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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Mon May 13, 2013 2:47 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:For the +3 for each capital held, I believe I made a mistake and it should be +3 Autodeploy on each capital. Oliver and/or Tanarri may remember.


isaiah, this is bad and maybe why so much of the info in the thread is contradictory. Please, form now on, treat this map like it is yours, not theirs. Decide on what you want to do. This would never of been posted in fractured or USA 2.1.

I am happy to plough on though as I cannot see any major problems.

Here are some assumptions and questions from me and you will see why it has taken me a long time.
Labs assault all basic research, in turn assault its advanced research.
Why the high neutrals. From the map itself, mines, these give +1 for every symbol and basic research. But you need to go through 35 neutrals to get it. And then deep mining is another 70 neutrals to double basic. Is there a bonus I am missing? Just looking at the map this seems to be high.

You hold a capital +3 and homeland +6. Is that +6 overall with the 3 auto deploy or +9 deployable.

In all actuality, this map is Oliver's, TacKTix was just doing the graphics for it, then he quit CC, and I took over with his permission. That is why I mentioned Oliver and Tanarri. Tanarri because he has been following this map from day 1, and Oliver because this was his idea.

For the capitals and Homeland I think the +3 auto and +6 deployable is the correct way. As for the neutrals, IMO, I think they are too high, I haven't found where they were discussed, so can we reduce them a tad bit. Maybe this:
Advanced Researches
Doomsday Device --> 100
Open Conscription --> 75
Deep Mining --> 55
Mobilized Amy --> 50
Top Secret Facility --> 45
Basic Researches
Sabotage --> 40
Mining --> 30
Secret Conscription --> 30
Propaganda & National Pride --> 20
Standing Army --> 15

Looking at Propaganda, I think that 20n is going to be way too many for the return of investment. You have to go through 20 neutrals for a max of 10?? If you get all 6 capitals the game is over via the losing condition. Maybe this needs to be lowered down to 5 or 10 neutrals to see a return on it.

I'm now thinking that all the neutral values need to come down even more. Some of them won't come into play because the number of neutrals and the payback from the research is way too much. Yes we do need to make the researches cost something to get, and at the same time they need to provide a little bit of a payback.

Thoughts? Comments??
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon May 13, 2013 3:59 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Guys, gameplay is never going to get everyone onto the same page. I see that a lot of you have started discussing this again so it might be wise to take a step back and strip this map of the GP stamp. I have had a look at some of the aspects of the map and have asked isaiah to talk me through the map. One of the problems this map has now is that their are so many trying to express what they want and after so many years of being in production, new ways have come along and new players with thoughts.

Going to rehash some information here as the thread has lots of contradictory information from different map makers and players.

I am going to assume all neutrals are correct as of now. But only beta will get them correct.
show: neutrals

Starting positions. Code these as a max of one please. Will make foggy games far more interesting. FOW will also become the default setting for this map as well.

+3 for every capital held, is this auto deploy of deployable?

-=- Tanarri -=- post.
Dealing with the nukes, I am inclined to leave it as it is as I like the way nukes change maps, but that is just me. A way back needs to be added. A simple capital assaults Labs will do it.
Normal - 10 troops
Secret Conscription - 20 troops
Open Conscription - 30 troops

This set up is better. I disagree with the 100%/50% bump. I look at it like you get a 200% bump at the end. But Tanarri makes a good point about OC needing to be nicer to hold. (Neutrals)


Koontz, regarding the neutrals on the map at least, I provided Isaiah with the information of how they used to be and he agreed they should be how they used to be. I haven't seen anyone with thoughts to the otherwise, so I believe they're going to be changed to the originals?

I agree with coding the max start positions as 1, I also think it will make things much more interesting. It also solves the issue regarding owning two tech trees and having to cram the wording for that in the legend.

The +3 for the capital is deployable. I think if you look far enough back it was autodeploy at some point, back when laboratories were also auto deploy, but it was decided it would be better to give the player better control over whether their troops went to research or the land territories.

For the conscription techs, either way it's a 200% bump by the end. My concern is the advanced techs should offer a bigger net bonus than the basic techs, particularly since they cost so much more than they do.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon May 13, 2013 4:04 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:For the +3 for each capital held, I believe I made a mistake and it should be +3 Autodeploy on each capital. Oliver and/or Tanarri may remember.


isaiah, this is bad and maybe why so much of the info in the thread is contradictory. Please, form now on, treat this map like it is yours, not theirs. Decide on what you want to do. This would never of been posted in fractured or USA 2.1.

I am happy to plough on though as I cannot see any major problems.

Here are some assumptions and questions from me and you will see why it has taken me a long time.
Labs assault all basic research, in turn assault its advanced research.
Why the high neutrals. From the map itself, mines, these give +1 for every symbol and basic research. But you need to go through 35 neutrals to get it. And then deep mining is another 70 neutrals to double basic. Is there a bonus I am missing? Just looking at the map this seems to be high.

You hold a capital +3 and homeland +6. Is that +6 overall with the 3 auto deploy or +9 deployable.


We took a really hard long look at the neutral values when they were first created. I believe they were calculated on the basis of a reasonable per turn bonus amount times 4 or 5, depending on the tech. The theory here is that you could see a return on investment within 5 rounds on average and after that you would be stronger than anyone not researching. The mining bonus should be +2, which is why you've noted the large issue with the bonus there.

The capital should be +3 deployable with homeland being an extra +6 deployable, for a total of 9 deployable. We figured if by around 4-5 you could have 12 deployable (9 from capital/homeland, 3 from standard bonus) then you would have enough to reasonably defend your capital and research some as well.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon May 13, 2013 8:11 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:For the +3 for each capital held, I believe I made a mistake and it should be +3 Autodeploy on each capital. Oliver and/or Tanarri may remember.


isaiah, this is bad and maybe why so much of the info in the thread is contradictory. Please, form now on, treat this map like it is yours, not theirs. Decide on what you want to do. This would never of been posted in fractured or USA 2.1.

I am happy to plough on though as I cannot see any major problems.

Here are some assumptions and questions from me and you will see why it has taken me a long time.
Labs assault all basic research, in turn assault its advanced research.
Why the high neutrals. From the map itself, mines, these give +1 for every symbol and basic research. But you need to go through 35 neutrals to get it. And then deep mining is another 70 neutrals to double basic. Is there a bonus I am missing? Just looking at the map this seems to be high.

You hold a capital +3 and homeland +6. Is that +6 overall with the 3 auto deploy or +9 deployable.

In all actuality, this map is Oliver's, TacKTix was just doing the graphics for it, then he quit CC, and I took over with his permission. That is why I mentioned Oliver and Tanarri. Tanarri because he has been following this map from day 1, and Oliver because this was his idea.

For the capitals and Homeland I think the +3 auto and +6 deployable is the correct way. As for the neutrals, IMO, I think they are too high, I haven't found where they were discussed, so can we reduce them a tad bit. Maybe this:
Advanced Researches
Doomsday Device --> 100
Open Conscription --> 75
Deep Mining --> 55
Mobilized Amy --> 50
Top Secret Facility --> 45
Basic Researches
Sabotage --> 40
Mining --> 30
Secret Conscription --> 30
Propaganda & National Pride --> 20
Standing Army --> 15

Looking at Propaganda, I think that 20n is going to be way too many for the return of investment. You have to go through 20 neutrals for a max of 10?? If you get all 6 capitals the game is over via the losing condition. Maybe this needs to be lowered down to 5 or 10 neutrals to see a return on it.

I'm now thinking that all the neutral values need to come down even more. Some of them won't come into play because the number of neutrals and the payback from the research is way too much. Yes we do need to make the researches cost something to get, and at the same time they need to provide a little bit of a payback.

Thoughts? Comments??


The reasoning behind the neutrals that are currently laid out is, as I mentioned above, that the researches should be able to be paid back within 3-5 rounds (I mentioned 4 previously, then realized I was incorrect) depending on the tech and mostly whether it's based on something which can be broken or not. If memory serves, the reasoning for the various techs went as follows:

Standing Army and Mobilized Army cannot be broken, hence they should be 5 round return. Standing Army is +3 x 5 rounds for 15 neutral. Mobilized Army is +12 troops x 5 rounds for 60 neutral.

For Mining, there are 40 mines. Divide this by 6 players and round down for a total of 6 mines each player on average. 6 mines x +2 each = 12 troops if you own your portion of the mines. +12 troops x 3 round pay back since they can be broken = 36. Round down to 35 for even number sake. Deep Mining offers to double the bonus for double the neutral. I think part of the reasoning here was also you'd need to defend single territories and hence we considered that there would be one troop going to defend the mine and one troop to deploy elsewhere, unless someone wanted to leave it undefended. With Deep Mining you'd still have the one troop to defend and have three troops to drop elsewhere, hence the doubling of the neutral value.

For National Pride, it's a +6 bonus x 3 round payback since it can be broken and rounded up for round number sake to 20.

Conscription techs I can't remember, but what makes sense to me is 174 land territories divide by 6 players = 29 land territories a piece, rounded up to 30 for ease of calculation and roundedness sake. Secret Conscription would give an extra net of +1 per 6 territories, so 5 reinforcements for the 1/6 of land territories. Given the sheer potential of the tech, I'd place it at 5 round turn around if you own 1/6 of the land, which should be 25. I'm sure we had some reason for it being 30 at the time, but I'd totally agree it should be lowered to 25 if we were going to stick with the original +1 per 2 territories. If we're going with the newly proposed bonus, then it would be an additional +1 per 3 territories, meaning +10 bonus. This means the Secret Conscription shoudl be put at 50 for a 5 round return at 1/6th of the map. I think this would make it too high, so perhaps 40 neutral, which is still removes it from being a playable tech to aim for earlish in the game. Hence one of my concerns about the bonus switching to +2 per 3 regions from +1 per 2 regions.

For Open Conscription, we figured by that point if you were researching the tech, you'd probably own 1/3 of the land or roughly 60 territories. Using the original bonus system, the net bonus for Open Conscription is +1 per 2 territories or +30 troops. 30 troops x 3 round payback is 90 neutral. Alternatively, if you owned 1/5th of the regions, it would be about a 5 round payback and if you owned 1/4 of the regions, it'd be around a 4 round payback. Using the newly proposed bonus, the net gain for Open Conscription would be +1 per 3 regions as well, which is the same net gain as the newly proposed Secret Conscription. Hence arguably the neutral should be around the same. You'd still have to defend the same number of territories, which is an arguement towards the neutral being higher, but I'd think if someone were going for conscription techs, they'd take all the territories in a section of the map and only be defending maybe 4-5 spots, meaning the neutral shouldn't be that much higher. Again, this is one of my concerns for the newly proposed bonus, since the neutral values wouldn't be that far apart between basic and advanced tech.

For Sabotage, I can't remember how we determined the amount. I think it should remain fairly high, since it lets you potentially easily break everyone's +2 and +4 bonuses.

Propaganda I've always thought was a bit high for the neutral and thought 15 would be better suited. I think if it’s going to be +2 per capital, then presuming 20 places it at a 5 round payback if you own two capitals. Considering it’s a bonus which can be broken (though not easily, as I imagine there’d be significant stacks on capitals) I think it’s more reasonable for it to have a 4 round payback, which 15 neutral would put it just under.

For TSFs, I’m not entirely sure what we were thinking when we stuck them at 45. I wonder if that neutral was decided on back when you could only attack the advanced techs from TSFs. Which brings up an interesting point now that conditional borders are around. Would we want to make owning the TSF a prerequisite to being able to attack the advanced techs? I have mixed feelings about this… I think it would go along with the theme nicely, since they’re the advanced laboratories, but I also think it complicates the map further, which I’m not sure how I feel about. Thoughts? If we decide to keep things the way they are now, then I’d recommend lowering the TSFs to no higher than 30, since Standing/Mobilized Army are 5 round paybacks and they’re deployable anywhere.

Doomsday Device really needs to be at least 200 neutral. It’s already sitting at less than a 3 round payback, which makes it the least expensive by ratio tech there is. It’s also meant as an effective game ending tech, so it shouldn’t be set too low. At 100 you’d almost get all of the troops you spent taking it (on average 84 or so?) back within a round.

I think that all covers all techs. These are just how I recall it after a year and a half. I got pretty involved in the calculations and sorting it all out, which was a pretty big mess to sort through for the few of us (Oliver, myself, and one or two others) who delved into it deeply. I’d be happy to hear other’s thoughts on all of this, since discussion I feel always makes things better. I’ve provided all the information as a background for what had been discussed before so that everyone doesn’t have to sort through a dozen or two pages worth of back and forth and contradictions to figure out what we settled on the last time around.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon May 13, 2013 10:43 pm

Oliver, presuming you're still reading the thread, below are some notes I took last year regarding the XML. I think some of it may not apply any longer, but I'm copying and pasting the original post for you to capture the notes for future reference since they were 10 pages buried at this point.

-------------------------------------------------

- The mines need to have all 40 included in the code, since it's possible to have 40 mines and not own 75% of the board

- Override tags should be included within the 'Mines with Mining' continents to override the 'Mines' continents so that it shows in BOB cleaner. Likewise, Deep Mining continents should include 'Mines with Mining' continents as requirements and override them as well, providing the full +4 per mine bonus instead of stacking two +2 bonuses. This would add a bit of bulk to the XML so I think it's an optional touch for the time being, but should be added after the XML update if nothing else.

- Zeppelin Strikes need to be renamed to Sabotage

- The borders on the tech territories should be removed except for the basic techs which need to attack their advanced techs. This needs to be fixed to prevent forting from occuring from the techs back to the laboratory. This is especially important for TSFs and Doomsday, as those autodeploys shouldn't be able to be used to directly research techs.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby koontz1973 on Mon May 13, 2013 11:09 pm

isaiah40 wrote:and I took over with his permission.

You took over, so please treat the map like it is yours. Too many cooks now on this one. ;) Go with what you think and we can all debate that.
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:For the conscription techs, either way it's a 200% bump by the end. My concern is the advanced techs should offer a bigger net bonus than the basic techs, particularly since they cost so much more than they do.

Advanced tech always costs more to do. But the end results may not always provide more. If you look at conscription, secret and open, (why this way, would open be more fitting for the start of the war?) the first set should always provide more as it is the start. Later on, you have less resources to call on. But I agree, the neutrals can come down a tad to make them more pleasing.
isaiah40 wrote:the +3 auto and +6 deployable is the correct way.

Please put onto the map.
isaiah40 wrote:Looking at Propaganda, I think that 20n is going to be way too many for the return of investment. You have to go through 20 neutrals for a max of 10?? If you get all 6 capitals the game is over via the losing condition. Maybe this needs to be lowered down to 5 or 10 neutrals to see a return on it.

Looking at all the neutrals versus all the bonuses, you are right. But when you consider it is +2 per capital, not till mid-late game will any player hold more than 1 capital.

Secret conscription - 30 neutrals - bonus of +1 for every 2 regions held.
Standing army - 15 neutrals - +3
National pride - 20 neutrals - +6 if holding 2 regions (Lab and capital).
Mining - 35 neutrals - +1 for every mine held.
Sabotage - 50 neutrals - no bonus
Propergander - 20 neutrals + 2 per capital.

All of these neutrals are way to high.
Secret conscription - 30
    Still 30 might be too high or it will never get taken but this one we can wait for beta and see how it works.
Standing army - 15
    Again good as is but consider a 10 neutral.
National pride - 20
    This is low. You have only 20 neutrals, 5 more than standing army, but double the bonus. Lower the bonus to a +4 or raise the neutral to 30.
Mining - 10
    Ten is a good number. Remember, you also need to attack the mines and hold them and you only get a +1 for them. So you need to hold one mine for 10 goes to get your investment back.
Sabotage - 30
    10 lower than yours but even at 30, it will only get taken late in esc games or a lucky nukes games. All other games will be ignored.
Propergander - 6
    You only get +2 per capital. lots of neutrals to fight through for no real bonus. How many times does a player in the feudal games attack a neutral castle for the auto deploy? Very rarely and this is going to be the same. You will get you +1 and that is that. The only time this will really come into play is larger games and then only an extra two.

isaiah40 wrote:Advanced Researches
Doomsday Device --> 100
Open Conscription --> 75
Deep Mining --> 55
Mobilized Amy --> 50
Top Secret Facility --> 45

Doubling the bonuses does not mean doubling the neutrals.
Doomsday Device --> 100
Open Conscription --> 50 (80 in total)
Deep Mining --> 20 (30 in total)
Mobilized Amy --> 25 (40 in total)
Top Secret Facility --> 45
(TSF, can any be attacked? So if my homeland is SW, can I attack SE TSF?) If I can doomsday becomes redundant as no one will go for it.)

All neutrals for the bonuses you get seem high. If I can knock a person out of the game by taking their capital away from them, why would I grab even the most basic research?
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Tue May 14, 2013 11:44 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:For the conscription techs, either way it's a 200% bump by the end. My concern is the advanced techs should offer a bigger net bonus than the basic techs, particularly since they cost so much more than they do.

Advanced tech always costs more to do. But the end results may not always provide more. If you look at conscription, secret and open, (why this way, would open be more fitting for the start of the war?) the first set should always provide more as it is the start. Later on, you have less resources to call on. But I agree, the neutrals can come down a tad to make them more pleasing.

For the naming of the conscription techs, I believe the idea was in the beginning you're secretly trying to conscript troops, hence getting a smaller number without raising alarms too much. Further in the war, as things progress, you start openly conscripting troops to get as many troops as you can without caring who knows.
koontz1973 wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:Looking at Propaganda, I think that 20n is going to be way too many for the return of investment. You have to go through 20 neutrals for a max of 10?? If you get all 6 capitals the game is over via the losing condition. Maybe this needs to be lowered down to 5 or 10 neutrals to see a return on it.

Looking at all the neutrals versus all the bonuses, you are right. But when you consider it is +2 per capital, not till mid-late game will any player hold more than 1 capital.

The entire point behind Propaganda was for it to be a mid-late game boost once you took another capital. The name itself even hints towards it, since normally it's the enemy's population you would use propaganda on to convince them that you're the better leader.

koontz1973 wrote:Secret conscription - 30 neutrals - bonus of +1 for every 2 regions held.
Standing army - 15 neutrals - +3
National pride - 20 neutrals - +6 if holding 2 regions (Lab and capital).
Mining - 35 neutrals - +1 for every mine held.
Sabotage - 50 neutrals - no bonus
Propergander - 20 neutrals + 2 per capital.

All of these neutrals are way to high.
Secret conscription - 30
    Still 30 might be too high or it will never get taken but this one we can wait for beta and see how it works.
Standing army - 15
    Again good as is but consider a 10 neutral.
National pride - 20
    This is low. You have only 20 neutrals, 5 more than standing army, but double the bonus. Lower the bonus to a +4 or raise the neutral to 30.
Mining - 10
    Ten is a good number. Remember, you also need to attack the mines and hold them and you only get a +1 for them. So you need to hold one mine for 10 goes to get your investment back.
Sabotage - 30
    10 lower than yours but even at 30, it will only get taken late in esc games or a lucky nukes games. All other games will be ignored.
Propergander - 6
    You only get +2 per capital. lots of neutrals to fight through for no real bonus. How many times does a player in the feudal games attack a neutral castle for the auto deploy? Very rarely and this is going to be the same. You will get you +1 and that is that. The only time this will really come into play is larger games and then only an extra two.

For secret conscription, I agree it's a bit high if we're using +1 per 2 regions and should be dropped to 20-25. If we're using the newer +2 per 3 regions then I think the 30 should be good. In the end, I think beta will be the only thing that will provide clarity to most of these neutrals though.

Standing army I think would be too small at 10 neutral, since it's a permanent unbreakable bonus. Maybe 12 if you really wanted to encourage people to take it early game? At least then it's a 4 round payback for a permanent bonus

National Pride I think you misunderstood. The bonus is dependent on holding the entire homeland, not just the capital and the laboratory. The neutral value difference between Standing Army and National Pride takes into account that you need to defend the bonus and it can be broken. Breaking the bonus would effectively take away 12 reinforcements from an opponent (+6 regular homeland bonus and +6 national pride bonus). This makes for a reasonably high incentive to at least break a player's homeland if you're fighting them already. I think the +6 for 20 neutral is good as it is all considered. If one does end up getting changed, I think the neutral being raised is the better option, since the +6 bonus is an effective doubling of the regular homeland bonus.

Mining should be +2 per mine held. It's been +2 for a year and a half or more and only since the last update was it changed to +1 out of the blue. I'm not sure if what happened for that change, but that's why the neutral value seems so out of whack. Really at +1 per mine it doesn't make that aspect of the game anywhere near as interesting. There are so many mines around the board that holding 4-5 of them should be relatively easy, providing a +8-10 bonus. I think 35 is reasonable for a neutral given this. If it gets lowered at all, I don't think it should be any lower than 30.

Sabotage I believe I mentioned before that I'm not sure why we had it at 50. I think having it either at 30 or 40 would be reasonable to start beta off with. One thing to consider is that it's purpose is such that it becomes more useful mid game when everybody's probably dropping 20-30 troops per round. Even if it were 40 that's only one or two rounds worth of troops investment for the possibility to easily bring everybody else on the map down by +2 or +4 per mine. Say half the mines are taken on the map, even at basic mining that would give the ability to easily interfere with 40 troops per turn worth of reinforcements. Mid to late game this tech will prove to be very valuable.

Propaganda at 6 is way to low. I agree it may be able to use being brought down to 15 or so to make it a bit more attractive as a potential secondary boost for early'ish game, but it's really going to be more useful later in the game. Considering it's more meant as a mid-late game tech, one possible solution to making it a more viable tech would be to raise the bonus per capital, perhaps as high as +4 per capital. If we set it at +3 per capital, then I think it could stay at 20, and it would effectively be doubling the troops you get from owning a capital. If we had it at +4 per capital, then I think raising it to 25 would be good. Heck, we could even do a +5 per capital for 30 troops, making it an even more attractive mid to late game tech. The intention behind the tech really was to offer a player who's already taken out another player a way of getting extra troops. I've always thought the +2 per capital bonus for a mid to late game tech was pretty small.

koontz1973 wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:Advanced Researches
Doomsday Device --> 100
Open Conscription --> 75
Deep Mining --> 55
Mobilized Amy --> 50
Top Secret Facility --> 45

Doubling the bonuses does not mean doubling the neutrals.
Doomsday Device --> 100
Open Conscription --> 50 (80 in total)
Deep Mining --> 20 (30 in total)
Mobilized Amy --> 25 (40 in total)
Top Secret Facility --> 45
(TSF, can any be attacked? So if my homeland is SW, can I attack SE TSF?) If I can doomsday becomes redundant as no one will go for it.)

All neutrals for the bonuses you get seem high. If I can knock a person out of the game by taking their capital away from them, why would I grab even the most basic research?

Doomsday Device really needs to be more than 100. 100 is crazy low for a +75 bonus. 200 for a bonus that size really is pretty decent as it is already.

Open Conscription, if we're using +1 for 2 regions for Secret Conscription, should be higher than 50. It is a late game tech and the bonus one will get from owning it along with 1/4 of the board (not unreasonable for late game, I'd think) will be quite large. I think 75 is possibly okay, but 50 just seems really small. If we're going with +2 troops per 3 regions for Secret Conscription, then I think 50 is reasonable, since the net gain is less.

Deep Mining, again the original Mining bonus should be +2, for Deep Mining giving a +4 total bonus per mine. I think 20 is waaaay too low for a neutral in this case. Bringing it down a bit from 70 where it's at now may be in order, though I think considering it's a mid-late game tech, a player would likely own 6-8 mines minimum if they're researching this. That's total bonus of 24-32 troops for a total of 105 neutrals, which really isn't too bad.

Mobilized Army for 25 is again way too low. That's a permanent +12 bonus. Granted 60 may be a bit high, so perhaps lower it to 50 like Isaiah was suggesting, but 25 is just way way too low.

Top Secret Facility should be lower than 45, unless we decide to make owning it a requirement for getting advanced techs as I threw out there as a potential suggestion in a previous post. Presuming we don't decide to go that round, TSF should be no higher than 30, presuming we're keeping Standing Army at 15 neutral and Mobilized Army at 60 neutral. If they're getting changed to say 12 neutral and 50 neutral (a 4 round payback), then TSF should possibly be changed to 25 neutral as well.

And no Koontz, TSFs can only be attacked by the matching player. All techs can only be attacked by the matching player ever. There are a couple techs that can bombard out to opposing players territories (Sabotage and Doomsday) but nothing can attack another player's tech.

Regarding your question about why you would research the most basic tech when you can knock a player out by taking out their capital: Because by the time you're able to reach that other player, they've probably already researched a couple basic techs for long enough that they can match your troop count by the time you reach them and then are dropping more than you per turn when they counter attack. In a 2 player game, I could see a player winning by taking out the other player's capital before they could properly build up their research, which would be great to have as a strategy for the map. But really, any 3+ player game I think it would be suicide not to research at least a bit (conscription techs if nothing else) since even if you could reach someone and kill them before they got their investment back, the other players who are researching will have grown to powerful for you to fight.

To date at least, the map has been designed with no cards or flat rate being the ideal card settings. An escalating game with a higher number of players will likely blow all the balancing and make a lot of things not worth taking. But if you consider any other standard map, you run into the same sort of situation where taking bonuses doesn't make any sense. I realize the neutrals seem high at first, but one thing to consider is during a no cards or flat rate game, people will easily be dropping 25-30 troops per turn by round 10-15 and will only go up drastically from there. If you bring the neutral counts down too much, then people will be able to research a new tech every turn, which I don't think should happen. It should take at least 2-3 rounds to research a new tech and at least 3 rounds to see benefit from it. This way everybody won't own the same techs, which adds to the gameplay, and there is a certain level of risk to putting the investment into the research since you leave yourself weaker for a few rounds, which will give opponents a chance to eliminate you before you start becoming all the more stronger than they are.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Tue May 14, 2013 11:47 pm

Now that I think about it, Sabotage may have been a bit higher since it also offers the strategic advantage of knowing what areas everyone is in. Since it bombards all the mines, during a fog of war game, you would have the benefit of being able to see who owns what mines and hence what direction a player is attacking in when they're taking territories. It also adds the possiblity of a player intentionally avoiding mines if they want to move covertly mid-late game.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Tue May 14, 2013 11:58 pm

Thank you Tanarri!! Now it is all making sense. I think we can leave all the neutrals where they are now, and see how beta goes. The only question now is, how do we allow a player to regain his/her Lab??
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby koontz1973 on Wed May 15, 2013 1:15 am

Tanarri, you make a lot of sense and I agree that most, if not all neutrals need to stay as is. But the problem I have is this.
To date at least, the map has been designed with no cards or flat rate being the ideal card settings. An escalating game with a higher number of players will likely blow all the balancing and make a lot of things not worth taking.

And this is a problem. Escalating games are hugely popular. 2 player games may account for 50% of games, but that still leaves 50% not 2 players. So a lowering of the neutrals seems logical to me. How about lowering them to isaiahs levels (lower than yours, higher than mine) now and leave them to beta to change again. The whole point of the map is the tech so to leave out the tech for around half of all games seems silly.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed May 15, 2013 11:36 am

isaiah40 wrote:Thank you Tanarri!! Now it is all making sense. I think we can leave all the neutrals where they are now, and see how beta goes. The only question now is, how do we allow a player to regain his/her Lab??


Personally I like the idea of allowing the researches to attack directly the labs directly. I do think TSFs and Doomsday should not be allowed to attack the labs though. TSFs as the bonus is meant as a freebie bonus for research and should not be allowed to contribute to Sabotage or Doomsday bombardings. Doomsday is meant to be a destructive weapon and the +75 you get from it should not be allowed to be put towards research. Other than those, I think it makes reasonable sense and is the best solution/comprimise gameplay wise to allow the other researches to attack the labs.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed May 15, 2013 11:57 am

koontz1973 wrote:Tanarri, you make a lot of sense and I agree that most, if not all neutrals need to stay as is. But the problem I have is this.
To date at least, the map has been designed with no cards or flat rate being the ideal card settings. An escalating game with a higher number of players will likely blow all the balancing and make a lot of things not worth taking.

And this is a problem. Escalating games are hugely popular. 2 player games may account for 50% of games, but that still leaves 50% not 2 players. So a lowering of the neutrals seems logical to me. How about lowering them to isaiahs levels (lower than yours, higher than mine) now and leave them to beta to change again. The whole point of the map is the tech so to leave out the tech for around half of all games seems silly.


isaiah40 wrote:Advanced Researches
Doomsday Device --> 100
Open Conscription --> 75
Deep Mining --> 55
Mobilized Amy --> 50
Top Secret Facility --> 45
Basic Researches
Sabotage --> 40
Mining --> 30
Secret Conscription --> 30
Propaganda & National Pride --> 20
Standing Army --> 15


Above are the values that Isaiah suggested. I can agree with reducing most of these and think three's a couple that could be reduced even further. Really the only value I wouldn't be happy putting out into Beta that Isaiah suggested is Doomsday, since +75 for 100 neutrals is way too low. Here's the values I'd suggest, keeping those which Isaiah proposed which I think would work and changing those I think could use some tweaking but (aside from Doomsday) would be happy to let out into Beta as is:

Advanced Researches
Doomsday Device --> 200
Open Conscription --> 75
Deep Mining --> 55
Mobilized Amy --> 50
Top Secret Facility --> 30
Basic Researches
Sabotage --> 40
Mining --> 30
Secret Conscription --> 30 -- See below
Propaganda & National Pride --> 20
Standing Army --> 15

As I mentioned in previous posts, for Secret Conscription, if we're going with the original +1 per 2 regions, I think it should be lowered slightly, perhaps to 25, just to make it a bit more attractive to take a bit earlier in the game. If we're going with the newer +2 per 3 regions, then 30 is a good spot for Beta. I still believe in the +1 per 2 region bonus much more than the +2 per 3 region, but if others feel differently, then it's not a point I'll be terribly concerned over.

Again as previously mentioned, I'm not sure why TSFs were placed so high and think it may be from previous outdated gameplay features. It makes no sense for an autodeploy that's stuck in research to be a worth a higher round payback than Standing Army/Mobilized Army which both you can deploy anywhere. Hence the 30 neutral, which is +6 bonus x 5 round payback, which is the same as the army techs.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Wed May 15, 2013 1:45 pm

Now if Oliver could post his thoughts as well since he is the one who originally started this map.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby OliverFA on Thu May 16, 2013 5:40 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:and I took over with his permission.

You took over, so please treat the map like it is yours. Too many cooks now on this one. ;) Go with what you think and we can all debate that.

I 100% agree about that ;) I am happy to provide my feedback but it's Isaiah's map now.

Ok, about everything that has been said, Tanarri has everything right. He has a very good memory and a very good reasoning. I will comment on all the issues, whith opinions which are almost similar like Tanarri's

- The spirit of the map is making a Civilization-like map. In Civilization you "can't attack" researchs. For this reason the Research part and the Geographic part have to be completely separated. To avoid the nuclear spoils issue let's just allow researches to attack the lab.

- Starting positions: Again the spirit of the map is to mirror a starting civ/nation that grows from almost nothing to fully developed. For that reason it makes a lot more sense to limit starting positions to 1 per player

- Research costs (aka the neutrals in the researches): Exactly as Tanarri said, they are supposed to pay back in 5 turns. We made detailed calculations about those values. I will look for the Excel file with those calculations and post it here again.

- Doomsday Device: This one is probably the more difficult to find the right neutral value, because if it is too low games finish too early and if it's too high players will never research it. I think we nailed the sweet spot like it is now.

- Neutrals in the geographic map: Again the values are what Tanarri said. I think that those values are good even if they seem too high. The way I picture the map at the begining it will be slow to conquer territories but as techs get researched the pace will accelerate. I would leave those values as they are and in case they were about to change I would raise them.

- Autodeploy or not in capitals: I have no opinion about that.

I think I commented all the subjects that have been discussed in the 2 previous pages, but if I forgot something please let me know.

Having said that, it's pretty likely that neutral values will have to be partially adjusted after the first beta games, when we have actual gameplay feedback.

And provided that we are re-discussing rules again: If I may re-open a debate, I have never been very happy with the Sabotage tech (the one that can bombard mines). IMHO is a pretty weird tech. Do you think we can find a better tech for its slot?

PS: I will post the research costs calculations as soon as I have time to search whithin my files.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu May 16, 2013 11:56 pm

OliverFA wrote:And provided that we are re-discussing rules again: If I may re-open a debate, I have never been very happy with the Sabotage tech (the one that can bombard mines). IMHO is a pretty weird tech. Do you think we can find a better tech for its slot?


I've felt similiarly about Propaganda in the past. It's always seemed like such a minor bonus for a mid game tech and no matter what we tried to think of for it, it never seemed to work out particularly well. At least it's balanced at this point, but a +4 or +6 bonus (owning 2-3 capitals) mid game when you're already dropping 30 guys a turn seems like a pretty minor bonus.

As far as Sabotage goes, I actually thought we found a good way to deal with this tech that added a nice gameplay element to it. Thematically I like to think of the "troops" that get added to the research as recruiting spies to go blow up mines. The tech itself could be seen as researching the appropriate explosives to be able to send out spies to destroy the mines in the first place.

That being said, if anyone can think of any different techs that could be made, I'd be happy to discuss and possibly change either Sabotage or Propaganda for it.

One new thing we could possibly look at is the fact that conditional borders is now available, 3+ years after this map began development. I wonder if there's any way they could be put to use.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby ender516 on Fri May 17, 2013 7:23 am

I don't have a great thematic justification for this, but it came to mind when it was mentioned that Propaganda is a minor bonus. I'm not even sure something like it isn't already being done.

With the addition of collections to the XML, it is a good deal simpler to award bonuses which vary with the number of territories held. So Propaganda could vary its bonus based on the number of territories in the zones where the capital is held. Of course, the more complex this is, the harder it is to spell it out in the legend.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Fri May 17, 2013 9:48 am

ender516 wrote:I don't have a great thematic justification for this, but it came to mind when it was mentioned that Propaganda is a minor bonus. I'm not even sure something like it isn't already being done.

With the addition of collections to the XML, it is a good deal simpler to award bonuses which vary with the number of territories held. So Propaganda could vary its bonus based on the number of territories in the zones where the capital is held. Of course, the more complex this is, the harder it is to spell it out in the legend.


Thanks for mentioning this Ender. I wonder if having it be +1 per enemy homeland territory would work as a bonus. I think stated as such (or something close) in the description is clear what the bonus is and it would provide the potential for a +8 per complete homeland captured. This wouldn't be the greatest mid-game bonus, but after you've taken out two enemies, +16 bonus is decent enough. The only problem with this (and I think it's already been mentioned/discussed) is that it ends up making an enemy homeland worth more than your homeland w/National Pride, which thematically doesn't make sense. From a gameplay perspective I think it's a good idea though, as it encourages the Conquer part of the map.

Alternatively +6 per enemy homeland would make it equal to the National Pride bonus and thematically could be considered as if you used Propaganda to turn your enemy citizens into fanatical believers in your leadership.

One last idea I had, which I think I like the best, would to be make it +1 per homeland territory. This would solve it making enemy territories be worth more. Thematically it makes sense since you can always use propaganda on your own people to make them firmer believers in your cause and also the more territories you own of a homeland, the more people you can send the propaganda to. It also would provide a sizable bonus for the mid-game. The neutral value would have to be fairly high for a basic tech, but I don't see that as a problem. If it were set at say 50, it would allow it to be a 3 round payback when you've taken an enemy capital and would also provide an alternate tech to research early-mid game to gain a slight advantage by owning your own homeland territories, though it would be a bit limited due to a 6 round payback at that point.

Any thoughts on all these?
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Fri May 17, 2013 11:02 am

I think Sabatoge is a good idea. Can we have it also bombard the advanced mining and basic mining?

I'm thinking that we can have the Basic Research can only assault its Advanced Research and own Lab. As for the enemy homelands being worth more than your own homeland, I don't see it because if you also hold your own homeland you would receive +8 with National Pride as well.

I have more thoughts, but I'll post them later.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Fri May 17, 2013 4:39 pm

isaiah40 wrote:I think Sabatoge is a good idea. Can we have it also bombard the advanced mining and basic mining?

I'm thinking that we can have the Basic Research can only assault its Advanced Research and own Lab. As for the enemy homelands being worth more than your own homeland, I don't see it because if you also hold your own homeland you would receive +8 with National Pride as well.

I have more thoughts, but I'll post them later.


I'm not clear what you mean by Sabotage bombarding advanced and basic mining. Are you talking about your own mining techs or the enemy's mining techs? Either way, I don't see how it would make sense from a gameplay or theme point of view. If you mean your own techs, then I don't see how owning or allocating resources towards Sabotage should/could affect the research of mining techs. If you mean enemy techs, then I can see how it could make sense from a theme point of view, but I strongly disagree with allowing anything to affect a person's research once it's been gotten.

I think having it so the basic researches can assault the labs makes sense and is easy to describe. I also wonder if "A basic research borders its advanced one and lab" or something similar may be another way to go. This would allow troops to move from the advanced tech back to the basic tech, in case someone owns an advanced tech and loses their lab and all basic researches through nukes. Wording it like that also automatically excludes TSFs and Doomsday from forting backwards as well, since they don't have basic researches. If we wanted to make things a bit more clear, we could also reword the TSF statement to " A TSF only bombards all its homeland's researches" and "The Doomsday Device only bombards all land regions". This would prevent people from thinking that since the labs assault TSF and Doomsday, that they should be able to assault them back. Having the "Labs assault only its own basic researches, TSF, and Doomsday Device" specify assaults instead of borders also helps with this, since "borders" implies a two way attack.

National Pride is only worth an extra +6 (total of 12) for owning your own homeland. What I had suggested for Propaganda (which is what I'm guessing you're referring to) was +1 per (enemy) homeland territory, which would offer an extra +8 for the full homeland. If you apply this bonus to only an enemy's homeland, that means an enemy homeland would be worth 14 with Propaganda and your own only worth +12 with National Pride. Hence my suggestion that if we were to change Propaganda to +1 per homeland territory in general, instead of specifying enemy homeland, then an enemy homeland would be worth +14 with Propaganda and your own homeland would be worth +20 with National Pride and Propaganda. Personally I like this option the best if the neutral of Propaganda were to be raised to 50, which is a 3 round payback if you own a second homeland.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby OliverFA on Sat May 18, 2013 6:19 am

I have found the Excel with the calculations. You can download it and play yourselves, or edit it in the Excel webapp

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=E ... rokB7-g5BU
















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Research and Conquer - Civilization meets Conquer Club

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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat May 18, 2013 9:58 am

OliverFA wrote:I have found the Excel with the calculations. You can download it and play yourselves, or edit it in the Excel webapp

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=E ... rokB7-g5BU


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Thanks for posting this Oliver. I think it's worth mentioning that this is a spreadsheet that was created during the middle of gameplay discussions a couple years ago and hence has a few older bonus references in it that have been changed since. Just so people don't get confused about the current bonuses. Things that jump out include:

  • Mining Techs are listed as being +1/+2
  • National Pride is listed as being +1 per 2 territories (4 total)
  • Propaganda is listed as being +4 per enemy homeland
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat May 18, 2013 11:08 am

One thing I just noticed is there is now only 36 mines on the map instead of the original 40, which will affect the numbers as well, unless the other 4 mines are put back in. I think one other thing it would be useful to do, once we've got a version of the map with the neutral values for all territories, would be to change the positions around for the mines. The north section of the map has 17 mines, the south east section has 11, and the southwest section has 8. I think having them unbalanced is great, but I think it'll turn out that the north section has all easier territories to get (for conscription techs) and a heavier proportion of mines as well. I think it would be great to arrange it in such a way that pursing different tech trees makes more sense dependent on where you start.

For example, if the north has more territories that are easier to conquer (since they're farther from homelands), then it would be more conducive to the conscription techs. If the southeast has the highest proportion of mines, then it's more conducive to mining techs.

If we wanted to, we could even intentionally make the neutrals higher or lower around certain homelands and areas of the map. If say the north was set up with very low neutrals (mostly 1-2s, maybe 3s around the homelands) then it would encourage the use of conscription techs and since there's minimal protection, it may encourage quicker eliminations between the two north homelands and hence encourage the use of Propaganda.

If another one of the two areas of the map, let's say southeast for arguement sake, had average neutrals (5s around homelands, 2-3s around the others), it would encourage more average expansion. If we stuck a notably higher proportion of mines there, then it would encourage the use of the mining techs.

Then the remaining area, southwest arguably, we could have higher neutral values (10s around homelands, 6-8s for the others), that would encourage the use of army techs, propaganda as a support tech, Doomsday, and possibly Sabotage if they felt like messing with people while sitting.

I don't know how I feel about messing with the neutrals like suggested above, it's just something I thought of that I figured I'd throw out there to see how other people thought. In the end I think it would end up forcing people too much in one direction or another, at least the higher neutrals around one set of homelands, since it would make it prohibitive to do anything other than sit there and research. I do like the idea of maybe slightly decreasing the neutrals around the north to encourage conscription and increasing the number of mines around one or both of the southern areas. I like the idea of encouraging people to go in one direction or another with techs depending on homeland, since I think it adds to the strategy, but forcing seems too much.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sun May 19, 2013 10:29 pm

I noticed a while back that there was an uneven number of bridges per area section and I've been looking the bridge positions over here and there. I think we need to remove some of the bridges, to create some chokepoints between the different land areas. I'd like to propose the following bridges be removed:

SG1-WD2
SC11-WD4
EA1-MB2
EC1-MA3

This would leave two bridges per river section, one near the middle of the map to provide central access around the map and another on the outer side of the map, to allow players an opportunity to attack the neighbouring homeland that's across the river and to do so through more of a back entrance or flank to avoid earlier detection to those going through the middle to see where everyone's coming from.

It also provides a situation where there's only four bridges to defend per land section later in the game. This also makes there be a point to having a river/impassable running through the middle of the map between land masses. As it is now, you can cross two of the three river sections at almost any point along them.

Thoughts?
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Sun May 19, 2013 11:05 pm

I can work with this idea!.

I'm working on getting all the starting positions, neutrals etc. together and posted in the first post so it will be easier to see.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby RedBaron0 on Sun May 26, 2013 4:35 pm

:pokes isaiah: Since the primary focus seems to have switched back to gameplay, I changed the button to the old simple green button. I don't want to burden you with having to make a GFX update when you are clearly working on gameplay. I won't pull the stamp, but lets just say is provisional, till all parties are satisfied. And we'll poke at ian when you think you're good just to make sure we're all good to focus back on graphical type updates.
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