INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[dakky21]

My vote on Pika is because he said I am insinuating something and is just repeating what was already said and is accepting that blacky is probably town and doesn't thing that the bussing thing is "even worth considering". Therefore trying to steer the conversation in the way he wants.

What's scummy about pointing out that you were clearly trying to insinuate something but not actually saying anything?
What's scummy about believing blacky365 is probably town based off of the evidence we have?
What's scummy about disregarding wild speculation based on absolutely no evidence?

Why does any of this, when paired with the lack of a night kill, mean that I must be scum and tried to kill you last night, especially if we already have evidence of at least two others being attacked?

You did ask things, but you never said why is bussing not "even worth considering" or why you assumed I said YOU were the one who "tried to kill me last night". You're digging your own grave mate

[Razorvich]

MOD NOTE:
Chap reported on my wall that he was unable to post in the thread due to a server error.
I have also received reports from other areas of the site where this was an issue.
I am unsure if this is still happening, or if chap can post now, but will seek further clarification with the GOATS of CC.

[TX AG 90]

Mets has no active games but logged into CC today. Maybe he is lurking.

Hi Mets!

[ZaBeast]

OK, some interesting developments, maybe. Here's a list of players:

show: spoilered for shortness

I'm pretty sure I did this correctly. Anyway, the names in BLACK have not commented since D2 began (that could be scummy, or not). The names in red commented in D2, initially, but not after the mod asked if anyone was having trouble posting. Finally, the names in blue have posted continuously during D2.

Let's assume that at least two of those who haven't commented (names in black) during D2 are scum. Based on other games I"ve played, they might not be able to communicate until N2. Perhaps they are licking their wounds wondering what went wrong with the wrong target getting poisoned? Second, perhaps there is something wrong wherein the players in blue above can no longer post? Third, if we are left with the 5 players in red, we are going to get real tired on listening to one another...lol. Let's hope that things return to normal and the "lost" players come back. Other comments or interpretations?

The day is not even 48h old and already you think 2/3 people who haven't posted since it began must be scummarining. A bit too outrageous of a claim for me. You seem to have a thing with voting inactives though. Also interesting to note that you say them not posting doesn't necessarily mean they are scum, then go on saying 2 of them are. Also now you're assuming blacky's been poisonned by scum, and not a 3rd party for instance? What makes you think that?

My mail says i am fresh water but unless you are a sponge even the salt water one doesn't appear to be very dangerous.

Do any of you have their habitat stated in the role pm in one way or the other? Because I don't, and neither does the example role pm

For post above i was referring to the links provided at the time of the statement.Go back and read for yourself.

Except you specifically say your PM has that info
I am just asking a simple question to the rest of town, is it mentionned in anyone's role pm whether they are saltwater or freshwater?

[ZaBeast]

You seem to have a thing with voting inactives though.

Also, going for inactives is one of the lowest-effort accusation you can make

[BuJaber]

I do not think the approach of dakky and chap to paint certain things as scummy ever comes from town.

It sounds like they had a pre-planned agenda they are following.

Also I was hit with a post restriction which I believe came from scum. This might be egotistical but I think my posting in day 1 was contributing positively to the discussion, so for me to be silenced is an anti-town move. If I were suspected by a townie who thought I could be scum it doesn't make sense for them to silence me because that only makes it harder to sort me. Town would want me to talk more so they have more stuff to analyze.
This coupled with the fact that chapcrap is trying to paint the people not posting as scummy THIS EARLY in the day makes him incredibly suspicious.

Vote chapcrap

[BuJaber]

To clarify, dskky is interpretting normal questions from pika that are not alignment indicative and somehow thinking they come from someone who tried to kill him??

Why and how?

Also 2 other people claim someone tried to kill them. Why would the guy who publicly warned everyone on day 1 that he is able to protect himself from incoming attacks think that someone tried to kill him? And not only that but thinks that the guy would immediately start talking to him in day 2 and 'exposing' himself like that.

How does that make any sense?

[Ragian]

@dakky, it's only reasonable that Pika did away with the bussing idea. We have no evidence to suggest it. We might as well assume alien meddling or other outrageous stuff.

In that same vein, let's ignore discussing the existence of a healer. We'll get proof and blacky has said his part. Actually, Blacky, seeing that you might be dead by the end of D2, make today count. Who is scummy to you and why?

@beastie, my pm doesn't specify type of water, but given my species, it would be redundant information anyway.

It's the weekend, and apparently a lot of people have issues posting. Let's not pollute the thread too much with irrelevant speculation.

I'm on my phone till tomorrow, so I apologise if I've forgotten anything.

[Pikanchion]

you assumed I said YOU were the one who "tried to kill me last night". You're digging your own grave mate ;)

dakky21: did that post actually have a point to it?

Yes, that post was for you scum. You tried to kill me but you couldn't find me hence no night kill.

Actually

Vote Pika

This is me making an assumption in your eyes?

—

BuJaber, are you able to say any more about the nature of your PR?

[BuJaber]

BuJaber, are you able to say any more about the nature of your PR?

I was not allowed to post until a VC was posted that had at least 2 votes on a single wagon.

I was not told what the consequences of breaking said restriction would have been.

[jfm10]

BuJaber, are you able to say any more about the nature of your PR?

I was not allowed to post until a VC was posted that had at least 2 votes on a single wagon.

I was not told what the consequences of breaking said restriction would have been.

I never unvoted dakky so i would like to put my vote back up
vote dakky21

I am curious if it's possible that Bujaber and blacky went for food last night and the poison and silence may have been effects?

[Pikanchion]

Do you have any idea who did it? Or why? Were you eating?

I am curious if it's possible that Bujaber and blacky went for food last night and the poison and silence may have been effects?

Night time BONUS:
At anytime, anyone can waive their night action and attempt to find their favorite food.
IF you find your favorite food you have a:

• 30% Chance of eating it and gaining 200 CREDITS plus one extra UNIQUE night action, to be used during the next night.
• 50% Chance of missing your prey and looking like a fool (All will know you went for it)
• 20% Chance of becoming a night kill

Success will reward you FAILURE MAY MEAN DEATH. *Can only be won once, attempted many times

If anybody attempted to find food last night and was unsuccessful, we would know about it.

—

So Tobikera suggests that several of those who of those who have yet to post are scum, and in the same post even speculates specifically about post restrictions: "perhaps there is something wrong wherein the players in blue above can no longer post?" Now, BuJaber claims to have been the target of a post restriction. Tobikera's post restriction comment looks awfully like a scum slip to me.

[strike wolf]

Alright now that inventory is done at work and I've gotten some sleep I should have time to read up today.

So I have some potentially important information but I would need a clearer claim from JFM before I can know for certain if it's worth mentioning or just going to add to the confusion.

FP'd by Pika: that is indeed interesting and Tobi is already towards the top of my scum list. Like I said, need to read through the last 2 or so pages to catch up but for now, good catch.

[Metsfanmax]

So, my question stands. You found him scummy enough for a lynch? Enough with a very strong town role being claimed? That’s not directed just at Ragian. Mets, Tobi, you added votes post claim. Others did not unvote. Why?

I posted my reasoning at the time. You can go read the thread if you want to find it. This looks a lot like a rhetorical "why?" Which is fine. Ragian has made the point succinctly that we acted on the best information we had at the time. Sometimes that ends up wrong.

Why is him being poisoned a sign of him being town?

I wouldn’t have thought it’s absolute proof, but it’s far more likely

In this particular game, I see no evidence for the claim that scum are more likely to have a poisoner than town. In fact I think it's the opposite; scum have a night kill, it's OP if they also have a poisoner. Note also that town had a wiretapper which does not seem like a typical town role.

I'm surprised about how many people initially just took him at his word that he was poisoned when we don't yet have evidence that it happened. In particular, Pika's comment about how confident he is that blacky is town looks weird coming after Tobikera's withdrawal of his initial confidence, and after the discussion with dakky. I also find his reasoning suspect:

I don't think arguments relying on bussing are even worth considering when we have no reason to suspect such a role exists yet.

Busdrivers/redirectors are very common. I'd be surprised if a 16 player game didn't have one. But more to the point, the fact is that we should have less confidence in the situation as a whole precisely because we don't yet know what roles are out there. That should be the take away, not "I can disregard the possibility of this because I have no evidence for it." I'm with Ragian on not driving the speculation too far, but I'm also with dakky that you don't just take someone on their word that easily in this game.

Mets has no active games but logged into CC today. Maybe he is lurking.

Hi Mets!

Hi.

Why does everybody have to be so cryptic all of a sudden?

It's D2. You don't give away all your information just because you have it.

I will make an actual proper post later today; but a quick clarification is that by attacked I mean someone tried to kill me.

This is surprising. The combination of circumstances wherein a person who was attacked survived and also knew that they were attacked is fairly uncommon.

[Tobikera]

So Tobikera suggests that several of those who of those who have yet to post are scum, and in the same post even speculates specifically about post restrictions: "perhaps there is something wrong wherein the players in blue above can no longer post?" Now, BuJaber claims to have been the target of a post restriction. Tobikera's post restriction comment looks awfully like a scum slip to me.

@PIkachon: I was areferring to the message from the mod on the bottom of page 22. If you look at the mod's WALL, you will see that chapcrap complained about not being able to post. It was to that that I referred. As to those not posting perhaps being scum, and not knowing that BuJaber was actually restricted from posting, I was a bit hasty. However, it just seemed strange that initially there was a group of 3 or so who were not posting at all during D2, who did post a lot during D1. That coupled with blacky saying he was poisoned made me reason that the scum were licking their wounds after screwing up on a hit.

[Tobikera]

metsfanmax said:

In this particular game, I see no evidence for the claim that scum are more likely to have a poisoner than town. In fact I think it's the opposite; scum have a night kill, it's OP if they also have a poisoner. Note also that town had a wiretapper which does not seem like a typical town role.

I'd like to hear other people's opinions about the likelihood that a poisoner is Town, and not Scum or a 3rd Party. I have something to share in this matter, assuming blacky is being truthful about being poisoned, but don't want to spill the beans if it means another Townie with a weird capability gets lynched. I've played with or against a Town Poisoner before (but, of course, neither have I played for or against a Town with my capability....still getting my head around that one).

metsfanmax said:

Busdrivers/redirectors are very common. I'd be surprised if a 16 player game didn't have one. But more to the point, the fact is that we should have less confidence in the situation as a whole precisely because we don't yet know what roles are out there.

Bus drivers (not as likely in this aquatic game...water taxi drivers maybe...lol) and re-directors can unknowingly do as much harm to Town as to Scum. As you said, we don't know who and what roles are out there...only the Scum know themselves. Given this potential threat to both sides by their night time choices, I would think that a re-director would be less likely to reveal him/her self for fear of a joint lynch campaign. Thoughts?

[strike wolf]

Poisoner being town seems less likely to me than scum or third party. I'm pretty sure I've seen it happen in a non-wacky balanced game, it's just not super commo n as a town role. Honestly it's not super common period but has popped up more often as a secondary mafia kill or a variation of a Serial Killer. If town/third party, it doesn't really have a bearing on Blacky's alignment. If scum, it would be indicative of Blacky being town. We can't prove the alignment of the poisoner and 3rd party to me seems as likely as any other option, this would really only be a very slight town tell for Blacky. I also don't see much reason for Blacky to lie about being poisoned at the moment so I am going forth on the assumption he is telling the truth.

[Tobikera]

Correction to my last post: I have NOT played with a town poisoner before.

[aage]

Generally, anyone trying to kill people N1 is not town in my book.

Dakky is seeing... things. I'm not sure but I think he's resorted to his usual suicide strats. I'm not a fan.

Gonna reread the past couple pages now, but I think Ragian was the only one to answer my question? My memory is hazy but I'm sure there were more votes on Pershy than that.

[aage]

Okay, something else did grab my interest.

A healer was mentioned in my N1 info from the mod. It's not me, but there is one. So, there's hope for blacky.
And, of course, this throws him into the town grouping.
He also could have been poisoned by misdirection, like a bus driver or some other misdirecting role.
That is, someone else was intended to be poisoned, but that action was re-directed to blacky.
One of the downsides to mis-direction roles, they can sometimes hurt innocent townies.

I guess you're just lining out the possibilities here? Pretty early to bust out the busdriver possibility though, especially when you're spending most of your post discussing it. Also, (this has already been discussed,) if there is a busdriver it doesn't necessarily make Blacky an "innocent townie".

OK, some interesting developments, maybe. Here's a list of players:
1 blacky365
2 dakky21
3 Tobikera
4 jfm10
5 Strike Wolf
6 ZaBeast
7 Skoffin
8 Pikanchion
9 BuJaber
10 chapcrap
11 TX AG 90
12 Ragian
13 pershy - LYNCHED Day 1
14 aage
15 Sirius Kase
16 Metsfanmax

I'm pretty sure I did this correctly. Anyway, the names in BLACK have not commented since D2 began (that could be scummy, or not). The names in red commented in D2, initially, but not after the mod asked if anyone was having trouble posting. Finally, the names in blue have posted continuously during D2.

Let's assume that at least two of those who haven't commented (names in black) during D2 are scum. Based on other games I"ve played, they might not be able to communicate until N2. Perhaps they are licking their wounds wondering what went wrong with the wrong target getting poisoned? Second, perhaps there is something wrong wherein the players in blue above can no longer post? Third, if we are left with the 5 players in red, we are going to get real tired on listening to one another...lol. Let's hope that things return to normal and the "lost" players come back. Other comments or interpretations?

Don't really care for that post restriction comment but it's whatever. He outright assumes that at least(!) two out of three people who haven't posted yet are scum - pretty silly if you ask me, but mostly interesting how he doesn't move in on any of these three, >66% is pretty good odds - but here's the punch. Again he brings up the redirection thing. "The wrong target getting poisoned".

In this particular game, I see no evidence for the claim that scum are more likely to have a poisoner than town. In fact I think it's the opposite; scum have a night kill, it's OP if they also have a poisoner. Note also that town had a wiretapper which does not seem like a typical town role.

I'd like to hear other people's opinions about the likelihood that a poisoner is Town, and not Scum or a 3rd Party. I have something to share in this matter, assuming blacky is being truthful about being poisoned, but don't want to spill the beans if it means another Townie with a weird capability gets lynched. I've played with or against a Town Poisoner before (but, of course, neither have I played for or against a Town with my capability....still getting my head around that one).

Busdrivers/redirectors are very common. I'd be surprised if a 16 player game didn't have one. But more to the point, the fact is that we should have less confidence in the situation as a whole precisely because we don't yet know what roles are out there.

Bus drivers (not as likely in this aquatic game...water taxi drivers maybe...lol) and re-directors can unknowingly do as much harm to Town as to Scum. As you said, we don't know who and what roles are out there...only the Scum know themselves. Given this potential threat to both sides by their night time choices, I would think that a re-director would be less likely to reveal him/her self for fear of a joint lynch campaign. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that Tobi may be considering claiming Town Poisoner here. I also think he is once again suggesting we have some form of busdriver AND he is actively trying to stop one from claiming by threatening them with getting lynched.

I would say that Tob knows more than he's letting on, and he's letting on a hell of a lot with these posts. From what he's been posting, I draw the conclusion that he either knows something about a busdriver or he knows who the intended target for the poisoning was and is slipping up hard.

Sorry chapcrap, you're up next time I promise.
Unvote, Vote Tobikera
Time to fess up.

[Tobikera]

Okay, something else did grab my interest.
I would say that Tob knows more than he's letting on, and he's letting on a hell of a lot with these posts. From what he's been posting, I draw the conclusion that he either knows something about a busdriver or he knows who the intended target for the poisoning was and is slipping up hard.

Unvote, Vote Tobikera
Time to fess up.

Congratulations, aage! Although your conclusions are wrong, I've been dropping bread crumbs, trying to get people's attention. Most folks here don't seem to pay attention to anything I say, or dismiss it out of hand. But, you actually went back and read things. Thank you. I believe I can present the poisoner to this group for lynching, and blacky is part of my proof. I'm not sure the weekend, when some are away, is the best time to present my proof. Perhaps Monday morning will be better, eh?

[dakky21]

Exactly what I said... and now part of your proof is associated with Blacky... I already said you were either the poisoner or you are the bus driver (or water taxi as you said yourself). That is not a proof of alignment though and yeah, my vote will stay on Pika for now.

[TX AG 90]

Is it possible the poisoner has a passive ability. Maybe Blacky's night action triggered the passive effect.

Care to share Blacky?

[TX AG 90]

Question: In Mafia, is it possible for someone to have a daytime kill action? If so, how would that work?

[strike wolf]

If you know something about the poisoner, there's really no good reason to wait until Monday to say it. I really haven't liked a lot of what you've done this game. I didn't particularly like how you admitted to only voting early for the purpose of forcing a claim. I didn't like how quick you were to unvote Pershy and try to direct his action onto yourself. Like aage I thought the activity list and then failure to follow through was strange. I don't really like how you're saying you know something about the poisoner but want to delay saying it.

Just say it.