INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Metsfanmax]

This I don't agree with. jfm's play was shitty for a towny, yes, but we didn't know that he was a towny. His play and his claims simply made no sense for a town player. I like to assume that I'm playing with reasonable people, and I figured he couldn't be town if he were reasonable.

His play and his claims made no sense for any player. It was not reasonable regardless of which side he was on. Which is why it was never alignment-indicative.

If he did turn out to be town, I considered it an acceptable loss because his play was utterly unreasonable.

Sure, I'm generally OK with "bad players are an acceptable loss" as an approach. I said something similar on D1. But if that's the case, then it's much harder to read alignment from it. It's going to be hard to figure out who on the jfm wagon was scummy. But that only makes sense if you already think it's likely that the person is scum, and I'm arguing that absolutely no one at the end of D2 ought to have had any confidence that they knew what jfm's alignment was.

he could just as easily have been scum.

In other words, you flipped a coin. So no, I don't feel bad for calling you out on not scumhunting.

[Metsfanmax]

Did anyone get poisoned?

I was poisoned, and the information I received suggests that it's a result of the person who I visited last night.

[Ragian]

Jmf was a vig not a poisoner, right?

[Ragian]

Did anyone get poisoned?

I was poisoned, and the information I received suggests that it's a result of the person who I visited last night.

Which suggests a passive poisoner.

[Sirius Kase]

Bubbles again. So, someone doesn't breathe with gills. That's info that has been mentioned twice, but does it tell us anything?

jmf was a vig, but does that indicate his method of attack? Easy to think poison until Mets tells us he was poisoned.

How many attacks per night?

[blacky365]

Did anyone get poisoned?

I was poisoned, and the information I received suggests that it's a result of the person who I visited last night.

I ask with some hesitation, but would you want to say who you visited?

I did not say who I visited yesterday because I did not want to give away what I had done... with jfm’s revelations, I’m truly glad I didn’t!

Fp’d by sirius

[aage]

Did anyone get poisoned?

I was poisoned, and the information I received suggests that it's a result of the person who I visited last night.

I feel I should call bullshit on this.

Firstly, why wouldn't you lead with this, and instead put it in your third post of the day?
Secondly, jfm may have played erratically but if he wasn't the source of the poison how would he know (a) there is a doctor, and (b) that doctor can cure poison? The first one is not an impressive guess but the second is less obvious.
Thirdly, despite his irrational play, why would jfm lie to the town a second time by claiming a "kill" he did not perform? If he didn't poison Blacky, his whole credits based motivation for that schtick goes out the window. There's a second poisoner now?

This honestly reads to me like a bad attempt at not being today's lynch "cause he'll die anyway".

[Ragian]

I'm sorry to add to the weirdness, but my night result (not telling you whether I performed any night action or went for food) pm reveals the existence of a healer. Surely, jmf must have gotten a similar pm with his night results. I seem to recall Tobi saying that he heard of a healer, too.

[BuJaber]

Anyone else sick of hearing about these damn healers?

[blacky365]

Did anyone get poisoned?

I was poisoned, and the information I received suggests that it's a result of the person who I visited last night.

I feel I should call bullshit on this.

Firstly, why wouldn't you lead with this, and instead put it in your third post of the day?
Secondly......
This honestly reads to me like a bad attempt at not being today's lynch "cause he'll die anyway".

I have to agree with this. When I was poisoned yesterday, my first reaction was holy crap, I better get this out there quick.
This was mets third post of the day and neither of the two previous were anything special so why wait?

Fp’d by buja
Buja... why would you be sick of healers?
Unless ure scum and you don’t want ppl to be healed?!?

[BuJaber]

To be fair to Mets, SW did say he would go after Mets whether jfm flipped town or scum, but I don't like that he's already trying to misuse my reasoning as a shield.

Regarding Dakky, his theory about another poisoner being in the game is... dumb. I don't have a real town read on him, maybe I'm letting him fly under the radar with his commuter claim.
Do you think we're so close to LyLo that something should be done about it, BuJ? Do you think he's more likely to be scum than Mets or you other suspect, TX?

With no night kills twice and what appears to be a saved vig kill, I don't think we're in danger yet.

I just prefer to deal with it earlier when it's relatively safe.
But no if I answer honestly I don't think dakky is more likely to flip scum than mets.

TX I definitely don't feel confident enough on to push while scummier slots exist.

[BuJaber]

It was a joke blacky, about how repetitive the idea of a healer is getting.

[blacky365]

I know!
Dont worry... however in this game every word you say can be twisted and used against you!

[Metsfanmax]

Did anyone get poisoned?

I was poisoned, and the information I received suggests that it's a result of the person who I visited last night.

I feel I should call bullshit on this.

Firstly, why wouldn't you lead with this, and instead put it in your third post of the day?

Because I needed to get ahead of strike's BS from the end of D2 first, about how I'm scum either way. Didn't think it mattered that it took almost a whole three hours to bring it up.

Secondly, jfm may have played erratically but if he wasn't the source of the poison how would he know (a) there is a doctor, and (b) that doctor can cure poison? The first one is not an impressive guess but the second is less obvious.

I don't know how jfm knew what he knew. Perhaps Ragian's response sheds some light onto it. It has little to do with whether I'm telling the truth or not.

Thirdly, despite his irrational play, why would jfm lie to the town a second time by claiming a "kill" he did not perform? If he didn't poison Blacky, his whole credits based motivation for that schtick goes out the window. There's a second poisoner now?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm still trying to figure it out too. It does seem like it was a passive poisoner.

This honestly reads to me like a bad attempt at not being today's lynch "cause he'll die anyway".

If I'm today's lynch then you all should be ashamed of yourselves, since I was one of the few people who didn't lynch town yesterday.

I ask with some hesitation, but would you want to say who you visited?

I have reason to believe that I was redirected last night, so I don't think it adds value to say who my target was, at this time.

[Pikanchion]

I have reason to believe that I was redirected last night

Just to be clear, are you saying that you know you were redirected or do you merely suspect it?

[Metsfanmax]

I have reason to believe that I was redirected last night

Just to be clear, are you saying that you know you were redirected or do you merely suspect it?

I'm fairly confident I was redirected. There are possibly other outcomes that could explain what happened, but redirection is the obvious one.

[Ragian]

Well...excuse me, but isn't Tobi our redirector? Didn't he also redirect Blacky who ended up poisoned? Two redirections, two poisoned fishies? It smells.

[Pikanchion]

I'm fairly confident I was redirected. There are possibly other outcomes that could explain what happened, but redirection is the obvious one.

So this was not the same as the last time then? -When Tobikera claimed to have misdirected your action you seemed quite certain:

I do know that my action was redirected, which I had not revealed yet, so that part of Tobi's claim holds up.

[Metsfanmax]

I'm fairly confident I was redirected. There are possibly other outcomes that could explain what happened, but redirection is the obvious one.

So this was not the same as the last time then? -When Tobikera claimed to have misdirected your action you seemed quite certain:

I do know that my action was redirected, which I had not revealed yet, so that part of Tobi's claim holds up.

To be precise, what I knew on D2 at the time I said that is that my N1 action was successful but that it had not landed on the target I submitted. I don't currently know if my N2 action was successful, but I do know it didn't land on the target I submitted.

[Tobikera]

Bubbles again. So, someone doesn't breathe with gills. That's info that has been mentioned twice, but does it tell us anything?

The bubbles could be me going after my target or prey. As a squid, I would use muscle-induced propulsion to move around. Compression of water to get that effect can release gases dissolved in the water, producing bubbles. I wasn't told this by the mod, but it makes sense given my character.

[Tobikera]

I have reason to believe that I was redirected last night

Just to be clear, are you saying that you know you were redirected or do you merely suspect it?

I'm fairly confident I was redirected. There are possibly other outcomes that could explain what happened, but redirection is the obvious one.

Well...excuse me, but isn't Tobi our redirector? Didn't he also redirect Blacky who ended up poisoned? Two redirections, two poisoned fishies? It smells.

I mis-directed Metsfanmax, if you will recall, on N1. He confirmed on D2. I did not mis-direct Blacky at any time. I did mis-direct someone else last night, but did not get a response from the mod that I was successful (see my post at the beginning of D3). Last night, I got bumped, but continued on to my target/prey with no result.

[strike wolf]

Definitely on Skoffin's side for this. The way he played that was... odd.

I doubt anyone will defend the way he played. But I recognized a wagon that was primarily based not on "this person's actions are evidence that he is scum," but rather based on "I don't like this person's actions," and I chose not to join that. aage's point sums it up perfectly: he voted for jfm because he was being an asshole, not because he was scumhunting. That seems to have been true for most of you too. I'm noting who is choosing not to own up to that, and who is actively defending that decision. And I'm especially noting the people who somehow think that those of us who weren't stupid enough to join a shitty wagon are scummy.

And scum trying to vocalize how he was "smart enough to not vote the townie" over us? check.

This I don't agree with. jfm's play was shitty for a towny, yes, but we didn't know that he was a towny. His play and his claims simply made no sense for a town player. I like to assume that I'm playing with reasonable people, and I figured he couldn't be town if he were reasonable.

His play and his claims made no sense for any player. It was not reasonable regardless of which side he was on. Which is why it was never alignment-indicative.

Except that scum are much more likely than town to lie about their role. So yes. Alignment indicative.

If he did turn out to be town, I considered it an acceptable loss because his play was utterly unreasonable.

Sure, I'm generally OK with "bad players are an acceptable loss" as an approach. I said something similar on D1. But if that's the case, then it's much harder to read alignment from it. It's going to be hard to figure out who on the jfm wagon was scummy. But that only makes sense if you already think it's likely that the person is scum, and I'm arguing that absolutely no one at the end of D2 ought to have had any confidence that they knew what jfm's alignment was.

There s also those who kept defending him even as his story fell more and more apart when only scum knew he wouldn't be aligned with them.

Also, what made you so confident to say Day 2 that you felt a poisoner was more likely to be town than scum? It's a role that s been pretty dominantly not town aligned in the past and just because this game isn't standard doesn't mean it's gonna suddenly be town. The only real reason I can see you believing the poisoner is if you specifically had a reason to believe such. Perhaps knowing that the poisoner wasn't mafia.

Now you're claiming that you've been poisoned despite the professed poisoner being dead (actually the most believable part of all this considering JFM's wacky day 2 behavior) but it's possibly passive and you can't confirm who it is because you think you've been redirected. All of this smells extremely fishy to me (pun intended).

Vote Mets

[Metsfanmax]

Except that scum are much more likely than town to lie about their role. So yes. Alignment indicative.

That's true for many rational players. It's not true for players who play like mitch. It was clear to see on D2 that jfm is some weird combination of dakky + mitch, not a normal player, so applying normal mafia rules to him seems strange to me.

There s also those who kept defending him even as his story fell more and more apart when only scum knew he wouldn't be aligned with them.

I have already said that I didn't defend him, I called out people who were voting him hastily and with poor reasoning. I had no idea how he would flip, I was just confused enough about him that I didn't think I had any useful information about his alignment.

Also, what made you so confident to say Day 2 that you felt a poisoner was more likely to be town than scum? It's a role that s been pretty dominantly not town aligned in the past and just because this game isn't standard doesn't mean it's gonna suddenly be town.

If you read the part where I said that, surely you read the very next sentence where I stated my reasoning:

In this particular game, I see no evidence for the claim that scum are more likely to have a poisoner than town. In fact I think it's the opposite; scum have a night kill, it's OP if they also have a poisoner. Note also that town had a wiretapper which does not seem like a typical town role.

I wasn't discussing at the time the likelihood of a third party poisoner, but I believe that's also more likely than a mafia poisoner.

The only real reason I can see you believing the poisoner is if you specifically had a reason to believe such. Perhaps knowing that the poisoner wasn't mafia.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. I was skeptical that there even was a poisoner at the time (in that same post, in fact):

I'm surprised about how many people initially just took him at his word that he was poisoned when we don't yet have evidence that it happened. ... I'm with Ragian on not driving the speculation too far, but I'm also with dakky that you don't just take someone on their word that easily in this game.

Now you're claiming that you've been poisoned despite the professed poisoner being dead (actually the most believable part of all this considering JFM's wacky day 2 behavior) but it's possibly passive and you can't confirm who it is because you think you've been redirected.

Yes, I am claiming that. Why would I be stupid enough to falsely claim being poisoned after what happened with jfm? It's a stupid thing to risk claiming without being prompted if it's not the truth.

[Sirius Kase]

I'm concerned about the delay before reporting that you were poisoned, but I agree, normal urgency might be pointless if SW already wants you dead.

But this:

This honestly reads to me like a bad attempt at not being today's lynch "cause he'll die anyway".

If I'm today's lynch then you all should be ashamed of yourselves, since I was one of the few people who didn't lynch town yesterday.

There was no need for you to lynch. Plenty of people already on that wagon. Maybe you would have joined in if your vote was needed. So that argument doesn't work. Don't try to shame the town. Maybe it isn't scummy, but it certainly isn't proper. Or, maybe it is scummy, I'm still learning to tell the difference between scummy and not nice.

[Sirius Kase]

Bubbles again. So, someone doesn't breathe with gills. That's info that has been mentioned twice, but does it tell us anything?

The bubbles could be me going after my target or prey. As a squid, I would use muscle-induced propulsion to move around. Compression of water to get that effect can release gases dissolved in the water, producing bubbles. I wasn't told this by the mod, but it makes sense given my character.

That's possible. I've been thinking seal or dolphin, maybe even whale, but it doesn't have to be a mammal. I also thought scuba diver, but that seems too far out.