Post Any Evidence For God Here

[universalchiro]

I have a related question. I'm reluctant to ask really, cos I don't want to be the cause of too many things going on at once- b ut I think it's pertinant to this point.
Say that someone had somehow never heard of Christianity (unlikely these days I know). For thought-experiment reasons, you have limited communication with them. how much of the Bible would it be essential to get to them, and what bits would you begin with? You can assume for the thought experiment that they'll be easy to convert.
The question is for any Christian.

If I couldn't use a Bible in this scenario, then Romans 1:18- gives some clarity on how to teach someone about God without His written word.
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

So without the bible, if someone had never heard of the God of the Bible, then believers of God demonstrate God by His creation.

Thank you for this question.

[jonesthecurl]

So God and all the rules are obvious just from looking around you?

[waauw]

So God and all the rules are obvious just from looking around you?

maybe you need a special kind of goggles to see them

[universalchiro]

So God and all the rules are obvious just from looking around you?

God is knowable just by seeing His creation. So wait a minute, I thought Jesus was the way to the Father. How does someone worship Jesus when He doesn't come on the scene till 2000 years ago? Prior to Jesus revealing some of what He is 2000 years ago, He was a hidden mystery (Colossians 2:2-3). There was no distinguishing between God the Father & God the Son. Jesus revealed He was the I AM that spoke face to face with Moses (John 8:58), Jesus revealed He walked & talked with Abraham (John 8:56). Jesus revealed that He is the King of the Jews (Luke 23:3). Jesus revealed Moses wrote about Him (John 5:39 & 46).

Before Jesus was known as Jesus, Israel called Him Lord, Yahweh, Adonia. They didn't know that the Jesus they crucified was the Lord that led them out of Egypt, was the Lord that appeared to Moses, was part of the Elohim (God) that spoke everything into existence (Colossians 1:15-17 & John 1:1-18)

All the laws: God's means of sharing the rules is through His word. But all the rules are to demonstrate how far we are from a Perfectly Holy God. And how justified God is to judge us. That's where the good news of the gospel comes into play: That same God that is so demanding, so Holy & so justified to judge us (wages of sin is death), loves us so much that He took His Only Son, crucifying Him to a cross. Don't be mistaken, it was by mankind's evil that God put His son on the cross, God was fully in control & with designed purpose nailed His Son to the cross. Why? To pay in full all the sins of those who believe. God will withhold (mercy) what we deserve (eternal death), & give us salvation that we don't deserve (grace).

How is someone to have faith in God apart from His word? That is why missionaries have circled the globe to get the word out. Whether salvation comes from reading the Bible or hearing a believer speak the word of God, salvation comes from the word of God. Not apart from the word of God. By either means : written or verbal, it is the word of God that changes the heart. All of creation came about by the word of God, so that's why if someone can't read the Bible, nor hear missionary teach of God, then creation itself is enough to demonstrate God, because the Word (Jesus) of God spoke all into existence & therefore all mankind is without excuse. We are judged by what we know & heard. If someone has never read the Bible, Nor heard a missionary, then they are judged based on creation. That's enough for them to accept God or reject God. & if they reject God as creator, their punishment will be less than those who read & heard the Bible & still rejected.

[Viceroy63]

So it is a choice that people make to accept the truth or to deny it, and Gods judgment will be just and fair and even merciful.

[BigBallinStalin]

So God and all the rules are obvious just from looking around you?

God is knowable just by seeing His creation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy

See the criticism section.

[Woodruff]

So God and all the rules are obvious just from looking around you?

God is knowable just by seeing His creation.

If that's the case, then he really is a cruel bastard of a God.

[Woodruff]

So it is a choice that people make to accept the truth or to deny it

Of course it is.

and Gods judgment will be just and fair and even merciful.

Except you seem to have it backward.

[crispybits]

So it is a choice that people make to accept the truth or to deny it, and Gods judgment will be just and fair and even merciful.

This combination has always confused me.

Justice is the state where people get what they deserve for their actions

Mercy is the state where people get shown leniency for bad behaviour (i.e. they don't get what they deserve for their actions)

Thw two are incompatible. It's like saying God will show both interest and apathy.

[Viceroy63]

So it is a choice that people make to accept the truth or to deny it, and Gods judgment will be just and fair and even merciful.

This combination has always confused me.

Justice is the state where people get what they deserve for their actions

Mercy is the state where people get shown leniency for bad behaviour (i.e. they don't get what they deserve for their actions)

Thw two are incompatible. It's like saying God will show both interest and apathy.

Ahhh! But that is exactly what it is all about.

We as human beings like to think that we are basically good people with such good potentials within our hearts when in fact we are evil, filthy and vile creatures worthy of death and not life. But what we deserve has already been received at the hands of the Lord for us in our place.

Christ; as God in the flesh, went in our place to suffer that which we deserve. Because He is God, he could die in the place of all of His creation. And because he was not worthy of death, Death had no hold on him and 3 days later (The only sign that He would give us that he is God in the flesh), He simply rose again from death. From non-existence.

It's as if you commit a crime worthy of death but the judge sets you free and in your place the judge goes off to be executed instead. In this case the Judge is Jesus. The requirements of justice have been met and mercy given towards one who did not deserve mercy.

So when God grants mercy to those who deserve none it is because Jesus Christ paid for our sins the death penalty that we deserve. But this is not something that is given to all humans even though it covers all human sins. But only repentant humans receive this gift of life or mercy from the deserved death penalty hanging over the scum bags that is humanity.

So in judgement to dish out the death penalty in the lake of fire to those who choose not to believe the evidence of God, is just. And to repentant believers in God's Christ, He is merciful. The fact that the death penalty is also an eternal death and not an eternal life in a state of suffering and turmoil in a supposed "Hell" is also merciful.

That unrepentant humans are simply snuffed out of existence in the lake of fire rather than to be allowed to continue the current state of existence where people all around the world suffer because of sin, is merciful. God is not going to punish people with eternal death in the lake of fire because they choose not to believe; People choose not to believe because humanity is basically evil and deserving of eternal death in the first place.

I don't know how better to explain this at this time. But God is merciful even with the worst of us if only that one would submit to God and believe with all of his heart. If only he turns from the dark side. Jesus then turns to the Father and claims him stating, I died for this one also. I paid for his crime and I declare him free from the death penalty. Both the requirements of Justice and punishment are met and mercy freely distributed to those who God will's.

[chang50]

[chang50]

So it is a choice that people make to accept the truth or to deny it, and Gods judgment will be just and fair and even merciful.

This combination has always confused me.

Justice is the state where people get what they deserve for their actions

Mercy is the state where people get shown leniency for bad behaviour (i.e. they don't get what they deserve for their actions)

Thw two are incompatible. It's like saying God will show both interest and apathy.

Ahhh! But that is exactly what it is all about.

We as human beings like to think that we are basically good people with such good potentials within our hearts when in fact we are evil, filthy and vile creatures worthy of death and not life. But what we deserve has already been received at the hands of the Lord for us in our place.

Christ; as God in the flesh, went in our place to suffer that which we deserve. Because He is God, he could die in the place of all of His creation. And because he was not worthy of death, Death had no hold on him and 3 days later (The only sign that He would give us that he is God in the flesh), He simply rose again from death. From non-existence.

It's as if you commit a crime worthy of death but the judge sets you free and in your place the judge goes off to be executed instead. In this case the Judge is Jesus. The requirements of justice have been met and mercy given towards one who did not deserve mercy.

So when God grants mercy to those who deserve none it is because Jesus Christ paid for our sins the death penalty that we deserve. But this is not something that is given to all humans even though it covers all human sins. But only repentant humans receive this gift of life or mercy from the deserved death penalty hanging over the scum bags that is humanity.

So in judgement to dish out the death penalty in the lake of fire to those who choose not to believe the evidence of God, is just. And to repentant believers in God's Christ, He is merciful. The fact that the death penalty is also an eternal death and not an eternal life in a state of suffering and turmoil in a supposed "Hell" is also merciful.

That unrepentant humans are simply snuffed out of existence in the lake of fire rather than to be allowed to continue the current state of existence where people all around the world suffer because of sin, is merciful. God is not going to punish people with eternal death in the lake of fire because they choose not to believe; People choose not to believe because humanity is basically evil and deserving of eternal death in the first place.

I don't know how better to explain this at this time. But God is merciful even with the worst of us if only that one would submit to God and believe with all of his heart. If only he turns from the dark side. Jesus then turns to the Father and claims him stating, I died for this one also. I paid for his crime and I declare him free from the death penalty. Both the requirements of Justice and punishment are met and mercy freely distributed to those who God will's.

It's truly sad you can't see how sick and twisted this is because I'm sure you are sincere.

[Viceroy63]

Ahhh! But that is exactly what it is all about.

We as human beings like to think that we are basically good people with such good potentials within our hearts when in fact we are evil, filthy and vile creatures worthy of death and not life. But what we deserve has already been received at the hands of the Lord for us in our place.

Christ; as God in the flesh, went in our place to suffer that which we deserve. Because He is God, he could die in the place of all of His creation. And because he was not worthy of death, Death had no hold on him and 3 days later (The only sign that He would give us that he is God in the flesh), He simply rose again from death. From non-existence.

It's as if you commit a crime worthy of death but the judge sets you free and in your place the judge goes off to be executed instead. In this case the Judge is Jesus. The requirements of justice have been met and mercy given towards one who did not deserve mercy.

So when God grants mercy to those who deserve none it is because Jesus Christ paid for our sins the death penalty that we deserve. But this is not something that is given to all humans even though it covers all human sins. But only repentant humans receive this gift of life or mercy from the deserved death penalty hanging over the scum bags that is humanity.

So in judgement to dish out the death penalty in the lake of fire to those who choose not to believe the evidence of God, is just. And to repentant believers in God's Christ, He is merciful. The fact that the death penalty is also an eternal death and not an eternal life in a state of suffering and turmoil in a supposed "Hell" is also merciful.

That unrepentant humans are simply snuffed out of existence in the lake of fire rather than to be allowed to continue the current state of existence where people all around the world suffer because of sin, is merciful. God is not going to punish people with eternal death in the lake of fire because they choose not to believe; People choose not to believe because humanity is basically evil and deserving of eternal death in the first place.

I don't know how better to explain this at this time. But God is merciful even with the worst of us if only that one would submit to God and believe with all of his heart. If only he turns from the dark side. Jesus then turns to the Father and claims him stating, I died for this one also. I paid for his crime and I declare him free from the death penalty. Both the requirements of Justice and punishment are met and mercy freely distributed to those who God will's.

It's truly sad you can't see how sick and twisted this is because I'm sure you are sincere.

It's even more sad that you can not explain or expand on that statement because you seem so intelligent, I'm sure.

[chang50]

Ahhh! But that is exactly what it is all about.

We as human beings like to think that we are basically good people with such good potentials within our hearts when in fact we are evil, filthy and vile creatures worthy of death and not life. But what we deserve has already been received at the hands of the Lord for us in our place.

Christ; as God in the flesh, went in our place to suffer that which we deserve. Because He is God, he could die in the place of all of His creation. And because he was not worthy of death, Death had no hold on him and 3 days later (The only sign that He would give us that he is God in the flesh), He simply rose again from death. From non-existence.

It's as if you commit a crime worthy of death but the judge sets you free and in your place the judge goes off to be executed instead. In this case the Judge is Jesus. The requirements of justice have been met and mercy given towards one who did not deserve mercy.

So when God grants mercy to those who deserve none it is because Jesus Christ paid for our sins the death penalty that we deserve. But this is not something that is given to all humans even though it covers all human sins. But only repentant humans receive this gift of life or mercy from the deserved death penalty hanging over the scum bags that is humanity.

So in judgement to dish out the death penalty in the lake of fire to those who choose not to believe the evidence of God, is just. And to repentant believers in God's Christ, He is merciful. The fact that the death penalty is also an eternal death and not an eternal life in a state of suffering and turmoil in a supposed "Hell" is also merciful.

That unrepentant humans are simply snuffed out of existence in the lake of fire rather than to be allowed to continue the current state of existence where people all around the world suffer because of sin, is merciful. God is not going to punish people with eternal death in the lake of fire because they choose not to believe; People choose not to believe because humanity is basically evil and deserving of eternal death in the first place.

I don't know how better to explain this at this time. But God is merciful even with the worst of us if only that one would submit to God and believe with all of his heart. If only he turns from the dark side. Jesus then turns to the Father and claims him stating, I died for this one also. I paid for his crime and I declare him free from the death penalty. Both the requirements of Justice and punishment are met and mercy freely distributed to those who God will's.

It's truly sad you can't see how sick and twisted this is because I'm sure you are sincere.

It's even more sad that you can not explain or expand on that statement because you seem so intelligent, I'm sure.

The whole idea of redemption is morally repugnant to me,where's the justice?Someone like a Hitler can sincerely repent and be redeemed,but I and millions of others cannot have this despite being morally superior to Hitler by any standard because we have different opinions about the nature of reality?Sick and twisted is being kind,and it really only takes a minimum of intelligence to figure that out..

[Woodruff]

We as human beings like to think that we are basically good people with such good potentials within our hearts when in fact we are evil, filthy and vile creatures worthy of death and not life.

I've found your problem. You hate yourself, so you need someone to tell you what to do so you don't have to feel the blame, so you turn to religion. You really should work on that self-hatred.

For my part, I am basically a good person (with plenty of not-so-good foibles), and I am absolutely not evil, filthy or vile. I do not believe I am worthy of death for any reason. I can't speak for anyone else, of course.

Also, you didn't refute his statement in any way. So...uh...try again. You see, the Bible cannot refute his statement. It is a definatory statement.

[Woodruff]

So it is a choice that people make to accept the truth or to deny it, and Gods judgment will be just and fair and even merciful.

This combination has always confused me.

Justice is the state where people get what they deserve for their actions

Mercy is the state where people get shown leniency for bad behaviour (i.e. they don't get what they deserve for their actions)

Thw two are incompatible. It's like saying God will show both interest and apathy.

Ahhh! But that is exactly what it is all about.

We as human beings like to think that we are basically good people with such good potentials within our hearts when in fact we are evil, filthy and vile creatures worthy of death and not life. But what we deserve has already been received at the hands of the Lord for us in our place.

Christ; as God in the flesh, went in our place to suffer that which we deserve. Because He is God, he could die in the place of all of His creation. And because he was not worthy of death, Death had no hold on him and 3 days later (The only sign that He would give us that he is God in the flesh), He simply rose again from death. From non-existence.

It's as if you commit a crime worthy of death but the judge sets you free and in your place the judge goes off to be executed instead. In this case the Judge is Jesus. The requirements of justice have been met and mercy given towards one who did not deserve mercy.

So when God grants mercy to those who deserve none it is because Jesus Christ paid for our sins the death penalty that we deserve. But this is not something that is given to all humans even though it covers all human sins. But only repentant humans receive this gift of life or mercy from the deserved death penalty hanging over the scum bags that is humanity.

So in judgement to dish out the death penalty in the lake of fire to those who choose not to believe the evidence of God, is just. And to repentant believers in God's Christ, He is merciful. The fact that the death penalty is also an eternal death and not an eternal life in a state of suffering and turmoil in a supposed "Hell" is also merciful.

That unrepentant humans are simply snuffed out of existence in the lake of fire rather than to be allowed to continue the current state of existence where people all around the world suffer because of sin, is merciful. God is not going to punish people with eternal death in the lake of fire because they choose not to believe; People choose not to believe because humanity is basically evil and deserving of eternal death in the first place.

I don't know how better to explain this at this time. But God is merciful even with the worst of us if only that one would submit to God and believe with all of his heart. If only he turns from the dark side. Jesus then turns to the Father and claims him stating, I died for this one also. I paid for his crime and I declare him free from the death penalty. Both the requirements of Justice and punishment are met and mercy freely distributed to those who God will's.

It's truly sad you can't see how sick and twisted this is because I'm sure you are sincere.

Agreed (on both counts).

[Viceroy63]

Ahhh! But that is exactly what it is all about.

We as human beings like to think that we are basically good people with such good potentials within our hearts when in fact we are evil, filthy and vile creatures worthy of death and not life. But what we deserve has already been received at the hands of the Lord for us in our place.

Christ; as God in the flesh, went in our place to suffer that which we deserve. Because He is God, he could die in the place of all of His creation. And because he was not worthy of death, Death had no hold on him and 3 days later (The only sign that He would give us that he is God in the flesh), He simply rose again from death. From non-existence.

It's as if you commit a crime worthy of death but the judge sets you free and in your place the judge goes off to be executed instead. In this case the Judge is Jesus. The requirements of justice have been met and mercy given towards one who did not deserve mercy.

So when God grants mercy to those who deserve none it is because Jesus Christ paid for our sins the death penalty that we deserve. But this is not something that is given to all humans even though it covers all human sins. But only repentant humans receive this gift of life or mercy from the deserved death penalty hanging over the scum bags that is humanity.

So in judgement to dish out the death penalty in the lake of fire to those who choose not to believe the evidence of God, is just. And to repentant believers in God's Christ, He is merciful. The fact that the death penalty is also an eternal death and not an eternal life in a state of suffering and turmoil in a supposed "Hell" is also merciful.

That unrepentant humans are simply snuffed out of existence in the lake of fire rather than to be allowed to continue the current state of existence where people all around the world suffer because of sin, is merciful. God is not going to punish people with eternal death in the lake of fire because they choose not to believe; People choose not to believe because humanity is basically evil and deserving of eternal death in the first place.

I don't know how better to explain this at this time. But God is merciful even with the worst of us if only that one would submit to God and believe with all of his heart. If only he turns from the dark side. Jesus then turns to the Father and claims him stating, I died for this one also. I paid for his crime and I declare him free from the death penalty. Both the requirements of Justice and punishment are met and mercy freely distributed to those who God will's.

It's truly sad you can't see how sick and twisted this is because I'm sure you are sincere.

It's even more sad that you can not explain or expand on that statement because you seem so intelligent, I'm sure.

The whole idea of redemption is morally repugnant to me,where's the justice?Someone like a Hitler can sincerely repent and be redeemed,but I and millions of others cannot have this despite being morally superior to Hitler by any standard because we have different opinions about the nature of reality?Sick and twisted is being kind,and it really only takes a minimum of intelligence to figure that out..

If you really think that a demon possessed personality that can war on humanity can repent of his sins then you have truly missed the point. If on a very simply level of good and evil and morality, if on the simplest of levels a person wont turn to God then neither will they turn to God when in the final judgment, after a lifetime of denying God.

In the final judgment, no personalities such as a Hitler will be there to repent or make their choice because they have already made it. People such as they will go directly to the third resurrection of the dead which is the resurrection of condemnation. Not the second resurrection. In that second resurrection will be those who are genuinely deceived and Ignorant of the truth. They will make their choice then.

But I say again, if a person has too much pride in their hearts to accept the truth in the here and now, then how much more hard a time will they have in the judgment when all is revealed and we all learn to be humble because we all will learn that in this life, we really were shit balls. All of us. And I am not trying to insult anyone but it is the truth whether you accept it or not.

"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?'
-I Peters 4:18

Do you think that Hitler was not once a child and did he not have a past just like any other child. Evil is in the heart of all humanity. History has shown us that if it were not Hitler then it would have been some one else. Perhaps you or I if given the same set of circumstances. If not Genghis Khan than Kublai Khan would do just as well if not better. But heads would roll and the hell with the rest and with God! In the same situation such as them, could anyone simply just walk away when we will absolutely sell our souls for Bread and water or riches and fame?

It is never all of a sudden but in stages. One of those stages would be to accept that Humans evolved out of stones and mud rather than to accept the simple truth that God created us. Common sense just went out the window with the baby and the bath water, Voila! And just like that we took a stand against God. And then perhaps another stage may be to receive money to do something like for example lie on your taxes. And just like that you've made another choice and another stand against God. And little by little it goes building up until a sweet little child becomes a World dominating leader and murderer of millions.

Maybe one day some one will put a gun to your head and ask you to decide, "I kill you, or the person next to you; You decide?" Most Probably you would say, "Kill him please, I have a wife and children," and just like that you've made another choice against God. And little by little perhaps you find yourself in a position where you can rule the world but you may have to kill some Jews to do it as part of the deal? Maybe even kill 11 million innocent none combatant civilians, but what would it matter so long as you ruled the world? How do you repent from something like that if you can't even stop cheating on your taxes to save a couple of hundred dollars? The answer; You don't.

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
-Mark 8:36

Humanity suffers from Wars and the diseases of wars because it lust after pleasures instead of the well being of others. Do you think that some one who tells me that I am stupid for believing in a God really cares about his neighbor? People don't want to be told that they are wrong or ignorant of the truth because they want to stay in the dark pleasuring themselves and believing that they are, "All that Good!" and don't care about what anyone else suffers so long as it is not them. Yet it is this very mentality that feeds the Hitler in all of us which makes up humanity.

If humanity were not evil then why do we prepare for war (If not us then some other humans will)? Why would America lie about weapons of mass destruction in a country that America helped to establish and know very well that there are no weapons of mass destruction there? To invade a country for it's oil perhaps? Or perhaps just payback for what they did in Kuwait when they set afire all the oil there? Well what about all those innocent lives that we made to suffer because of our lust for oil and power? Is it any wonder that America is hated by so many Muslim countries? Is this not all a result of human sins because we are evil? Muslims and Christians and non believers alike?

All of humanity is basically evil and in need of redemption. Save that soul who thinks he is basically a good person with some minor faults because never did he have a chance to rule the world even if it meant being by nature, a murdering godless human.

Just because you don't believe in God is not what makes one worthy of the death penalty. But because human nature is basically evil and deserves the death penalty is what drives us away from God and towards theories like those of "Evolution."

"From whence [come] wars and fightings among you? [come they] not hence, [even] of your lusts that war in your members?"
-James 4:1

[chang50]

Viceroy, Just to be 100% clear here,are you saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Hitler,or any fanatical tyrant,after a lifetime of evildoing to sincerely repent and accept Jesus as their personal saviour?If so,how do you know this?Where is the cut off point in terms of evil?

[BigBallinStalin]

We as human beings like to think that we are basically good people with such good potentials within our hearts when in fact we are evil, filthy and vile creatures worthy of death and not life.

Viceroy, I hope you recover from your failures.

[Woodruff]

Ahhh! But that is exactly what it is all about.

We as human beings like to think that we are basically good people with such good potentials within our hearts when in fact we are evil, filthy and vile creatures worthy of death and not life. But what we deserve has already been received at the hands of the Lord for us in our place.

Christ; as God in the flesh, went in our place to suffer that which we deserve. Because He is God, he could die in the place of all of His creation. And because he was not worthy of death, Death had no hold on him and 3 days later (The only sign that He would give us that he is God in the flesh), He simply rose again from death. From non-existence.

It's as if you commit a crime worthy of death but the judge sets you free and in your place the judge goes off to be executed instead. In this case the Judge is Jesus. The requirements of justice have been met and mercy given towards one who did not deserve mercy.

So when God grants mercy to those who deserve none it is because Jesus Christ paid for our sins the death penalty that we deserve. But this is not something that is given to all humans even though it covers all human sins. But only repentant humans receive this gift of life or mercy from the deserved death penalty hanging over the scum bags that is humanity.

So in judgement to dish out the death penalty in the lake of fire to those who choose not to believe the evidence of God, is just. And to repentant believers in God's Christ, He is merciful. The fact that the death penalty is also an eternal death and not an eternal life in a state of suffering and turmoil in a supposed "Hell" is also merciful.

That unrepentant humans are simply snuffed out of existence in the lake of fire rather than to be allowed to continue the current state of existence where people all around the world suffer because of sin, is merciful. God is not going to punish people with eternal death in the lake of fire because they choose not to believe; People choose not to believe because humanity is basically evil and deserving of eternal death in the first place.

I don't know how better to explain this at this time. But God is merciful even with the worst of us if only that one would submit to God and believe with all of his heart. If only he turns from the dark side. Jesus then turns to the Father and claims him stating, I died for this one also. I paid for his crime and I declare him free from the death penalty. Both the requirements of Justice and punishment are met and mercy freely distributed to those who God will's.

It's truly sad you can't see how sick and twisted this is because I'm sure you are sincere.

It's even more sad that you can not explain or expand on that statement because you seem so intelligent, I'm sure.

The whole idea of redemption is morally repugnant to me,where's the justice?Someone like a Hitler can sincerely repent and be redeemed,but I and millions of others cannot have this despite being morally superior to Hitler by any standard because we have different opinions about the nature of reality?Sick and twisted is being kind,and it really only takes a minimum of intelligence to figure that out..

If you really think that a demon possessed personality that can war on humanity can repent of his sins then you have truly missed the point. If on a very simply level of good and evil and morality, if on the simplest of levels a person wont turn to God then neither will they turn to God when in the final judgment, after a lifetime of denying God.

Hitler was demon-possessed? You have documentation for this wild-ass, ridiculous claim, I am sure. Right?

In the final judgment, no personalities such as a Hitler will be there to repent or make their choice because they have already made it.

Wait...what? How do YOU, human, know that Hitler did not repent in his final moments? Are you playing God again?

But I say again, if a person has too much pride in their hearts to accept the truth in the here and now, then how much more hard a time will they have in the judgment when all is revealed and we all learn to be humble because we all will learn that in this life, we really were shit balls. All of us. And I am not trying to insult anyone but it is the truth whether you accept it or not.

You keep talking about humility while utterly failing to use it. It's fascinating, really.

Do you think that Hitler was not once a child and did he not have a past just like any other child. Evil is in the heart of all humanity. History has shown us that if it were not Hitler then it would have been some one else. Perhaps you or I if given the same set of circumstances. If not Genghis Khan than Kublai Khan would do just as well if not better. But heads would roll and the hell with the rest and with God! In the same situation such as them, could anyone simply just walk away when we will absolutely sell our souls for Bread and water or riches and fame?

Is this how the greatness of God is so apparent...because of these things you're talking about here? Because you only seem to be talking about how useless and/or cruel he is.

It is never all of a sudden but in stages. One of those stages would be to accept that Humans evolved out of stones and mud rather than to accept the simple truth that God created us.

Simple truth? A "truth" requires substantial evidence, evidence of a level nearing proof. There is no such thing regarding the existence of any God.

Common sense just went out the window with the baby and the bath water, Voila!

Oh, you finally looked at the stuff you've been typing?

And just like that we took a stand against God. And then perhaps another stage may be to receive money to do something like for example lie on your taxes. And just like that you've made another choice and another stand against God.

God doesn't give a shit if you lie on your taxes. He's too busy dealing with who wins the football games and elections.

And little by little it goes building up until a sweet little child becomes a World dominating leader and murderer of millions.

Yeah, God shouldn't have done that to him.

Maybe one day some one will put a gun to your head and ask you to decide, "I kill you, or the person next to you; You decide?" Most Probably you would say, "Kill him please, I have a wife and children," and just like that you've made another choice against God.

Why is that a choice against God? I thought Christians didn't like suicide?

And little by little perhaps you find yourself in a position where you can rule the world but you may have to kill some Jews to do it as part of the deal? Maybe even kill 11 million innocent none combatant civilians, but what would it matter so long as you ruled the world? How do you repent from something like that if you can't even stop cheating on your taxes to save a couple of hundred dollars? The answer; You don't.

Wow. It's like you have this wondrous ability for bullshit. You should use that to better use...maybe become a carnival huckster.

Humanity suffers from Wars and the diseases of wars because it lust after pleasures instead of the well being of others. Do you think that some one who tells me that I am stupid for believing in a God really cares about his neighbor?

I don't think you're stupid, but I am starting to think that you're dishonest.

People don't want to be told that they are wrong or ignorant of the truth because they want to stay in the dark pleasuring themselves and believing that they are, "All that Good!" and don't care about what anyone else suffers so long as it is not them. Yet it is this very mentality that feeds the Hitler in all of us which makes up humanity.

The Hitler in all of us? You should stop hating yourself. That attitude is a serious problem.

If humanity were not evil then why do we prepare for war (If not us then some other humans will)?

Preparing to defend yourself against someone you expect to attack you is evil? Do you consider Jesus to be evil? Do you consider the Israelites to be evil (actually, as they were largely the aggressors, that might be valid)?

Why would America lie about weapons of mass destruction in a country that America helped to establish and know very well that there are no weapons of mass destruction there? To invade a country for it's oil perhaps? Or perhaps just payback for what they did in Kuwait when they set afire all the oil there? Well what about all those innocent lives that we made to suffer because of our lust for oil and power? Is it any wonder that America is hated by so many Muslim countries? Is this not all a result of human sins because we are evil? Muslims and Christians and non believers alike?

Frankly, America is hated for a fair number of reasons. You depict a couple of them very well with your presence in this thread.

All of humanity is basically evil and in need of redemption.

If this is true (and I don't for a moment believe that it is), this tells me that God is either cruel or evil himself. Possibly both.

Just because you don't believe in God is not what makes one worthy of the death penalty. But because human nature is basically evil and deserves the death penalty is what drives us away from God and towards theories like those of "Evolution."

Stop hating yourself. I thought Christianity was about love? What happened to Jesus' words of love? Start by loving yourself.

[Woodruff]

Viceroy, Just to be 100% clear here,are you saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Hitler,or any fanatical tyrant,after a lifetime of evildoing to sincerely repent and accept Jesus as their personal saviour?If so,how do you know this?Where is the cut off point in terms of evil?

Dude, he knows God. He has the knowledge of God. Even though his Bible tells him he can't. But he does. So it just is, because he said so.

[crispybits]

So it is a choice that people make to accept the truth or to deny it, and Gods judgment will be just and fair and even merciful.

This combination has always confused me.

Justice is the state where people get what they deserve for their actions

Mercy is the state where people get shown leniency for bad behaviour (i.e. they don't get what they deserve for their actions)

Thw two are incompatible. It's like saying God will show both interest and apathy.

Ahhh! But that is exactly what it is all about.

We as human beings like to think that we are basically good people with such good potentials within our hearts when in fact we are evil, filthy and vile creatures worthy of death and not life. But what we deserve has already been received at the hands of the Lord for us in our place.

Christ; as God in the flesh, went in our place to suffer that which we deserve. Because He is God, he could die in the place of all of His creation. And because he was not worthy of death, Death had no hold on him and 3 days later (The only sign that He would give us that he is God in the flesh), He simply rose again from death. From non-existence.

It's as if you commit a crime worthy of death but the judge sets you free and in your place the judge goes off to be executed instead. In this case the Judge is Jesus. The requirements of justice have been met and mercy given towards one who did not deserve mercy.

So when God grants mercy to those who deserve none it is because Jesus Christ paid for our sins the death penalty that we deserve. But this is not something that is given to all humans even though it covers all human sins. But only repentant humans receive this gift of life or mercy from the deserved death penalty hanging over the scum bags that is humanity.

So in judgement to dish out the death penalty in the lake of fire to those who choose not to believe the evidence of God, is just. And to repentant believers in God's Christ, He is merciful. The fact that the death penalty is also an eternal death and not an eternal life in a state of suffering and turmoil in a supposed "Hell" is also merciful.

That unrepentant humans are simply snuffed out of existence in the lake of fire rather than to be allowed to continue the current state of existence where people all around the world suffer because of sin, is merciful. God is not going to punish people with eternal death in the lake of fire because they choose not to believe; People choose not to believe because humanity is basically evil and deserving of eternal death in the first place.

I don't know how better to explain this at this time. But God is merciful even with the worst of us if only that one would submit to God and believe with all of his heart. If only he turns from the dark side. Jesus then turns to the Father and claims him stating, I died for this one also. I paid for his crime and I declare him free from the death penalty. Both the requirements of Justice and punishment are met and mercy freely distributed to those who God will's.

OK, ignoring the Hitler tangent (because I think you're digging yourself into a hole there and Woodruff and chang are doing fine with handing you a bigger shovel) I'm curious how you define justice and mercy.

You have a person, Joe. Joe has killed another man in a cold blooded, premeditated and painful, torturous way. He has evaded earthly punishment for that crime because the police never found the body and could never prove anything. To me, it would be just that Joe faces the punishment due to him for the murder. I think up until this point we are agreed.

You say that if Joe sincerely repents and accepts God then Jesus (God) has taken Joe's punishment on the cross and Joe can be spared any punishment himself. What is Joe's just punishment (under your rules)? Eternal death. What did Jesus suffer? Temporary death. Therefore Jesus has not suffered Joe's punishment, but rather a lesser punishment.

Even if in a just system punishments could be moved from person to person without breaking the principles of justice (hence my request for how you define justice), Jesus has not suffered Joe's just punishment. To use your courtroom analogy, if a judge sentences Joe to life without parole, and then takes that punishment himself but only serves 3 days in jail and is released, justice has not been properly apportioned. Joe gets away without any punishment at all, while the judge serves a trivial sentence in his place. And that was one hell of a big "if" I started this paragraph with, because punishing Mike for Joe's transgressions seems pretty unjust to me, even if Mike asks for it.

I'll give my definitions again but slighty better worded. Justice is adhering to a set of principles whereby people get what they deserve for their actions/inactions. Mercy is setting aside that same set of principles to allow people to get something different than what they deserve for their actions/inactions out of compassion/love/whatever. It is impossible to be both wholly just and wholly merciful, one must be sacrificed for the other.

[tzor]

So tzor, do you think we're into the End Times /Last Days right now? How about you other faithful?

I am of two minds of this. It sometimes does look like we are in the End Times, but it looked that way to the people a thousand years ago as well. Then again, every time I turn around and see my cousin's youngsest child I ask myself, "Would God be so mean to deprive her of watching her grandchildren get married?"

Nobody's yet said whether they expect the "Rapture" first, I understand that the idea is not accepted by the majority of Christians.

One explanation of Catholic understanding can be found here.

In its 1993 document, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, the Pontifical Biblical Commission both reaffirmed this (Section I-A) and rejected as inadequate the so-called “fundamentalist” interpretation at play in the Rapture doctrine and scenario (Section I-F).

As John Paul II expressed it on April 22, 1998, “We know that the apocalyptic images of the eschatological discourse about the end of all things should be interpreted in light of their intense symbolism.” It is not language that should be taken literally.

[jonesthecurl]

So tzor, do you think we're into the End Times /Last Days right now? How about you other faithful?

I am of two minds of this. It sometimes does look like we are in the End Times, but it looked that way to the people a thousand years ago as well. Then again, every time I turn around and see my cousin's youngsest child I ask myself, "Would God be so mean to deprive her of watching her grandchildren get married?"

Nobody's yet said whether they expect the "Rapture" first, I understand that the idea is not accepted by the majority of Christians.

One explanation of Catholic understanding can be found here.

In its 1993 document, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, the Pontifical Biblical Commission both reaffirmed this (Section I-A) and rejected as inadequate the so-called “fundamentalist” interpretation at play in the Rapture doctrine and scenario (Section I-F).

As John Paul II expressed it on April 22, 1998, “We know that the apocalyptic images of the eschatological discourse about the end of all things should be interpreted in light of their intense symbolism.” It is not language that should be taken literally.

Thanks tzor. Anyone else?
(Note deliberately not taking the "Hitler was possessed by demons" bait

[john9blue]

One of those stages would be to accept that Humans evolved out of stones and mud rather than to accept the simple truth that God created us.

can i believe this and also believe that humans are evil, filthy and vile creatures?

why not both?