Game of Thrones (series spoiling only!)

[patches70]

Well there is Hedge knight which tells the story of Aemon Targaryen (the Maester at The Wall) and his brother Dareon.

And Ser Duncan the Tall, and guess who is related to Duncan in the present?

[strike wolf]

I said Daerion but I meant Aegon V. THough I think Daerion was also in it. I think I've heard who he is related to but I may be mistaken.

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[patches70]

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[strike wolf]

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[Serbia]

Bollocks.

[Army of GOD]

I require that shirt

[betiko]

Ok so who is going to fight tyrion?
here is what I think: bronn might take again that role (would that be accepted at king's landing????) an jaimie would be forced to defend justice with his sword... that would bring some sense to all the bronn vs jaimie training... and jaimie would get killed.
I don't know, smells like jaimie has done his time, he has turned into a good guy and I ve never had any hint that he is still in the story by book 5.

So I don't understand Shae. Didn't she understand Tyrion's move and why he used those words? She's a clever girl, I don't understand how she could go for something so vengefully stupid. I will sure get an explanation soon. Could she be part of a littlefinger plot from the start??

theon: ahhh come on, it doesn't make any sense that he could have such stockholm syndrome and that he could actually be capable of spying as theon greyjoy with people remotely trusting him and come back to his master for intel. this sounds crappy.

[patches70]

Oh betiko, you might have to wait an episode or two, but you'll have a good view when you find out who the champions will be, for Tyrion and the Crown.
That fight will be epic. I can hardly wait. It will be one of those scenes from the book that I'd really love to see with my own eyes, instead of just imagining it from the description given in the book.

Anyway, I love how calculating Tywin is. He's used the trial of Tyrion to get what he always wanted.

Tywin had no intention of ever letting Tyrion get executed as a result of the guilty verdict. He also made sure that Cersi is going to get what she wants, Tyrion dead. How you ask?

In one of the deleted scenes at a small council meeting, Tywin is informed of the threat of the wildlings and Mance Ryder to Castle Black. He knows that the Night's Watch doesn't have a chance. Unfortunately we don't know about this scene because it was deleted.

Tywin always intended for Tyrion to be banished to the Wall. There, at the Wall, Tyrion would die anyway when the wildlings over run the place.
Tywin also knew that Jamie's love for his brother would compel the younger Lannister to seek out the Patriarch of the family to plead for mercy for Tyrion. Which Tywin offers, graciously, in return for Jamie giving up the Kingsguard and assuming his place at Casterly Rock.

In the end, Tywin gets what he wants, Jamie as the head of the Lannisters, and Cersi gets what she wants, Tyrion dead, cut down by a wildling horde. Jamie spends the rest of his life unhappy and Tyrion spends the rest of time rotting in the ground.

Holy shit Tywin is a crafty one!

So I don't understand Shae. Didn't she understand Tyrion's move and why he used those words? She's a clever girl, I don't understand how she could go for something so vengefully stupid. I will sure get an explanation soon. Could she be part of a littlefinger plot from the start??

If we remember back to the Red Wedding, the first order given when Jeoffry dies is "Seal the gates! Seize every ship in the harbor! Nothing gets in or out of the city!" or to that effect.

When all the ships were seized, Shae was found, obviously.

I can say, with confidence, that Tywin has met with Shae off camera. They had, at least, a "discussion". He promised her that Tyrion would live, albeit exiled to the Wall but live none the less, if she would give testimony to his absolute guilt. No, she's not a part of a Littlefinger plot, she is a part of a Tywin plot, to get Jamie out of the Kingsguard and back to Casterly Rock, where Tywin believes his favorite son is supposed to be.



As for Theon, his story has strayed so far from the books that just about anything is possible. Theon, or should I say Reek, is deeply disturbed psychologically. Which isn't surprising given what was done to him.

Betiko, I am curious, have you ever wondered why Ramsey calls Theon "Reek"?

There is a story to why that is that is not even broached in the slightest in the TV series. If you knew the whole story things may be a tiny bit more clear to you, maybe.


Dinklage deserves an award for his portray. I was "Dammnnnnnnnn!!" when he went all ballistic on everyone telling them to all go f*ck themselves. I laughed, and Dinklage did an excellent job portraying Tyrion's spite, anger and general "f*ck off" attitude to everyone.
It was outstanding.

[patches70]

And here is the deleted scene of the small council meeting where Tywin is informed about the wildlings.

[Army of GOD]

I like the Theon subplot but I felt like the invasion scenes were too quick. Obviously were gonna see more but I wish it was a little more drawn out.

Also I'm thinking it's gonna be Bronn or Tyrion vs Jamie but if Tyrion is found guilty either way its too late for mercy. His speech signed his death sentence methinks.

[betiko]

I don't remember which actor was saying that Bronn was his favorite character in the season preview... i think it's the one doing Jo Snow (forgot his name).
Anyway, if he says this an it's in the preview, I guess it's because Bronn is about to do something big and become a more important character. Killing Jaimie would be promissing. Tommen has to die soon somehow, I can't imagine a good boy like him still being alive by book 5.
Cersei has to stay and be as miserable as possible. I'm sure the martels can help doing something to her daughter. Actually it could be pretty funny if tywinn is left with tyrion as his only heir.

regarding theon, i don't think he deseves to be called that anymore. he is just reek, and deserves no pitty.

[nietzsche]

I don't remember which actor was saying that Bronn was his favorite character in the season preview... i think it's the one doing Jo Snow (forgot his name).
Anyway, if he says this an it's in the preview, I guess it's because Bronn is about to do something big and become a more important character. Killing Jaimie would be promissing. Tommen has to die soon somehow, I can't imagine a good boy like him still being alive by book 5.
Cersei has to stay and be as miserable as possible. I'm sure the martels can help doing something to her daughter. Actually it could be pretty funny if tywinn is left with tyrion as his only heir.

regarding theon, i don't think he deseves to be called that anymore. he is just reek, and deserves no pitty.

Who killed JonBenet Ramsey?

[Gillipig]

Very good episode the latest one, except for the Theon subplot, I barely recognize anything from the books, they've completely ignored the storyline and for no benefit as it isn't an improvement.
Peter Dinklage made that anger scene with such passion it almost didn't feel like acting. Wonderfully done.

For those that have read the books, which of the following characters did you like better in the books than in the TV series?

Tywin
Tyrion
Daenerys
Arya
Littlefinger
Varys
Jon Snow


For me I think Varys, Daenerys and Jon Snow were better in the books, Tyrion and Arya pretty much equal, and Tywin and Littlefinger are actually better in the TV series than they were in the books.

[denominator]

Very good episode the latest one, except for the Theon subplot, I barely recognize anything from the books, they've completely ignored the storyline and for no benefit as it isn't an improvement.
Peter Dinklage made that anger scene with such passion it almost didn't feel like acting. Wonderfully done.

For those that have read the books, which of the following characters did you like better in the books than in the TV series?

Tywin
Tyrion
Daenerys
Arya
Littlefinger
Varys
Jon Snow


For me I think Varys, Daenerys and Jon Snow were better in the books, Tyrion and Arya pretty much equal, and Tywin and Littlefinger are actually better in the TV series than they were in the books.

They've made some major changes from the books to the show in both the Jon and Theon storylines (again, I've only read up to the first half of the 4th book, so some things may have just moved ahead in the timeline), as well as minor changes to the other storylines - mostly to add in what is missing from the books by lack of POV (for example, we could never have had the scene with the small council [consisting of Tywin, Mace, Varys, Pycelle and Oberyn] discussing issues as none of them are POV characters in the books). However, I think most of the additions to the show in this context make the show better for TV.

Characters: I think you're right in that Tywin and Littlefinger are better in the show than in the books. Arya, Tyrion, and Jon wash for me, with Varys and Daenerys both being much better in the books than in the show. Oberyn is about the same, but equally awesome - he is probably one of my favourite characters (along with Davos and Jaime).

[denominator]

We can go back and forth like this forever. Again, did Jon need to kill Karl the way he did? Does it matter, they are just as dead I guess. Arya wanted Polliver to know who she was and maybe to think about Lommy as he was dying.

I guess if we can agree, getting dark, doesn't mean turning bad, we are ok. If Ned Stark or Jon Snow can do dark things when the times call for it, and still maintain honor, and be noble and good then I think Arya can too. She is on her own. If her father was still alive, she would still be protected, and wouldn't need to do these things for herself. Now that she is responsible for her own life, she needs to be "darker". I also think as you said about Ned Stark, Arya is seeking justice for a lot of people, she just can't do it, atleast not for now, as overtly as her father could. When do we ever get the chance to see Ned Stark under someones thumb, held hostage, under constant threat of being raped, and then be let loose. I wonder what he would do to someone that held him captive and abused him, and then made the mistake of letting him have a chance to comeback at them. That probably was never a thing Ned Stark had to confront. Ned and his allies were strong enough to fight head to head and win. They never faced that kind of personal need for payback. Maybe you see a glimpse of it at the end of his life. After being attacked by Jaime Lannister...well this happened



Do you think King Robert would have done this to his in-laws? Seemed a little personal to me. Ofcourse littlefinger did probably get him a little riled up. Yes they are crimes and he was hand of the king, but it sounds a lot like the kind of stuff that Arya has been witnessing.

To go back to the Arya thing one more time, I'll agree that she is well within her rights to be upset. And I'll even agree that Jon went a little bit over the top, especially when it comes to the dramatic way he decided to kill Q/Karl.

As for Ned Stark - I was never a fan of Ned Stark except when he was being a dad. The only time he ever made good decisions was in the way he raised his children. Otherwise, he was far to bound up in his own sense of honour to read the way things were going to go and make good decisions. That's why he lost his head so quickly. The only reason Ned is a beloved character is because Martin (and by extension, the show) set you up to like House Stark and Eddard in particular. In the first book (and again, by extension, the first season), we get 9 POV characters, of which 6 are Starks (Ned, Catelyn, Bran, Sansa, Arya, and Jon) [for non-book readers, the other 3 are Tyrion, Danerys, and a prologue from Will, the man of the Night's Watch who deserted), which immediately sets up the Starks as the protagonists. Following this, 5 of the first 6 chapters are Stark chapters which again reinforces this notion of House Stark as the protagonists. So characters like Jaime and Cersei, who later become POV characters, are disliked because of the initial pro-Stark bias. It makes me wonder if Martin had wrote in those two as POV characters from the beginning if we'd all be fans of House Lannister instead.

I've begun watching Season One again and am remembering that I was/am a big fan of Season One Arya. It's really once Ned loses his head that I lose interest in Arya and I've figured out why - she's one dimensional. All the characters I dislike tend to be very one dimensional with one goal and one mode of action: Arya, Ned, Cersei, Daenerys, Stannis to name a few as well as a handful of minor characters that are the same. My favourite characters are the ones that are mulch-dimensional and faced with different problems that have to be handled in different ways: Jaime, Davos, Oberyn, Catelyn, Tyrion, etc. It's this depth of character that keeps the story interesting and makes you think between episodes, instead of just anticipating the outcome.

[betiko]

Yes, I wonder how Martin wrote those books. In my opinion, he didn't have the general storyline of the 7 books figured out and he probably went 1 book at a time.
I think he thought that focusing too much on the starks as the protagonists as in book/season 1 would be boring.
The lannisters that were antagonists have clearly turned into protagonists. It's more obvious at this point with Jaimie, Tyrion and Thommen vs Tywinn and cersei. there are more "good guys" than bad guys in this house.

The real bad guys are the boltons and the freys at this point, and at some extent the "house arryn" i f I can call it that.
Tyrell, Martel, targaryen, lannisters, greyjoys... I can't see any of these houses as a whole as the bad guys.

[strike wolf]

Ok so who is going to fight tyrion?
here is what I think: bronn might take again that role (would that be accepted at king's landing????) an jaimie would be forced to defend justice with his sword... that would bring some sense to all the bronn vs jaimie training... and jaimie would get killed.
I don't know, smells like jaimie has done his time, he has turned into a good guy and I ve never had any hint that he is still in the story by book 5.

So I don't understand Shae. Didn't she understand Tyrion's move and why he used those words? She's a clever girl, I don't understand how she could go for something so vengefully stupid. I will sure get an explanation soon. Could she be part of a littlefinger plot from the start??

theon: ahhh come on, it doesn't make any sense that he could have such stockholm syndrome and that he could actually be capable of spying as theon greyjoy with people remotely trusting him and come back to his master for intel. this sounds crappy.

You got to understand. Theon's Stockholme Syndrome has Stockholme Syndrome.

[strike wolf]

As far as the Lannisters, I've always liked Tyrion from the get go both in book and show. I've come around some to Jaime but I still have difficulty justifying his early actions, Tywin isn't really evil so much as he is "get respect and power for the family at any cost", Tommen, Myrcella and Lancel are all kind of just meh, good hearted but not much else characters. Cersei and Joffrey are the only truly evil Lannisters.

[betiko]

As far as the Lannisters, I've always liked Tyrion from the get go both in book and show. I've come around some to Jaime but I still have difficulty justifying his early actions, Tywin isn't really evil so much as he is "get respect and power for the family at any cost", Tommen, Myrcella and Lancel are all kind of just meh, good hearted but not much else characters. Cersei and Joffrey are the only truly evil Lannisters.

I agee about Tywinn. Perhaps they used tywinn instead of Roose in the harenhal scenes with Arya as it probably didn't add anything to Roose but it did to Tywinn.
he is still a major asshole with his son Tyrion that is in everyone's shortlist of favorite characters.

And Jaimie.... bah, as an amercian, you should just see him as a "born again" character.

regarding theon's stockholm syndrome having stockholm sydrome... it takes a while to picture that!

[denominator]

Yes, I wonder how Martin wrote those books. In my opinion, he didn't have the general storyline of the 7 books figured out and he probably went 1 book at a time.
I think he thought that focusing too much on the starks as the protagonists as in book/season 1 would be boring.
The lannisters that were antagonists have clearly turned into protagonists. It's more obvious at this point with Jaimie, Tyrion and Thommen vs Tywinn and cersei. there are more "good guys" than bad guys in this house.

The real bad guys are the boltons and the freys at this point, and at some extent the "house arryn" i f I can call it that.
Tyrell, Martel, targaryen, lannisters, greyjoys... I can't see any of these houses as a whole as the bad guys.

I think there is an aspect of getting your audience hooked on the book as well. Knowing that Ned dies at the end of book one, you have to have enough other protagonist-y characters sympathetic to your protagonist's cause (let's face it - Ned was the protagonist of book one) or your readers are going to drop the book in disgust when he dies. Once introducing the audience to that, it's easier to deal with other major deaths for the rest of the series.

Having read what I have, I truly think he intended to add Jaime as a POV character later in the story, or at least start giving his rationale for actions. And ultimately, this comes back to what pearljam was saying pages ago - we allow Ned and Jon and other protagonists to get away with "dark" actions because they are the protagonists, but give others less leeway. Had the chapter where Jaime pushes Bran out of the window been written from Jaime's perspective instead of Bran's, how much differently would we have seen his actions? It all comes down to who, at that point in the story, is the protagonist and who we should be rooting for.

At the end of season two, who else had trouble deciding which side they wanted to win? You had a very likable character (Tyrion, Davos) on each side that was risking their life, and a very unlikable character on each side (Cersei, Stannis) that you wanted to lose. It made the battle that much more intriguing when there isn't a clear protagonist.

As for the truly good/bad houses - there are none. They are all vying for power and all have their different methods. Sure, you have a spectrum of "good" guys to "bad" guys (I reckon it runs from Ned Stark to Ramsay Bolton) and all the other characters plot somewhere in the middle. Keep in mind that the Boltons and the Freys made a decision for power (and a little bit of spite) to gain everything. Eliminating the Stark/Tully alliance allowed the Boltons to claim the north and the Freys to claim the Riverlands. This is hardly different than Robert overthrowing the throne to claim the kingship, except in that it was at a wedding instead of on the battlefield.

[Gillipig]

Yes, I wonder how Martin wrote those books. In my opinion, he didn't have the general storyline of the 7 books figured out and he probably went 1 book at a time.
I think he thought that focusing too much on the starks as the protagonists as in book/season 1 would be boring.
The lannisters that were antagonists have clearly turned into protagonists. It's more obvious at this point with Jaimie, Tyrion and Thommen vs Tywinn and cersei. there are more "good guys" than bad guys in this house.

The real bad guys are the boltons and the freys at this point, and at some extent the "house arryn" i f I can call it that.
Tyrell, Martel, targaryen, lannisters, greyjoys... I can't see any of these houses as a whole as the bad guys.

I think there is an aspect of getting your audience hooked on the book as well. Knowing that Ned dies at the end of book one, you have to have enough other protagonist-y characters sympathetic to your protagonist's cause (let's face it - Ned was the protagonist of book one) or your readers are going to drop the book in disgust when he dies. Once introducing the audience to that, it's easier to deal with other major deaths for the rest of the series.

Having read what I have, I truly think he intended to add Jaime as a POV character later in the story, or at least start giving his rationale for actions. And ultimately, this comes back to what pearljam was saying pages ago - we allow Ned and Jon and other protagonists to get away with "dark" actions because they are the protagonists, but give others less leeway. Had the chapter where Jaime pushes Bran out of the window been written from Jaime's perspective instead of Bran's, how much differently would we have seen his actions? It all comes down to who, at that point in the story, is the protagonist and who we should be rooting for.

At the end of season two, who else had trouble deciding which side they wanted to win? You had a very likable character (Tyrion, Davos) on each side that was risking their life, and a very unlikable character on each side (Cersei, Stannis) that you wanted to lose. It made the battle that much more intriguing when there isn't a clear protagonist.

As for the truly good/bad houses - there are none. They are all vying for power and all have their different methods. Sure, you have a spectrum of "good" guys to "bad" guys (I reckon it runs from Ned Stark to Ramsay Bolton) and all the other characters plot somewhere in the middle. Keep in mind that the Boltons and the Freys made a decision for power (and a little bit of spite) to gain everything. Eliminating the Stark/Tully alliance allowed the Boltons to claim the north and the Freys to claim the Riverlands. This is hardly different than Robert overthrowing the throne to claim the kingship, except in that it was at a wedding instead of on the battlefield.

I have to disagree with you on that, I don't think there's any way to make the scene where Jaimie pushes Bran out of the tower to seem any less cruel than it was. Jaimie has been "redeemed" later in the books but if Martin had written that scene from Jaimies POV, you'd still think he was cruel.

In general that rule stands though, if we get to follow someone closely we tend to sympathise with them more.

[Sackett58]

I am trying to remember if any of the books describe Jamie's personality before he became known as the King Slayer. It seems Jamie had a code before that incident. He basically killed the King because he was going to lite up Kings Landing if I remember correctly. Then everyone hearing from Ned witnessing Jamie murdering the King basically passed judgement. Losing his hand maybe he has come back full circle.

[betiko]

I am trying to remember if any of the books describe Jamie's personality before he became known as the King Slayer. It seems Jamie had a code before that incident. He basically killed the King because he was going to lite up Kings Landing if I remember correctly. Then everyone hearing from Ned witnessing Jamie murdering the King basically passed judgement. Losing his hand maybe he has come back full circle.

So ned was the one advertising in all westeros the jaimie killed the king? I can understand why jaimie hated the starks after that.

[strike wolf]

I don't know if I would go so far as to say he advertised it but neither he nor Barristan Selmy made their feelings about Jaime Lannister a hidden matter by any means.

[strike wolf]

By the way, was the song that played at the end an instrumental of this?