ObamaCare - exchanges ,report your states options!

[saxitoxin]

Obamacare Certificate of Enrollment ≠ "Access to Health Care"

A poll conducted by the New York State Medical Society finds that 44 percent of MDs said they are not participating in the nation’s new health-care plan.
Another 33 percent say they’re still not sure whether to become ObamaCare providers. Only 23 percent of the 409 physicians queried said they’re taking patients who signed up through health exchanges. Three out of four doctors who are participating in the program said they “had to participate” because of existing contractual obligations with an insurer or medical provider, not because they wanted to.

“This is so poorly designed that a lot of doctors are afraid to participate,” said Dr. Sam Unterricht, president of the 29,000-member organization.

http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

[BigBallinStalin]

The chart that could save Obamacare



Thoughts?

It's misleading.

"Unaffected" = keeping current plan

Is it ignoring the change in prices of the current plans?

[saxitoxin]

The chart that could save Obamacare



Thoughts?

It's misleading.

"Unaffected" = keeping current plan

Is it ignoring the change in prices of the current plans?

I also enjoy that the source is "estimates from Jon Gruber." Jon Gruber, like Obama, is definitely one of the winners of the ACA ...

GRUBER PAID $392,000 TO PROMOTE OBAMACARE

Jonathan Gruber has been the go-to source that all the health care bill apologists point to to defend otherwise dubious arguments. But he has consistently failed to disclose that he has had a sole-source contract with the Department of Health and Human Services since June 19, 2009 to consult on the "President's health reform proposal."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/0 ... 15999.html

[Metsfanmax]

The chart that could save Obamacare



Thoughts?

It's misleading.

"Unaffected" = keeping current plan

Is it ignoring the change in prices of the current plans?

I don't know; the source of the numbers is a New Yorker piece based on a conversation with Gruber, so the methodology is obviously unclear.

For people who don't have to get new plans, is it the case that the prices of these plans will significantly change?

[BigBallinStalin]

Yeah, the prices of their plans will change--based on a conversation with an insurance agent a couple of years ago. The ACA tried to 'lock in' expected price changes by establishing some ratio of prices between insurance plans for older people and for younger people, so in consequence, the younger will have to pay higher prices.

Regardless, if you make a company take on more risky clients (since 'pre-existers' will have to be accepted, iirc), then the company will either raise prices to compensate for the expected loss and/or decrease benefits/qualities of various plans (which is essentially increasing the price; previous plans don't get you as much).


Also, no amount of fancy rhetoric from (seemingly unscientific)* charts can ignore the obvious counter-argument to ACA:

its rising costs for pretty much everyone
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=93718&p=4315993&hilit=ACA+costs#p4315993

*(I'm assuming having a sole-source contract means that he's the only one with access to the information, so no one can verify whatever study/propaganda he pumps out. He also seems to be a spokesperson more than a scientist. It's disgraceful).

[jj3044]

Obamacare Certificate of Enrollment ≠ "Access to Health Care"

A poll conducted by the New York State Medical Society finds that 44 percent of MDs said they are not participating in the nation’s new health-care plan.
Another 33 percent say they’re still not sure whether to become ObamaCare providers. Only 23 percent of the 409 physicians queried said they’re taking patients who signed up through health exchanges. Three out of four doctors who are participating in the program said they “had to participate” because of existing contractual obligations with an insurer or medical provider, not because they wanted to.

“This is so poorly designed that a lot of doctors are afraid to participate,” said Dr. Sam Unterricht, president of the 29,000-member organization.

http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

I LOL'd at this. Doctors frankly, won't know if a plan was purchased through the exchange. Someone can buy the same United plan through the exchange, and directly through the insurer in most cases. You are only eligible for premium subsidies through the exchange, so that of course is the incentive for poorer individuals. You would still have the same plan either way. This article is taking the slim minority of doctors that are mad at INSURANCE reimbursements, that have absolutely nothing to do with the ACA. Some doctors in the past several years have decided to not participate in insurance networks, going cash only, so that they can charge whatever they would like.

Guess what demographic is keeping THOSE doctors in business?

More insurers (and Medicare) are moving towards outcomes-based contracts with providers which provide a set amount to care for a patient's conditions. These contracts have incentives built in so that if the patient outcomes are better, they get paid a bit extra. In this new model, GOOD doctors are rewarded, and poor doctors that either don't have the ability or inclination to provide great care make a little less than they do today in the typical fee-for-service contract.

So, when you hear of doctors quoting nonsense that is in that article, be sure to research and understand the WHY of the situation.

[Night Strike]

The chart that could save Obamacare



Thoughts?

It's from Slate, so of course they would peddle big government.

And I guess they consider 93 million people losing their health insurance to be unaffected by the law. Impressive way to be unaffected.

[saxitoxin]

This article is taking the slim minority of doctors

As quoted in the article, the poll was conducted by, and of, the New York Medical Society, the State of New York branch of the American Medical Association, the largest association of physicians and surgeons in the United States and on the planet Earth.

Again, here's my source: http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/. What's yours?

"the slim minority of doctors"

[saxitoxin]

Today's Obamacare Scandal: Obama Frantically Doling Out Even More of the Pie to Billionaire Donors, as Millions of Working Americans Suffer

A tech firm linked to a campaign-donor crony of President Obama not only got the job to help build the federal health-insurance Web site — but also is getting paid to fix it. Anthony Welters, a top campaign bundler for Obama and frequent White House guest, is the executive vice president of UnitedHealth Group, which owns the software company now at the center of the ObamaCare Web-site fiasco.

http://nypost.com/2013/11/01/obama-dono ... lped-make/

Obama only has 2 years left in office - he's making sure all his billionaire buddies grab as much of the pie as possible on the way out! This really is the Tony-winning Evita in real life. This should be the new Obama theme song ...

"Cynics claim a little of the cash has gone astray - but that's not the point!
When the money keeps rolling out you don't keep books;
You can tell you've done well by the happy, grateful looks.
Accountants only slow things down - figures get in the way."

[jj3044]

This article is taking the slim minority of doctors

As quoted in the article, the poll was conducted by, and of, the New York Medical Society, the State of New York branch of the American Medical Association, the largest association of physicians and surgeons in the United States and on the planet Earth.

Again, here's my source: http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/. What's yours?

"the slim minority of doctors"

Here you go, thanks to Google:
http://www.newrepublic.com/blog/jonatha ... -obamacare

A better way to gauge these issues is to examine how physicians and the organizations which represent them actually behaved during last year’s health reform. One wouldn’t know from Pipes’ article that the American Medical Association, the American College of Physicians, the American Academy of Family Physicians, the American College of Surgeons, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American Society of Anesthesiologists, the American Osteopathic Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American College of Cardiology all endorsed last year’s health reform. These groups represent hundreds of thousands of physicians across a wide range of medical sub-specialties.

What are your thoughts to the other parts of my last post, btw?

More insurers (and Medicare) are moving towards outcomes-based contracts with providers which provide a set amount to care for a patient's conditions. These contracts have incentives built in so that if the patient outcomes are better, they get paid a bit extra. In this new model, GOOD doctors are rewarded, and poor doctors that either don't have the ability or inclination to provide great care make a little less than they do today in the typical fee-for-service contract.

So, when you hear of doctors quoting nonsense that is in that article, be sure to research and understand the WHY of the situation.

[saxitoxin]

This article is taking the slim minority of doctors

As quoted in the article, the poll was conducted by, and of, the New York Medical Society, the State of New York branch of the American Medical Association, the largest association of physicians and surgeons in the United States and on the planet Earth.

Again, here's my source: http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/. What's yours?

"the slim minority of doctors"

Here you go, thanks to Google:
http://www.newrepublic.com/blog/jonatha ... -obamacare

Here's an 18-month more recent source, thanks to three posts ago:

A poll conducted by the New York State Medical Society [the NY branch of the AMA] finds that 44 percent of MDs [in the State of New York] said they are not participating in the nation’s new health-care plan. Another 33 percent say they’re still not sure whether to become ObamaCare providers.

http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

[jj3044]

Also from the same article:

That’s not to say physician enthusiasm for reform is universal -- far from it. Different specialties have different financial interests at stake. Like everyone else, physicians also hold diverse ideological views regarding the proper role of government and private enterprise in the health care system.

Speaking of different interests, NY, in particular, has some of the highest cost of care in the country* and a butt-load of non-par providers, making it very reasonable to assume that the association in that state would be against the law trying to drive DOWN the cost of coverage.

*I'll have to dig up some stats for this as well, but I know my analytics folks say this all the time.

[jj3044]

This article is taking the slim minority of doctors

As quoted in the article, the poll was conducted by, and of, the New York Medical Society, the State of New York branch of the American Medical Association, the largest association of physicians and surgeons in the United States and on the planet Earth.

Again, here's my source: http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/. What's yours?

"the slim minority of doctors"

Here you go, thanks to Google:
http://www.newrepublic.com/blog/jonatha ... -obamacare

Here's an 18-month more recent source, thanks to three posts ago:

A poll conducted by the New York State Medical Society [the NY branch of the AMA] finds that 44 percent of MDs [in the State of New York] said they are not participating in the nation’s new health-care plan. Another 33 percent say they’re still not sure whether to become ObamaCare providers.

http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

Right. I'm honestly not surprised that some NY providers feel this way, as their golden goose is about to be taken from them.

[saxitoxin]

Also from the same article:

That’s not to say physician enthusiasm for reform is universal -- far from it. Different specialties have different financial interests at stake. Like everyone else, physicians also hold diverse ideological views regarding the proper role of government and private enterprise in the health care system.

Speaking of different interests, NY, in particular, has some of the highest cost of care in the country* and a butt-load of non-par providers, making it very reasonable to assume that the association in that state would be against the law trying to drive DOWN the care of coverage.

So first no NY doctors were against it. Now, "okay, doctors are against it," but in New York, like, the doctors are just greedy and rolling around in piles of gold.

I'm looking forward to the third version.

"Greedy doctors! The poor don't need 'em - let the workers use midwives and faith healers!", says billionaire Aetna CEO Mark Bertolini.

[jj3044]

Also from the same article:

That’s not to say physician enthusiasm for reform is universal -- far from it. Different specialties have different financial interests at stake. Like everyone else, physicians also hold diverse ideological views regarding the proper role of government and private enterprise in the health care system.

Speaking of different interests, NY, in particular, has some of the highest cost of care in the country* and a butt-load of non-par providers, making it very reasonable to assume that the association in that state would be against the law trying to drive DOWN the cost of coverage.

*I'll have to dig up some stats for this as well, but I know my analytics folks say this all the time.

Here you go, NY is among the highest costs in the country (the whole Northeast is an expensive region).
http://online.wsj.com/news/interactive/IVCostsprint?ref=SB10001424127887323884304578328173966380066

[jj3044]

Also from the same article:

That’s not to say physician enthusiasm for reform is universal -- far from it. Different specialties have different financial interests at stake. Like everyone else, physicians also hold diverse ideological views regarding the proper role of government and private enterprise in the health care system.

Speaking of different interests, NY, in particular, has some of the highest cost of care in the country* and a butt-load of non-par providers, making it very reasonable to assume that the association in that state would be against the law trying to drive DOWN the care of coverage.

So first no NY doctors were against it. Now, "okay, doctors are against it," but New York, like, just sucks man.

I'm looking forward to the next line of talking points from the Aetna, Inc. fact sheet.

When did I say that some doctors weren't against it? I never did. I said the (vocal) minority is against it, and provided examples of large physician based organizations that support the law. Don't put words in my mouth. As with everything in life, some will be for "x", and others will be against "x", as most people have their own personal best interests at heart.

[saxitoxin]

Also from the same article:

That’s not to say physician enthusiasm for reform is universal -- far from it. Different specialties have different financial interests at stake. Like everyone else, physicians also hold diverse ideological views regarding the proper role of government and private enterprise in the health care system.

Speaking of different interests, NY, in particular, has some of the highest cost of care in the country* and a butt-load of non-par providers, making it very reasonable to assume that the association in that state would be against the law trying to drive DOWN the cost of coverage.

*I'll have to dig up some stats for this as well, but I know my analytics folks say this all the time.

Here you go, NY is among the highest costs in the country (the whole Northeast is an expensive region).
http://online.wsj.com/news/interactive/IVCostsprint?ref=SB10001424127887323884304578328173966380066

How much does a 2 bedroom house cost in midtown Manhattan? How much does a 2 bedroom house cost in Norman, Oklahoma?

"Greedy doctors! Doctors in this country are too rich!" ... the first time I've ever heard this line actually floated in a serious conversation. Hilarious. What's next - greedy janitors, nurses and housekeepers? Meanwhile, Obama's billionaire buddies in the Aetna and UHC executive suites line their pockets at the expense of those greedy doctors, janitors and bed-pan cleaners you and Obama hate so much.

I said the (vocal) minority [in New York] is against it

and you were wrong

A poll conducted by the New York State Medical Society [the NY branch of the AMA] finds that 44 percent of MDs [in the State of New York] said they are not participating in the nation’s new health-care plan. Another 33 percent say they’re still not sure whether to become ObamaCare providers.

http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

[WILLIAMS5232]

ha ha ha.......

[saxitoxin]

How much does a 2 bedroom house cost in midtown Manhattan? How much does a 2 bedroom house cost in Norman, Oklahoma?

I'll answer my own question:

Norman: $129,000
New York: $1,589,000
http://www.zillow.com/local-info/NY-100 ... e/r_61624/

Housing in Manhattan is 1,000% more expensive than Norman and yet the cost of medicine is only 33% more pricey?

"Greedy doctors in New York can just live in hostels! They can bed-down in alleys before they perform brain surgery! They make enough to buy a sleeping bag and tent! There are plenty of second jobs they can get at Hillary Clinton's Wal-Mart if they need to pay down those $300,000 student loans. Obamacare looks out for who really matters - the CEO of Aetna!"

[jj3044]

I said the (vocal) minority [in New York] is against it

and you were wrong

A poll conducted by the New York State Medical Society [the NY branch of the AMA] finds that 44 percent of MDs [in the State of New York] said they are not participating in the nation’s new health-care plan. Another 33 percent say they’re still not sure whether to become ObamaCare providers.

http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

Hardly. From your article:

Only 23 percent of the 409 physicians queried said they’re taking patients who signed up through health exchanges.

“This is so poorly designed that a lot of doctors are afraid to participate,” said Dr. Sam Unterricht, president of the 29,000-member organization.

So... 409 doctors responded to the poll out of more than 29,000. That is approximately 1.4% of doctors responding to the survey. Again, the story is misleading. The sample size is horrendously small.

Again, you need to look at all of the facts, what the study was asking, who it was being asked to, and how many responded. Just don't read the words and take it as gospel.

[BigBallinStalin]

Today's Obamacare Scandal: Obama Frantically Doling Out Even More of the Pie to Billionaire Donors, as Millions of Working Americans Suffer

A tech firm linked to a campaign-donor crony of President Obama not only got the job to help build the federal health-insurance Web site — but also is getting paid to fix it. Anthony Welters, a top campaign bundler for Obama and frequent White House guest, is the executive vice president of UnitedHealth Group, which owns the software company now at the center of the ObamaCare Web-site fiasco.

http://nypost.com/2013/11/01/obama-dono ... lped-make/

Obama only has 2 years left in office - he's making sure all his billionaire buddies grab as much of the pie as possible on the way out! This really is the Tony-winning Evita in real life. This should be the new Obama theme song ...

"Cynics claim a little of the cash has gone astray - but that's not the point!
When the money keeps rolling out you don't keep books;
You can tell you've done well by the happy, grateful looks.
Accountants only slow things down - figures get in the way."

What's with you and musicals?

[BigBallinStalin]

I said the (vocal) minority [in New York] is against it

and you were wrong

A poll conducted by the New York State Medical Society [the NY branch of the AMA] finds that 44 percent of MDs [in the State of New York] said they are not participating in the nation’s new health-care plan. Another 33 percent say they’re still not sure whether to become ObamaCare providers.

http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

Hardly. From your article:

Only 23 percent of the 409 physicians queried said they’re taking patients who signed up through health exchanges.

“This is so poorly designed that a lot of doctors are afraid to participate,” said Dr. Sam Unterricht, president of the 29,000-member organization.

So... 409 doctors responded to the poll out of more than 29,000. That is approximately 1.4% of doctors responding to the survey. Again, the story is misleading. The sample size is horrendously small.

Again, you need to look at all of the facts, what the study was asking, who it was being asked to, and how many responded. Just don't read the words and take it as gospel.

I wouldn't be surprised if we found jj rabidly supporting a source which had similar problems.

[jj3044]

How much does a 2 bedroom house cost in midtown Manhattan? How much does a 2 bedroom house cost in Norman, Oklahoma?

I'll answer my own question:

Norman: $129,000
New York: $1,589,000
http://www.zillow.com/local-info/NY-100 ... e/r_61624/

Housing in Manhattan is 1,000% more expensive than Norman and yet the cost of medicine is only 33% more pricey?

"Greedy doctors in New York can just live in hostels! They can bed-down in alleys before they perform brain surgery! They make enough to buy a sleeping bag and tent! There are plenty of second jobs they can get at Hillary Clinton's Wal-Mart if they need to pay down those $300,000 student loans. Obamacare looks out for who really matters - the CEO of Aetna!"

You are grasping at straws. Sure Manhattan is expensive, but there are plenty of areas in NY that are comparable to Norman, OK. In fact, my sister who lives in Rochester NY bought a 3bd house in good condition up there for $110k.

[saxitoxin]

I said the (vocal) minority [in New York] is against it

and you were wrong

A poll conducted by the New York State Medical Society [the NY branch of the AMA] finds that 44 percent of MDs [in the State of New York] said they are not participating in the nation’s new health-care plan. Another 33 percent say they’re still not sure whether to become ObamaCare providers.

http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

Hardly. From your article:

Only 23 percent of the 409 physicians queried said they’re taking patients who signed up through health exchanges.

“This is so poorly designed that a lot of doctors are afraid to participate,” said Dr. Sam Unterricht, president of the 29,000-member organization.

So... 409 doctors responded to the poll out of more than 29,000. That is approximately 1.4% of doctors responding to the survey. Again, the story is misleading. The sample size is horrendously small.

Nope - 10th grade math would tell you that's a (roughly) 97% confidence level; all the major pollsters (Gallup, PPP, etc.) only report a 95% confidence level. Here - you can even calculate it online if it's easier: http://www.macorr.com/sample-size-calculator.htm

So, to recap the evolving versions of your rebuttal so far: (1) no doctors are against it, (2) okay, doctors are against it but they're just greedy, (3) okay, they're not greedy but the survey is flawed. (4) Next? (This is too tedious - I have to go now anyway. BBS - take over for me.)

[jj3044]

I said the (vocal) minority [in New York] is against it

and you were wrong

A poll conducted by the New York State Medical Society [the NY branch of the AMA] finds that 44 percent of MDs [in the State of New York] said they are not participating in the nation’s new health-care plan. Another 33 percent say they’re still not sure whether to become ObamaCare providers.

http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

Hardly. From your article:

Only 23 percent of the 409 physicians queried said they’re taking patients who signed up through health exchanges.

“This is so poorly designed that a lot of doctors are afraid to participate,” said Dr. Sam Unterricht, president of the 29,000-member organization.

So... 409 doctors responded to the poll out of more than 29,000. That is approximately 1.4% of doctors responding to the survey. Again, the story is misleading. The sample size is horrendously small.

Again, you need to look at all of the facts, what the study was asking, who it was being asked to, and how many responded. Just don't read the words and take it as gospel.

I wouldn't be surprised if we found jj rabidly supporting a source which had similar problems.

That's the problem with the media. You often need to dig deeper yourself to get the true story.

What I wish you guys would do is actually respond to the meat and potatoes of my posts about healthcare, instead of trying to nit-pick apart the semantic points. Such as:

More insurers (and Medicare) are moving towards outcomes-based contracts with providers which provide a set amount to care for a patient's conditions. These contracts have incentives built in so that if the patient outcomes are better, they get paid a bit extra. In this new model, GOOD doctors are rewarded, and poor doctors that either don't have the ability or inclination to provide great care make a little less than they do today in the typical fee-for-service contract.

What are your opinions, in general, of changing from fee-for-service to outcomes & quality based contracting? Do you believe this will help in reducing costs and improving outcomes? Did you even hear of these things happening before I brought them up in this thread?