Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

[Woodruff]

For everyone who wants to outlaw guns, do you just want every person to hopefully have a chance to call 911 for help and to hopefully have the time to wait for the police to come to take care of you in the event of an emergency?

A personal weapon is the first line of defense for self-protection, and a gun in the possession of a person trained to use it is the best personal weapon for defense. It has enough power to dissuade someone from using force in the first place, but it also has enough stopping power to end any attack that starts. You don't get that same effect from a knife, bat, pan, etc.

Were you going to discuss my ideas regarding mental health or just pretend it is a liberal wasteland?

[Woodruff]

If we are going to control/ban something, how about abortion.

A couple thousand kids are killed every day by abortions.

How is that relevant to the discussion?

[Woodruff]

Anyways, I have 6 more finals which I should be studying for...enjoy your discussion, but at least try to be reasonable if you want to convince someone!

Speaking of reasonable, Ray...once you get back from your finals (good luck, by the way, not that you necessarily need it), how about taking a whack at the issue of mental health services in the United States?

[Woodruff]

I'm curious

Other than "because the second amendment says we can" is there any reason why normal, honest people need ready access to lethal weapons?

The defence vs government argument fails (or at least nobody has challenged it here to show me why it doesn't)

The defence vs criminals argument fails (or at least nobody has challenged it here to show me why it doesn't)

What is there left? And if there's nothing is "because we can" a good enough reason?

Short of a Constitutional Amendment, that really is enough. Also, growing up on a farm, I hunted as a kid. I think it's valid whether viewed as a recreational activity or for food (and yes, there really are people who do need to hunt for food in some parts of our country).

[Woodruff]

Crispy, do you think culture/lack of values has anything to do with it?

How does lack of values affect lack of sanity?

It prevents me from shooting up the place instead of posting on the Internet.

I don't believe that's a valid conclusion, no.

[2dimes]

Crispy, do you think culture/lack of values has anything to do with it?

How does lack of values affect lack of sanity?

It prevents me from shooting up the place instead of posting on the Internet.

I don't believe that's a valid conclusion, no.

Well it's not sanity or lack of targets.

[Woodruff]

Crispy, do you think culture/lack of values has anything to do with it?

How does lack of values affect lack of sanity?

People with autism are sane.

I'm not following how this answers my point, to be honest, since people with autism hold both personal and collective values.

In case you're not sure where I'm going with my question, someone experiencing mental illness isn't going to be particularly impacted by what their culture or society holds to be their collective values. Thus Phatscotty's question really doesn't even enter into a valid discussion of the point, in my opinion.

[Woodruff]

Crispy, do you think culture/lack of values has anything to do with it?

How does lack of values affect lack of sanity?

It prevents me from shooting up the place instead of posting on the Internet.

I don't believe that's a valid conclusion, no.

Well it's not sanity or lack of targets.

You don't believe that sanity keeps you from shooting up the place instead of posting on the internet?

[-Maximus-]

If we are going to control/ban something, how about abortion.

How about people dragging a conversation onto something completely irrelevant to the current topic? (presumably because they have no real arguments for their "I like guns, I want guns, f*ck what's good for society. derp" position? I stand to be corrected)

Irrelevent.

If the small percent of gun crimes can cause a gun ban. DUIs should cause a vehicle ban.

[chang50]

Reading the pro gun ownership posts here makes me feel like I've stepped into a paralell universe.I'm so relieved I don't live amongst such people,you really scare me,honestly.So carry on and good luck with your sacred 2nd amendment rights,and I'll pick up the debate again in a few weeks when the next bunch of small children is massacred,at least my two won't be there.

[-Maximus-]

If we are going to control/ban something, how about abortion.

A couple thousand kids are killed every day by abortions.

How is that relevant to the discussion?

If a bad choice is made and an object is used in the process to kill someone. Then said object is banned. Logically we must ban all objects that kill due to bad choices.

[2dimes]

Well it's not sanity or lack of targets.

You don't believe that sanity keeps you from shooting up the place instead of posting on the internet?

If I were sane I'd probably get a job. Certainly I have minute bits of sanity. I can tell the difference between little kids and adults.

I don't run over jay walkers basically because it wouldn't be fair to their family. If an adult thinks they can stop a car by walking in front of it they should be proven wrong.

Come to think of it you're right, my sanity is ok. Now how do we get the voluntary manslaughter laws fixed?

[warmonger1981]

Lets be honest guns are made for a person with a sound mind. A gun is made for a person who is trained to use it properly.They should be registered and background checks done. Guns are meant more as a deterent to stop an agressor before they attack you. Not to kill people. Lets be honest guns also kill people by crazy assholes. Unfortunately shit happens. Ive had 2 friends die by guns. It really sucks but a person has a right to hunt for food and protect their family. Thats basic to a person who is self sufficient and doesnt want a village raising his family . We as a country need to be masters of our lives and home. Guns are just a needle in a hay stack compared to the big picture. SOCIETY AS A WHOLE IS SICK. This type of shit didnt happen 100 years ago cause people were more aware of the value of life. Greed and self servicing people have destroyed this country. If a person killes another that person should be dealt with accordingly . Morgan Freeman hit the nail on the head with the media. Look at your satellite or cable menu and look at all the TV shows that show murder, rape, steeling, gossip? Humans are feeding their spirits filth and hatred. TV makes this seem normal after generations of watching it. If we want to fix this problem we should of started 100 years ago . This will never get fixed if people ,and how we view life, is not changed. As for guns the same government that wants to take guns from law abiding citizens is the same government that smuggels guns to other countries to kill. Whats the difference?? Or funding wars. Hell if there was no money then it would be harder to aquire materials to make them WMDs. There will always be violence bottom line.no matter from what weapon.

[HapSmo19]

Reading the pro gun ownership posts here makes me feel like I've stepped into a paralell universe.I'm so relieved I don't live amongst such people,you really scare me,honestly.So carry on and good luck with your sacred 2nd amendment rights,and I'll pick up the debate again in a few weeks when the next bunch of small children is massacred,at least my two won't be there.

Ah, yes. Thailand, where your children are either safe at work or protected by their pimps.

[chang50]

Lets be honest guns are made for a person with a sound mind. A gun is made for a person who is trained to use it properly.They should be registered and background checks done. Guns are meant more as a deterent to stop an agressor before they attack you. Not to kill people. Lets be honest guns also kill people by crazy assholes. Unfortunately shit happens. Ive had 2 friends die. It really sucks but a person has a right to hunt for food and protect their family. Thats basic to a person who is self sufficient and doesnt want a village raising his family . We as a country need to be masters of our lives and home. Guns are just a needle in a hay stack compared to the big picture. SOCIETY AS A WHOLE IS SICK. This type of shit didnt happen 100 years ago cause people were more aware of the value of life. Greed and self servicing people have destroyed this country. If a person killes another that person should be dealt with accordingly . Morgan Freeman hit the nail on the head with the media. Look at your satellite or cable menu and look at all the TV shows that show murder, rape, steeling, gossip? Humans are feeding their spirits filth and hatred. TV makes this seem normal after generations of watching it. If we want to fix this problem we should of started 100 years ago . This will never get fixed if people ,and how we view life, is not changed. As for guns the same government that wants to take guns from law abiding citizens is the same government that smuggels guns to other countries to kill. Whats the difference?? Or funding wars. Hell if there was no money then it would be harder to aquire materials to make them WMDs. There will always be violence bottom line.no matter from what weapon.

Your country was less violent 100 years ago???Seriously??When lynchings were commonplace,when the genocide of the native peoples had barely ended?When the rule of law only had a foothold in large areas of what was known as the wild west and vigilantism was rife?Just around the corner there was the gangsterism of the prohibition era with mass murder in cities like Chicago.Wow,seriously?

[chang50]

Reading the pro gun ownership posts here makes me feel like I've stepped into a paralell universe.I'm so relieved I don't live amongst such people,you really scare me,honestly.So carry on and good luck with your sacred 2nd amendment rights,and I'll pick up the debate again in a few weeks when the next bunch of small children is massacred,at least my two won't be there.

Ah, yes. Thailand, where your children are either safe at work or protected by their pimps.

Yet for all it's faults it's preferrable to a country where so many think as you do.

[HapSmo19]

Reading the pro gun ownership posts here makes me feel like I've stepped into a paralell universe.I'm so relieved I don't live amongst such people,you really scare me,honestly.So carry on and good luck with your sacred 2nd amendment rights,and I'll pick up the debate again in a few weeks when the next bunch of small children is massacred,at least my two won't be there.

Ah, yes. Thailand, where your children are either safe at work or protected by their pimps.

Yet for all it's faults it's preferrable to a country where so many think as you do.

So, in other words, your visa was denied.

[chang50]

Reading the pro gun ownership posts here makes me feel like I've stepped into a paralell universe.I'm so relieved I don't live amongst such people,you really scare me,honestly.So carry on and good luck with your sacred 2nd amendment rights,and I'll pick up the debate again in a few weeks when the next bunch of small children is massacred,at least my two won't be there.

Ah, yes. Thailand, where your children are either safe at work or protected by their pimps.

Yet for all it's faults it's preferrable to a country where so many think as you do.

So, in other words, your visa was denied.

For where?I've never been denied a visa for any country.

[warmonger1981]

I meant it as more of a regular ma and pa family of god. Not a crazy president who killed Indians, remember he wrote his own version of the Bible. As for Chicago gangsters that was out of greed. Lynchings happen everywhere and how massive were they??? Those are examples yes but a majority of human kind wants peace. An army doesnt speak for the majority of people. Killing was for a cause wether it be right or wrong now days its a hobby.

[rdsrds2120]

An intensity of media/pop culture interest in one nation and general media/pop culture disinterest in other nations often magnifies problems. When Britney ODs on coke it's covered on TMZ. When the guy in the trailer park down the street ODs on coke it isn't. For instance -

- From 2002 to 2012, 26 people were killed* in Finland during spree shootings. The population of Finland is 5.4 million. In other words, 4.8 per 1 million Finns were killed in spree shootings. Firearms regulation in Finland is considered Restrictive by the University of Sydney School of Public Health.

- From 2002 to 2012, 99 people were killed** in the U.S. during spree shootings. The population of USA is 314 million. In other words, 0.3 per 1 million Americans were killed in spree shootings. Firearms regulation in USA is considered Permissive by the University of Sydney School of Public Health.

* 11 dead in 2008 Kauhajoki shooting, 6 dead in 2009 Sello shooting, 9 dead in 2009 Jokela shooting
** figure is 276 since 1984, assumption of even body count spread over period of years and adjusted to 99 for 2002-2012 time period

Since this does compare population rates, it's not statistically fair to compare the number of people dead, but the number of incidents/per person/per country.

BMO

[chang50]

I meant it as more of a regular ma and pa family of god. Not a crazy president who killed Indians, remember he wrote his own version of the Bible. As for Chicago gangsters that was out of greed. Lynchings happen everywhere and how massive were they??? Those are examples yes but a majority of human kind wants peace. An army doesnt speak for the majority of people. Killing was for a cause wether it be right or wrong now days its a hobby.

The early part of the last century was notorious for the lynching of coloured people in your country,it's easy to look up.The point is there was no halcyon age where people lived in peace and harmony,ever,anywhere.

[puppydog85]

The point is there was no halcyon age where people lived in peace and harmony,ever,anywhere.

I suggest you read De Tocqueville.

[_sabotage_]

American cops are some freaky bastards. They can justify a lot of their bs due to the fact that people have guns. I wish neither the cops nor criminals had guns. When I was 5 i watched from the backseat of our car with my 7 year-old sis as a cop held a shotgun to my mother's back as she was shackled hand and foot face down on the pavement while his partner drove into town to check her record, got back, uncuffed her, have a nice day miss, a tip of the hat to us kids in back.

In general, most people keep guns in a safe and prudent manner. But as seen from study after study, pitting groups against each other forces them to act in ways that they normally wouldn't. America is a police state and is utterly fucked. Stop the drug war, legalise prostitution, end the flows of illegal income, crime decreases, everyone is safer, cops lose their jobs, prison guards lose their jobs, criminals lose their jobs. Their all the same sort of people anyway. Let's do something useful. It's all a cycle.

[chang50]

The point is there was no halcyon age where people lived in peace and harmony,ever,anywhere.

I suggest you read De Tocqueville.

Enlighten me please,in which period does he propose that people lived peacefully and harmoniously,and where?He can't in all seriousness have meant the US at any point in its brief history.

[puppydog85]

Sorry but Democracy in America is rather large and I forget where exactly I found it, if I feel lazy tomorrow I will look it up and find it.

But anyway, he more or less marveled at how in general the crime rate in the us was extremely low and how in some area's it was at zero. Evidence of this he found to be in that most doors in villages were not locked at night, such was the utter lack of fear that they had of being robbed.