Donald Trump really risks angering China

by **Symmetry** on Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:47 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Daft tactics really. Taiwan has plenty in common with China, and would like closer ties, but as with Hong Kong, they've had a taste of freedom and don't want to let it go.

Hopefully NOT as Hong Kong. We have all seen how that one is going!

Not great, of course, but HK doesn't have the kind of military stand off that Taiwan has either.

by **mrswdk** on Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:09 am

Trump even acknowledging her shows that he either can't or won't grasp something about diplomacy. That said, just because Trump is being more open and explicit in his desire to destabilize China than Obama has been doesn't mean that this is anything new from Beijing's perspective. Obama, supported by Clinton and then Kerry, has done everything in his feeble power to undermine China in its own backyard (see: military incursions in the East and South China Seas, backing any neighbor of China that enters into a territorial dispute with China, trying to ally with all China's neighbors to disrupt its new economic corridor etc.) so Beijing is well used to dealing with a hostile and combative US. America's intransigence has not thrown China off course so far, and will not throw it off course in future.

Ultimately Trump, much like Obama, will reveal that his bark is much worse than his bite as the US simply cannot afford to sit on one side of the world and bully an economic and military superpower sat on the other side. The only possible way America could win, and successfully remain a major player in the region, is to start playing the diplomatic game and launch a charm offensive on China's regional neighbors, to win them over and persuade to all become best buds with the US, but with Donald 'Twitter Spat' Trump at the helm, ya know... :lol:

by **Bernie Sanders** on Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:22 am

mrswdk wrote:Trump even acknowledging her shows that he either can't or won't grasp something about diplomacy. That said, just because Trump is being more open and explicit in his desire to destabilize China than Obama has been doesn't mean that this is anything new from Beijing's perspective. Obama, supported by Clinton and then Kerry, has done everything in his feeble power to undermine China in its own backyard (see: military incursions in the East and South China Seas, backing any neighbor of China that enters into a territorial dispute with China, trying to ally with all China's neighbors to disrupt its new economic corridor etc.) so Beijing is well used to dealing with a hostile and combative US. America's intransigence has not thrown China off course so far, and will not throw it off course in future.

Ultimately Trump, much like Obama, will reveal that his bark is much worse than his bite as the US simply cannot afford to sit on one side of the world and bully an economic and military superpower sat on the other side. The only possible way America could win, and successfully remain a major player in the region, is to start playing the diplomatic game and launch a charm offensive on China's regional neighbors, to win them over and persuade to all become best buds with the US, but with Donald 'Twitter Spat' Trump at the helm, ya know...

Despite my dislike of Trump, we need to play rough with the Chinese aggressors. Diplomacy with China is ridiculous.

China keeps North Korea afloat and their territorial aggression in the South China Sea is unacceptable.

China will implode in a trade war with the U.S. of A. We have the advantage economically and it's time we use our economic power!

by **Bernie Sanders** on Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:24 am

We need to FUK China over and return to watching over our American workers!

by **waauw** on Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:34 am

Bernie Sanders wrote:We need to FUK China over and return to watching over our American workers!

For the workers!!

by **mrswdk** on Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:59 am

Bernie Sanders wrote:Despite my dislike of Trump, we need to play rough with the Chinese aggressors. Diplomacy with China is ridiculous.

You are right. If Obama had spent just a little more time writing stroppy tweets during his tenure, China would probably have collapsed years ago.

China keeps North Korea afloat and their territorial aggression in the South China Sea is unacceptable.

lol
US runs ships and planes through disputed regions of the South China Sea - 'just protecting freedom of navigation!'
China runs ships and plans through disputed regions of the South China Sea - 'this is how Hitler started!'

by **Bernie Sanders** on Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:39 am

Poor China, being picked on......

by **Symmetry** on Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:27 pm

Did you know that the EU spent more on foreign aid in a year than China has in the last 60 years combined? It's an interesting little stat, open to a variety of interpretations, but all the more fascinating for it.

The US and EU have a lot of soft power that Beijing is rightly wary of. China stresses that its aid come with no strings attached, which should pass literally nobody's BS detector, especially given that one obvious string is that countries can't recognise Taiwanese sovereignty.

by **mrswdk** on Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:40 am

Symmetry wrote:Did you know that the EU spent more on foreign aid in a year than China has in the last 60 years combined? It's an interesting little stat, open to a variety of interpretations, but all the more fascinating for it.

The US and EU have a lot of soft power that Beijing is rightly wary of. China stresses that its aid come with no strings attached, which should pass literally nobody's BS detector, especially given that one obvious string is that countries can't recognise Taiwanese sovereignty.

You barely passed the 50-word mark and yet you've still managed to fall flat on your face, again. Does China lack financial clout, or does China use its significant financial clout to pressure people into not recognizing Taiwan as a nation state? It's funny enough that you've implied two directly contradictory things, but even funnier that neither are correct in the first place.

Regarding your first point: you, as a Brit, should know China's financial clout better than most, Symmetry. Haven't you seen the BBC footage of British leader after British leader travelling to Beijing to glad hand Chinese ministers, then inviting them to come put their feet up in Buckingham Palace, then lobbying the EU to be nicer to China, then going back to Beijing for some more glad handing? Did you see Theresa May put a hold on the Hinkley Point deal in order to try and stamp her authority on her role as PM, only to cave the next day and re-approve it after the Chinese kicked up a fuss? Why do you think Britain is so keen to give China all these hand jobs on the sofa with everyone watching? That's right: China has lots of money to spend.

So now we're in agreement that China possesses significant financial clout, on to your point about China using that clout to pressure people into snubbing Taiwan: no one in the world recognizes Taiwan as a separate entity to the mainland. Everyone recognizes Taiwan and the mainland in combination as one whole nation state. The only dispute is whether the government in Beijing or the government in Taipei is the rightful government of all of China, and no one except a handful of tiny, unimportant entities (e.g. Nauru, the Holy See) recognize the administration in Taipei as the rightful government. 171 nations - including the US, UK, Germany, France and Russia - recognize Beijing as the legitimate government, for much the same reason as those nations recognize Washington - and not the Navajo Confederation - as the legitimate government of all of the US: it just obviously is.

by **waauw** on Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:47 am

mrswdk wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Did you know that the EU spent more on foreign aid in a year than China has in the last 60 years combined? It's an interesting little stat, open to a variety of interpretations, but all the more fascinating for it.

The US and EU have a lot of soft power that Beijing is rightly wary of. China stresses that its aid come with no strings attached, which should pass literally nobody's BS detector, especially given that one obvious string is that countries can't recognise Taiwanese sovereignty.

Regarding your first point: you, as a Brit, should know China's financial clout better than most, Symmetry. Haven't you seen the BBC footage of British leader after British leader travelling to Beijing to glad hand Chinese ministers, then inviting them to come put their feet up in Buckingham Palace, then lobbying the EU to be nicer to China, then going back to Beijing for some more glad handing? Did you see Theresa May put a hold on the Hinkley Point deal in order to try and stamp her authority on her role as PM, only to cave the next day and re-approve it after the Chinese kicked up a fuss? Why do you think Britain is so keen to give China all these hand jobs on the sofa with everyone watching? That's right: China has lots of money to spend.

In other words, the british are open to accept bribes.

by **mrswdk** on Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:04 am

waauw wrote:In other words, the british are open to accept bribes.

The UK isn't the only ailing EU economy willing to turn tricks for China. The Belgian PM was recently in China promising Belgium was happy to change its economy in whatever way Chinese businesses demand, and Wallonia - the Belgian region which tried to torpedo the EU-Canada trade agreement - has been only too eager to set its dislike of trade deals aside to spear head Belgian efforts to court China.

by **Bernie Sanders** on Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:59 am

Again I say, "FUK CHINA!"

China has everything to lose in a trade war. America can close it's doors to China and China will fall into immediate DEPRESSION. With over a BILLION MOUTHS to feed, this would spell riots and the overthrow of the Communist regime.

No doubt American consumers would be hurt by rising prices, but we can manufacture the same garbage that China builds.

by **mrswdk** on Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:27 am

While we're making threats that have absolutely 0% chance of ever coming to pass, if the US bans all imports of anything from China then China will steal the sun and make the US pay to access it.

by **Bernie Sanders** on Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:30 am

mrswdk wrote:While we're making threats that have absolutely 0% chance of ever coming to pass, if the US bans all imports of anything from China then China will steal the sun and make the US pay to access it.

No, America won't outright ban all goods from China, nope. We still need their rare earth elements.

by **mrswdk** on Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:43 am

Oh yes, that's right:

5 years after crisis, U.S. remains dependent on China's rare earth elements

Good luck launching a trade embargo against the country that is basically the OPEC of rare earths. Beijing could snap its fingers and destroy America's advanced economy overnight, and that's why Trump will soon go back to being a good pussy cat just as Obama has been before him.

by **waauw** on Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:42 pm

mrswdk wrote:
waauw wrote:In other words, the british are open to accept bribes.

The UK isn't the only ailing EU economy willing to turn tricks for China. The Belgian PM was recently in China promising Belgium was happy to change its economy in whatever way Chinese businesses demand, and Wallonia - the Belgian region which tried to torpedo the EU-Canada trade agreement - has been only too eager to set its dislike of trade deals aside to spear head Belgian efforts to court China.

Yeah, I might have gotten swept up by the propaganda over here. These days there's as much anti-UK rhetoric as there is anti-Russian rhetoric.

by **mrswdk** on Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:47 pm

lol, is the Belgian press hatin' on the UK a lot these days?

They say there's no better way to learn history than to live it - roll on the British War of Separation aka the start of WW3!

by **waauw** on Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:01 pm

mrswdk wrote:lol, is the Belgian press hatin' on the UK a lot these days?

They say there's no better way to learn history than to live it - roll on the British War of Separation aka the start of WW3!

Since Brexit non-stop. I think they actually mean it as pro-EU rhetoric with anti-british hints as a by-product.