Honest Conversation in America about Race

[Phatscotty]

This is what living in the time of complete and absolute debasement of the word 'racist' looks like. 100% brought to us by those who use and abuse the word and label/judge/categorize others with it's negative implications with not a single care for whether it's warranted or not. By throwing it around so loosely and so immediately, race is the only thing that matters anymore. Even when, as in some recent cases, we have no idea what happened; racism is loudly and repeatedly proclaimed front and center in government, media, and academia, while events are judged solely by the color of people's skin. How can this possibly be 'Progress'? To them, hate is a tool, evil is a tool, race is a tool. A tool to be used as a personal attack to marginalize, minimallize, and ultimately dismiss/purge whoever doesn't go along. When it comes to who gets in their way, they follow in the exact same footsteps of the social justice Nazi's. Nazi's likewise didn't think anyone besides them was worthy of their version of social justice either, and it was their version of 'rights' that everyone else had to follow. Those who didn't follow Hitler were simply 'haters of National Socialism' and just 'wanted their Fuhrer to fail' and that meant they hated the National Socialist Workers Party. And the party controlled media did then as it does now.... promote the party's agenda to increase the party's power while belittling any opposition and obliterating all context and comparison. And 'the people' are viewed as 'the pawns'; their emotions molded into actions. To be genuflected and made known world wide or to be ignored completely and swept under the rug depending on which is convenient for the party, and which is not...


When a Minority Cop Killed an Innocent White Man in Utah, the Press Was Silent

Most stories about police shootings stay buried or at best, see limited life in local media or the blogosphere. Only the select, as in selected by the media, stories become as big as the Michael Brown story. Certain stories simply transcend the perceived boredom of news headlines and become a part of pop culture.

Does the media intentionally stir up racial hatred? Is it part of their agenda? Is it because blacks in Ferguson rioted and looted while whites in Salt Lake City have remained calm?

America needs to find answers, because this racial divide is moronic. We are all "Americans," and not "African-Americans," or "Asian-Americans," or "Redneck-Americans," or anything else. We are Americans first, and we need to remember that. It is OK to love and celebrate your heritage. It is not OK to let it consume who you are and carry hatred that will explode at a moment's notice.
Ever heard of a kid named Dillon Taylor?

He was a white kid, 20 years old, who was killed by a non-white cop on August 11. This happened two days after Michael Brown was killed. Dillon Taylor seems to be a young man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was leaving a 7-11 convenience store. Officers were in the area because there was a report of a man with a gun. Taylor had headphones in and did not hear the police when they asked him to lay down on the ground. Taylor, unfortunately, reached into his pocket, for a cell phone, and that was the last thing he ever did. He had no gun. He did not rob any stores. He did not assault a police officer. His "crime" was that he did not think, and that non-crime cost him his life.

Officers were obviously in a heightened state of alert, and a white kid with headphones happened to be killed by a cop who was referred to as "not white." Do you think that was because of his race? I don't think it was, and that's my personal opinion, but…Where are the riots in Salt Lake City? Surely a lot of whites have to think that this was racially motivated. Right?

Wrong. I think most people (black, brown, and white) understand that it was probably not racially motivated. The frustration that falls over much of "white America" is that we are all thrown into one big pile of racists and if a white on black crime happens, the worst always gets assumed by a minority of people and is then pushed by the media, continually growing exponentially until out of control. That is when the real problems begin to happen.

That is also exactly where we are with the situation in Ferguson.

I live in a country where I am labeled a racist for not liking Obama's policies. If I don't like Obamacare, I am a racist and even a white man will call me that, so long as he is a Democrat.
When are people going to wake up and see that "the powers that be," which include both media and government, want us to stay divided? They really don't want me and a black man in Murrieta, California to agree on anything. That would eat away at the power that they only keep when we remain divided. We give them that power by our senseless bickering.
I think most of us could understand how the police might have felt that Dillon Taylor was reaching for a gun. I, for one, don't think this had anything to do with race. I think it was about a cop who felt his life was in danger. So why is it so hard to believe that Darren Wilson could have thought the same thing?

Why is it that, often times, when a white man, or any man who is not black in the case of George Zimmerman, kills a black man, it becomes a media circus? We will get nowhere by avoiding the tough questions in the name of "political correctness." People need to stop thinking that the black man or the white man is their enemy and look at the real enemy that resides throughout the halls of capitol buildings all over this nation and in newsrooms in virtually every city.

America needs to do some soul searching and come together in spite of those who want us divided. A lot of us are waking up and that is what "the powers that be" fear. So what happens when they fear that we will come together? They stir up more chaos just as they are doing in Ferguson and just as they did with Trayvon Martin.

This will continue until Americans open their eyes

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/08/21 ... ss-silent/

[betiko]

While i disagree with you on most subjects, I completely agree with your viewpoint here.

[mrswdk]

Does Godwin's Law still apply when Nazi comparisons have already been made within the first paragraph of the OP?

[BigBallinStalin]

Great article on the entire Ferguson reaction:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/th ... a-of-rage/

(much better than blaming it on RACISM or on THOSE PEOPLE CALLED ME A RACIST. It's takes a meta-view on the issue).

[patches70]

This cop needs to be tossed into prison. But he'll be cleared by a grand jury and won't face any consequences for his mistake.

If a regular citizen shot this kid and then claimed "I thought he had a gun!", does anyone think that regular citizen would get away without at least having to face a jury?

If a cop is going to shoot someone, he/she damn well better be absolutely sure he is in the right and not just "I was afraid" is going to cut it. They are cops, they have to accept that there are certain risks to their jobs. They can't go gunning people down just because they are afraid.

The cop didn't see a gun, he just thought the kid had a gun. Those mistakes have to be stopped, period. It doesn't matter the race of the cop or the victim, that cop is too stupid to ever have even been allowed to be a cop. And far, far too afraid to do his job correctly. Cops are about the most scared, paranoid people on the planet. Not a good thing when armed and with the protection of the State behind one like that.

Racism is the red herring, the real issue is the idiocy of the police. And that idiocy is getting people killed for no good reason at all.

f*ck the police.

[Metsfanmax]

Even when, as in some recent cases, we have no idea what happened; racism is loudly and repeatedly proclaimed front and center in government, media, and academia, while events are judged solely by the color of people's skin.

It is true that some people think that Darren Wilson is guilty because he is white and killed a black guy. However, that doesn't excuse you from thinking about this carefully -- just because some people have an extreme view in one direction doesn't mean you get to have an extreme view in the other. The reason we don't know what happened is because Darren Wilson didn't even have a trial. There is a real complaint about the fact that a lot of cops kill people and don't go to court for it, and it is too intellectually lazy to reject this simply because it sounds like you have just a little something in common with the "social justice Nazi's."

[Phatscotty]

While i disagree with you on most subjects, I completely agree with your viewpoint here.

I bet ya we agree on most subjects, and we just disagree on certain variants. I bet we could possibly end up in agreement on many variants as well, chop much of the rest out to different principles n values along with geopolitics and be totally okay with that at the end of that day.

I don't really care so much about agreement, never have. Should be obvious by now I don't really seem to care about disagreement either What I do care about; clarity, details, examples. Some people can't handle it, some people can. Not exactly sure what that means about the disagreezeez who can't handle it, but I do have a theory. I think some part of it, in many to most of those who disagree and seem overly distraught about it to the point not being able to befriend anyone who disagrees or getting between family members even.... They are in love with themselves and anyone who doesn't agree is hated/or think they are perfect and anyone who doesn't agree believes in lies/or think they are smarter than everyone else, obviously that everyone who disagrees is stupid/that they stand for what is good, so anyone who doesn't agree is evil. What else could refusing to associate with someone based on disagreement be based on?

I think in this group where you are likely to find 2 types.

#1 a lot of knowledge, and sure they may be smart or even really smart, all kinds of college degrees, straight A's the whole way, makin 6 figures right out of the gate...and that is great, but there is little to no wisdom. That's not a lowblow either, they simply haven't had the chance really to have any true experience in various issues/fields or had enough time play out to see how things change. Wisdom can only come with experience and study, sometimes even error and failure can help a lot too. It's hard to know until after you get into the real world for a while and then look back. They've studied all the terms, know by heart terms you or I may have brainfarted in one ear out the other, can give you an intro to a few different types of things in a given field, but they have never been in the field. And that's okay, its the only way to learn and gain experience. Just please please, don't lecture someone in the field about how the field is from having only known the sideline your entire life! This is a big part of the reason why I try very hard not to call people mean names, try not to hurt their feelings, and I've never felt the need to build myself up by tearing others down....I remind myself they are 15 years younger, to speak a bit more, and when an older person like Saxi is speaking, I remind myself they lived the 1940's before, and to listen a bit more

#2 little knowledge/lot-o-passion. For example, and this happens to some people all their lives, they have never actually studied their opinions/beliefs, and certainly never challenged their beliefs. Evidenced by the topic matter here of not even allowing others to challenge it either, and just hating/blocking them instead. These types have studied their talking points, but only on some of the issues they already 'felt' were correct before, and any response to their talking point, they go and find the next talking point, and that's how they learn that. And hey, that's really where it all starts. The only problem I have with these types is with the one's that do not know they are just greenhorns. Some of them take their issues as gospel and make it their life's work. They parade out 'expert this' and 'expert that' while only understanding the issue through confirmation bias and likely do not even understand the reason why they should seek out different opinions, if not to only test theirs and make it stronger, or else admit that was dumb and move on.

Basically, we just have to tolerate them the way we tolerate new 16 year old kids first getting their drivers licenses every year. It's never going to change. Some 16 year olds have had 2 parents advising them every step of the way for the previous 2 years repeating common mistakes and rules over and over and over again, other 16 year olds are gonna put the gas pedal to the floor everytime the light turns green and take that left as hard as they can. It won't be long before it's wet out and they have to learn the hard way why that's a bad idea.

Where I've admitted I felt I was dumb and moved on....and this is just my experience, and I'm aware that others have different experiences, and when they disagree with me that's perfectly fine even if I do seek to challenge them all the way or not. when I was in college, for perhaps a year or so, I was the loudmouth atheist, oh so certain was I!!! Looking back, I didn't know jack shit! even though I took a class in world religion and was raised Catholic, felt I knew all I needed to know, I DID NOT KNOW SHIT about religion compared to what I know now. I based most of my religious 'thoughts' on the level of humor in the word 'skydaddy' and all the skydaddyism's my professors tossed around reinforcing that, and for most of my life thinking to myself 'so many different religions, how can they all be right?' as a yute it was more something like 'only one can be right' but as I grew older I began to understand it's so much more than that, and nothing at all to do with what religion has the correct version of purgatory or how that rule is dumb because we can eat pork now and not get sick. Right now, to me, religion is about how to seek peace for my soul, how to try to stay on the path of goodness and charity and helping others and not stray to the path of negativity or hurting others or misguiding others, how to avoid getting caught up/trapped in materialism and avoid a plastic life, believing there is a higher power, believing there is purpose. And from the Bible, it's no longer about stoning adulterers and refraining from shellfish, that's just more 101 skydaddyism. It's about seeing examples and understanding stories, hopefully in more context too, methods to walk the path that have existed for thousands of years, seeking wisdom. And I'm more aware that things will most likely change for me later in life too, as right now I honestly believe I have never hurt anybody without cause, as anyone who got knocked out with their eyes rolled into the back of their heads knows they heard me say at least 5 times I didn't want to fight, and they had to push me so far and so hard there can be no doubt they know it's all their fault, and hopefully they learned a lesson as well. But basically I'm sayin not sure what I would ask forgiveness for right now, but I'm aware that there are still concepts and awarenesses that I have not yet discovered or understood in the right light that may come to be more clear in the future. And when that day comes I will probably open my Bible and read some more and find meaning and understand why I have missed that certain point in the Bible for so long, even as others have told you many times before exactly what I might realize at that point, but can only truly understand it from experiencing it for myself and going through the motions.

[Phatscotty]

I see a lot of white guilt today, even some white people who feel so guilty despite obviously being the best they can be personally and in this life never done anything wrong or racism based, straight up lying and creating some completely ridiculous stuff in an effort to multiply their guilt. When I was tracing back the source of the 'genderbread man' It brought me to the site 'itsspelledmetrosexual.com' or something like that. I was checking it out and it had a big section for white people to admit things in their life they got away with, likely just because they were white. One guy said he got pulled over for speeding with no license and no insurance, the cop did not ticket him and let him drive home, even after this guy says he just blew a hit from his blunt right into the officers face..... I mean, wow, anyone actually believe that? Some of the things I saw in there and started to give me the feeling that these white Progressives hate themselves, and that's why nothing is ever good enough no matter how much they get of what they want, nothing can fill the empty hollow. By all means, if you have zero respect for yourself and want to trash yourself and exaggerate to make it seem like toxic waste, do it to yourself man.... why bring your entire race down with you, trash millions of people you don't even know and will never meet, and help create and lend credence to a new racial stereotype like white guilt? And a stereotype that is coming to be fully accepted, mentioned and exercised in high schools and white guilt is now an everyday topic and studied in colleges all across America. And nobody will criticize one who makes that generalization about all people based solely on skin color.....Seems pretty clear they are going to spend the rest of their lives selling themselves out and dedicated to kissing everyone else's ass. They must believe they hold no value, and their only worth is to serve others like a slave or something? I have some question at the bottom for people like these.

But first, let me say I understand how it is certain people have become to feel guilty for slavery, as well as why it seems to be an overbearing burden and much more a personal guilt for seemingly so many more people today than in my generation, even as 'Progress' has been made the entire time. And that's where I think a big part of religion plays very importantly and where our lack of religion/increase of secularism has costed us greatly.... gratitude and thankfulness. If we all look at our ancestors, without placing an artificial limit on how far back 'counts', I would bet we all have slavery in our blood, and we all have someone who benefited from slavery in our blood. To me I am grateful slavery of the old world has been abolished. I am proud that my country was wise enough even in birth to be very careful to guarantee America was just as much a place where slavery was abolished as it was where slavery was legal and practiced, at all times, and that my country ended slavery within it's very first born generation. To me, that says my country was fully aware and making the statement that slavery was WRONG, and it WAS NOT going to be swept under the rug. And to me, slavery in the South was much more a system set up over centuries and many many generations by Europeans, Asians, Russians, and probably by every kind of people there was living in the world at the time. Even Africans owned slaves in America. And knowing that the 3/5's clause was a good thing, and that those who wanted slaves not counted at all, 0/5, was because they did not want slave states to get more legislators through population counts in the census. They did not want them counted as 0/5 because they were 'less human beings' Ya know who wanted slaves counted fully as human beings? THE SLAVE ONWERS! That way the slave states would have more power in Congress. I remember a few times in school, all the way up the public chain, being taught that '3/5 was because the whites did not see blacks as full human beings, just a fraction of one' And I think that is one of a few big lies that cause a lot of people who feel so strongly so much about slavery in America to actually not know very much about the thing they seem to base their life philosophy on and how they live it.

To me, that is keeping slavery in context. Every country has had slaves in the past, every people at one time or another. Slavery is in the Koran, the Torah, the Vedas, and the Bible. Slavery is a human problem, it has nothing more to do with location and it has nothing to do with race. It has EVERYTHING to do with who/what is in power at the time, and how they use that power.

Besides slavery and what it is/isn't to America, white non-reaction to a specific thing that is fully provable and all caught on camera, and black over-reaction to the same specific thing that is not provable at all, obviously something is wrong with this picture and we are nowhere near on the same page dare I say in the same book. Is a race just generally empathetic and lethargic and meh overall, and does not give a crap about their race at all or thinks its an outdated concept we are beyond? Or is a race just honest and reasonable, and even though it's all on tape, they understand that the kid reaching into his pocket could easily be interpreted to be him going for a gun, and that the police were there specifically looking for a person reported to have a gun (there's your answer Greek that you no doubt thought would be the opposite) and they are responsible with the situation and do not riot if this cop (non-white) who made a tragic mistake goes to jail or doesn't get a trial and do not only see race and skin color. Or is it that one race is way overplaying the same thing based on racist assumptions and stereotyped prejudice, and nobody will stand up to them even as the violence and directly related murders as well as secondary killings and deaths both intentional/accidental as well as directly racially motivated beatings landing innocent people in a coma continue? And as these racially motivated beatings are ignored and put on the back burner, I ask why any of this is going to change when whites become a minority, and if we can expect it to only get worse?

My take here; this is what setting up this racial division and then harnessing it into real power looks like. And knowing how this was all set up... "“By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them”

So, how are white people acting collectively today in our time, in our lifetimes, What has the white race done with their power and how did they use it? As well, how are black people acting today collectively in our time, what has the black race done with their power, and how are they using it? I know one thing for sure, the power is being used very differently, so that's why I gotta ask. When whites become the minority soon, can whites expect to receive same/similar treatment? Or will everybody just be like 'SUCKER IDIOTS! HAHA YOU FELL FOR OUR RACE HUSTLE and now you white boys gonna find out what it feels like to have the wrong complexion for the connection and the shit will be flyin in the right direction!' Will we still only be handpicking a certain races possible assumed injustices for national headlines? Which obviously means white injustice does not deserve to be talked about, which implies the white race deserves to be treated as less important. And that's why I ask, because now white stereotypes are all of a sudden acceptable, but nobody elses is? White victims of police shooting, which in fact went down virtually the exact same way many imagine it went down for Michael Brown, ALL on CAMERA, but is not worth the time or effort because his skin color is white? If Dillon were black, he would easily and in a day replace Michael Brown as the poster child and have his injustice known around the world. But he's white, and we don't demand justice for white victims. This path we are on, where white injustice is less important, look how we got here. people in one race can say certain words and it's honky dory. someone in another race says the exact same words, regardless of meaning or content, they are likely to get fired, disgraced publicly, branded a racist, and probably face threats the rest of their lives. To the point where whites are called out as racist if they say a single thing about 'Annie' being played by a black girl, Black Santa, black James Bond.... while I suspect things would play out quite differently if Shaft or Kunta Kinte were to be played by white actors. Even Barack Obama, officially half white, will ALWAYS be played by a black actor. See what I mean, the white race is automatically disrespected, the black race is automatically claimed as the better race. Why are so many trying to be so sensitive to blacks, trying to be ultra politically correct, trying to express their white guilt.... why do you feel so guilty when you are bending over backwards for others, while at the same time others are taking everything away from you and yours. all historically white icons can be made black, but no black icons can ever be made white. you cannot say certain words, and that list is only likely to grow and be used more and more bitterly against you in the future, yet you continuously insist on bending over backwards to give others power over you. I want to know, why are you doing this?

There is a very good reason for these questions, because despite all of our 'Progress' we have made, nobody seems grateful for it, nobody seems thankful or seems to respect that a society has worked so hard and struggled the whole way to overcome. In fact, people are angrier than ever/feel more guilty than ever at our society because of it's history So then what is it we are actually doing and trying to do, despite our intentions? What results do you expect?

[_sabotage_]

For fucks sake Scotty.

Are we racist?
Of course we're racist. What qualities are displayed through our racism?

We stereotype because stereotyping often gives us a decent grasp of a background, we can then define the person within a context. The Ugly American: sorry Saxi, I don't know you, but you don't seem to fit this category. So I'll shove you into the Travelled American group. Some of us will make this categorical transition for Saxi almost instantly based on the way he subconsciously tips his whiskey before replying. Others will relegate him to the first category regardless.

Our racist tendencies can either be an obstacle or a way towards better understanding depending on our flexibility in dealing with the obstacle.

Then it depends on our reaction this creates. While Chinese are quite racist, they react in an almost positive fashion due to their racism. Towards Asians, including minority groups in China: condescending support or intellectual contempt if the support is ignored. Towards brown and black people: polite fear. Towards Europeans: a sense of inferiority masked by formality, or outright gushing.

The racism is non-violent and non-destructive.

White guilt, or a reaction by some white people to their existent racism, is objectionable to you because you practice your preferred method of white racist reaction: competition.

This form of racism is the kind which is universally despised and the reason for white guilt. The Western European race is the only one to circumnavigate the world to subjugate all other races to their desires. They took the form of racial competition and applied it to all six continents.

You maintain this form of racism. And yes, you are a sucker. Your a hard little worker bee getting taxed out your ass because you believe in competition amongst races. Your form of racism has been thrust upon you, just as white guilt has been thrust upon others and you wiggle like a puppet whenever someone pulls your string. You're a German Shepard trained to herd. Can you hear that? I think they just whistled...

[Phatscotty]

Thanks for participating Sabby, even if you did so just to call me a racist. Even though I would have liked to see you give your take just a few questions I posed, you aren't American and don't live here and I won't hold that against ya.

However I'd like to hear more details about how I believe in competition among the races, rather than just using that opportunity to make some negative assertions. I would have enjoyed the chance to say before that I believe in interracial solidarity, in that we are all Americans, who have been successfully divided along racial lines. I don't see how I can address the situation to further what I think is right or even just merely discuss the issue by ignoring entire races in fear it may look competitive. I deign to assume that is the kind of 'racial cowardice' that Obama and Eric Holder and Progressives keep talking about, and I am the last person to be afraid of being labeled anything. This is the second time I feel like you tried to tilt this into racial cowardice. Try a bit to be more objective. I'd much rather you were clear in what you say than satisfying your urge to go negative.

Meanwhile, I had thought i was just in direct competition with anyone who happens to sell sandpaper and gojo to autobody shops in my region while I don't have a clue as to the race of my competition. But it seems you are speaking of another layer of racism far beyond the topic matter, maybe not. You may not be able to resist making it about me personally, but would you give it a shot please? I'd like to hear more about what you are saying.

[Phatscotty]

separately and specifically; racial competition is the reason for white guilt? White guilt is objectionable to me because I practice racial competition? Can you elaborate on this please? Here I thought white guilt was objectionable to me because I don't think people should feel guilt for something they did not personally do, regardless of race. Placing guilt/accusing people that did not personally do or endorse or help the thing that is said should have guilt for is one of the red flags of neo-cheating/emotional manipulation. Nor do I believe the sons should be held accountable for the doings of the fathers, not to mention a possible doing of a great great great great grandfather of which we don't even know if they did the right thing or the wrong thing? Nor do I believe a race should be held accountable for what a small fraction of that race did 3-4 centuries ago in a tiny fragment of the world and had just as many if not more of that race fighting against said accusations.

Do you feel guilt because your country sent some military troops to Iraq which participated or at least gave support in one way or another to countless deaths of innocent children? Is that because of racial competition? I wouldn't assume though as you have and do that there weren't numerous and obvious other possible factors, none of which have to do with race.

[_sabotage_]

I said everybody is racist. I am American, born in Montana, lived in Seattle til 10.

You saw American History X. I will link if requested, but wardens have admitted to using the prison population to control themselves. They offer a contraband channel to one group, that generally revolves around race. That groups leader then trades with the other leaders, but maintains his group through racial divide.

Humans are herd animals. By creating such a hierarchy, the warden has left some meat on the bones along a divide that is then reinforced by the divide rather than by guards. He has elevated the guards position and pitted the prisoners against themselves.

What is wrong with the prisoner mentality then? It insists on limited resources and each man in fear of his life. They have far more to gain by coordinating than by allowing themselves to be divided. It would be far better in society if everyone involved was working towards the greater good of their community, which is what capitalism is supposed to do, but power comes from the barrel of a gun is what our society insists on. We get power from the synthesis of power to the fittest (which is based on exactly what you posted, that whites may have to collectively fear for our position, that is position is racially derived, rather than based on individual merit) combined with what you term white guilt. Put these two things together and oila! you've kept people in check.

Competition shouldn't be about race, it should be about making the community better for the people who live there, and black, brown, red, yellow and white live together. We all have racist tendencies, but how we react to these tendencies is where we either build or destroy. How we react in the extreme is the merit we base our community on.

At the moment we are allowing a police state to broaden its reach and authority over all members of the state by excusing it through racial debate. The state grows stronger while the people are distracted from prospering.

And then as we fail to prosper, the concept of racial competition grows stronger.

[_sabotage_]

You give merit to the idea that divides will occur along race and that one party may gain over another party by such means. While it is true, or can be made true, it doesn't have to be inherently true.

We can work to make the world great for 20,000,000,000 people and all kinds of other life, or we can say only stepping on someone can lift us up.

About Iraq, shouldn't you feel guilt? It was the amalgamation of the system you partake in that decided it could benefit by certain acts against another system. You fed into the system and fed off it. It promised freedom and turned the country into execution grounds.

[betiko]

This cop needs to be tossed into prison. But he'll be cleared by a grand jury and won't face any consequences for his mistake.

If a regular citizen shot this kid and then claimed "I thought he had a gun!", does anyone think that regular citizen would get away without at least having to face a jury?

If a cop is going to shoot someone, he/she damn well better be absolutely sure he is in the right and not just "I was afraid" is going to cut it. They are cops, they have to accept that there are certain risks to their jobs. They can't go gunning people down just because they are afraid.

The cop didn't see a gun, he just thought the kid had a gun. Those mistakes have to be stopped, period. It doesn't matter the race of the cop or the victim, that cop is too stupid to ever have even been allowed to be a cop. And far, far too afraid to do his job correctly. Cops are about the most scared, paranoid people on the planet. Not a good thing when armed and with the protection of the State behind one like that.

Racism is the red herring, the real issue is the idiocy of the police. And that idiocy is getting people killed for no good reason at all.

f*ck the police.

Wow, i fully agree with everthing patches says here.

[betiko]

While i disagree with you on most subjects, I completely agree with your viewpoint here.

I bet ya we agree on most subjects, and we just disagree on certain variants. I bet we could possibly end up in agreement on many variants as well, chop much of the rest out to different principles n values along with geopolitics and be totally okay with that at the end of that day.

I don't really care so much about agreement, never have. Should be obvious by now I don't really seem to care about disagreement either What I do care about; clarity, details, examples. Some people can't handle it, some people can. Not exactly sure what that means about the disagreezeez who can't handle it, but I do have a theory. I think some part of it, in many to most of those who disagree and seem overly distraught about it to the point not being able to befriend anyone who disagrees or getting between family members even.... They are in love with themselves and anyone who doesn't agree is hated/or think they are perfect and anyone who doesn't agree believes in lies/or think they are smarter than everyone else, obviously that everyone who disagrees is stupid/that they stand for what is good, so anyone who doesn't agree is evil. What else could refusing to associate with someone based on disagreement be based on?

I think in this group where you are likely to find 2 types.

#1 a lot of knowledge, and sure they may be smart or even really smart, all kinds of college degrees, straight A's the whole way, makin 6 figures right out of the gate...and that is great, but there is little to no wisdom. That's not a lowblow either, they simply haven't had the chance really to have any true experience in various issues/fields or had enough time play out to see how things change. Wisdom can only come with experience and study, sometimes even error and failure can help a lot too. It's hard to know until after you get into the real world for a while and then look back. They've studied all the terms, know by heart terms you or I may have brainfarted in one ear out the other, can give you an intro to a few different types of things in a given field, but they have never been in the field. And that's okay, its the only way to learn and gain experience. Just please please, don't lecture someone in the field about how the field is from having only known the sideline your entire life! This is a big part of the reason why I try very hard not to call people mean names, try not to hurt their feelings, and I've never felt the need to build myself up by tearing others down....I remind myself they are 15 years younger, to speak a bit more, and when an older person like Saxi is speaking, I remind myself they lived the 1940's before, and to listen a bit more

#2 little knowledge/lot-o-passion. For example, and this happens to some people all their lives, they have never actually studied their opinions/beliefs, and certainly never challenged their beliefs. Evidenced by the topic matter here of not even allowing others to challenge it either, and just hating/blocking them instead. These types have studied their talking points, but only on some of the issues they already 'felt' were correct before, and any response to their talking point, they go and find the next talking point, and that's how they learn that. And hey, that's really where it all starts. The only problem I have with these types is with the one's that do not know they are just greenhorns. Some of them take their issues as gospel and make it their life's work. They parade out 'expert this' and 'expert that' while only understanding the issue through confirmation bias and likely do not even understand the reason why they should seek out different opinions, if not to only test theirs and make it stronger, or else admit that was dumb and move on.

Basically, we just have to tolerate them the way we tolerate new 16 year old kids first getting their drivers licenses every year. It's never going to change. Some 16 year olds have had 2 parents advising them every step of the way for the previous 2 years repeating common mistakes and rules over and over and over again, other 16 year olds are gonna put the gas pedal to the floor everytime the light turns green and take that left as hard as they can. It won't be long before it's wet out and they have to learn the hard way why that's a bad idea.

Where I've admitted I felt I was dumb and moved on....and this is just my experience, and I'm aware that others have different experiences, and when they disagree with me that's perfectly fine even if I do seek to challenge them all the way or not. when I was in college, for perhaps a year or so, I was the loudmouth atheist, oh so certain was I!!! Looking back, I didn't know jack shit! even though I took a class in world religion and was raised Catholic, felt I knew all I needed to know, I DID NOT KNOW SHIT about religion compared to what I know now. I based most of my religious 'thoughts' on the level of humor in the word 'skydaddy' and all the skydaddyism's my professors tossed around reinforcing that, and for most of my life thinking to myself 'so many different religions, how can they all be right?' as a yute it was more something like 'only one can be right' but as I grew older I began to understand it's so much more than that, and nothing at all to do with what religion has the correct version of purgatory or how that rule is dumb because we can eat pork now and not get sick. Right now, to me, religion is about how to seek peace for my soul, how to try to stay on the path of goodness and charity and helping others and not stray to the path of negativity or hurting others or misguiding others, how to avoid getting caught up/trapped in materialism and avoid a plastic life, believing there is a higher power, believing there is purpose. And from the Bible, it's no longer about stoning adulterers and refraining from shellfish, that's just more 101 skydaddyism. It's about seeing examples and understanding stories, hopefully in more context too, methods to walk the path that have existed for thousands of years, seeking wisdom. And I'm more aware that things will most likely change for me later in life too, as right now I honestly believe I have never hurt anybody without cause, as anyone who got knocked out with their eyes rolled into the back of their heads knows they heard me say at least 5 times I didn't want to fight, and they had to push me so far and so hard there can be no doubt they know it's all their fault, and hopefully they learned a lesson as well. But basically I'm sayin not sure what I would ask forgiveness for right now, but I'm aware that there are still concepts and awarenesses that I have not yet discovered or understood in the right light that may come to be more clear in the future. And when that day comes I will probably open my Bible and read some more and find meaning and understand why I have missed that certain point in the Bible for so long, even as others have told you many times before exactly what I might realize at that point, but can only truly understand it from experiencing it for myself and going through the motions.

Well i just can t stand zealots, and at some point of a conversation you are facing such indoctrinated people that it s just impossible to discuss something, as rock solid evidence mean jack shit to them and everything their holy book says is the truth. And yes, using a religion the way you describe it is ok, the problem is that a lot of people want to promote "their truth" as the one and only truth as they are so much better than the rest of mankind...

Bottom line... Saxi claims to be our age dude!

[Metsfanmax]

See what I mean, the white race is automatically disrespected, the black race is automatically claimed as the better race. Why are so many trying to be so sensitive to blacks, trying to be ultra politically correct, trying to express their white guilt.... why do you feel so guilty when you are bending over backwards for others, while at the same time others are taking everything away from you and yours. all historically white icons can be made black, but no black icons can ever be made white. you cannot say certain words, and that list is only likely to grow and be used more and more bitterly against you in the future, yet you continuously insist on bending over backwards to give others power over you. I want to know, why are you doing this?

You should take a dose of your own medicine. You have no idea what it is like to be black in this country, and you don't know what experiences people have gone through that have led them to conclude that racism is really a big deal in this country. So why are you spending so much time trying to convince them that they are wrong? Those of us who take racism seriously do so precisely because so many black people talk about how it affects their everyday lives. We don't do it because of statistics or news stories, we do it precisely because of the stories told by people who really experienced what happens to them.

[AndyDufresne]

I like all Star Trek races.


--Andy

[betiko]

See what I mean, the white race is automatically disrespected, the black race is automatically claimed as the better race. Why are so many trying to be so sensitive to blacks, trying to be ultra politically correct, trying to express their white guilt.... why do you feel so guilty when you are bending over backwards for others, while at the same time others are taking everything away from you and yours. all historically white icons can be made black, but no black icons can ever be made white. you cannot say certain words, and that list is only likely to grow and be used more and more bitterly against you in the future, yet you continuously insist on bending over backwards to give others power over you. I want to know, why are you doing this?

You should take a dose of your own medicine. You have no idea what it is like to be black in this country, and you don't know what experiences people have gone through that have led them to conclude that racism is really a big deal in this country. So why are you spending so much time trying to convince them that they are wrong? Those of us who take racism seriously do so precisely because so many black people talk about how it affects their everyday lives. We don't do it because of statistics or news stories, we do it precisely because of the stories told by people who really experienced what happens to them.

Sure there are some real racist ignorant fucks, but sure minorities victimize themselves a bit too. All is done to create a dichotomy... Why would it even be relevant to talk about someone s ethnic origins about anything anymore? Ethnic origins mean jack shit, it s all about the social class.
So basically a white trash living in a trailer gets less marginated than a black attorney in 2014 usa, really?
There is a big % of the black community living under poverty level, much more than "normal" proportions would suggest. This is what marginalises people. Thinking that your race is your problem is what doesn t make you move forward. Mounting communities ones against the other, and creating that spirit is what is really dangerous.the concept of a racist society is the inception of the racist society.

[mrswdk]

Thinking that your race is your problem is what doesn t make you move forward. Mounting communities ones against the other, and creating that spirit is what is really dangerous.

it s all about the social class.

[Metsfanmax]

Sure there are some real racist ignorant fucks, but sure minorities victimize themselves a bit too. All is done to create a dichotomy... Why would it even be relevant to talk about someone s ethnic origins about anything anymore? Ethnic origins mean jack shit, it s all about the social class.
So basically a white trash living in a trailer gets less marginated than a black attorney in 2014 usa, really?
There is a big % of the black community living under poverty level, much more than "normal" proportions would suggest. This is what marginalises people. Thinking that your race is your problem is what doesn t make you move forward. Mounting communities ones against the other, and creating that spirit is what is really dangerous.the concept of a racist society is the inception of the racist society.

Your whole argument seems to be making the point that it is some giant coincidence that many black people in the USA are poor, that it really has nothing to do with their skin color. This is, to be charitable, an interpretation not supported by the relevant facts.

There is validity in where you're going with this: Zinn in People's History of the United States argued that the upper class generally tried to pit poor whites against (poor) blacks as a way to let race get in the way of the true thing that was keeping everyone down. But that doesn't mean that race is unimportant in explaining how we got here, or where we need to go.

[Army of GOD]

tl;dr

[Metsfanmax]

tl;dr

You contribute nothing to this community, and should leave.

[Army of GOD]

I thought we were friends =(

[Army of GOD]

Also, that's a comma splice

[Phatscotty]

This cop needs to be tossed into prison. But he'll be cleared by a grand jury and won't face any consequences for his mistake.

If a regular citizen shot this kid and then claimed "I thought he had a gun!", does anyone think that regular citizen would get away without at least having to face a jury?

If a cop is going to shoot someone, he/she damn well better be absolutely sure he is in the right and not just "I was afraid" is going to cut it. They are cops, they have to accept that there are certain risks to their jobs. They can't go gunning people down just because they are afraid.

The cop didn't see a gun, he just thought the kid had a gun. Those mistakes have to be stopped, period. It doesn't matter the race of the cop or the victim, that cop is too stupid to ever have even been allowed to be a cop. And far, far too afraid to do his job correctly. Cops are about the most scared, paranoid people on the planet. Not a good thing when armed and with the protection of the State behind one like that.

Racism is the red herring, the real issue is the idiocy of the police. And that idiocy is getting people killed for no good reason at all.

f*ck the police.

The cop was cleared, which just goes to show what some have been pointing out all along. It's nearly impossible to indict a cop, and the race of the person they shot doesn't play a factor at all into whether they are cleared or indicted. And it also shows this isn't only about black lives, it's about all lives. And after seeing the 911 call, I'm starting to come to the same conclusion he should have been indicted, his badge recalled, and be doing some time...except I can't ignore what Dillon did, as accidental as it was, as innocent as it turned out to be. That's where awareness comes in. The cop doesnt know Dillon didnt have a gun, and Dillon had no way to know the cop was praying that Dillon did not put his hands into the one place Dillon put his hands, and that was because someone mistakenly reported that pocket/waistband there was likely to be a gun. The officer was way out of his element and seemed indeed to be an idiot, to show no consideration at all that the caller herself didn't seem to sure about anything she called to report. It's nothing but tragic and sad a with mistakes all the way around, but in the end the cop did something he should not have done, didn't even yet have the information on which to base the decision.

“They are obviously looking for trouble just the way they look,” the caller stated. While she reported that “the one in the red hat had a gun,” when asked where the gun was located, she couldn’t answer. Then she seems to recant her original statement, saying he had “something in his pocket.”

When asked what race the suspect was, she reported that he was black, then said “um no Mexican, was it?” talking to another person who can be heard in the background.

When asked if she or anyone was in immediate danger, she said “No, not at all.”

It's a tough thing to say to police, but I don't see any other way around it. They have to wait to see if it's a gun, or a cellphone, or the birdie. To make the decision to risk your life that extra second....whew I mean sure, train away, do whatever they can, but gotta admit, when it comes down to things that happen in a second or two....ugh this just sucks. I am reminded here of the speech from any given Sunday...

You know, when you get old, in life, things get taken from you. I mean, that's... that's... that's a part of life. But, you only learn that when you start losin' stuff. You find out life's this game of inches, so is football. Because in either game - life or football - the margin for error is so small. I mean, one half a step too late or too early and you don't quite make it.

I also don't see any way around cops are going to make mistakes, more and more when it comes to split second decisions, and in fact we need to be aware of that and even try to do what we can to avoid giving off the wrong signals, impressions, or what we may or may not be reaching for. Yes, it's shitty, but WILL prevent a lot of accidents if only we were more aware. I know that's asking a lot, especially of younger people buried in their cellphones and just not having a lot of experience in the world, but it really isn't that much compared to what we demand police do concerning waiting to see a gun/ perhaps pointed at them, before they take their shot. And really, until some laws change or something else big happens, I'm not sure we have any other options anyways besides ***!ATTENTION!***

This one is all on the cop, I'm not even sure he should have had his gun out in the first place, but then again I'm not a cop nor do I have their training or know procedures for how to handle reportedly armed people walking down the street. But it's also true, if Dillon would not have reached into his pockets, the cop would most likely not have made any mistake at all. That doesn't mean Dillon did something wrong or deserved anything, imo it just means he did something, unbeknownst to Dillon, the something he did is coincidentally the absolute last thing that a cop who is called to check him for a gun wants to see him do, and that is reach into his pockets or waistband or whatever.

Now, if this happened like it happened, and Dillon did not reach into his pockets or anywhere but was still shot, damn right that cop should be brought up on charges. Take his badge, sentence him to some time. The events are not unknown to us, we know exactly what happened, and what didn't happen. Nothing is assumed. The reason this cop was cleared is because it really did look like the guy reported to have a gun was going for a gun, and I'm sorry to both parties but I would probably think the exact same thing if I were the cop, and I would only pray to God my training could and would overcome was must have been a life flashing moment of instinct for the cop. What I'm saying is the cop did have reason to fear, based on false information, yes, but the cop did not know that. Just as Dillon did not know that the cop was called there specifically to get/check the gun in the exact same spot Dillon reached for. I'm not saying the cop didn't screw up and shouldn't be punished, just that there is something that needs to be understood there besides the understanding that ultimately the cop failed and make a huge mistake. I just wish Dillon was a member of CC here and I had wrote my ***!ATTENTION!*** thread a bit earlier and he could have read it before he died. I am pretty sure I did not know about Dillon when I wrote that, but hopefully it can prevent a accidental death in the future, and I don't care that I got a lot of heat for it either. For what I know, hundreds of people currently who have read it and potentially hundreds more in the future, for the rest of their lives, they just may remember to put the thinking cap on and be extra cautious. I mean really, a person with a gun and the right to use it when they think they need to and knowing they never get indicted is reason enough for my attention, and my concentration to keep my hands visible, not to reach for anything.

This whole thing is sad. In my perfect America I would see the peaceful protesters of Ferguson make a trip to Utah and the protesters in Utah show solidarity in Ferguson, and together they would do the right things and make the rights demands and not cease until they some action had been taken. And in perfect America THAT would be the headlines on the news and in the media and have nothing to do with race. And the media would focus on police training and body cameras, as well as spend 1-2 minutes letting the citizens know that they can also have an impact and play party in boosting their awareness when pulled over/confronted, and to understand what police do, how they are trained to do it, and why they do it that way and for what reasons.