that is why they are not all called just SS , they have their specific area of expertise you could say , such ass SS Panzer division , SS Fallshcirmjager, and other SS combat units . you wouldnt see SS Totenkopfverbände or SS Einsatzgruppenn in battle ever . Himmler is the executioner he is the bad guy , he leads the Einsatzgruppen and Totenkopfverbände , but the Waffen SS takes their orders from the army , i suppose this is the great debate over the Death's head badge

Uhhh, I havent read page 12 yet, but does anyone else see something strange with Persian saying he didnt know anything about the symbol and all of a sudden has a wealth of knowledge to pour out?

[Funkyterrance]

Uhhh, I havent read page 12 yet, but does anyone else see something strange with Persian saying he didnt know anything about the symbol and all of a sudden has a wealth of knowledge to pour out?

Careful, ghostly, he could have looked the information up after the fact. Benefit of the doubt, right? He took the avatar down so there's no need to make further attempts at damaging his image. We aren't looking to eradicate the guy are we?

[ghostly447]

Uhhh, I havent read page 12 yet, but does anyone else see something strange with Persian saying he didnt know anything about the symbol and all of a sudden has a wealth of knowledge to pour out?

Careful, ghostly, he could have looked the information up after the fact. Benefit of the doubt, right? He took the avatar down so there's no need to make further attempts at damaging his image. We aren't looking to eradicate the guy are we?

Of course benefit of the doubt. I am not (and have not been) trying to damage his image. He was very respectful in the removal of his ava upon request. I just thought it was strange in a way.

[Juan_Bottom]

So I have a question then,

Why is it that black-face is banned as an avatar,
while the SS Death-Squad Totenkopf is acceptable?


I believe that this question says more about us as a group than this thread has said. American's sensitivities are more important than European ones.

[thegreekdog]

So I have a question then,

Why is it that black-face is banned as an avatar,
while the SS Death-Squad Totenkopf is acceptable?


I believe that this question says more about us as a group than this thread has said. American's sensitivities are more important than European ones.

Us? I think you mean the moderators.

[Juan_Bottom]

This forum doesn't belong to the moderators; it belongs to the community. It's our responsibility to take care of each other. Anytime we want to change things, we can. For example, black face wasn't banned when I first joined. Guys.

[thegreekdog]

This forum doesn't belong to the moderators; it belongs to the community. It's our responsibility to take care of each other. Anytime we want to change things, we can. For example, black face wasn't banned when I first joined. Guys.

I guess my point is that it's not all of us. I don't know the history behind black face, but I suspect one person reported it, some people landed on the side of "BAN HIM" and it was done. I don't think we should all be painted with the same brush. There are probably three groups:

(1) Ban anything that anyone finds offensive (even if one person finds it offensive).
(2) Selectively ban things.
(3) Don't ban anything.

[Army of GOD]

This forum doesn't belong to the moderators; it belongs to the community. It's our responsibility to take care of each other. Anytime we want to change things, we can. For example, black face wasn't banned when I first joined. Guys.

I guess my point is that it's not all of us. I don't know the history behind black face, but I suspect one person reported it, some people landed on the side of "BAN HIM" and it was done. I don't think we should all be painted with the same brush. There are probably three groups:

(1) Ban anything that anyone finds offensive (even if one person finds it offensive).
(2) Selectively ban things.
(3) Don't ban anything.

(1) is lame, (2) allows for too much grey area and subjectivity and (3) is the most fair.

Therefore, 3.