Let's talk about mental illness

[InkL0sed]

Also, did you even watch that TED talk? The way he talks about his own depression really shows how it's exactly like any other illness. His sudden inability to function wasn't just a "behavior", and when he received ECT it wasn't just a "behavior" that was being changed. It was a treatment for an illness.

[Metsfanmax]

They are disorders because there is some sort of mechanism in the brain that isn't functioning the way they should.

It isn't a personality quirk. It is a dysfunction. It impairs people's ability to operate normally. Maybe it won't kill them directly, but neither will other chronic diseases necessarily directly kill the sufferer if mistreated. Then again, maybe diabetes will kill the diabetic. And maybe depression will cause a person to commit suicide.

If someone had malfunctioning kidneys that caused them to urinate extremely often, you wouldn't call it a "different behavior" just because it caused them to run to the bathroom all the time, or be terrified of going outside because they could never be sure a bathroom will be nearby. You'd call that an illness, and treat it if you could.

You're still trying to reduce a complex issue by saying "it isn't an illness." Just repeating "it isn't an illness, it's just a behavior" isn't effective. So far, you haven't given me any reason to brush off your opinion as not only being just an opinion, but factually incorrect.

It is possible that many of the things we describe as "mental illnesses" are actually symptoms of some neurological disorder. In that case it is not a mental illness, it is a physical disease just like any other disease (e.g. Parkinson's disease), and it should be treated accordingly, if the patient desires treatment. Psychiatrists are now in the same state that early medicine was: we observed a set of symptoms, and we grouped them together and classified them as a disease if there was a pattern among individuals showing similar symptoms. We then tried various treatments until we found one that soothed the symptoms, but we did not know why the treatments worked; it was a purely phenomenological science. This all changed with the germ theory of disease, when we realized that we could actually point to a physical source for diseases and therefore if we could treat or prevent the source of the symptoms in general, we would have a surefire way to eliminate new diseases as they were discovered. Psychiatry will always be in the state that early medicine was; by construction, it is a purely phenomenological "science." Once we discover the neurological cause of behavioral abnormalities, the problem ceases to become one of psychiatry and becomes one for neurologists. But in that case we are agreeing that the behavior is not the illness; it is a symptom of some defect or lesion in the brain itself.

[Symmetry]

Mets, while I agree with the gist of your take on this- that Mental illness is a far too broad category, I can't agree that it's simple to separate physical illness from mental illness.

What, for example, would be the neurological solution for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

[Metsfanmax]

Mets, while I agree with the gist of your take on this- that Mental illness is a far too broad category, I can't agree that it's simple to separate physical illness from mental illness.

What, for example, would be the neurological solution for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

Some behavioral patterns may be caused by neurological disorders that we do not yet understand or know about; if that's the case, it is only a matter of time, hopefully, before we better understand the brain.

[Symmetry]

Mets, while I agree with the gist of your take on this- that Mental illness is a far too broad category, I can't agree that it's simple to separate physical illness from mental illness.

What, for example, would be the neurological solution for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

Some behavioral patterns may be caused by neurological disorders that we do not yet understand or know about; if that's the case, it is only a matter of time, hopefully, before we better understand the brain.

I would hope that's true, but a lot of mental illness is treatable through psychiatric care. It's always going to be a nebulous area, but it does work for people.

[saxitoxin]

My inner circle of friends, between them, deal with various forms of depression, bipolar disorder, dissociative identity disorder, severe migraine, ADHD, Tourette's, and probably other things too.

environmental causes ... the tightness of emo jeans restricts bloodflow to the brain

advise your friends to wear track pants 3 days a week and they'll go from this -



- to this -



- or possibly even this -

[Lootifer]

That was for the anti-semite call wasnt it.

FINE IM SORRY.

[Army of GOD]

Personally, with little to no legitimate experimental nor anecdotal evidence to support my claim, I feel like a lot of "mental illnesses" are just ill-defined (see what I did thar?). There's a lot of ambiguity, at least in my mind, in saying that someone has ADHD. Here's a list of symptoms from Wiki:

Predominantly inattentive type symptoms as listed by the U.S. National Institute of Mental Health may include:[25]

Be easily distracted, miss details, forget things, and frequently switch from one activity to another
Have difficulty maintaining focus on one task
Become bored with a task after only a few minutes, unless doing something enjoyable
Have difficulty focusing attention on organizing and completing a task or learning something new or trouble completing or turning in homework assignments, often losing things (e.g., pencils, toys, assignments) needed to complete tasks or activities
Not seem to listen when spoken to
Daydream, become easily confused, and move slowly
Have difficulty processing information as quickly and accurately as others
Struggle to follow instructions.

Predominantly hyperactive-impulsive type symptoms may include:[25]

Fidget and squirm in their seats
Talk nonstop
Dash around, touching or playing with anything and everything in sight
Have trouble sitting still during dinner, school, and story time
Be constantly in motion
Have difficulty doing quiet tasks or activities

and also these manifestations primarily of impulsivity:[25]

Be very impatient
Blurt out inappropriate comments, show their emotions without restraint, and act without regard for consequences
Have difficulty waiting for things they want or waiting their turns in games

I mean, this seems pretty damn arbitrary.

Also, at a certain point, don't all the new forms of mental illness sort of trivialize each other? The muscle head has OCD, the hyper kid has ADD, the emo kid is depressed, the drunkard has alcoholism, etc. At a certain point we'll just be a collection of mental illnesses, right?

[Army of GOD]

Also, Sail just played on my Pandora station.

[InkL0sed]

There's a difference between sadness and depression. There's a difference between hyperactivity and ADD. Overdiagnosis is definitely a problem with ADD, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Maybe it seems arbitrary to you, but it really isn't. This is what I'm talking about with the stigmatization of mental illness. Nobody tells cancer patients to just "get over it", or wonders whether cancer even really exists.

[Symmetry]

There's a difference between sadness and depression. There's a difference between hyperactivity and ADD. Overdiagnosis is definitely a problem with ADD, but that doesn't it doesn't exist.

Maybe it seems arbitrary to you, but it really isn't. This is what I'm talking about with the stigmatization of mental illness. Nobody tells cancer patients to just "get over it", or wonders whether cancer even really exists.

And to go back to the point that physical and mental illness aren't always clearly separable, a patient with cancer might well have to deal with depression too. Or a patient with schizophrenia might get cancer. Illness isn't discrete.

[/]

I believe that while it is correct that mental illness itself does not deserve stigma from society, it is important to identify the risks an individual's conditions pose.
Chemical and hormonal imbalances can make a person exhibit the same erratic behaviors as substance abusers, if these episodes cause them to act in a manner that is directly dangerous to society, it is clear that certain measures must be taken.
Society functions on some level of Utilitarian action to exist, if a disease threatens the many; quarantine is necessary until the problem can be controlled.

On the other topic of the correlation between mental and physical health: we should place concern in our own and others' well being for everyone's sake.

There have been certain mental health problems in my family, so I know that first hand; the aspects of stress, fatigue, diet, discipline, hobbies, goals, etc. All have a very strong relation to a person's mental health state at any given time.

[Symmetry]

I believe that while it is correct that mental illness itself does not deserve stigma from society, it is important to identify the risks an individual's conditions pose.
Chemical and hormonal imbalances can make a person exhibit the same erratic behaviors as substance abusers, if these episodes cause them to act in a manner that is directly dangerous to society, it is clear that certain measures must be taken.
Society functions on some level of Utilitarian action to exist, if a disease threatens the many; quarantine is necessary until the problem can be controlled.

On the other topic of the correlation between mental and physical health: we should place concern in our own and others' well being for everyone's sake.

There have been certain mental health problems in my family, so I know that first hand; the aspects of stress, fatigue, diet, discipline, hobbies, goals, etc. All have a very strong relation to a person's mental health state at any given time.

I think you're right in highlighting the behavioral aspect. Mental illness isn't some kind of get-out, but it is a mitigation. I spent a lot of time working with disabled kids when I was a teacher. One of the quickest things you pick up is that few kids have a discrete problem. Rather you're dealing with a set of problems (mental and physical) and learning difficulties. Stuff that works for a kid with ADD doesn't work for the kid with ADD and dyslexia.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Mets' point seems kind of pedantic. I mean you seem to be making a distinction between "real" mental illness (i.e. that which has a basis in the neurological functioning of the mind) and "fake" mental illness(i.e. eccentricity which society wants to squash).
While our understanding of the human brain is so lacking, the distinction will necessarily be subjective. I hope you'll agree though that a line must be drawn somewhere and that the guy in the TED talk and the kid in my OP probably fall on the actual "illness" side.

I agree with the point about the state of psychotherapy, but that really has little to do with this thread( + it is somewhat unfair to compare it to medicine 500 years ago, I think there is some proof that therepy works, whereas medicine 500 years ago had more chances of killing you faster than anything)

Anyway, this here is what I was hoping the thread would focus on:

No its not an illness, but it is something that needs time and effort spent on it in order to improve life for the individual. You can avoid calling it treatment, but at the end of the day that's what it is (and treatment comes in many forms, and yes, a lot of it is pseudoscience as j9b suggests).

What we have to try and get accross is that "treatment" (seeking/getting help) is not something we should view negatively.

I believe that we should invest time and effort into ensuring that there are trained individuals ready to help anyone who seeks treatment to adjust their behavior, as long as we can be sure that such people are not coerced into this. So I agree that we should be actively convincing such people to take us up on treatment, as this is in the best interests of society as a whole (I don't think anyone witnessing what happened in CT can deny this). But we must not coerce an innocent individual into treatment that they do not desire -- that is antithetical to liberty.

What if their abnormalaties is preventative of them realising they need assistance/help? (like in a genuine case, eg the case in the OP).

I think this question is very interesting and important. How do you balance personal freedom with what's best for society(and maybe the person itself).
Let the family decide? Let a doctor decide? On what criteria?

[Lootifer]

I personally think it has to be based on an impact assessment. Treatment becomes involuntary as soon as the impacts go beyond the individual (in terms of direct negative impacts, indirect consequences such as someone having a slightly shitter morning because they have to sit next to someone with tourettes on the bus doesnt count).

[Symmetry]

Mets' point seems kind of pedantic. I mean you seem to be making a distinction between "real" mental illness (i.e. that which has a basis in the neurological functioning of the mind) and "fake" mental illness(i.e. eccentricity which society wants to squash).
While our understanding of the human brain is so lacking, the distinction will necessarily be subjective. I hope you'll agree though that a line must be drawn somewhere and that the guy in the TED talk and the kid in my OP probably fall on the actual "illness" side.

I agree with the point about the state of psychotherapy, but that really has little to do with this thread( + it is somewhat unfair to compare it to medicine 500 years ago, I think there is some proof that therepy works, whereas medicine 500 years ago had more chances of killing you faster than anything)

Anyway, this here is what I was hoping the thread would focus on:

No its not an illness, but it is something that needs time and effort spent on it in order to improve life for the individual. You can avoid calling it treatment, but at the end of the day that's what it is (and treatment comes in many forms, and yes, a lot of it is pseudoscience as j9b suggests).

What we have to try and get accross is that "treatment" (seeking/getting help) is not something we should view negatively.

I believe that we should invest time and effort into ensuring that there are trained individuals ready to help anyone who seeks treatment to adjust their behavior, as long as we can be sure that such people are not coerced into this. So I agree that we should be actively convincing such people to take us up on treatment, as this is in the best interests of society as a whole (I don't think anyone witnessing what happened in CT can deny this). But we must not coerce an innocent individual into treatment that they do not desire -- that is antithetical to liberty.

What if their abnormalaties is preventative of them realising they need assistance/help? (like in a genuine case, eg the case in the OP).

I think this question is very interesting and important. How do you balance personal freedom with what's best for society(and maybe the person itself).
Let the family decide? Let a doctor decide? On what criteria?

In my experience, it's rarely a single party decision. Diagnosis of mental illness usually involves family, doctors, and the individual. With kids, which is where I'm most familiar, it will involve the school too. It's rare for only one party to decide.

[stahrgazer]

Also, at a certain point, don't all the new forms of mental illness sort of trivialize each other? The muscle head has OCD, the hyper kid has ADD, the emo kid is depressed, the drunkard has alcoholism, etc. At a certain point we'll just be a collection of mental illnesses, right?

If you look around at society, present to past, you might agree that we' humans have always been just a collection of mental illnesses. It's just that now, the words to describe them are being added to Webster's.

[Funkyterrance]

...Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder...

I have this!

Seriously though, I think that some mental disorders are physical and some learned behaviors. For instance, I think that Aspies are just people whose parents coddled them as far as social limits are concerned. They aren't exactly spoiled, which is what the kid in the OP sounds like, but to some degree they weren't taught the "facts of life" early enough and developed into a specific personality type. Other things like depression and schizophrenia are actual chemical imbalances in the brain and to allude that these are bullshit conditions is a bit archaic.

[chang50]

...Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder...

I have this!

Seriously though, I think that some mental disorders are physical and some learned behaviors. For instance, I think that Aspies are just people whose parents coddled them as far as social limits are concerned. They aren't exactly spoiled, which is what the kid in the OP sounds like, but to some degree they weren't taught the "facts of life" early enough and developed into a specific personality type. Other things like depression and schizophrenia are actual chemical imbalances in the brain and to allude that these are bullshit conditions is a bit archaic.

You may not know this but Asperger's,is now not necessarily thought of as a disorder but as an orientation in much the same way as homosexuality or heterosexuality is,or indeed lefthandedness is.It can be repressed to an extent and often is for pragmatic reasons,but it is as an essential part of that person as neurotypicalness is to the sub-Aspergers community.There is a thriving online community at WrongPlanet.net for anyone interested to learn more..

[Funkyterrance]

...Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder...

I have this!

Seriously though, I think that some mental disorders are physical and some learned behaviors. For instance, I think that Aspies are just people whose parents coddled them as far as social limits are concerned. They aren't exactly spoiled, which is what the kid in the OP sounds like, but to some degree they weren't taught the "facts of life" early enough and developed into a specific personality type. Other things like depression and schizophrenia are actual chemical imbalances in the brain and to allude that these are bullshit conditions is a bit archaic.

You may not know this but Asperger's,is now not necessarily thought of as a disorder but as an orientation in much the same way as homosexuality or heterosexuality is,or indeed lefthandedness is.It can be repressed to an extent and often is for pragmatic reasons,but it is as an essential part of that person as neurotypicalness is to the sub-Aspergers community.There is a thriving online community at WrongPlanet.net for anyone interested to learn more..

Yeah I didn't know this. The thing is, without any physical evidence it's hard to draw a line in all this grey area. At the risk of sounding ignorant it seems like there are a lot more cases of Aspergers now that it's "cool".
I suppose I don't think there is anything wrong with Asbergers, if it is a legitimate thing at all, but if too many people were "oriented" this way, dysfunction would run rampant. Just as I wouldn't recommend an emo kid as a crisis center employee I wouldn't recommend an aspie as a life coach. Real people with Asbergers, (not the ones you see on TV) just like people with depression, have a very hard time adjusting to everyday life and being productive members of society.

[chang50]

...Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder...

I have this!

Seriously though, I think that some mental disorders are physical and some learned behaviors. For instance, I think that Aspies are just people whose parents coddled them as far as social limits are concerned. They aren't exactly spoiled, which is what the kid in the OP sounds like, but to some degree they weren't taught the "facts of life" early enough and developed into a specific personality type. Other things like depression and schizophrenia are actual chemical imbalances in the brain and to allude that these are bullshit conditions is a bit archaic.

You may not know this but Asperger's,is now not necessarily thought of as a disorder but as an orientation in much the same way as homosexuality or heterosexuality is,or indeed lefthandedness is.It can be repressed to an extent and often is for pragmatic reasons,but it is as an essential part of that person as neurotypicalness is to the sub-Aspergers community.There is a thriving online community at WrongPlanet.net for anyone interested to learn more..

Yeah I didn't know this. The thing is, without any physical evidence it's hard to draw a line in all this grey area. At the risk of sounding ignorant it seems like there are a lot more cases of Aspergers now that it's "cool".
I suppose I don't think there is anything wrong with Asbergers, if it is a legitimate thing at all, but if too many people were "oriented" this way, dysfunction would run rampant. Just as I wouldn't recommend an emo kid as a crisis center employee I wouldn't recommend an aspie as a life coach. Real people with Asbergers, (not the ones you see on TV) just like people with depression, have a very hard time adjusting to everyday life and being productive members of society.

Aspies compare their experience to being born on the wrong planet so yes they do have an extremely hard time in so many ways unimaginable to NT's.Their higher than average levels of intelligence only exacerbates their frustration,so please do not doubt it's legitamacy,people are just being recognised more as societies progress in their understanding.

[Funkyterrance]

Aspies compare their experience to being born on the wrong planet so yes they do have an extremely hard time in so many ways unimaginable to NT's.

I think this a dangerous way to view Aspies, either by themselves or others as it implies some sort of mystic characteristic. They are just people.

[chang50]

Aspies compare their experience to being born on the wrong planet so yes they do have an extremely hard time in so many ways unimaginable to NT's.

I think this a dangerous way to view Aspies, either by themselves or others as it implies some sort of mystic characteristic. They are just people.

It refers to feeling totally out of step or alienated from others they cannot easily empathise with as they typically do not recognise non verbal cues, as if they were literally born on the wrong planet,nothing glamorous like you describe,indeed there is some evidence Aspies find it more difficult to believe in mystic entities or the supernatural in general.

[Symmetry]

...Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder...

I have this!

Seriously though, I think that some mental disorders are physical and some learned behaviors. For instance, I think that Aspies are just people whose parents coddled them as far as social limits are concerned. They aren't exactly spoiled, which is what the kid in the OP sounds like, but to some degree they weren't taught the "facts of life" early enough and developed into a specific personality type. Other things like depression and schizophrenia are actual chemical imbalances in the brain and to allude that these are bullshit conditions is a bit archaic.

You may not know this but Asperger's,is now not necessarily thought of as a disorder but as an orientation in much the same way as homosexuality or heterosexuality is,or indeed lefthandedness is.It can be repressed to an extent and often is for pragmatic reasons,but it is as an essential part of that person as neurotypicalness is to the sub-Aspergers community.There is a thriving online community at WrongPlanet.net for anyone interested to learn more..

Yeah I didn't know this. The thing is, without any physical evidence it's hard to draw a line in all this grey area. At the risk of sounding ignorant it seems like there are a lot more cases of Aspergers now that it's "cool".
I suppose I don't think there is anything wrong with Asbergers, if it is a legitimate thing at all, but if too many people were "oriented" this way, dysfunction would run rampant. Just as I wouldn't recommend an emo kid as a crisis center employee I wouldn't recommend an aspie as a life coach. Real people with Asbergers, (not the ones you see on TV) just like people with depression, have a very hard time adjusting to everyday life and being productive members of society.

The latest edition of the manual for psychiatry took aspergers off as a diagnosis, preferring instead to put it on spectrum of autism.

[chang50]

The latest edition of the manual for psychiatry took aspergers off as a diagnosis, preferring instead to put it on spectrum of autism.[/quote]

Indeed it is often referred to as high functioning autism,as Aspies are quite often outstanding in their chosen fields.