Paris

[waauw]

A - Arab world/Middle East. You say tomato, I say tomato. In any case that still leaves at least Iraq and Syria.
B - I'm operating on a slightly tighter definition than 'has trade links with'
C - you say bombed and overthrew the government, I say neo-colonialism. The point is still that over the past few centuries at least, the pattern very certainly has not been the Middle East actively threatening European countries.

The Ottoman empire was one of the biggest actors in european wars for centuries up until WWI. So you saying the middle east didn't threaten europe in the past few 'centuries', plurial, is dead wrong.

and if you have a different definition for neocolonialism, then you should start off with it. I'm not psychic, if you use a term, I assume you mean the actual dictionary definition of the word. So please state in precise words what is neocolonialism according to your perception.

[mrswdk]

cba to talk about the Ottomans because tbh they are just one piece in the game.

The other points though:

Also, neocolonialism has nothing to do with military attacks. Definition from the oxford dictionaries:

The use of economic, political, cultural, or other pressures to control or influence other countries, especially former dependencies.

Since when was attacking the country in order to force the government out and install your favored opposition not 'The use of economic, political, cultural, or other pressures to control or influence other countries'?

[waauw]

cba to talk about the Ottomans because tbh they are just one piece in the game.

Easy talking. So because not every single country in the middle east tried to invade that means none of them have?

The fact is it's Saudi Arabia that is funding islamism in europe. They pay for almost all the mosques and they appoint the imams for those mosques. They are actively trying to convert europe to islamism, just as the middle-east has been trying for over a thousand years. The only thing is, nowadays they are using different means. They've simply reached their militaristically lowest-point this last century.
==> This is an attack on western values and way of life. For similar reasons the chinese communist party has created its own catholic church to make sure chinese catholics don't get overly influenced by the Vatican.

Since when was attacking the country in order to force the government out and install your favored opposition not 'The use of economic, political, cultural, or other pressures to control or influence other countries'?

I was already correcting that as you were typing. The point is you gave neocolonialism a new definition by saying you use a a slightly tighter definition than 'trade links'. If you use a word, people will assume you go by dictionary definitions. But instead you use your own personal dictionary. I'm not a psychic, I can't guess what your definition is. So please state your EXACT definition of the term 'neocolonialism'.

[Phatscotty]

Battle of Vienna

Sobieski's greatest success came in 1683, with his victory at the Battle of Vienna, in joint command of Polish, Austrian and German troops, against the invading Ottoman Turks under Kara Mustafa.[27][32]

Upon reaching Vienna, with the Ottoman army close to breaching the walls, Sobieski ordered a full attack on 12 September. On early morning of that day, the united army of about 65,000[33]–76,000[32] men (including 22,000,[33] 25,000[32] or 27,000 Poles[27]) attacked a Turkish force of about 80,000[33]–115,000[32] men. At about 5 pm, after observing the infantry battle from the hilltop, Sobieski led the Polish husaria cavalry along with Austrians and Germans in a massive charge down the hillside. Soon, the Ottoman battle line was broken and the Ottoman forces scattered in disarray.[34] At 5:30 pm, Sobieski entered the deserted tent of Kara Mustafa and the Battle of Vienna ended.[30][32]

The Pope and other foreign dignitaries hailed Sobieski as the "Savior of Vienna and Western European civilization."[35] In a letter to his wife, he wrote, "All the common people kissed my hands, my feet, my clothes; others only touched me, saying: 'Ah, let us kiss so valiant a hand!'"[36]

The war with Ottomans was not yet over, and Sobieski continued the campaign with the Battle of Párkány on 7–9 October.[37] After early victories, the Polish found themselves a junior partner in the Holy League, gaining no lasting territorial or political rewards.[37] The prolonged and indecisive war would also weaken his position at home.[37] For the next four years Poland would blockade the key fortress at Kamenets, and Ottoman Tatars would raid the borderlands. In 1691, Sobieski undertook another expedition to Moldovia, with slightly better results, but still with no decisive victories.[37]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_III_Sobieski

[saxitoxin]

The fact is it's Saudi Arabia that is funding islamism in europe.

Agreed.

However, the Saudi royal family (hand-picked and installed by the UK) is only clinging to power with the help of its German-built tanks, its French built artillery, its British-built warplanes, and its American-built helicopters. Europe deserves to sleep in the bed it made.

And for all the hysteria about ISIS destroying Roman ruins, the Saudis have destroyed more ancient cultural treasures in the last century than just about anyone. The minute the British put them in power they desecrated the grave of Uthman because their crazy Wahabist fundamentalism forbids monuments. They currently have plans to raze the historic birthplace of Mohammed in Mecca as well. This has all occurred over the objections of the mainstream Muslim community as well as archaeologists and historians around the world ... meanwhile western governments, for all their crocodile-tears about historic sites elsewhere, have remained silent about the Saudis ongoing demolitions.

[Dukasaur]

The fact is it's Saudi Arabia that is funding islamism in europe.

Agreed.

However, the Saudi royal family (hand-picked and installed by the UK)

Is this some alternate universe?

The British were opposed to Al Saud's conquest of Arabia. They did recognize his conquest of Nejd in 1924 and the rest of Arabia in 1927, but that was simply accepting a fait accompli that they couldn't do anything about.

In 1924 Europe was falling into a financial crisis. Weimar Germany was in the midst of its famous hyperinflation. Britain had undergone good economic growth since the war, but the government's accounts were still in tatters, and the financial spillover from the German meltdown was enough to send Britain into a steep recession. Against that backdrop, fighting an expensive foreign war to prop up their Rashidi/Hasheamite allies and preventing Al Saud from conquering Nejd was simply unaffordable. Britain's first Labour government was philosophically opposed to foreign interventions in any case. So, reluctantly, the British recognized the legitimacy of Al Saud's conquests.

Revisionist propagandists have tried to recast this as British support for the Saudis, but there's no evidence the British achnowlegement at the Riyadh Conference was given with any enthusiasm. Britain was simply accepting what had already happened on the ground. They probably couldn't have stemmed the tide even if they had intervened. Ditto for the rest of Al Saud's conquests and the Treaty of Jeddah.

[saxitoxin]

The fact is it's Saudi Arabia that is funding islamism in europe.

Agreed.

However, the Saudi royal family (hand-picked and installed by the UK)

Is this some alternate universe?

The British were opposed to Al Saud's conquest of Arabia. They did recognize his conquest of Nejd in 1924 and the rest of Arabia in 1927, but that was simply accepting a fait accompli that they couldn't do anything about.

In 1924 Europe was falling into a financial crisis. Weimar Germany was in the midst of its famous hyperinflation. Britain had undergone good economic growth since the war, but the government's accounts were still in tatters, and the financial spillover from the German meltdown was enough to send Britain into a steep recession. Against that backdrop, fighting an expensive foreign war to prop up their Rashidi/Hasheamite allies and preventing Al Saud from conquering Nejd was simply unaffordable. Britain's first Labour government was philosophically opposed to foreign interventions in any case. So, reluctantly, the British recognized the legitimacy of Al Saud's conquests.

Revisionist propagandists have tried to recast this as British support for the Saudis, but there's no evidence the British achnowlegement at the Riyadh Conference was given with any enthusiasm. Britain was simply accepting what had already happened on the ground. They probably couldn't have stemmed the tide even if they had intervened. Ditto for the rest of Al Saud's conquests and the Treaty of Jeddah.

Guess Britain shouldn't have made a deal with the devil (Ibn Saud) for the sake of kneecapping the Ottomans during WWI, huh?

But I can commiserate with Britain's feelings that the world's largest and most modern army was no match for a few thousand (at most - literally) sword-wielding guys on camels. After being wiped out in Zululand by naked men with sticks it's hard to imagine the British would be much of a match for a country with camel technology.

Also, you skipped past the part where Britain is flooding Saudi Arabia with arms and munitions today, in 2015. Poor Britain, they always have such noble intentions and yet there's always a tornado of forces beyond their control that is forcing them to do this and that.

[saxitoxin]

LOL, France is announcing they launched a "massive" air strike on ISIS ...

France launches 'massive' airstrike on Isis stronghold of Raqqa after Paris attack

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/n ... ris-attack

If you read the fine print, it says they dropped as many as 20 bombs. So that's 10 tons of explosives in one day. On February 13, 1945, Dresden had 850 tons of explosives dropped on it. That's a "massive" attack. This is blowing kisses. Plus, with French military budget cuts, they're probably all out of bombs now.

Further, they were probably just hitting empty desert and elementary schools. If they actually had targets why didn't they launch an airstrike before the Paris attack? This was just political bluster to help prop-up Hollande's collapsing approval ratings.

[waauw]

*sigh* The Paris terrorism mastermind was apparently seen around the Baudouin stadium 'Heizel' in Brussels. No football game tonight

[mrswdk]

==> This is an attack on western values and way of life. For similar reasons the chinese communist party has created its own catholic church to make sure chinese catholics don't get overly influenced by the Vatican.

That's because the Chinese government is hyper-wary of any kind of mass movement or organization that isn't the Communist Party, and especially one whose followers answer to a foreign power (as Catholics answer to the Vatican). It's about preventing the possibility of any kind of mass opposition forming, not controlling people's values.

Similarly, the people who attacked Paris are not 'attacking the Western way of life'. They are hitting back at the country which is currently strafing their headquarters in Syria.

Since when was attacking the country in order to force the government out and install your favored opposition not 'The use of economic, political, cultural, or other pressures to control or influence other countries'?

I was already correcting that as you were typing. The point is you gave neocolonialism a new definition by saying you use a a slightly tighter definition than 'trade links'. If you use a word, people will assume you go by dictionary definitions. But instead you use your own personal dictionary. I'm not a psychic, I can't guess what your definition is. So please state your EXACT definition of the term 'neocolonialism'.

Then my definition is: The use of economic, political, cultural, or other pressures to control or influence other countries. IIRC the definition I saw also made the point that neocolonialism especially relates to regions or territories which the neocolonialist used to hold as a colony, a tick box which also fits the UK/France's interference in the Middle East.

So I was correct. Hurray

[mrswdk]

If you read the fine print, it says they dropped as many as 20 bombs.

I was wondering that. Surely when the president is firing off all these blood-curdling quotes about 'destroying' IS and ordering his troops to rain down on their jihadist heads like the fires of Hell, the army could come up with something better than taking a couple of pot shots and then heading home again.

Putin would show those saps what a real backlash looks like.

[Bernie Sanders]

If you read the fine print, it says they dropped as many as 20 bombs.

I was wondering that. Surely when the president is firing off all these blood-curdling quotes about 'destroying' IS and ordering his troops to rain down on their jihadist heads like the fires of Hell, the army could come up with something better than taking a couple of pot shots and then heading home again.

Putin would show those saps what a real backlash looks like.

Lookie here boys and girls!

mrswdk sucking up to Saxi and GoranZ and their worldview of Putin the Mighty! What a joke.



I believe most of us, see through the ridiculous ramblings of Saxi, Goranz and their little groupie mrswdk.

[mrswdk]

If you read the fine print, it says they dropped as many as 20 bombs.

I was wondering that. Surely when the president is firing off all these blood-curdling quotes about 'destroying' IS and ordering his troops to rain down on their jihadist heads like the fires of Hell, the army could come up with something better than taking a couple of pot shots and then heading home again.

Putin would show those saps what a real backlash looks like.

Lookie here boys and girls!

mrswdk sucking up to Saxi and GoranZ and their worldview of Putin the Mighty! What a joke.



I believe most of us, see through the ridiculous ramblings of Saxi, Goranz and their little groupie mrswdk.

I already thought the news about France's latest bombing raid was pretty lame before I saw saxi laughing at it. What, you think 20 bombs comes anywhere close to living up to Hollande's rhetoric?

You need some new gifs btw.

[Bernie Sanders]

Nothing BIG happens overnight mrswdk. France will retaliate more in time. Takes time to move boots, material and getting intel.

Listening to Saxi, GoranZ and yourself about shortcomings about France responses, but the great strides that Russia has made in Syria is stretching the truth and facts that are going on right now. Really, the tyrants running Russia and China should be your greatest concerns, unless you want to act like some propagandist in some weird out of touch world.

[mrswdk]

Nothing BIG happens overnight mrswdk. France will retaliate more in time. Takes time to move boots, material and getting intel.

Listening to Saxi, GoranZ and yourself about shortcomings about France responses, but the great strides that Russia has made in Syria is stretching the truth and facts that are going on right now. Really, the tyrants running Russia and China should be your greatest concerns, unless you want to act like some propagandist in some weird out of touch world.

I picked Russia because they are the ones who have most recently demonstrated the capacity to bite as well as bark. Make no mistake, Russia is just one of many organizations which I feel could teach France how to kick some IS ass.

Other organizations capable of dealing a more brutal blow to IS than France just did include Israel, Kurdistan, Egyptian highway patrol, the staff of Dubai McDonald's, or indeed anyone with access to weapons and a working set of trigger fingers.

[saxitoxin]

Nothing BIG happens overnight mrswdk. France will retaliate more in time. Takes time to move boots, material and getting intel.

What boots? What materiale? You seem to have an 1880s view of French military capabilities.

Make no mistake, France just blew their load with those 20 bombs they described as a "massive attack." The French military has been cut to the bone in the last 10 years. Their next, and last, big asset they're moving into the region is a small and decrepit old aircraft carrier equipped with a couple dozen 1970s-era aircraft that belong in a museum.

Do you think there's a reason that Hollande, yesterday, called for Russian military aid to France? Do you think there's a reason that, today, Hollande initiated a phone call with Putin to discuss coordinated operations and schedule an immediate in-person meeting? Do you think this is coincidence this comes immediately after multiple pundits (http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/16/why-nato ... -isis.html, http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... s-war.html)have said NATO is a "no go" in supporting France?

We're discussing reality, not reading Tom Clancy poems and whistling Sousa marches.* For the sake of everyone here who isn't American, please make sure the flag you've wrapped yourself in covers your mouth.

* BTW, my favorite Sousa march is Nobles of the Mystic Shrine.

[GoranZ]

They should've voted the Le Pens in back in the 80s. France would be better as a dictatorship.

Dictatorship for whom? It would have been only bad for the Muslims, but others wouldn't feel the difference.

If you read the fine print, it says they dropped as many as 20 bombs.

I was wondering that. Surely when the president is firing off all these blood-curdling quotes about 'destroying' IS and ordering his troops to rain down on their jihadist heads like the fires of Hell, the army could come up with something better than taking a couple of pot shots and then heading home again.

Putin would show those saps what a real backlash looks like.

Lookie here boys and girls!

mrswdk sucking up to Saxi and GoranZ and their worldview of Putin the Mighty! What a joke.



I believe most of us, see through the ridiculous ramblings of Saxi, Goranz and their little groupie mrswdk.

You say most of "us" but who are you referring to? I would like to know who is as dumb as you

Nothing BIG happens overnight mrswdk. France will retaliate more in time. Takes time to move boots, material and getting intel.

Listening to Saxi, GoranZ and yourself about shortcomings about France responses, but the great strides that Russia has made in Syria is stretching the truth and facts that are going on right now. Really, the tyrants running Russia and China should be your greatest concerns, unless you want to act like some propagandist in some weird out of touch world.

You should really stop telling other countries how they should govern themselves. Both China and Russia are being governed by capable leaders who do as much as they can for their countries. If you dont like that its really your problem, not theirs.

Abdelhamid Abaaoud – alleged mastermind of Paris attacks

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Saxi did you have a tough childhood? Or is there some reason why you are so focused on the negative in the world?

[Bernie Sanders]

Saxi did you have a tough childhood? Or is there some reason why you are so focused on the negative in the world?

As a young man he was bullied by American Jews, thus the reason for his hatred for everything American and Jewish.

[GoranZ]

Saxi did you have a tough childhood? Or is there some reason why you are so focused on the negative in the world?

Saxy is realistic... you are the one with problems

Now is the time for support and aid.

It is not the time for judgement or argument.

There are 4-5 million potential Islamic terrorist muslims in France, what kind of support you are referring to?

Take your bigoted views elsewhere

Now is the time for support and aid.

It is not the time for judgement or argument.

There are 4-5 million potential Islamic terrorist in France, what kind of support you are referring to?

What a fucking BS are you saying ? Don't make short cut as this one, it's horrible ! Stay unite, don't divide !

How did the Bosnians and Turks reacted in Football matches?

Bosnia fans during minute of silence - Republic of Ireland vs. Bosnia and Herzegovina - 16/11/2015


Minutes silence in turkey didn't go down too well...
https://vine.co/v/iuW9DKFL9nX

Bigot you say? How about no
P.S. Once again... There are 4-5 million potential Islamic terrorist in France

[saxitoxin]

Saxi did you have a tough childhood? Or is there some reason why you are so focused on the negative in the world?

Negative? France discovering the extent to which NATO will help it is with supportive tweets is a positive from my perspective. This morning, Hollande finalized his ideological split with NATO by announcing "we're looking for the political solution to the problem, which is not Bashar Assad. Our enemy in Syria is ISIL" which is a 180 from him regurgitating the U.S. line "Assad must go" for the last 2 years. The Ba'athist idea has spent months on the edge, but things are suddenly looking ...

[waauw]

How did the Bosnians and Turks reacted in Football matches?

Bosnia fans during minute of silence - Republic of Ireland vs. Bosnia and Herzegovina - 16/11/2015


Minutes silence in turkey didn't go down too well...
https://vine.co/v/iuW9DKFL9nX

Not surprising. Everybody knows the balkan has the most hardcore hooligans in europe, especially Albania.
And the Turks, they really shouldn't wonder why nobody in europe likes them. Our prisons are full of Turks.

[Phatscotty]

If you read the fine print, it says they dropped as many as 20 bombs. So that's 10 tons of explosives in one day. On February 13, 1945, Dresden had 850 tons of explosives dropped on it. That's a "massive" attack.

[Bernie Sanders]

Saxi did you have a tough childhood? Or is there some reason why you are so focused on the negative in the world?

Negative? France discovering the extent to which NATO will help it is with supportive tweets is a positive from my perspective. This morning, Hollande finalized his ideological split with NATO by announcing "we're looking for the political solution to the problem, which is not Bashar Assad. Our enemy in Syria is ISIL" which is a 180 from him regurgitating the U.S. line "Assad must go" for the last 2 years. The Ba'athist idea has spent months on the edge, but things are suddenly looking ...

Assad started the destruction of his own country by killing peaceful demonstrators just a few short years ago. Assad really hated having anyone disputing his government.