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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby Night Strike on Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:25 pm

Phatscotty wrote:This is the biggest flop of all time. Even Obama has taken his name off it recently. Pre-October, Obama was calling it Obamacare just as much as he was calling it the Affordable Care act (40 times each in August, 25 to 20 in September). But now you won't hear the president calling his holy grail/top achievement by the name Obamacare any longer, as Obama has clearly begun distancing himself from Obamacare, even blaming it on Congress!


He could also be trying to push the "Affordable" portion of the name so that people will just go on and look at the subsidized price and ignore everything else going on. That's almost all they do now on their Twitter account (and they push for states to expand Medicaid), although late last week they tried to change the phrase "subsidy" to "tax credit".
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:14 am

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:
rockfist wrote:All politicians are car salesmen...until we don't have politicians who exempt themselves from their own laws and don't have career politicians its all we will get.


i know. it's aggravating. i just can't stand that smirk on his face when he's bashing the other team. it makes me want to challenge him to a duel. i mean it disgusts me when i see a friend act like that. i can't see how he has so much support. he's like a big bully. but not a bully that can kick your ass, one that has friends that can kick your ass.

i mean, a leader in any good movie can usually beat all his minions ass.... that's why he's the leader. i'd at least respect that. but when a guy comes in acting like he's some sort of comedian at the expense of the citizens that don't agree with his policy, i find that to be a poor leadership trait. not to mention his policy's selling points are mostly misleading.


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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:18 am

Phatscotty wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:My political sphere is alien to most.

However, every now and then, people who share thoughts with me also share thoughts with PhatScotty:
http://qctimes.com/news/opinion/mailbag/taxpayer-money-wasted-on-upgrades/article_336215ce-1d86-5b35-bff7-19386479c829.html

Does that make me a Republican?


Only when a Democrat is president. When a Republican is president, WE ARE LIBERALS!


We are more alike than I at first realized.
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:23 am

Image
a Project Veritas “investigator” tells Obamacare navigators at the National Urban League’s offices in Dallas that he never reports his outside income when filing his taxes, which is likely untrue. The navigators then advise him not to get himself in “trouble” by reporting the income to the IRS now.

“You’re supposed to file a percentage of it,” the navigator, identified as “Mrs. Dorothy,” says in the video. “Don’t get yourself in trouble by declaring it now.”

“Yeah, it didn’t happen,” another navigator, “Lakisha Williams,” adds.








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Later in the video, other Obamacare navigators at NUL Irving Community Center can be heard informing the Project Veritas investigator not to identify himself as a smoker in order to receive a lower health insurance premium.

“They have — I don’t know where it said it says something about if you smoke or something like that, but I don’t really smoke,” the Project Veritas staffer says.

“You lie because your premiums will be higher,” an Obamacare navigator “assistant” replies.

“Don’t tell them that,” Obamacare navigator “Sabrina Hill” chimes in.

The same Obamacare navigator assistant later added, “I always lie on mine.”
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby john9blue on Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:28 am

DoomYoshi wrote:We are more alike than I at first realized.


i honestly think that almost everyone in this forum would have quite similar views if we were all equally perceptive, educated, and open-minded.
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:32 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Image
a Project Veritas “investigator” tells Obamacare navigators at the National Urban League’s offices in Dallas that he never reports his outside income when filing his taxes, which is likely untrue. The navigators then advise him not to get himself in “trouble” by reporting the income to the IRS now.

“You’re supposed to file a percentage of it,” the navigator, identified as “Mrs. Dorothy,” says in the video. “Don’t get yourself in trouble by declaring it now.”

“Yeah, it didn’t happen,” another navigator, “Lakisha Williams,” adds.








Image
Later in the video, other Obamacare navigators at NUL Irving Community Center can be heard informing the Project Veritas investigator not to identify himself as a smoker in order to receive a lower health insurance premium.

“They have — I don’t know where it said it says something about if you smoke or something like that, but I don’t really smoke,” the Project Veritas staffer says.

“You lie because your premiums will be higher,” an Obamacare navigator “assistant” replies.

“Don’t tell them that,” Obamacare navigator “Sabrina Hill” chimes in.

The same Obamacare navigator assistant later added, “I always lie on mine.”


Um, any reasonable person would give similar advice. The only person who wouldn't are the Lawful Good who dedicate their lives 100% to the state. I don't think they exist--except maybe the TGD caricature.
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:47 pm

"any reasonable person would make a similar decision for themselves" Someone advising you to lie in order to obtain more money/benefits is something else altogether.
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby john9blue on Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:30 pm

they are just symptoms of a broken system. their actions shouldn't surprise you.
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:07 pm




Senator Ron Johnson Introduces Legislation to Allow You to Keep Your Health Care Plan
http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/eyeonf ... -care-plan

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Bill Clinton is on board. Would be sweet if he moved to the center, gave us a little credit, turn on Obama; would set Hillary up very nicely. the Clinton's are clearly distancing themselves from Obama and Obamacare. Hillary will obviously be running against Obama's policies....STARTING NOW!


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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:24 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Um, any reasonable person would give similar advice. The only person who wouldn't are the Lawful Good who dedicate their lives 100% to the state. I don't think they exist--except maybe the TGD caricature.


Pesky lawyers and their ethics.

Phatscotty wrote:Image


So you're saying that after Darth Obama leaves, Lando Public is going to free Han Healthcare from carbonite?
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:11 pm

Phatscotty wrote:"any reasonable person would make a similar decision for themselves" Someone advising you to lie in order to obtain more money/benefits is something else altogether.


Actually, the first example is someone giving advice so that the person can become less victimized by the IRS. I see this as a good thing.

The second is more difficult to justify because insurance companies themselves don't threaten to trample you if you don't pay, but the definition of "smoker" can be vague. I've seen CDC studies defining 'smoker' as someone who smokes at least 2 cigarettes per day, so if you smoke one a day, you're not a smoker.

Also, if you were a smoker for 4 years, then recently have not smoked within a year, should you say that you were a smoker thus face higher prices? To be honest, I'd opt for "no, I'm not a smoker," and I'd tell anyone else to do the same.

I'd be less inclined to encourage the heavy smokers to outright lie.

So, that's that. I know you're trying to twist their reasonable advice into "ObamaCare menya shmenya hrm hrm!," but it's not working.
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby Symmetry on Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:14 pm

I have very much enjoyed the pictures in this thread.
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:14 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:So, that's that. I know you're trying to twist their reasonable advice into "ObamaCare menya shmenya hrm hrm!," but it's not working.


It threatens Phatscotty's worldview that the Obama administration is a monolith on every issue, all the way down to the local bureaucrats.
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:28 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:So, that's that. I know you're trying to twist their reasonable advice into "ObamaCare menya shmenya hrm hrm!," but it's not working.


It threatens Phatscotty's worldview that the Obama administration is a monolith on every issue, all the way down to the local bureaucrats.


PS should follow-up with two examples of superb bureaucrats working for RomneyCare.
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:04 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:"any reasonable person would make a similar decision for themselves" Someone advising you to lie in order to obtain more money/benefits is something else altogether.


Actually, the first example is someone giving advice so that the person can become less victimized by the IRS. I see this as a good thing.

The second is more difficult to justify because insurance companies themselves don't threaten to trample you if you don't pay, but the definition of "smoker" can be vague. I've seen CDC studies defining 'smoker' as someone who smokes at least 2 cigarettes per day, so if you smoke one a day, you're not a smoker.

Also, if you were a smoker for 4 years, then recently have not smoked within a year, should you say that you were a smoker thus face higher prices? To be honest, I'd opt for "no, I'm not a smoker," and I'd tell anyone else to do the same.

I'd be less inclined to encourage the heavy smokers to outright lie.

So, that's that. I know you're trying to twist their reasonable advice into "ObamaCare menya shmenya hrm hrm!," but it's not working.


the person should ask if you are a smoker, and then record your answer.

next question
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Re: ObamaCare - Share What's Happening in Your State

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:46 pm

Phatscotty wrote:A couple tidbits about Minnesota. Rochester (where the Rochester Mayo clinic is) residents only have ONE option with Obamacare. I hope it's affordable!!!

Another weird thing

Image

There is a river that separates Minnesota from Wisconsin, and people on the Wisconsin side of the river have premiums that average more than double than on the Minnesota side. This is a perfect example of how buying across state lines would drive competition and lower prices But now people who really need insurance in Wisconsin will have to physically move to Minnesota....if they want coverage they can actually afford. Obamacare is doing the complete opposite in Wisconsin and Rochester Minnesota of what it was intended to do. shocker, I know.


http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/201 ... it_to.html

And it's worth emphasizing in that regard that if you look at leading conservative ideas for reforming the health insurance system, they also will cause people to lose their existing insurance plans. Because that's what happens when you reform things. They change! One thing that Mitt Romney said on the campaign trail and that congressional Republicans repeatedly emphasized during the Affordable Care Act debate was that insurance companies should be allowed to sell policies across state lines.* That would be a major change to the way the system works, and it would cause massive disruption to plans people are currently happy with. The rationale for the proposal is this: Different states regulate insurance differently, mandating that different things be covered. The more things you mandate, the more expensive insurance becomes. So if you let insurers sell plans across state lines, then plans from less expensive, less mandated states will begin to gobble up market share in more expensive, more mandated states.

Step one, in other words, is that people with the pricier, more mandate-heavy plans switch out into cheaper plans with less coverage. What's step two? Well, it's that everyone for whom the pricier plans were a good deal loses his or her insurance as the risk pool unravels.

In other words, it's the Obamacare effect in reverse. Instead of transferring resources from the healthy to the sick and causing certain classes of bad plans to vanish, the conservative proposal would transfer resources from the sick to the healthy and cause certain classes of good plans to vanish.
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:40 am

Metsfanmax wrote:the conservative proposal would transfer resources from the sick to the healthy


Why is that bad?

EDIT - I mean in the context of PS's argument. I know why it's bad.
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Re: ObamaCare - 41 to 52 Million Could Lose Insurance

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:37 am

Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:"any reasonable person would make a similar decision for themselves" Someone advising you to lie in order to obtain more money/benefits is something else altogether.


Actually, the first example is someone giving advice so that the person can become less victimized by the IRS. I see this as a good thing.

The second is more difficult to justify because insurance companies themselves don't threaten to trample you if you don't pay, but the definition of "smoker" can be vague. I've seen CDC studies defining 'smoker' as someone who smokes at least 2 cigarettes per day, so if you smoke one a day, you're not a smoker.

Also, if you were a smoker for 4 years, then recently have not smoked within a year, should you say that you were a smoker thus face higher prices? To be honest, I'd opt for "no, I'm not a smoker," and I'd tell anyone else to do the same.

I'd be less inclined to encourage the heavy smokers to outright lie.

So, that's that. I know you're trying to twist their reasonable advice into "ObamaCare menya shmenya hrm hrm!," but it's not working.


the person should ask if you are a smoker, and then record your answer.

next question


Careful. If you dig in your heels too deep, you won't be able to go anywhere.
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Re: ObamaCare - F.U.B.A.R.

Postby Night Strike on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:29 pm

Obama has illegally authorized insurance companies to offer illegal insurance plans that have already dropped because of their illegality.
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Re: ObamaCare - F.U.B.A.R.

Postby Symmetry on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:34 pm

Night Strike wrote:Obama has illegally authorized insurance companies to offer illegal insurance plans that have already dropped because of their illegality.


I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
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Re: ObamaCare - F.U.B.A.R.

Postby Night Strike on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:36 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Obama has illegally authorized insurance companies to offer illegal insurance plans that have already dropped because of their illegality.


I have no idea what you're trying to say here.


Obama unilaterally stated today that insurance companies can offer plans that Obamacare has deemed to be illegal. He doesn't have the authority to change a law using a speech. He's president, not a dictator.
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Re: ObamaCare - F.U.B.A.R.

Postby Symmetry on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:40 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Obama has illegally authorized insurance companies to offer illegal insurance plans that have already dropped because of their illegality.


I have no idea what you're trying to say here.


Obama unilaterally stated today that insurance companies can offer plans that Obamacare has deemed to be illegal.


Such as? You're kinda flying evidence free here.
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Re: ObamaCare - F.U.B.A.R.

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:44 pm

The problem is during the whole shut down, Obama defended his position saying the law is the law, it was passed in Congress, and upheld by the Supreme Court. Ya see, it was out of Obama's hands.

We only have to remember what the supporters were screaming..."IT'S THE LAW!!!!! YA CAN'T JUST CHANGE WHAT LAWS YA DON'T LIKE!" YOU CAN'T DEMAND RANSOM LIKE THIS OVER CHANGING A LAW!"




Fouad Ajami: When the Obama Magic Died

The current troubles of the Obama presidency can be read back into its beginnings. Rule by personal charisma has met its proper fate. The spell has been broken, and the magician stands exposed. We need no pollsters to tell us of the loss of faith in Mr. Obama's policies—and, more significantly, in the man himself. Charisma is like that. Crowds come together and they project their needs onto an imagined redeemer. The redeemer leaves the crowd to its imagination: For as long as the charismatic moment lasts—a year, an era—the redeemer is above and beyond judgment. He glides through crises, he knits together groups of varied, often clashing, interests. Always there is that magical moment, and its beauty, as a reference point.

Mr. Obama gave voice to this sentiment in a speech on Nov. 6 in Dallas: "Sometimes I worry because everybody had such a fun experience in '08, at least that's how it seemed in retrospect. And, 'yes we can,' and the slogans and the posters, et cetera, sometimes I worry that people forget change in this country has always been hard." It's a pity we can't stay in that moment, says the redeemer: The fault lies in the country itself—everywhere, that is, except in the magician's performance.

Forgive the personal reference, but from the very beginning of Mr. Obama's astonishing rise, I felt that I was witnessing something old and familiar. My advantage owed nothing to any mastery of American political history. I was guided by my immersion in the political history of the Arab world and of a life studying Third World societies.

In 2008, seeing the Obama crowds in Portland, Denver and St. Louis spurred memories of the spectacles that had attended the rise and fall of Arab political pretenders. I had lived through the era of the Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser. He had emerged from a military cabal to become a demigod, immune to judgment. His followers clung to him even as he led the Arabs to a catastrophic military defeat in the Six Day War of 1967. He issued a kind of apology for his performance. But his reign was never about policies and performance. It was about political magic.

The Obama charisma was working well in June 2008 at a Bristow, Va., campaign stop. Agence France-Presse/Getty Images

In trying to grapple with, and write about, the Obama phenomenon, I found guidance in a book of breathtaking erudition, "Crowds and Power" (1962) by the Nobel laureate Elias Canetti. Born in Bulgaria in 1905 and educated in Vienna and Britain, Canetti was unmatched in his understanding of the passions, and the delusions, of crowds. The crowd is a "mysterious and universal phenomenon," he writes. It forms where there was nothing before. There comes a moment when "all who belong to the crowd get rid of their difference and feel equal." Density gives the illusion of equality, a blessed moment when "no one is greater or better than another." But the crowd also has a presentiment of its own disintegration, a time when those who belong to the crowd "creep back under their private burdens."

Five years on, we can still recall how the Obama coalition was formed. There were the African-Americans justifiably proud of one of their own. There were upper-class white professionals who were drawn to the candidate's "cool." There were Latinos swayed by the promise of immigration reform. The white working class in the Rust Belt was the last bloc to embrace Mr. Obama—he wasn't one of them, but they put their reservations aside during an economic storm and voted for the redistributive state and its protections. There were no economic or cultural bonds among this coalition. There was the new leader, all things to all people.

A nemesis awaited the promise of this new presidency: Mr. Obama would turn out to be among the most polarizing of American leaders. No, it wasn't his race, as Harry Reid would contend, that stirred up the opposition to him. It was his exalted views of himself, and his mission. The sharp lines were sharp between those who raised his banners and those who objected to his policies.

America holds presidential elections, we know. But Mr. Obama took his victory as a plebiscite on his reading of the American social contract. A president who constantly reminded his critics that he had won at the ballot box was bound to deepen the opposition of his critics.

A leader who set out to remake the health-care system in the country, a sixth of the national economy, on a razor-thin majority with no support whatsoever from the opposition party, misunderstood the nature of democratic politics. An election victory is the beginning of things, not the culmination. With Air Force One and the other prerogatives of office come the need for compromise, and for the disputations of democracy. A president who sought consensus would have never left his agenda on Capitol Hill in the hands of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi.

Mr. Obama has shown scant regard for precedent in American history. To him, and to the coterie around him, his presidency was a radical discontinuity in American politics. There is no evidence in the record that Mr. Obama read, with discernment and appreciation, of the ordeal and struggles of his predecessors. At best there was a willful reading of that history. Early on, he was Abraham Lincoln resurrected (the new president, who hailed from Illinois, took the oath of office on the Lincoln Bible). He had been sworn in during an economic crisis, and thus he was FDR restored to the White House. He was stylish with two young children, so the Kennedy precedent was on offer.

In the oddest of twists, Mr. Obama claimed that his foreign policy was in the mold of Dwight Eisenhower's . But Eisenhower knew war and peace, and the foreign world held him in high regard.

During his first campaign, Mr. Obama had paid tribute to Ronald Reagan as a "transformational" president and hinted that he aspired to a presidency of that kind. But the Reagan presidency was about America, and never about Ronald Reagan. Reagan was never a scold or a narcissist. He stood in awe of America, and of its capacity for renewal. There was forgiveness in Reagan, right alongside the belief in the things that mattered about America—free people charting their own path.

If Barack Obama seems like a man alone, with nervous Democrats up for re-election next year running for cover, and away from him, this was the world he made. No advisers of stature can question his policies; the price of access in the Obama court is quiescence before the leader's will. The imperial presidency is in full bloom.

There are no stars in the Obama cabinet today, men and women of independent stature and outlook. It was after a walk on the White House grounds with his chief of staff, Denis McDonough, that Mr. Obama called off the attacks on the Syrian regime that he had threatened. If he had taken that walk with Henry Kissinger or George Shultz, one of those skilled statesmen might have explained to him the consequences of so abject a retreat. But Mr. Obama needs no sage advice, he rules through political handlers.

Valerie Jarrett, the president's most trusted, probably most powerful, aide, once said in admiration that Mr. Obama has been bored his whole life. The implication was that he is above things, a man alone, and anointed. Perhaps this moment—a presidency coming apart, the incompetent social engineering of an entire health-care system—will now claim Mr. Obama's attention.

— Mr. Ajami, a senior fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution, is the author, most recently, of "The Syrian Rebellion" ( Hoover Press, 2012).
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Re: ObamaCare - F.U.B.A.R.

Postby Symmetry on Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:01 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Fouad Ajami: When the Obama Magic Died

I was a cheerleader for the war in Iraq, and can't get over the idea that Dubya isn't the Pres anymore.

— Mr. Ajami, a senior fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution, is the author, most recently, of "The Syrian Rebellion" ( Hoover Press, 2012).


I think I simplified that to the bare bones.
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Re: ObamaCare - F.U.B.A.R.

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:22 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Obama has illegally authorized insurance companies to offer illegal insurance plans that have already dropped because of their illegality.


I have no idea what you're trying to say here.


Obama unilaterally stated today that insurance companies can offer plans that Obamacare has deemed to be illegal.


Such as? You're kinda flying evidence free here.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/ ... 0520131114

I have to sympathize with the President here, he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. Stand by the law as written and take flak for breaking his earlier promises. Change the law in response to those people and take flak from others for doing what he promised to do.

I'm rather skeptical that this was a good idea. There's a reason those plans no longer exist under the new system, and allowing them to continue existing presumably does damage to the efforts the law attempts to advance.
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