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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:47 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:I'll clear this up, so I don't have to address this again. It really doesn't matter if I equivocate 'position' and 'argument'. For example, "it's impossible to debate someone with constantly shifting arguments " (like this scenario). By 'your position', I mean the one you're presenting. Nothing about your motivations or who you are have affected my arguments because I don't care who you are or what your underlying motivation is (except for the stated motivation/intention in the argument).


My point is that you shouldn't be attempting to "debate someone." The goal of this discussion should not be for you to have an argument with Metsfanmax. It's to learn about various issues related to redistribution of wealth.

Metsfanmax wrote:
Anyway, your criteria would've been satisfied under the relative laissez-faire in pre-1900 USA. Was that your intention?


Did people in pre-1900 USA mostly feel obligated to share a substantial portion of their wealth with people much poorer than them?


Initially, your position was: "people should feel morally obligated to share their wealth with people who are poorer than they."

But now, you've changed the criteria. Note the italicized.

So, what's your position now? The first one or this most recent one? I can't address future positions.


Formally, my position is that people are morally obligated to share their wealth with people who are substantially poorer than them in an absolute sense. They should continue to give until the decrease in their pleasure with their lifestyle is a substantial fraction of the increase in the pleasure of the person receiving the wealth. For example, I think that a person with a salary of $100,000 could easily give 10% of their income without fundamentally impacting their way of life, while simultaneously doubling the income of 30 people in Africa.


They don't because the government already takes massive amounts of money from them in the name of helping the poor (even though they haven't helped the poor for 50 years).


You mean, the poor in the U.S.? What about the poor in Africa? The US government spends a pittance on that relative to GDP.

Besides, why are YOU living a life of having a computer, and spending tons of time on a gaming website? Shouldn't you be giving all that to people who are worse off than you since that's your standard of someone having only $10 would be better off with your $10?


Yes, I am being selfish and not acting to the full standard that my moral system dictates. But it does give me something to strive for, and I'm slowly trying to improve the amount I donate. This is not unreasonable; people pick moral systems all the time that they don't fully live up to, as a way to guide them (i.e., people often think that Christ was a good role model, but how many of us are Christ-like in all of our actions? Does that mean that we should give up on him?).
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:55 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I'll clear this up, so I don't have to address this again. It really doesn't matter if I equivocate 'position' and 'argument'. For example, "it's impossible to debate someone with constantly shifting arguments " (like this scenario). By 'your position', I mean the one you're presenting. Nothing about your motivations or who you are have affected my arguments because I don't care who you are or what your underlying motivation is (except for the stated motivation/intention in the argument).


My point is that you shouldn't be attempting to "debate someone." The goal of this discussion should not be for you to have an argument with Metsfanmax. It's to learn about various issues related to redistribution of wealth.


Whoa, lemme recover from the constant position-shifting. I'm familiar with redistribution arguments. I know how to improve them, but why debate with myself? I'm still going to pressure you to make more coherent and valid arguments. If you feel some emotional attachment to your argument, then that's on you.

Metsfanmax wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Anyway, your criteria would've been satisfied under the relative laissez-faire in pre-1900 USA. Was that your intention?


Did people in pre-1900 USA mostly feel obligated to share a substantial portion of their wealth with people much poorer than them?


Initially, your position was: "people should feel morally obligated to share their wealth with people who are poorer than they."

But now, you've changed the criteria. Note the italicized.

So, what's your position now? The first one or this most recent one? I can't address future positions.


Formally, my position is that people are morally obligated to share their wealth with people who are substantially poorer than them in an absolute sense. They should continue to give until the decrease in their pleasure with their lifestyle is a substantial fraction of the increase in the pleasure of the person receiving the wealth. For example, I think that a person with a salary of $100,000 could easily give 10% of their income without fundamentally impacting their way of life, while simultaneously doubling the income of 30 people in Africa.


You mean people in Africa who make less than $2 a day? Or the homeless guy in the US down the street? One is 'absolutely' poor within the US; the other is 'absolutely' poor within the world (but he's richer than the guy with <$1 per day).

Well, we know the measurement standard for that is inappropriate for science and inaccurate for laypersons. You disagree for reasons which weren't convincing. So, we'll skip that and focus here:

It could easily follow that one must place the most poor above their children, their friends, and even themselves. So, you should increase your income, lower your time with your friends, lower your investment in your own social capital, and lower time spent mating in order to donate to others. Why? One should continue to give until the decrease in their pleasure with their lifestyle is a substantial fraction of the increase in the pleasure of the person receiving the wealth. When do you know to stop? I don't, so (1) it's a silly standard, and (2) to get around it, why not assume each person knows their best optimum within a voluntary system of donations?

I agree with italicized if that's the only expenditure. Of course, when you add 50% in marginal tax rates, then it won't work because there'd be no need to donate. For example, a substantial portion of the 50% in taxes goes to poor people, so it will satisfy that unknown interpersonal utility requirement.


More importantly, charity can only go so far in helping people, so there's other means to help people (employing them, bringing them to the US, analyzing their country to understand what's wrong, analyzing current policies which are well-intended yet detrimental to them, etc.). I'm sure you'd agree with that, right? Why only focus on redistribution? Why not focus on how wealth is created?
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:10 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Formally, my position is that people are morally obligated to share their wealth with people who are substantially poorer than them in an absolute sense. They should continue to give until the decrease in their pleasure with their lifestyle is a substantial fraction of the increase in the pleasure of the person receiving the wealth. For example, I think that a person with a salary of $100,000 could easily give 10% of their income without fundamentally impacting their way of life, while simultaneously doubling the income of 30 people in Africa.


You mean people in Africa who make less than $2 a day? Or the homeless guy in the US down the street? One is 'absolutely' poor within the US; the other is 'absolutely' poor within the world (but he's richer than the guy with <$1 per day).


Utility is maximized if you give to the people in Africa rather than the people in the U.S.

Well, we know the measurement standard for that is inappropriate for science and inaccurate for laypersons. You disagree for reasons which weren't convincing.


I have not attempted to promote a measurement standard for that. Each person must decide for themselves at what point giving more money starts to seriously infringe on their fundamental way of life. What I am trying to do is convince them that 1) they should give within that framework and that 2) giving up going to the movies and buying unnecessary toys does not infringe upon their way of life. In fact, there are many ways to alter one's consumption profile to decrease total costs and give more to charity, and giving 5% or 10% is not that hard if you want to do it.

It could easily follow that one must place the most poor above their children, their friends, and even themselves. So, you should increase your income, lower your time with your friends, lower your investment in your own social capital, and lower time spent mating in order to donate to others. Why?


Because that's what acting morally is about, if you are interested in maximizing utility. If I buy my child the newest gadget rather than having them read books (say), I am implicitly saying that it is better for the world for my child to have the toy, rather than for a person in Africa to have food for half a year. Why? Because they happen to be my child? Does that make them somehow more worthy of these funds than the person in Africa?

One should continue to give until the decrease in their pleasure with their lifestyle is a substantial fraction of the increase in the pleasure of the person receiving the wealth. When do you know to stop? I don't, so (1) it's a silly standard, and (2) to get around it, why not assume each person knows their best optimum within a voluntary system of donations?


Each person decides for themselves when to stop. They balance their obligations under the moral system with the other obligations in their life (paying the bills, buying groceries, etc.) and decide how moral they want to be (essentially). If you believe in acting morally, then with time you will try to shift more of your wealth towards the former. Surely there are demands of utilitarianism that very few are prepared to accept, since humans are irrational, self-interested creatures by their nature (and it is this which makes utilitarianism meaningful in the first place -- people want to experience pleasure and avoid pain). That doesn't negate the fact that any action to increase utility is morally commendable.

Also, charity can only go so far in helping people, so there's other means to help people (employing them, bringing them to the US, analyzing their country to understand what's wrong, analyzing current policies which are well-intended yet detrimental to them, etc.). I'm sure you'd agree with that, right? Why only focus on redistribution? Why not focus on how wealth is created?


I don't only focus on redistribution. My argument is that when redistribution is not in conflict with other methods of wealth creation (like extending markets to developing nations), then you should do it.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:07 pm

In other words, people should be morally obligated to donate some amount of their goods to very poor people since this increases the net utility of the world.

Let's address the situation where donating can conflict with the means of creating wealth for the very poor.

To be clear, a donation is a transfer of wealth. In terms of wealth alone, this is zero-sum. In terms of utility, this is positive-sum (given that the donation is voluntary, of course). An exchange is a creation of wealth because in an exchange ex-ante each party values the other party's good more so than their own good. After the exchange, each party has increased their value (i.e. wealth). In terms of either wealth or utility, they are both positive-sum. We're assuming that utility is an increasing function in wealth and donations.

Now, suppose you pay $10 for a T-shirt that's been imported from an Indonesian 'sweat-shop'. Your $10 becomes distributed among the chain of suppliers--from the retailer, shipper, sweat-shopper, and the suppliers of labor within each market. Consequently, your exchange increases the net wealth of the world, and net utility has increased since additional wealth causes utility to increase. Net wealth: >$10--in terms of total value. Net utility: +something + wealth (i.e. the value created from exchange).

If you were instead to donate $10 to one of the many workers in the sweat-shop, then you forego the opportunity to increase the wealth and utility of all the other very poor workers in that sweat-shop as well as everyone (of varying wealth) in the production process. In other words, donating has a cost (the opportunity cost), and an exchange has an opportunity cost (from whatever else you could've done with $10). In this example, net wealth: $0. Net utility: +something + 0(wealth).


In short, since we live in a world of scarcity every action of ours incurs a cost. In the trade-off between donating and trading in terms of maximizing utility, trading increases utility on average more so than donation. So, why not opt for 100% trade and 0% donation*?

    *tangent: and for that matter, why not advocate for the abolishment of international trade restrictions?
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Lootifer on Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:57 pm

Good discussion :) welcome back BBS.

Re: ex-ante

Isn't this the wrong way to look at the marginal utility of transactions*? Shouldn't you be looking at ex-post? And in our world i'd hazard to guess there is a reasonable difference between the two (primarily because of our sales/marketing/ticket-clipping culture).

* Though I agree it's the best way to look at the marginal wealth of transations

Re: 2nd and 3rd to last paragraphs.

Isn't net wealth creation due to the tshirt being manufactured, with the marginal cost to produce a tshirt being significantly less than the $10 price tag? For example logistics and marketing don't create any wealth. Sure you need to divide the CoP by the difference in indonesian efficiency compared to local brown paper bag efficiency but I still don't see how you can just claim >$10 in terms of net wealth.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:11 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:In other words, people should be morally obligated to donate some amount of their goods to very poor people since this increases the net utility of the world.

Let's address the situation where donating can conflict with the means of creating wealth for the very poor.

To be clear, a donation is a transfer of wealth. In terms of wealth alone, this is zero-sum. In terms of utility, this is positive-sum (given that the donation is voluntary, of course). An exchange is a creation of wealth because in an exchange ex-ante each party values the other party's good more so than their own good. After the exchange, each party has increased their value (i.e. wealth). In terms of either wealth or utility, they are both positive-sum. We're assuming that utility is an increasing function in wealth and donations.

Now, suppose you pay $10 for a T-shirt that's been imported from an Indonesian 'sweat-shop'. Your $10 becomes distributed among the chain of suppliers--from the retailer, shipper, sweat-shopper, and the suppliers of labor within each market. Consequently, your exchange increases the net wealth of the world, and net utility has increased since additional wealth causes utility to increase. Net wealth: >$10--in terms of total value. Net utility: +something + wealth (i.e. the value created from exchange).

If you were instead to donate $10 to one of the many workers in the sweat-shop, then you forego the opportunity to increase the wealth and utility of all the other very poor workers in that sweat-shop as well as everyone (of varying wealth) in the production process. In other words, donating has a cost (the opportunity cost), and an exchange has an opportunity cost (from whatever else you could've done with $10). In this example, net wealth: $0. Net utility: +something + 0(wealth).


In short, since we live in a world of scarcity every action of ours incurs a cost. In the trade-off between donating and trading in terms of maximizing utility, trading increases utility on average more so than donation. So, why not opt for 100% trade and 0% donation*?

    *tangent: and for that matter, why not advocate for the abolishment of international trade restrictions?


Your conclusion simply does not follow from your premises, for several reasons. First, you incorrectly assume that utility creation is not counted positively as part of an exchange, but this is wrong to the extent that it might make me personally happy to donate money to others. Therefore, the donation does create wealth, if we broadly count my happiness as part of the world's net wealth. (And there are practical reasons to do so -- my happiness might translate into increased productivity, say.) Second, while in the exchange I do have the T-shirt, this is offset by the costs of producing the shirt; the $10 is therefore paying the cost of labor, but if I had just donated the $10, that time could have been spent producing a T-shirt for someone else, so they get both the $10 from my donation and the $10 from somebody else buying a shirt. This assumes that the T-shirt market is not affected by my individual decision not to buy one*, which seems obvious given the number of people buying T-shirts in the U.S. Third, your argument about how only one person gets the money is a non-sequitur; if these people are of similar wealth then net utility is increased the same if I give it all to one person, or split it equally among the workers. But in either case I could just split up the money among those workers the same way, and receive the same net effect (minus the T-shirt). Fourth, in any likely scenario, a good fraction of that $10 will not make it to the poorest workers, but will stay with the managers, who don't need it as much. Fifth, there's not even an opportunity cost. We're not talking about whether someone is going to buy a bunch of T-shirts that they don't need, as an inefficient method of cash transfer to the poor, are we?

*Many of my arguments assume that we are talking about this on the typical individual level. If you are an individual with enough leverage over the market to actually change the T-shirt market, then we need to think about different ways for you to donate.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:45 pm

Lootifer wrote:Good discussion :) welcome back BBS.

Re: ex-ante

Isn't this the wrong way to look at the marginal utility of transactions*?
Shouldn't you be looking at ex-post? And in our world i'd hazard to guess there is a reasonable difference between the two (primarily because of our sales/marketing/ticket-clipping culture).

* Though I agree it's the best way to look at the marginal wealth of transations


Exchanges
The distinction between ex-ante and ex-post exchange is necessary for separating the valid claim from the unknown claim. The positive-sum gain of an ex-ante exchange is an a priori synthetic proposition. It's always true, no matter what. On the other hand, an exchange ex-post might or might not be mutually beneficial. Poor DoomYoshi later realizes that he didn't want to buy such a large box of dildos. If I use ex-ante exchanges and donations, then my conclusions follow. If I don't, then who knows.

I'm going to ignore the scenarios where ex-post exchanges are not mutually beneficial. In turn, I'm also ignoring the ex-post donations which become negative-sum. For example, farmer Y got a $10 donation; everyone found out; so he got robbed. There's too many hypothetical conditions of unknown magnitudes, but we can still nitpick:

    Although the simplifying assumptions might not be satisfying, I'm not going to go around measuring all ex-post values. Besides, in a competitive market, losses would result from too many bad, ex-post exchanges for one's product, but the profit motive would tend to alleviate this problem until MC = MB, so I'm not that worried. :D


Utility
This might be the wrong way to look at interpersonal comparisons of marginal utility, but I'm just assuming utility is an increasing function of wealth and 'whatever else'. For example, when people realize that buying cheap, Indonesian products actually helps very poor people, then the exchange itself can increase one's utility--as well as the wealth created from the exchange. Whoo! If so, then donating could result in less net utility since the opportunity cost of a donation would be greater in terms of utility. OC = T-Shirt, contributing to the payment of poor people's labor, loving that exchange.

Nevertheless, utility is still a rabbithole because there's too many unknown variables, anyone can posit pretty much anything, and it's impossible to sufficiently measure across individuals. Even though we can make broad comparisons like "I think the average CC user's utility is higher than the average Chadian's utility," that doesn't matter. It doesn't help us find the optimal point of donating v. trading in regard to maximizing world utility. It's just philosophical hand-waving.

    Between you and me, Kaldor-Hicks efficiency analysis is superior because at least it's feasible and tractable. Even though KH analysis can have bad moral implications, Pareto efficiency can be even worse. Nevertheless, at least those frameworks take ya somewhere.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:50 pm

Lootifer wrote:Re: 2nd and 3rd to last paragraphs.

Isn't net wealth creation due to the tshirt being manufactured, with the marginal cost to produce a tshirt being significantly less than the $10 price tag? For example logistics and marketing don't create any wealth. Sure you need to divide the CoP by the difference in indonesian efficiency compared to local brown paper bag efficiency but I still don't see how you can just claim >$10 in terms of net wealth.


I'm equating "value created by exchanges" with "wealth." Wealth is only a means for consumption and savings/investment.

Wealth can't be created only by production because if no one buys the product, then obviously wealth is being lost. The opportunity cost of that investment has exceeded the net present value of expected streams of income from producing stuff nobody wants. Even if the marginal input costs were less than Price, it wouldn't matter since the final good isn't being bought.

The creation of value arises from the capturing of greater consumer and producer surplus (a.k.a. surplus value). Exchanges enable this, and production can contribute but only if the goods are ultimately exchanged. To be more precise, for example, consider the exchanges of capital goods over the past ten years. That would create wealth, but if there's some recession (a la malinvestment), then that wealth is destroyed.

The measurement of aggregate output (manufactured goods, or GDP) doesn't count the destruction of wealth from recessions and natural disasters. In fact, rebuilding after a disaster increases GDP. Yay!, more 'wealth'! So, the production of a T-shirt isn't automatically wealth-increasing--regardless of MC and Price. To be even more annoying precise, consumption is the destruction of wealth. If you eat an apple, you're down an apple--but presumably up in utility. (I gave Mets enough to deal with though).


Competitive equilibrium prices reveal society's value of that product. At equilibrium, P = MC = MB. If the Price = MC, then people are happy that those inputs are being used in such a degree for the creation of those goods. Wealth is being maximized. If MC > P, then those inputs have more valuable alternative uses. Wealth is being wasted. If MC < P, then those inputs aren't producing enough of that good. Wealth is being lost because the people want more! Marginal cost curves reflect opportunity costs. Market prices, e.g. $10 t-shirt, do not include the Full Price (e.g. transaction costs, time and resources spent to drive to the store and get the shirt, etc.), which is completely reflected in the competitive equilibrium price.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:52 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:In other words, people should be morally obligated to donate some amount of their goods to very poor people since this increases the net utility of the world.

Let's address the situation where donating can conflict with the means of creating wealth for the very poor.

To be clear, a donation is a transfer of wealth. In terms of wealth alone, this is zero-sum. In terms of utility, this is positive-sum (given that the donation is voluntary, of course). An exchange is a creation of wealth because in an exchange ex-ante each party values the other party's good more so than their own good. After the exchange, each party has increased their value (i.e. wealth). In terms of either wealth or utility, they are both positive-sum. We're assuming that utility is an increasing function in wealth and donations.

Now, suppose you pay $10 for a T-shirt that's been imported from an Indonesian 'sweat-shop'. Your $10 becomes distributed among the chain of suppliers--from the retailer, shipper, sweat-shopper, and the suppliers of labor within each market. Consequently, your exchange increases the net wealth of the world, and net utility has increased since additional wealth causes utility to increase. Net wealth: >$10--in terms of total value. Net utility: +something + wealth (i.e. the value created from exchange).

If you were instead to donate $10 to one of the many workers in the sweat-shop, then you forego the opportunity to increase the wealth and utility of all the other very poor workers in that sweat-shop as well as everyone (of varying wealth) in the production process. In other words, donating has a cost (the opportunity cost), and an exchange has an opportunity cost (from whatever else you could've done with $10). In this example, net wealth: $0. Net utility: +something + 0(wealth).


In short, since we live in a world of scarcity every action of ours incurs a cost. In the trade-off between donating and trading in terms of maximizing utility, trading increases utility on average more so than donation. So, why not opt for 100% trade and 0% donation*?

    *tangent: and for that matter, why not advocate for the abolishment of international trade restrictions?


Your conclusion simply does not follow from your premises, for several reasons. First, you incorrectly assume that utility creation is not counted positively as part of an exchange, but this is wrong to the extent that it might make me personally happy to donate money to others. Therefore, the donation does create wealth, if we broadly count my happiness as part of the world's net wealth. (And there are practical reasons to do so -- my happiness might translate into increased productivity, say.) Second, while in the exchange I do have the T-shirt, this is offset by the costs of producing the shirt; the $10 is therefore paying the cost of labor, but if I had just donated the $10, that time could have been spent producing a T-shirt for someone else, so they get both the $10 from my donation and the $10 from somebody else buying a shirt. This assumes that the T-shirt market is not affected by my individual decision not to buy one*, which seems obvious given the number of people buying T-shirts in the U.S. Third, your argument about how only one person gets the money is a non-sequitur; if these people are of similar wealth then net utility is increased the same if I give it all to one person, or split it equally among the workers. But in either case I could just split up the money among those workers the same way, and receive the same net effect (minus the T-shirt). Fourth, in any likely scenario, a good fraction of that $10 will not make it to the poorest workers, but will stay with the managers, who don't need it as much. Fifth, there's not even an opportunity cost. We're not talking about whether someone is going to buy a bunch of T-shirts that they don't need, as an inefficient method of cash transfer to the poor, are we?

*Many of my arguments assume that we are talking about this on the typical individual level. If you are an individual with enough leverage over the market to actually change the T-shirt market, then we need to think about different ways for you to donate.


A careful reading of the following can be used to update your criticism:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=93718&view=unread#p4416187
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=93718&view=unread#p4416189
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:16 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:In other words, people should be morally obligated to donate some amount of their goods to very poor people since this increases the net utility of the world.

Let's address the situation where donating can conflict with the means of creating wealth for the very poor.

To be clear, a donation is a transfer of wealth. In terms of wealth alone, this is zero-sum. In terms of utility, this is positive-sum (given that the donation is voluntary, of course). An exchange is a creation of wealth because in an exchange ex-ante each party values the other party's good more so than their own good. After the exchange, each party has increased their value (i.e. wealth). In terms of either wealth or utility, they are both positive-sum. We're assuming that utility is an increasing function in wealth and donations.

Now, suppose you pay $10 for a T-shirt that's been imported from an Indonesian 'sweat-shop'. Your $10 becomes distributed among the chain of suppliers--from the retailer, shipper, sweat-shopper, and the suppliers of labor within each market. Consequently, your exchange increases the net wealth of the world, and net utility has increased since additional wealth causes utility to increase. Net wealth: >$10--in terms of total value. Net utility: +something + wealth (i.e. the value created from exchange).

If you were instead to donate $10 to one of the many workers in the sweat-shop, then you forego the opportunity to increase the wealth and utility of all the other very poor workers in that sweat-shop as well as everyone (of varying wealth) in the production process. In other words, donating has a cost (the opportunity cost), and an exchange has an opportunity cost (from whatever else you could've done with $10). In this example, net wealth: $0. Net utility: +something + 0(wealth).


In short, since we live in a world of scarcity every action of ours incurs a cost. In the trade-off between donating and trading in terms of maximizing utility, trading increases utility on average more so than donation. So, why not opt for 100% trade and 0% donation*?

    *tangent: and for that matter, why not advocate for the abolishment of international trade restrictions?


Your conclusion simply does not follow from your premises, for several reasons. First, you incorrectly assume that utility creation is not counted positively as part of an exchange, but this is wrong to the extent that it might make me personally happy to donate money to others. Therefore, the donation does create wealth, if we broadly count my happiness as part of the world's net wealth. (And there are practical reasons to do so -- my happiness might translate into increased productivity, say.) Second, while in the exchange I do have the T-shirt, this is offset by the costs of producing the shirt; the $10 is therefore paying the cost of labor, but if I had just donated the $10, that time could have been spent producing a T-shirt for someone else, so they get both the $10 from my donation and the $10 from somebody else buying a shirt. This assumes that the T-shirt market is not affected by my individual decision not to buy one*, which seems obvious given the number of people buying T-shirts in the U.S. Third, your argument about how only one person gets the money is a non-sequitur; if these people are of similar wealth then net utility is increased the same if I give it all to one person, or split it equally among the workers. But in either case I could just split up the money among those workers the same way, and receive the same net effect (minus the T-shirt). Fourth, in any likely scenario, a good fraction of that $10 will not make it to the poorest workers, but will stay with the managers, who don't need it as much. Fifth, there's not even an opportunity cost. We're not talking about whether someone is going to buy a bunch of T-shirts that they don't need, as an inefficient method of cash transfer to the poor, are we?

*Many of my arguments assume that we are talking about this on the typical individual level. If you are an individual with enough leverage over the market to actually change the T-shirt market, then we need to think about different ways for you to donate.


A careful reading of the following can be used to update your criticism:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=93718&view=unread#p4416187
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=93718&view=unread#p4416189


Before we go further, I need to understand the argument. Are you saying that if I want to give $500 to the poor, I should buy 50 T-shirts instead of just giving them the money directly?
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:53 pm

That route might maximize net utility greater than the $500 donation, but with utility = f(wealth,whatever else), then we can conclude either way.

Consider this: what explains the rapid increase of wealth from the mid 1700s to today? And why are some countries richer than other countries?

Are the rich countries richer because of donations? Or is there something else which more heavily drives the origins and continued growth of their wealth?
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:01 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:That route might maximize net utility greater than the $500 donation, but with utility = f(wealth,whatever else), then we can conclude either way.


I'm asking because you're insisting that there's an opportunity cost, but I am talking about donations that go above and beyond a person's necessary expenditures. I'm saying that if you have $500 of disposable income, you produce the most utility by donating it directly to poor people. So it's important to distinguish between disposable income, and restructuring necessary expenditures to benefit poor people.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:43 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:That route might maximize net utility greater than the $500 donation, but with utility = f(wealth,whatever else), then we can conclude either way.


I'm asking because you're insisting that there's an opportunity cost, but I am talking about donations that go above and beyond a person's necessary expenditures. I'm saying that if you have $500 of disposable income, you produce the most utility by donating it directly to poor people. So it's important to distinguish between disposable income, and restructuring necessary expenditures to benefit poor people.


With any action, there is an opportunity cost. An opportunity cost is the foregoing of the next best alternative. It serves as a standard for determining one's utility-maximizing action. For example, when I choose to respond to your post, I incur an opportunity cost, like doing something more important. Nevertheless, the value of my current action is greater than the OC, so in this case I'm maximizing my utility. If OC > Value(current action), then I'm failing to maximize utility; I'm being inefficient, thus being wasteful.


Assume everyone in the US seeks to maximize utility, and they face a series of choices between exchanging and donating. It follows that there's an OC for each choice. To simplify, let's assume Captain Picard is almost at the optimal point between trading and donating. He must choose between 1 trade or 1 donation. If he chooses correctly, he attains that optimum. If he chooses poorly, he moves an additional choice away from the optimum. If Picard chooses to trade, he foregos the net utility of donating. If he chooses to donate, he foregos the net utility of trading.

In other words, Picard's utility = f(wealth,whatever else).

(A) Donate to 1 person, thus OC: trade.
MU = f(-Marginal wealth, (?)Marginal whatever else).
OC: MU = f(+MW, (?)MSE).

(B) Trade and get 1 good in exchange for $(change)MW, thus OC: donate.
MU = f(+MW, (?)MSE).
OC: MU = f(-MW, (?)MSE).


Note how each decision incurs an opportunity cost, so Picard can fail to maximize utility if he chooses incorrectly.

What's the problem? We don't know the marginal change in utility of "something else" (whatever that list of variables may be, which differs for everyone), so we can't really say which option would maximize Picard's utility and guide him to the optimum.


Now, we'll complicate the problem by adding 3rd party effects.

(A) Donate to 1 person, thus OC: trade.

MU = f(-MW, (?)MSE) _plus_ Donee's MU = f*(+MW, (?)MWE).

OC: foregone MU = f(+MW, (?)MSE) _plus_ Everyone's* MU = f*(+MW, (?)MWE).


(B) Trade and get 1 good, thus OC: donate.

MU = f(+MW, (?)MSE) _plus_ Everyone's* MU = f*(+MW, (?)MWE)

OC: foregone MU = f(-MW, (?)MSE) _plus_ Donee's MU = f*(+MW, (?)MWE).


    *Everyone who's involved in the production process which led to that one good.

What's the problem? We don't know which option maximizes net utility for the whole world because of the same problem with "something else."


Therefore, your $500 donation route might maximize net utility greater than the $500 spent on trade, but with utility = f(wealth,whatever else), then we can conclude either way.

If the trade maximizes net utility, then donations fail to maximize net utility. And vice-versa.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:44 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:That route might maximize net utility greater than the $500 donation, but with utility = f(wealth,whatever else), then we can conclude either way.


I'm asking because you're insisting that there's an opportunity cost, but I am talking about donations that go above and beyond a person's necessary expenditures. I'm saying that if you have $500 of disposable income, you produce the most utility by donating it directly to poor people. So it's important to distinguish between disposable income, and restructuring necessary expenditures to benefit poor people.


With any action, there is an opportunity cost. An opportunity cost is the foregoing of the next best alternative. It serves as a standard for determining one's utility-maximizing action. For example, when I choose to respond to your post, I incur an opportunity cost, like doing something more important. Nevertheless, the value of my current action is greater than the OC, so in this case I'm maximizing my utility. If OC > Value(current action), then I'm failing to maximize utility; I'm being inefficient, thus being wasteful.


Assume everyone seeks to maximize utility, and they face a series of choices between exchanging and donating. It follows that there's an OC for each choice. To simplify, let's assume Captain Picard is almost at the optimal point between trading and donating. He must choose between 1 trade or 1 donation. If he chooses correctly, he attains that optimum. If he chooses poorly, he moves an additional choice away from the optimum. If Picard chooses to trade, he foregos the net utility of donating. If he chooses to donate, he foregos the net utility of trading.

In other words, Picard's utility = f(wealth,whatever else).

(A) Donate to 1 person, thus OC: trade.
MU = f(-Marginal wealth, (?)Marginal whatever else).
OC: MU = f(+MW, (?)MSE).

(B) Trade and get 1 good in exchange for $(change)MW, thus OC: donate.
MU = f(+MW, (?)MSE).
OC: MU = f(-MW, (?)MSE).


Note how each decision incurs an opportunity cost, so Picard can fail to maximize utility if he chooses incorrectly.

What's the problem? We don't know the marginal change in utility of "something else" (whatever that list of variables may be, which differs for everyone), so we can't really say which option would maximize Picard's utility and guide him to the optimum.


Now, we'll complicate the problem by adding 3rd party effects.

(A) Donate to 1 person, thus OC: trade.

MU = f(-MW, (?)MSE) _plus_ Donee's MU = f*(+MW, (?)MWE).

OC: foregone MU = f(+MW, (?)MSE) _plus_ Everyone's* MU = f*(+MW, (?)MWE).


(B) Trade and get 1 good, thus OC: donate.

MU = f(+MW, (?)MSE) _plus_ Everyone's* MU = f*(+MW, (?)MWE)

OC: foregone MU = f(-MW, (?)MSE) _plus_ Donee's MU = f*(+MW, (?)MWE).


    *Everyone who's involved in the production process which led to that one good.

What's the problem?

(1) We don't know which option maximizes net utility for the whole world because of the same problem with "something else."

(2) Donating to poor person X might result in a net decrease in utility because you're foregoing the opportunity to trade with others--including poor people--who could've experienced greater utilities than person X. Although the $500 is distributed across a long chain of suppliers and demanders, it contributes to the maintaince of that production process. This increases the likelihood of continued streams of income. You can scoff at this all you like, but you'll be scoffing on all their utilities.


Therefore, your $500 donation choice might maximize net utility greater than the $500 spent on trade, but with utility = f(wealth,whatever else), then we can conclude either way.

If the trade maximizes net utility, then donations fail to maximize net utility. And vice-versa.


It seems we're at a conundrum, but there is an answer. It's obtained by thinking about the following:

What explains the rapid increase of wealth from the mid 1700s to today? And why are some countries richer than other countries?

Are the rich countries richer because of donations? Or is there something else which more heavily drives the origins and continued growth of their wealth?

(Hint: it's hardly donations).
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:58 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:That route might maximize net utility greater than the $500 donation, but with utility = f(wealth,whatever else), then we can conclude either way.


I'm asking because you're insisting that there's an opportunity cost, but I am talking about donations that go above and beyond a person's necessary expenditures. I'm saying that if you have $500 of disposable income, you produce the most utility by donating it directly to poor people. So it's important to distinguish between disposable income, and restructuring necessary expenditures to benefit poor people.


With any action, there is an opportunity cost. An opportunity cost is the foregoing of the next best alternative. It serves as a standard for determining one's utility-maximizing action. For example, when I choose to respond to your post, I incur an opportunity cost, like doing something more important. Nevertheless, the value of my current action is greater than the OC, so in this case I'm maximizing my utility. If OC > Value(current action), then I'm failing to maximize utility; I'm being inefficient, thus being wasteful.


Assume everyone seeks to maximize utility, and they face a series of choices between exchanging and donating. It follows that there's an OC for each choice. To simplify, let's assume Captain Picard is almost at the optimal point between trading and donating. He must choose between 1 trade or 1 donation. If he chooses correctly, he attains that optimum. If he chooses poorly, he moves an additional choice away from the optimum. If Picard chooses to trade, he foregos the net utility of donating. If he chooses to donate, he foregos the net utility of trading.

...

What's the problem? We don't know which option maximizes net utility for the whole world because of the same problem with "something else."


Therefore, your $500 donation route might maximize net utility greater than the $500 spent on trade, but with utility = f(wealth,whatever else), then we can conclude either way.

If the trade maximizes net utility, then donations fail to maximize net utility. And vice-versa.


It seems we're at a conundrum, but there is an answer. It's obtained by thinking about the following:

What explains the rapid increase of wealth from the mid 1700s to today? And why are some countries richer than other countries?

Are the rich countries richer because of donations? Or is there something else which more heavily drives the origins and continued growth of their wealth?

(Hint: it's hardly donations).


The main problem here is that you're trying to generalize the situation to whether it would be utility-maximizing if everyone did this, and if everyone existed in a global market without trading barriers. But that's not helpful, because I'm only asking about how you can make a difference on the margins, given the constraints of your situation. And that's what matters for individual ethical choices. The framework is maximizing one's contribution to utility, not donating per se, and if there ever came to be a situation in which I could individually maximize utility by buying a T-shirt rather than donating the money, then I would. But the point here is that most markets are far too large for my ~$1,000/year in donations to represent a real opportunity cost. Those markets will exist either way, and those people will have jobs either way. So on the margins, I have no incentive to contribute to the stability of those markets. Yes, if everyone stopped participating in them bad things would happen, but I would never advocate for everyone to do that. I only advocate that people make utility-maximizing choices at the moment they're living in.

(In terms of a direct response, there's a whole issue that you're neglecting to include in your analysis, which is what the exchange is being used to obtain. Remember that I'm not saying people should be altering the total amount of dollars they spend on things. I am saying that they should use more of their disposable income for donations rather than buying extraneous things. Here's an example. Let's say I go to a fancy restaurant in Manhattan and spend $100. While the exchange arguably could be said to be increasing net wealth, it certainly cannot be said to be increasing wealth for people in Africa. Therefore the wealth being created likely does not generate anywhere within an order of magnitude of the same increase in utility as if I donated that $100 to poor people in Africa. So right away, your argument is non-responsive if I'm spending a significant fraction of my disposable income on products and services that don't at all help poor people. Similarly, you have failed to respond to my point that even if I spend it on products that are manufactured in the these countries, a significant fraction of the income does not stay within those countries (if I buy an iPad, much of my money goes to California). Therefore you don't capture all of the benefits of increased trade that you are arguing for, so it's not clear that my money is spent most effectively.

All of this matters because even if you argue that the generalized example proves there's a marginal opportunity cost at the individual level from donating over trading, that is swamped by the aforementioned effects.)
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:59 am

"I'm only asking about the differences on the margin." What do you think that lengthy post of marginal analysis given a status quo world was all about? Good god. "The framework is maximizing one's contribution to utility, not donating per se," Yeah, sum the individual utility functions as explained in my previous post, and you should get max. utility, but you won't for reasons you keep ignoring.

You keep saying group X should spend more without any means for showing how much they should spend. That doesn't make sense. "Don't spend on extraneous things." Sure, whatever that means; that definition will vary, but whatever. "I would never advocate for everyone to do that [Good!]. I only advocate that people make utility-maximizing choices at the moment they're living in." Again, this is nonsensical. That position either upholds mine about trade or can uphold the donation route. Your position has been demonstrated to be arbitrary and incoherent.


I've already addressed your critical points with my responses to Lootifer. You disagree on concepts and definitions which--to put it bluntly--you keep failing to understand.

For example,
" Remember that I'm not saying people should be altering the total amount of dollars they spend on things. I am saying that they should use more of their disposable income for donations rather than buying extraneous things." So, they should spend less on "extraneous things," therefore, they are altering the total amount spent on consumption. That's a contradiction. When income is measured in wealth, you lose wealth when you donate. You gain wealth via ex-ante exchange.


Here's an example. Let's say I go to a fancy restaurant in Manhattan and spend $100. While the exchange arguably could be said to be increasing net wealth, it certainly cannot be said to be increasing wealth for people in Africa. Therefore the wealth being created likely does not generate anywhere within an order of magnitude of the same increase in utility as if I donated that $100 to poor people in Africa. So right away, your argument is non-responsive if I'm spending a significant fraction of my disposable income on products and services that don't at all help poor people.


Consider the production process of all the goods and services you used in order to go from your Apartment to a fancy restaurant in Manhattan. Think of the entire line of production for each good. If you conclude that no poor people have been helped, then you're failing to go through the thought experiment. Even if you can find one example which does not benefit poor people in arbitrary place A, so what? We can either conclude: (a) participate in trade which benefits poor people in Africa, or (b) donate.


But the whole philosophic endeavor is largely pointless if you consider the lesser effects donations have had on improving the lives of others. You've been pretty much complaining about the main driver of well-being for many people for the past 200 years and for pretty much everyone since the mid 1900s. "But the point here is that most markets are far too large for my ~$1,000/year in donations to represent a real opportunity cost. Those markets will exist either way, and those people will have jobs either way." Less of that follows as you get more people to subscribe to your moral position (note the marginalism). If you want your ethics, then fine, other people will do the heavy-lifting of actually helping the poor to a much greater degree than your donations.



"All of this matters because even if you argue that the generalized example proves there's a marginal opportunity cost at the individual level from donating over trading, that is swamped by the aforementioned effects." Sum up all the gains from trade, and you get >90% of the world's wealth. That's not being swamped, sorry.


Regardless of planning the Best Moral Plan for the People, it's known that trade and a certain array of institutions creates greater well-being, so it makes sense to opt for the trade and those institutions. The armchair planning of ethics is largely irrelevant and becomes disastrous when it remains oblivious to what actually helps poor people.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:04 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:For example,
" Remember that I'm not saying people should be altering the total amount of dollars they spend on things. I am saying that they should use more of their disposable income for donations rather than buying extraneous things." So, they should spend less on "extraneous things," therefore, they are altering the total amount spent on consumption. That's a contradiction.


Perhaps you're still failing to comprehend my argument. They should alter their consumption profile so that a larger fraction is spent on donation to the poor and a lesser fraction is spent on exchange, without necessarily changing the total amount of consumption. This is utility-maximizing for the other reasons in the post, even if it results in less wealth than the alternative scenario. If anything in your response indicates that you think I am arguing for people spending less money, or that you think I advocate people should stop trading altogether, or that trade does not increase wealth, then you are not understanding my position and this is pointless. This is very simple: wealth creation through trade is not always the best action for increasing marginal utility.


Here's an example. Let's say I go to a fancy restaurant in Manhattan and spend $100. While the exchange arguably could be said to be increasing net wealth, it certainly cannot be said to be increasing wealth for people in Africa. Therefore the wealth being created likely does not generate anywhere within an order of magnitude of the same increase in utility as if I donated that $100 to poor people in Africa. So right away, your argument is non-responsive if I'm spending a significant fraction of my disposable income on products and services that don't at all help poor people.


Consider the production process of all the goods and services you used in order to go from your Apartment to a fancy restaurant in Manhattan. Think of the entire line of production for each good. If you conclude that no poor people have been helped, then you're failing to go through the thought experiment. Even if you can find one example which does not benefit poor people in arbitrary place A, so what? We can either conclude: (a) participate in trade which benefits poor people in Africa, or (b) donate.


This whole thing is based on your premise that the opportunity cost of donating instead of exchanging is the reason why you should not donate. But that argument is only compelling if the sums being spent on the poor are equal. Even if some part of the supply chain for my dinner in Manhattan ends up in some small part of the income being spent in Africa, as I said, it's not going to be even within an order of magnitude when it comes to utility creation. If I spend $100 on the dinner and even $10 gets to poor people in Africa, there's no way that the loss of that $90 (in their terms) is compensated for by the gap represented by the trade opportunity cost.

But the whole philosophic endeavor is largely pointless if you consider the lesser effects donations have had on improving the lives of others. You've been pretty much complaining about the main driver of well-being for many people for the past 200 years and for pretty much everyone since the mid 1900s.


I am not complaining about it. I am saying that it doesn't presently maximize utility everywhere.

"But the point here is that most markets are far too large for my ~$1,000/year in donations to represent a real opportunity cost. Those markets will exist either way, and those people will have jobs either way." Less of that follows as you get more people to subscribe to your moral position (note the marginalism).


That's OK. We don't need the whole world to subscribe to my moral position to erase absolute poverty. We don't even need that many.

If you want your ethics, then fine, other people will do the heavy-lifting of actually helping the poor to a much greater degree than your donations


If I had the resources to directly help the poor in this way, then perhaps I would. My argument is that my individual $1000/year cannot do that, so it's more worthwhile to spend on donations. There are lots of places around the world that are largely untouched by Western markets, and I can't change that penetration level all by myself.

"All of this matters because even if you argue that the generalized example proves there's a marginal opportunity cost at the individual level from donating over trading, that is swamped by the aforementioned effects." Sum up all the gains from trade, and you get >90% of the world's wealth. That's not being swamped, sorry.


And that argument would be relevant if I said we should stop trading, sorry.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:46 pm

You guys should write a book... wait, nevermind, I think this counts.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:53 pm

thegreekdog wrote:You guys should write a book... wait, nevermind, I think this counts.

TGD, this is a serious discussion. Stay on topic and contribute to the serious discussion that is going on in the Off Topic forum, otherwise someone will create a whole new forum for extra-extra serious discussion.

On topic, this is all over my head. Continue.


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Re: ObamaCare

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:56 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:You guys should write a book... wait, nevermind, I think this counts.

TGD, this is a serious discussion. Stay on topic and contribute to the serious discussion that is going on in the Off Topic forum, otherwise someone will create a whole new forum for extra-extra serious discussion.

On topic, this is all over my head. Continue.


--Andy


Thank you for contributing to the point of my post in this thread (I also added a post in the suggestions forum to reinforce the point).

For what it's worth, I suspect universalchiro and Phatscotty did not read any of Mets's or BBS's recent posts in this thread (which Phatscotty has made).
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:00 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:You guys should write a book... wait, nevermind, I think this counts.

TGD, this is a serious discussion. Stay on topic and contribute to the serious discussion that is going on in the Off Topic forum, otherwise someone will create a whole new forum for extra-extra serious discussion.

On topic, this is all over my head. Continue.


--Andy


Thank you for contributing to the point of my post in this thread (I also added a post in the suggestions forum to reinforce the point).

For what it's worth, I suspect universalchiro and Phatscotty did not read any of Mets's or BBS's recent posts in this thread (which Phatscotty has made).


If Phatscotty feels this is too far afield for a topic on ObamaCare, we can move it to a separate thread.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:07 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:You guys should write a book... wait, nevermind, I think this counts.

TGD, this is a serious discussion. Stay on topic and contribute to the serious discussion that is going on in the Off Topic forum, otherwise someone will create a whole new forum for extra-extra serious discussion.

On topic, this is all over my head. Continue.


--Andy


Thank you for contributing to the point of my post in this thread (I also added a post in the suggestions forum to reinforce the point).

For what it's worth, I suspect universalchiro and Phatscotty did not read any of Mets's or BBS's recent posts in this thread (which Phatscotty has made).


If Phatscotty feels this is too far afield for a topic on ObamaCare, we can move it to a separate thread.


It's precisely on topic (in my opinion... I was a former global moderator, so that carries a little weight).

To make my point bluntly, Phatscotty is upset that he was called about by individuals for saying he cares only about fiscal policy. That point has made its way into a number of threads. He also is apparently pissed about Andy's contributions to serious threads, which most of us have been able to ignore. Again in my opinion, the proper venue is for him to report the individuals with whom he's having a problem; not to suggest a separate subforum for "serious" discussions, which would not actually solve the stated problem. Additionally, the discussion you and BBS have been having is a perfect example of why a subforum is not needed. A serious discussion is being had in this very thread, created by Phatscotty, between two individuals who arguably would be on the list of people who have "derailed" threads with jokes.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:14 pm

Obama Delays Obamacare Again; OKs Even More People Dying in the Streets Without Healthcare

The Obama administration is giving employers more time to comply with rules requiring them to provide affordable health insurance for their workers.
Companies with 50 to 99 employees will now have until 2016 to provide affordable coverage under Obamacare, a year later than expected. And larger companies are getting a bit of a break too -- they must offer insurance to only 70% of full-time workers in 2015, rather than 95%.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/10/news/ec ... index.html


At this rate all the hubbub about Obamacare is for naught. We'll be discussing the pending roll-out of Obamacare on this board in 2075 while orbiting Earth Colony IV on our SpaceCycles.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:17 pm

saxitoxin wrote:Obama Delays Obamacare Again; OKs Even More People Dying in the Streets Without Healthcare

The Obama administration is giving employers more time to comply with rules requiring them to provide affordable health insurance for their workers.
Companies with 50 to 99 employees will now have until 2016 to provide affordable coverage under Obamacare, a year later than expected. And larger companies are getting a bit of a break too -- they must offer insurance to only 70% of full-time workers in 2015, rather than 95%.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/10/news/ec ... index.html


At this rate all the hubbub about Obamacare is for naught. We'll be discussing the pending roll-out of Obamacare on this board in 2075 while orbiting Earth Colony IV on our SpaceCycles.


How does a company go about figuring out which employees to offer the insurance to, to meet the 70% requirement?
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:27 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Obama Delays Obamacare Again; OKs Even More People Dying in the Streets Without Healthcare

The Obama administration is giving employers more time to comply with rules requiring them to provide affordable health insurance for their workers.
Companies with 50 to 99 employees will now have until 2016 to provide affordable coverage under Obamacare, a year later than expected. And larger companies are getting a bit of a break too -- they must offer insurance to only 70% of full-time workers in 2015, rather than 95%.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/10/news/ec ... index.html


At this rate all the hubbub about Obamacare is for naught. We'll be discussing the pending roll-out of Obamacare on this board in 2075 while orbiting Earth Colony IV on our SpaceCycles.


How does a company go about figuring out which employees to offer the insurance to, to meet the 70% requirement?


Step 1: Make a list of all unmarried men with no chronic health conditions.
Step 2: Send list to insurance company.
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