Post Any Evidence For God Here

[Gillipig]

Have you tried therapy?

[Symmetry]

I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

God vs. Science
'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.'
The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'
'Yes sir,' the student says.
[...]
The professor sat down.

The student was Albert Einstein.
Albert Einstein wrote a book titled God vs. Science in 1921...

Snopes calls BS on your argument:
http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

But hey, faith in a lie is still faith, eh?

[crispybits]

Also the whole "evil is an absence of good" argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

There is no darkness so dark that the light from a candle would not banish it. Darkness offers no resistance to light. However even the most evil of men has done good deeds at some point. If evil was totally passive then the smallest amount of good would have made their evil acts impossible if they even had the smallest scrap of good in their heart. No rapist could rape if he had the smallest shred of compassion or respect for others in their hearts, yet many men and women have committed rapes whilst also performing other acts that show respect and compassion during other times in their lives.

The problem of evil is also not limited to men. There are the evils of nature, the evil of disease that kills thousands of people every year is just one example. It cannot be attributed to the absence of health or well being because the disease organisms that kill us are perfectly healthy in and of themselves. If any part of us were healthy and evil were passive then disease should never be able to gain a foothold in any person.

To summarise, you're still spouting BS UC....

[Symmetry]

To be fair, it's more likely that he's been fed some BS on the basis that he would believe it. Where did you get your post from UC? And would you believe them again?

[BigBallinStalin]

Claims attributing Evil as a cause cannot provide a useful explanation. And, this attribute of Evil is wholly different than describing a disease as Evil--in that, an 'evil' disease is really just a bad, a thing which is undesirable at current amounts. Instead, the focus should not lie on Evil but rather should emphasize the actions of humans, their given circumstances, and their different valuations of plan A (the profit/utility-maximizing choice versus plan B, (the value foregone, i.e. the opportunity cost).

[crispybits]

But as soon as you bring any "shades of grey" argument into it it also dispels the "absence of good" argument.

Christian doctrine tells us that everything that God creates is good, and that God created everything. So for something to be evil in a world where evil is totally passive (as per the Augustinian creed this derives from) it would have to be literally nothing, because even physical form or freedom of thought has to be regarded as part of God's creation and therefore good, and it could never influence anything towards evil acts, thoughts, etc.

[BigBallinStalin]

But as soon as you bring any "shades of grey" argument into it it also dispels the "absence of good" argument.

I'm satisfied with that outcome.

Christian doctrine tells us that everything that God creates is good, and that God created everything. So for something to be evil in a world where evil is totally passive (as per the Augustinian creed this derives from) it would have to be literally nothing, because even physical form or freedom of thought has to be regarded as part of God's creation and therefore good, and it could never influence anything towards evil acts, thoughts, etc.

Oh, "Christian doctrine"! I forgot that some still heavily replace social science with such doctrine! Maybe that's the source of their problem.

[john9blue]

why can't things be evil without being pure evil? why can't they be quasi-evil? semi-evil? the margarine of evil? the diet coke of evil?

[crispybits]

Because we're basing this part of the conversation on the Augustinian doctrine (privato boni) that evil is simply the absence of good. The analogy is darkness is an absence of light.

With this kind of passive evil that is simply a lack of something, then you have to say that if there is any good there the evil will offer no resistance. Take a candle into a dark room and the darkness doesn't resist the light, it can't.

But then you look at the fact that it is clearly stated that God created everything, and that everything that God created is good, or at least starts out good. (Can't be bothered looking up exact chapter and verse references but that's hardly a controversial claim - Genesis chapter 1 would be a good start I guess). So physical matter is good. Light is good. Sound is good. Free will is good. Souls are good. Thoughts are good. For the doctrine to work then evil must be the absence of ANY of these things.

It also falls down in that I can love someone, or I can feel no love for them at all, I can be totally apathetic. But not caring at all is a very different thing to hating someone. I don't see many arguments that hate is good. Hate is generally regarded as a bad thing, even in the teachings of the gospel writers themselves (1 John 3:15), not a simple absence of a good thing.

Augustine was trying to figure out an answer to the problem of evil and privato boni was his best attempt, but to accept it means warping the rest of christianity to such an extent that either privato boni falls over, or the basics of christianity do...

[crispybits]

Time for something a little different from me - it's Sam Harris and all that, but he's making an important point towards atheists rather than believers, and while I've studied enough chemistry to not doubt what he says and therefore the point was lost a little on me, the analogy he's trying to make is a sound one...

[john9blue]

Because we're basing this part of the conversation on the Augustinian doctrine (privato boni) that evil is simply the absence of good. The analogy is darkness is an absence of light.

With this kind of passive evil that is simply a lack of something, then you have to say that if there is any good there the evil will offer no resistance. Take a candle into a dark room and the darkness doesn't resist the light, it can't.

But then you look at the fact that it is clearly stated that God created everything, and that everything that God created is good, or at least starts out good. (Can't be bothered looking up exact chapter and verse references but that's hardly a controversial claim - Genesis chapter 1 would be a good start I guess). So physical matter is good. Light is good. Sound is good. Free will is good. Souls are good. Thoughts are good. For the doctrine to work then evil must be the absence of ANY of these things.

It also falls down in that I can love someone, or I can feel no love for them at all, I can be totally apathetic. But not caring at all is a very different thing to hating someone. I don't see many arguments that hate is good. Hate is generally regarded as a bad thing, even in the teachings of the gospel writers themselves (1 John 3:15), not a simple absence of a good thing.

Augustine was trying to figure out an answer to the problem of evil and privato boni was his best attempt, but to accept it means warping the rest of christianity to such an extent that either privato boni falls over, or the basics of christianity do...

your candle metaphor seems to confirm the hypothesis that everything has some amount of good within it. something can be strongly lit, or dimly lit, but there's always some light there.

you think that evil must be the COMPLETE absence of good. why?

[BigBallinStalin]

Ask Augustine. That's what he's applying...

[crispybits]

And in the universe, even that which is called evil, when it is regulated and put in its own place, only enhances our admiration of the good; for we enjoy and value the good more when we compare it with the evil. For the Almighty God, who, as even the heathen acknowledge, has supreme power over all things, being Himself supremely good, would never permit the existence of anything evil among His works, if He were not so omnipotent and good that He can bring good even out of evil. For what is that which we call evil but the absence of good? In the bodies of animals, disease and wounds mean nothing but the absence of health; for when a cure is effected, that does not mean that the evils which were present—namely, the diseases and wounds—go away from the body and dwell elsewhere: they altogether cease to exist; for the wound or disease is not a substance, but a defect in the fleshly substance,—the flesh itself being a substance, and therefore something good, of which those evils—that is, privations of the good which we call health—are accidents.

Putting aside the fourth/fifth century total misunderstanding of what a disease is (despite some saying it's scientifically proven in the book he himself is widely regarded as one of the greatest scholars of) he is saying exactly what I paraphrased. Now you also see why I used the example of disease a few posts ago - I was directly referencing the author of this untenable theory...

Also it's perfectly possible to have a total absence of visible light. Paint a room entirely in matt black paint, go inside, close the door, seal any edges around the door with more light absorbent matt black material and you will very quickly have a room in which no photons are whizzing about and there is a total absence of light. Or if you want something more extreme wait around for maybe 10^100+ years or so, when the last stars have died, the last black holes have shrunk to nothing, physical matter no longer exists and the universe hits absolute zero.

[oVo]

it's perfectly possible to have a total absence of visible light. [...] physical matter no longer exists and the universe hits absolute zero.

I'm thinking there are still "waves" and other things passing through the room even without any visible light present and can't yet imagine a time where physical matter doesn't exist somewhere. Is a black hole actually not an absence at all but an extremely dense mass giving it immense gravitational pull?

do you ever hear voices?

[crispybits]

The best estimates right now for how the universe will end is that the stars all die out, then black holes suck in the vast majority of any remaining matter, then the black holes slowly evaporate (they give off some radiation so if they aren't sucking in matter they shrink), and any remaining matter decays and falls apart (everything is sort of radioactive, just the "stable" elements have half lives numbering into the trillions of years, so eventually matter just kinda falls apart because it's all too old to stay together), and the energy content of space dwindles down until you're left with a black empty nothing at absolute zero.

Remember we're talking on timescales here of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of years or more, this isn't even a timescale imagined by the wackiest of sci-fi writers.

[oVo]

There are also a few doomsday scenarios for our planet
and this solar system that don't require trillions of years.
In fact there is always the possibility that the life patterns
on planet Earth could be altered in an instant.

[john9blue]

Putting aside the fourth/fifth century total misunderstanding of what a disease is (despite some saying it's scientifically proven in the book he himself is widely regarded as one of the greatest scholars of) he is saying exactly what I paraphrased. Now you also see why I used the example of disease a few posts ago - I was directly referencing the author of this untenable theory...

Also it's perfectly possible to have a total absence of visible light. Paint a room entirely in matt black paint, go inside, close the door, seal any edges around the door with more light absorbent matt black material and you will very quickly have a room in which no photons are whizzing about and there is a total absence of light. Or if you want something more extreme wait around for maybe 10^100+ years or so, when the last stars have died, the last black holes have shrunk to nothing, physical matter no longer exists and the universe hits absolute zero.

not sure whether it's worth my time to defend a metaphor... but i still don't see the problem here. nothing in the universe is pure evil, because nothing completely lacks goodness, because god created everything. that seems to match the light metaphor perfectly well (even your matte black room will have a few photons)

[Man United]

So if something/someone is slightly evil, god has a little bit of presence there? Considering nothing is completely perfect, god must never fully be anywhere. He just has different degrees of absense depending on the location.

[jonesthecurl]

There are also a few doomsday scenarios for our planet
and this solar system that don't require trillions of years.
In fact there is always the possibility that the life patterns
on planet Earth could be altered in an instant.

Sure and we'll all die personally in the next few decades anyway. That parochial viewpoint nothing to do with the heat death of the whole universe though.

[john9blue]

So if something/someone is slightly evil, god has a little bit of presence there? Considering nothing is completely perfect, god must never fully be anywhere. He just has different degrees of absense depending on the location.

idk what "god's presence" has to do with it... there are a few different views on that.

Sure and we'll all die personally in the next few decades anyway.

speak for yourself, old man!

[jonesthecurl]

So if something/someone is slightly evil, god has a little bit of presence there? Considering nothing is completely perfect, god must never fully be anywhere. He just has different degrees of absense depending on the location.

idk what "god's presence" has to do with it... there are a few different views on that.

Sure and we'll all die personally in the next few decades anyway.

speak for yourself, old man!

Cosmically, I won't go long before you. I got 30-40 years max. You got 50-60.

[crispybits]

not sure whether it's worth my time to defend a metaphor... but i still don't see the problem here. nothing in the universe is pure evil, because nothing completely lacks goodness, because god created everything. that seems to match the light metaphor perfectly well (even your matte black room will have a few photons)

The point is that it's not a metaphor. Augustine wrote that in the honest belief that it somehow resolved the problem of evil, that in all seriousness this was the metaphysics of good and evil and was how the universe worked.

As a metaphor in certain situations it holds up, as an actual theory of good and evil it doesn't.

Gotta admit though, for a hippopotamus he sure was smart!

[chang50]

not sure whether it's worth my time to defend a metaphor... but i still don't see the problem here. nothing in the universe is pure evil, because nothing completely lacks goodness, because god created everything. that seems to match the light metaphor perfectly well (even your matte black room will have a few photons)

The point is that it's not a metaphor. Augustine wrote that in the honest belief that it somehow resolved the problem of evil, that in all seriousness this was the metaphysics of good and evil and was how the universe worked.

As a metaphor in certain situations it holds up, as an actual theory of good and evil it doesn't.

Gotta admit though, for a hippopotamus he sure was smart!

Theodicy will always be a major problem for Christianity with it's omnibenevolent deity.Apologists often resort to cliches along the lines of 'God works in mysterious ways..etc',forgetting the obvious fact that if he is that mysterious how do they know so much about him in other areas?

[crispybits]

Slightly going off topic here, but this church definitely has youth outreach down to a fine art!