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Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:02 pm

Looks like there's a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, brokered by Egypt and the US.
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:33 pm

Symmetry wrote:
2dimes wrote:Yeah, every one that went to take the modern state of Israel back must have been from Australia.


Oh for goodness sake, I gave you the demographics. I'm not sure why you're harping on about this.


Oh, I don't know. Just for entertainment mostly. I should probably get a job at the arches or something.

Why are you pretending to be dumb.

If you really figure the answer to my question of where the people that settled, settled, not live there now, is answered by. "Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born" then I'm not sure what to say here.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby GreecePwns on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:37 pm

Here is the full text of the agreement:
Understanding regarding ceasfire in Gaza Strip
- Israel shall stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land sea and air, including incursions and targeting of individuals.
- All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel, including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.
- Opening the crossings and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents' free movements and targeting residents in border areas. Procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.
- Other matters as may be requested shall be addressed.

Implementation mechanism
- Setting up the zero hour understanding to enter into effect.
- Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon.
- Each party shall commit itself not to perform any acts that would breach this understanding. In case of any observations, Egypt as a sponsor of this understanding, shall be informed to follow up.

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Re:

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:41 pm

2dimes wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
2dimes wrote:Yeah, every one that went to take the modern state of Israel back must have been from Australia.


Oh for goodness sake, I gave you the demographics. I'm not sure why you're harping on about this.


Oh, I don't know. Just for entertainment mostly. I should probably get a job at the arches or something.

Why are you pretending to be dumb.

If you really figure the answer to my question of where the people that settled, settled, not live there now, is answered by. "Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born" then I'm not sure what to say here.


I think i answered the question with a detailed source that explained a bit more than that. But clearly you didn't bother reading the link, or indeed my post.

So anyway, here it is again:

Symmetry wrote:
There's always wikipedia, if you are genuinely puzzled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Demographics

Israel was established as a homeland for the Jewish people and is often referred to as a Jewish state. The country's Law of Return grants all Jews and those of Jewish lineage the right to Israeli citizenship.[340] Over three quarters, or 75.5%, of the population are Jews from a diversity of Jewish backgrounds. Around 4% of Israelis (300,000), ethnically defined as "others", are Russian-descendants of Jewish origin or family who are not Jewish according to rabbinical law, but were eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return.[341][342] Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, 22% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab World).[343][344] Jews who left or fled Arab and Muslim countries and their descendants, known as Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews,[345] constitute approximately 50% of Jewish Israelis.[346][347][348] Jews from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union and their Israeli-born descendants, or Ashkenazi Jews, form most of the rest of the Jewish population.
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Re: Another Round of Israeli Attacks on Gaza

Postby bedub1 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:41 pm

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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby GreecePwns on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:43 pm

Yes, indeed it does mean that. The biggest win for Gaza and its citizens in a long while.
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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby patches70 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:59 pm

Headlines read-
ISRAEL HAS AGREED TO STOP KILLING GAZA QUICKLY, WILL RETURN TO KILLING GAZA SLOWLY
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:07 pm

This?
Israel was established as a homeland for the Jewish people and is often referred to as a Jewish state. The country's Law of Return grants all Jews and those of Jewish lineage the right to Israeli citizenship.[340] Over three quarters, or 75.5%, of the population are Jews from a diversity of Jewish backgrounds. Around 4% of Israelis (300,000), ethnically defined as "others", are Russian-descendants of Jewish origin or family who are not Jewish according to rabbinical law, but were eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return. Sure, thanks but, you're daft if you think I care enough about what you're trying to convince me of to dig through 90+% non relevant info here.[341][342] Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, 22% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab World).[343][344] Jews who left or fled Arab and Muslim countries and their descendants, known as Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews,[345] constitute approximately 50% of Jewish Israelis.[346][347][348] Jews from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union and their Israeli-born descendants, or Ashkenazi Jews, form most of the rest of the Jewish population.


I invite you to read it close. You''ve convinced me of your thing, I guess all Jewish people that lost property during world war II were killed, none of them ended up taking over land in Israel.
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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:10 pm

This was a huge, stunning victory for Hamas and a major, humiliating defeat for militant Zionism. It's amazing what a battered, broken and outnumbered people can do against one of the world's largest war machines if sufficiently motivated. The significance of this Hamas victory - and totality of the Israeli defeat - can't be understated.

    IMO, it will be incredibly difficult for Fatah to continue to pretend it is the legitimate government of the PNA after Hamas has achieved what Abbas and his cronies have been utterly incapable and impotent to do. It's time for Abbas to step down and turn full control of the PNA over to Hamas.

As for Jewish property losses - they have been, and continue to be, compensated both individually and collectively through the Conference on Material Claims Against Germany. Likewise, Palestinians deserve to be compensated for their property losses in exactly the same way.
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Re:

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:16 pm

2dimes wrote:This?
Israel was established as a homeland for the Jewish people and is often referred to as a Jewish state. The country's Law of Return grants all Jews and those of Jewish lineage the right to Israeli citizenship.[340] Over three quarters, or 75.5%, of the population are Jews from a diversity of Jewish backgrounds. Around 4% of Israelis (300,000), ethnically defined as "others", are Russian-descendants of Jewish origin or family who are not Jewish according to rabbinical law, but were eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return. Sure, thanks but, you're daft if you think I care enough about what you're trying to convince me of to dig through 90+% non relevant info here.[341][342] Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, 22% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab World).[343][344] Jews who left or fled Arab and Muslim countries and their descendants, known as Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews,[345] constitute approximately 50% of Jewish Israelis.[346][347][348] Jews from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union and their Israeli-born descendants, or Ashkenazi Jews, form most of the rest of the Jewish population.


I invite you to read it close. You''ve convinced me of your thing, I guess all Jewish people that lost property during world war II were killed, none of them ended up taking over land in Israel.


You're welcome to show me any kind of evidence for your stance. I will, until then, remain a bit skeptical about your guesses.
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Re: Re:

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:18 pm

Symmetry wrote:
2dimes wrote:This?
Israel was established as a homeland for the Jewish people and is often referred to as a Jewish state. The country's Law of Return grants all Jews and those of Jewish lineage the right to Israeli citizenship.[340] Over three quarters, or 75.5%, of the population are Jews from a diversity of Jewish backgrounds. Around 4% of Israelis (300,000), ethnically defined as "others", are Russian-descendants of Jewish origin or family who are not Jewish according to rabbinical law, but were eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return. Sure, thanks but, you're daft if you think I care enough about what you're trying to convince me of to dig through 90+% non relevant info here.[341][342] Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, 22% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab World).[343][344] Jews who left or fled Arab and Muslim countries and their descendants, known as Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews,[345] constitute approximately 50% of Jewish Israelis.[346][347][348] Jews from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union and their Israeli-born descendants, or Ashkenazi Jews, form most of the rest of the Jewish population.


I invite you to read it close. You''ve convinced me of your thing, I guess all Jewish people that lost property during world war II were killed, none of them ended up taking over land in Israel.


You're welcome to show me any kind of evidence for your stance. I will, until then, remain a bit skeptical about your guesses.


Your argument is analogous to saying "well, most Americans today are American-born, so I'm skeptical of the claim that most of them are actually descendants of Europeans."
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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby patches70 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:20 pm

saxitoxin wrote:This was a huge, stunning victory for Hamas and a major, humiliating defeat for militant Zionism. It's amazing what a battered, broken and outnumbered people can do against one of the world's largest war machines if sufficiently motivated. The significance of this Hamas victory - and totality of the Israeli defeat - can't be understated.



:lol:

Good one Saxi.
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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:27 pm

patches70 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:This was a huge, stunning victory for Hamas and a major, humiliating defeat for militant Zionism. It's amazing what a battered, broken and outnumbered people can do against one of the world's largest war machines if sufficiently motivated. The significance of this Hamas victory - and totality of the Israeli defeat - can't be understated.



:lol:

Good one Saxi.


?

For five years, Israel has claimed that they will be totally insecure and open to a full-on assault without the blockade on Gaza. Hamas begins military operations against Israel and - eight days later - Netanyahu agrees, from his underground bunker where he's hiding, to capitulate and agrees to lift the blockade. I'd call that a pretty significant victory. And, it was the victory of a tiny nation of 1.5 million people equipped with Soviet-era surplus weapons against a nation of 8 million armed to the teeth with the latest in advanced technology.

Looks like the Israelis aren't the only ones who can bring down the Walls of Jericho.
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Re: Re:

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:28 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
2dimes wrote:This?
Israel was established as a homeland for the Jewish people and is often referred to as a Jewish state. The country's Law of Return grants all Jews and those of Jewish lineage the right to Israeli citizenship.[340] Over three quarters, or 75.5%, of the population are Jews from a diversity of Jewish backgrounds. Around 4% of Israelis (300,000), ethnically defined as "others", are Russian-descendants of Jewish origin or family who are not Jewish according to rabbinical law, but were eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return. Sure, thanks but, you're daft if you think I care enough about what you're trying to convince me of to dig through 90+% non relevant info here.[341][342] Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, 22% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab World).[343][344] Jews who left or fled Arab and Muslim countries and their descendants, known as Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews,[345] constitute approximately 50% of Jewish Israelis.[346][347][348] Jews from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union and their Israeli-born descendants, or Ashkenazi Jews, form most of the rest of the Jewish population.


I invite you to read it close. You''ve convinced me of your thing, I guess all Jewish people that lost property during world war II were killed, none of them ended up taking over land in Israel.


You're welcome to show me any kind of evidence for your stance. I will, until then, remain a bit skeptical about your guesses.


Your argument is analogous to saying "well, most Americans today are American-born, so I'm skeptical of the claim that most of them are actually descendants of Europeans."


Still no source? Are you guys really going to stick with crude ad homs and declasse critiques? Post your evidence, and we'll talk.
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Re: Re:

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:31 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
2dimes wrote:This?
Israel was established as a homeland for the Jewish people and is often referred to as a Jewish state. The country's Law of Return grants all Jews and those of Jewish lineage the right to Israeli citizenship.[340] Over three quarters, or 75.5%, of the population are Jews from a diversity of Jewish backgrounds. Around 4% of Israelis (300,000), ethnically defined as "others", are Russian-descendants of Jewish origin or family who are not Jewish according to rabbinical law, but were eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return. Sure, thanks but, you're daft if you think I care enough about what you're trying to convince me of to dig through 90+% non relevant info here.[341][342] Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, 22% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab World).[343][344] Jews who left or fled Arab and Muslim countries and their descendants, known as Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews,[345] constitute approximately 50% of Jewish Israelis.[346][347][348] Jews from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union and their Israeli-born descendants, or Ashkenazi Jews, form most of the rest of the Jewish population.


I invite you to read it close. You''ve convinced me of your thing, I guess all Jewish people that lost property during world war II were killed, none of them ended up taking over land in Israel.


You're welcome to show me any kind of evidence for your stance. I will, until then, remain a bit skeptical about your guesses.


Your argument is analogous to saying "well, most Americans today are American-born, so I'm skeptical of the claim that most of them are actually descendants of Europeans."


Still no source? Are you guys really going to stick with crude ad homs and declasse critiques? Post your evidence, and we'll talk.


ITT: Symmetry doesn't understand what an ad hominem argument is.

Do your own research.
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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:35 pm

ITT Mets is ardent that he's correct, can't back it up, gets upset when a poster asks him to back up his claims, makes a pissy "ITT" post about the poster who asked him for something, anything that would support his stance.

The rest is history.
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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby patches70 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:36 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
patches70 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:This was a huge, stunning victory for Hamas and a major, humiliating defeat for militant Zionism. It's amazing what a battered, broken and outnumbered people can do against one of the world's largest war machines if sufficiently motivated. The significance of this Hamas victory - and totality of the Israeli defeat - can't be understated.



:lol:

Good one Saxi.


?

For five years, Israel has claimed that they will be totally insecure and open to a full-on assault without the blockade on Gaza. Hamas begins military operations against Israel and - eight days later - Netanyahu agrees, from his underground bunker where he's hiding, to capitulate and agrees to lift the blockade. I'd call that a pretty significant victory. And, it was the victory of a tiny nation of 1.5 million people equipped with Soviet-era surplus weapons against a nation of 8 million armed to the teeth with the latest in advanced technology.

Looks like the Israelis aren't the only ones who can bring down the Walls of Jericho.


Don't wanna burst your bubble, but Israel isn't going to lift their naval blockade. They aren't going to let weapons and large numbers of commodities, in particular building supplies, steel and such.
The Palestinians will be let through the Egyptian overland crossing. Gaza will still not be able to trade directly, all trade to Gaza will continue to go through Israel first.

And the first excuse, like a rocket fired, a shooting at the border and it all clamps right back down.

Here is victory for ya-
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What's it called? A Pyrrhic victory.

Go Team!
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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:44 pm

Symmetry wrote:ITT Mets is ardent that he's correct, can't back it up, gets upset when a poster asks him to back up his claims, makes a pissy "ITT" post about the poster who asked him for something, anything that would support his stance.

The rest is history.


I didn't actually make a claim. I'm not sure what you think I am intending to "back up." I am simply critiquing the idea that a demographic census of Israel in 2012 says anything about Israeli demographics in 1948.
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:46 pm

Still no source? Are you guys really going to stick with crude ad homs and declasse critiques? Post your evidence, and we'll talk.


Oh for goodness sake. Max and I used your source. Do you think I made up the 68% figure? Someone else did.
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:48 pm

This is the history.
patches70 wrote:the definitive history of the conflict, put to soothing music-




Even if you're Israeli, hebrew, Jewish or whatever... you can't live there. Someone will come kill you to take over. The place is jinxed.
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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:50 pm

patches70 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
patches70 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:This was a huge, stunning victory for Hamas and a major, humiliating defeat for militant Zionism. It's amazing what a battered, broken and outnumbered people can do against one of the world's largest war machines if sufficiently motivated. The significance of this Hamas victory - and totality of the Israeli defeat - can't be understated.



:lol:

Good one Saxi.


?

For five years, Israel has claimed that they will be totally insecure and open to a full-on assault without the blockade on Gaza. Hamas begins military operations against Israel and - eight days later - Netanyahu agrees, from his underground bunker where he's hiding, to capitulate and agrees to lift the blockade. I'd call that a pretty significant victory. And, it was the victory of a tiny nation of 1.5 million people equipped with Soviet-era surplus weapons against a nation of 8 million armed to the teeth with the latest in advanced technology.

Looks like the Israelis aren't the only ones who can bring down the Walls of Jericho.


Don't wanna burst your bubble, but Israel isn't going to lift their naval blockade. They aren't going to let weapons and large numbers of commodities, in particular building supplies, steel and such.
The Palestinians will be let through the Egyptian overland crossing. Gaza will still not be able to trade directly, all trade to Gaza will continue to go through Israel first.

And the first excuse, like a rocket fired, a shooting at the border and it all clamps right back down.

Here is victory for ya-
Image

What's it called? A Pyrrhic victory.

Go Team!


Making predictions of future victories by Israel is easy. Those predictions are based on an assumption Zionists will engage in deceit and duplicity and violation of the truce. But those are acts which will precipitate more aggressive military action against Israel in the future and will propel the entire region down a path that can only end in Allied Arab action against the pirate state. Israel barely scratched out victory in 1973 with massive U.S. resupply efforts. Once the U.S. has followed Europe over the brink of bankruptcy, Israel may find itself naked in a field of scorpions. If it's smart, and is thinking more than 9 months ahead, it will obey the ceasefire to the letter and spirit.
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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:51 pm

saxitoxin wrote:Making predictions of future victories by Israel is easy. Those predictions are based on an assumption Zionists will engage in deceit and duplicity and violation of the truce. But those are acts which will precipitate more aggressive military action against Israel in the future and will propel the entire region down a path that can only end in Allied Arab action against the pirate state. Israel barely scratched out victory in 1973 with massive U.S. resupply efforts. Once the U.S. has followed Europe over the brink of bankruptcy, Israel may find itself naked in a field of scorpions. If it's smart, and is thinking more than 9 months ahead, it will obey the ceasefire to the letter and spirit.


The one thing you can never accuse Israel of is not worrying enough about its own future.
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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Symmetry wrote:ITT Mets is ardent that he's correct, can't back it up, gets upset when a poster asks him to back up his claims, makes a pissy "ITT" post about the poster who asked him for something, anything that would support his stance.

The rest is history.


I didn't actually make a claim. I'm not sure what you think I am intending to "back up." I am simply critiquing the idea that a demographic census of Israel in 2012 says anything about Israeli demographics in 1948.


That's a claim dude. I've pointed out that the demographics I provided give ethnic backgrounds. It's well sourced, and isn't, as you suggest, a 2012 census.

You still provide nothing to back up your critique.

I'll double down and give you the full wiki article on the demographics of Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

Perhaps that's enough to get you to provide your mysterious source?
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Re: Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:56 pm

Zionism was supported by the German SS and Gestapo. Hitler himself personally supported Zionism. During the 1930's, in cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some 40 camps throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. As late as 1942 Zionists operated at least one of these officially authorized "Kibbutz" training camps over which flew the blue and white banner which would one day be adopted as the national flag of "Israel".

On December 7, 1938, Ben Gurion, the first head of the Zionist "state of Israel" declared "If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution."

Of the two and a half million Jews seeking refuge from the Nazis between 1935 and 1943, less than 9% went to settle in Palestine. The vast majority, 75%, went to the Soviet Union. In the mid-70's, more people emigrated out of "Israel' than came in.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antis ... upport.cfm
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:00 pm

saxitoxin wrote:As for Jewish property losses - they have been, and continue to be, compensated both individually and collectively through the Conference on Material Claims Against Germany. Likewise, Palestinians deserve to be compensated for their property losses in exactly the same way.

I'll take a look but.. in the case of Israel, I think it's more both of the groups there want to make a home where their family did for whatever reason.

We're a couple of generations past paying out the original owners. That does make a pretty fair case for your idea though.

Have you volunteered to set up a "Palistine compensation board"?
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