INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Skoffin]

I've only seen the past few posts so I have a lot of reading to do, just saying for the record I only trusted dakky because of something he said about his role previously that felt too coincidental for scum to guess. Otherwise dakky can be hard to read but it's not impossible.

I also believe at least one scum would have been defending jfm - the dude was so fucking scummy it was unbelievable that anyone could support him, the only people that knew he would not flip mafia would be the mafia themselves.

[Ragian]

Towards the end, I agree with you, but not until halfway into D2.

[aage]

I'm gonna go back and analyse voting patterns later but I haven't posted for so long that I think should do something like a player list breakdown first.

1 blacky365
No read. Sorry. All we really know about this guy is that he was poisoned... other than that I don't really know the guy, and nothing he says strikes me as particularly scummy or brilliant town.

2 dakky21
His roleclaim is just a little weird. I wouldn't claim town commuter early if I was town commuter, so I'm somewhat suspicious. His posts and his theories are all over the place. One of his latest theories is that he would've been discovered by a cop if he were scum, after he announced in the thread that all night actions against him will fail. Not sure what to make of that one, other than "that's bollocks".

3 Tobikera
I considered his accusation of Mets to be that of a slightly misguided towny. He took the only variables he had and mixed them together, which isn't a very good method imo but doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. I dislike the idea of a redirecting role, and I've been thinking about the likelihood of it being a town role. He says we should all be hailing him as the golden towny, not sure why. I'm not as convinced any more that he is town, especially since he says he redirected BuJ who is one of my main town reads. Tob, do you think BuJ is scum? Did you think he was scum when you put your action in? Why?

5 strike wolf
Strong town read on this guy. I will note I find it odd that scum hasn't killed him, I guess there are other protective roles?

6 ZaBeast
Town read so far. He's attacking the people who I agree are scummy.

7 Skoffin
Doesn't say enough to really determine anything. She doesn't post much which is kinda par for the course for her, but I don't think the points she's been pushing are very good. If there was a scum driving the D1 push against jfm, this is her. Slightly leaning scum but nothing conclusive.

8 Pikanchion
Says a ton which somehow makes it even harder to get a read. I like his methodology and I haven't seen him do or say anything super fishy. Leaning town.

9 BuJaber
Strong town read on this guy.

10 chapcrap
Chap has managed to ignore the accusations made against him long enough for the town to move on to other things. I do want to have another crack at this guy, but he's low on my list.

11 TX AG 90
Same ballpark as Blacky.

12 Ragian
Reading town so far. He's been asking the questions I would've asked if I were online, which is a good sign.

15 Sirius Kase
Same ballpark as Blacky and TX.

16 Metsfanmax
The most likely player to be scum right now, imo. He's claiming that his sideline approach is meta for him, but I find it scummy regardless. I think his take on the jfm case was wrong, I already exlained why earlier, and I strongly suspect he had more information about jfm or scum in general that led him to his conclusions. Since he's been reluctant to share that information before we hanged jfm, I'm inclined to think he's scum. I caught Rishaed on the exact same thing in a game a few years ago, and this really smells like it's the same situation. Townie does something scummy, townie gets voted up, scumplayer preaches their innocence and excuses their clearly lynchable offences, townie gets lynched and scumplayer says "I told you so". Pretty standard stuff, honestly.

[dakky21]

2 dakky21
His roleclaim is just a little weird. I wouldn't claim town commuter early if I was town commuter, so I'm somewhat suspicious. His posts and his theories are all over the place. One of his latest theories is that he would've been discovered by a cop if he were scum, after he announced in the thread that all night actions against him will fail. Not sure what to make of that one, other than "that's bollocks".

Read my posts again, I never said I would be discovered by a cop, I said if the cop checked me, he would not find me, and if I were scum, he would probably get other result than no result at all.

[Metsfanmax]

The most likely player to be scum right now, imo. He's claiming that his sideline approach is meta for him, but I find it scummy regardless. I think his take on the jfm case was wrong, I already exlained why earlier, and I strongly suspect he had more information about jfm or scum in general that led him to his conclusions. Since he's been reluctant to share that information before we hanged jfm, I'm inclined to think he's scum. I caught Rishaed on the exact same thing in a game a few years ago, and this really smells like it's the same situation. Townie does something scummy, townie gets voted up, scumplayer preaches their innocence and excuses their clearly lynchable offences, townie gets lynched and scumplayer says "I told you so". Pretty standard stuff, honestly.

I haven't shared any information on D3 that I didn't share on D2. I haven't shared any information on jfm at all today, because I didn't have any that you don't have. If I did have information about jfm/scum in general because I'm scum, then I obviously wouldn't share it at all, which makes this poor reasoning.

I refused to vote for jfm on D2 because the wagon was stupid and I didn't think his erratic play and lying was evidence of scumminess. As for the fact that I pointed out that you were all mostly wrong: I would have preferred that we didn't have to go down that path, but I had people saying that I was obviously scum for defending jfm -- even on D2, before the flip (strike) -- and that either I'm scum or I'm dense (Skoffin). So my hand was forced.

Yes, of course this situation matches one where I'm scum and am defending jfm, but it also matches one where I'm town and just don't agree with you all on how to scumhunt (and I happened to be correct!), and you only seem to be selectively pattern matching against the first scenario. And since that seems to be the main thrust of your argument, you should be quite circumspect before deciding to pursue this further. It should be obvious that "another player did this in a game a few years ago and he turned up scum" is... not the strongest argument this game has.

And also I'll again point out that given how bad jfm played, I would have to be pretty stupid scum to go out on a limb and defend him just to gain town cred. I'm not an idiot, I knew well before the end of D2 that my choice not to vote jfm was going to garner scrutiny regardless of how he flipped. Scrutiny is exactly the opposite of what scum want. The cost-benefit analysis here doesn't work out for me and I wouldn't have done it. I'm not sure what rishaed did in that game, but you must have a pretty low opinion of me if you think this is my strategy.

2 dakky21
His roleclaim is just a little weird. I wouldn't claim town commuter early if I was town commuter, so I'm somewhat suspicious. His posts and his theories are all over the place. One of his latest theories is that he would've been discovered by a cop if he were scum, after he announced in the thread that all night actions against him will fail. Not sure what to make of that one, other than "that's bollocks".

Read my posts again, I never said I would be discovered by a cop, I said if the cop checked me, he would not find me, and if I were scum, he would probably get other result than no result at all.

You strongly urged town not to perform any actions on you since they would be wasted, which would include town investigations. If you're town it would make sense why you would say this, but if one doesn't already believe that you're town then surely you can see how it would look suspicious.

[Tobikera]

3 Tobikera
I considered his accusation of Mets to be that of a slightly misguided towny. He took the only variables he had and mixed them together, which isn't a very good method imo but doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. I dislike the idea of a redirecting role, and I've been thinking about the likelihood of it being a town role. He says we should all be hailing him as the golden towny, not sure why. I'm not as convinced any more that he is town, especially since he says he redirected BuJ who is one of my main town reads. Tob, do you think BuJ is scum? Did you think he was scum when you put your action in? Why?

I have selected players to misdirect who I think are scum. Initially, in D1 I found metsfanmax very clear and logical. Then, just before N1, something he said struck me wrong (and I've gone back and looked but can't find it...will try again). Anyway, for whatever the reason, I selected metsfanmax to be my first misdirection. Waking up on D2, I find that I was successful, and further, after first laying this out for y'all, metsfanmax himself admitted to being misdirected. Then blacky said he was poisoned, and NO ONE ELSE really revealed the result of their N1 experience to any appreciable degree. So, I put 2 and 2 together and thought I got 4, but most of the rest of you thought NOT 4. I also came under some, what I considered, unwarranted criticism and suspicion from BuJaber, and thought he twisted the facts a bit on some other things, so I put him on my FOS list. That led eventually to me choosing him for N2 misdirection. I didn't want to misdirect metsfanmax again, so.... Right now, although his rhetoric has mellowed (as has SW), I sill think he is potentially scum, but have not Voted him, nor re-voted Metsfanmax. Let's just say they are on my FOS list, until I get info that suggests otherwise.

I realize the world of mafia is wider and more complex than I will ever know. However, a basic tenet that I have always held firm is that the job of mafia scum is to lower the population size of Townies until they reach par....ergo, they win. In general, mafia scum do not bus, nor misdirect, nor investigate. Their primary purpose is to night kill townies, and convince other townies during the day to lynch their own. So, to my thinking, someone, like myself, which has been verified as a misdirector, should be town (I am), or at least some third party (I'm not). What would be the purpose of a mafia misdirector in terms of their Primary Directive??

@BuJaber.....Sorry if my answer previously confused you. I only have the one ability...misdirection. However, as with everyone else, if I take the chance to catch my favorite food, I will be able to misdirect three players. That's it. So, on a normal night I will only be able to misdirect one player. And, as I explained before, 30% chance of catching my favorite food is not high enough odds to try for the triple play.

I think a more fruitful discussion could be held on why there were no night kills by mafia. Obviously, my misdirection actions have not yielded a night kill (per the mod's posting), so I didn't interfere with such. Is there some other town that is blocking them, and how lucky would such a person be to select the mafia player that was going to carry out that night kill two nights in a row? Other thoughts?

[Pikanchion]

However, a basic tenet that I have always held firm is that the job of mafia scum is to lower the population size of Townies until they reach par....ergo, they win. In general, mafia scum do not bus, nor misdirect, nor investigate. Their primary purpose is to night kill townies, and convince other townies during the day to lynch their own. So, to my thinking, someone, like myself, which has been verified as a misdirector, should be town (I am), or at least some third party (I'm not). What would be the purpose of a mafia misdirector in terms of their Primary Directive??

You should know the answer to this question, you even demonstrate later in the same post a scenario in which these things scum "do not do" could in fact directly contribute to this primary objective:

I think a more fruitful discussion could be held on why there were no night kills by mafia. Obviously, my misdirection actions have not yielded a night kill (per the mod's posting), so I didn't interfere with such. Is there some other town that is blocking them, and how lucky would such a person be to select the mafia player that was going to carry out that night kill two nights in a row? Other thoughts?

Say Town has a roleblocker, and that roleblocker has successfully blocked the player attempting to perform the Mafia's Night Kill both nights as per your example (assuming a dedicated killing role rather than a shared nominative/elective team ability). If the Mafia somehow (perhaps via an investigative role) discover who this Town roleblocking role is then the following night they could misdirect this player and be able to kill that night. An ability like this is especially useful for scum when it appears the targets of the misdirection do not recieve explicit notification that they were misdirected (as the roleblocker will assume that the person they had been blocking all this time would have been unable to perform the kill that follows).

—

Did anyone get poisoned?

I was poisoned, and the information I received suggests that it's a result of the person who I visited last night.

Can you be more specific on this? -blacky365 appears to have had no such suspicion prior to when Ragian—somewhat ironically—brought the idea up as something he had "never heard of [before]".

Blacky wasn't being discussed for a lynch, this poisoning seems random.

Not so random. I think Blacky is one of the more experienced players. Therefore, if he is town (which I believe), then he would be a prime target.

I don’t play the newbie card, but this is only my 4th game of mafia so I’m pretty inexperienced and would be surprised if I was targeted because I’m a ‘more experienced player’
I think I was prob targeted because of my reaction to the pershy train

With that being said however, blacky365 did consider it the most convincing explanation some pages later. Could you clarify how you came to this conclusion blacky365, did your message from the mod in some way indicate this, as with what Metsfanmax is claiming?

[Tobikera]

Say Town has a roleblocker, and that roleblocker has successfully blocked the player attempting to perform the Mafia's Night Kill both nights as per your example (assuming a dedicated killing role rather than a shared nominative/elective team ability). If the Mafia somehow (perhaps via an investigative role) discover who this Town roleblocking role is then the following night they could misdirect this player and be able to kill that night. An ability like this is especially useful for scum when it appears the targets of the misdirection do not recieve explicit notification that they were misdirected (as the roleblocker will assume that the person they had been blocking all this time would have been unable to perform the kill that follows).

I see what you mean, and admit that this is possible. However, nothing like this happened any time I was scum in a previous game N=2 or 3), nor did I read about it at the game's end in any game I was town (n=11 or 12). I guess in this situation, I've led a "plain vanilla" life in terms of mafia setups. I accept your scenario, but still feel the vast majority of games have mafia just doing night-kills. Others may have different opinions based on their experiences.

[Sirius Kase]

I realize the world of mafia is wider and more complex than I will ever know. However, a basic tenet that I have always held firm is that the job of mafia scum is to lower the population size of Townies until they reach par....ergo, they win. In general, mafia scum do not bus, nor misdirect, nor investigate. Their primary purpose is to night kill townies, and convince other townies during the day to lynch their own.

That sounds like a reasonable premise for an interesting game. If someone was being murdered every night, I could understand the lynch mentality. But, without the Night Kills, lynching based on nothing but rhetoric seems stupid.

So far, all they've done is poison a swordfish (since that was night 0, does it even count?), unsuccessful attack on Skoffin, and a poisoning of blacky which was reversed by Strike Wolf. And what have we done? We've lynched a vigilante. Technically, he was town, not scum, so good for us. But, we also lynched the town wiretapper. If he had been given more time, could he have turned up some evidence to help us identify the real scum? If we keep this up, scum will win without a single night kill.

And, as I explained before, 30% chance of catching my favorite food is not high enough odds to try for the triple play.

I agree. I doubt I'll ever go for that unless I discover I'm starving to death. My PM mentions no triple play so I have even less reason to go for a sucker bet.

I think a more fruitful discussion could be held on why there were no night kills by mafia. Obviously, my misdirection actions have not yielded a night kill (per the mod's posting), so I didn't interfere with such. Is there some other town that is blocking them, and how lucky would such a person be to select the mafia player that was going to carry out that night kill two nights in a row? Other thoughts?

I agree. I'm trying not ask stupid questions, after all, it's only been 3 cycles. I could just be impatient, but is this normal? It could be we have lots of protectors doing their thing and not speaking up about it. Is that what's going on? I'm not insisting on specifics that might be incriminating, I just want to know about the lack of night kills, and whether that's due to ineffective scum or more effective protectors. Other possibility might be a strategy by scum to promote backbiting and infighting. Is that a known strategy? In the real world, it's called divide and conquer.

[Metsfanmax]

I was poisoned, and the information I received suggests that it's a result of the person who I visited last night.

Can you be more specific on this? -blacky365 appears to have had no such suspicion prior to when Ragian—somewhat ironically—brought the idea up as something he had "never heard of [before]".

The message appears to indicate that the person I visited last night is the one who I poisoned me, and the message seems to suggest it was a defensive maneuver in response to my having visited. I am not certain of this fact, but it's the logical reading of the information I received. That's as specific as I will get at this time.

[chapcrap]

10 chapcrap
Chap has managed to ignore the accusations made against him long enough for the town to move on to other things. I do want to have another crack at this guy, but he's low on my list.

Have not ignored any accusation actually...

Anyway, Tobi, I concur that you said you were going to have a different night action. I'll try to go back and find it. Now you're saying it's only misdirection? Hmmm... What does your misdirection do again? Can you explain the specifics of it?

[aage]

Dakky.

Read my posts again, I never said I would be discovered by a cop, I said if the cop checked me, he would not find me, and if I were scum, he would probably get other result than no result at all.

Mets already answered this, but I've dug up the posts because this is just hilariously dumb and I want everyone else to share in my mirth.

Note to town: don't use your powers against me because you will not find me... or use but the result will probably be something about not finding me

and as I said don't spend night actions on me as you won't find me

No, I can't heal anyone. I can only hide during the night so any actions directed towards me are void... I can't help anyone though, just can't be killed at night (or checked or whatever).

One thing has to be taken in the account. No one of those who claimed speak of their secondary actions... OK, I'll start first. OK, I can hide during the night and as I said all actions against me are void.

I will repeat, if you have a town role, don't target me. I will HIDE. You won't find me either you are a killer or whatever. You will lose your action for nothing... use it on someone else you think might be scum.

I was successfully hidden for the night. I still don't understand why do I get the confirmation when the role clearly states - when hidden all actions directed towards me will be void - with that said, I don't think even a role-blocker could block the hiding? Hide should be first then all other actions, right?

@ mets: it makes perfect sense because you knew from the first moment I claimed that I am saying the truth so you went along it and supported me because you knew you can't make a case around me.

@ sirius: I could be bulletproof scum but there are multiple investigative roles and already someone should have checked me and report that it failed. Or maybe they did but they don't want to say it. Welcome to the scum list Sirius.

GEe I woNDeR wHy NObOdy hAS cOMe OuT aFTEr haVINg USeD thEiR niGHt ACtIOn oN ME


====================


Mets.

I haven't shared any information on D3 that I didn't share on D2. I haven't shared any information on jfm at all today, because I didn't have any that you don't have. If I did have information about jfm/scum in general because I'm scum, then I obviously wouldn't share it at all, which makes this poor reasoning.

The idea of a slip is that you're not doing it intentionally. "You may think you've caught me on a mistake, but I would never make a mistake as mafia, ergo I am town." I'm sure this goes against every fiber of your being, but if you didn't have private information about jfm or his claims, there's really no defense that will talk me out of this point. I guess I was addressing the rest of the players with my point, not you directly.


====================


Tobi.

3 Tobikera
I considered his accusation of Mets to be that of a slightly misguided towny. He took the only variables he had and mixed them together, which isn't a very good method imo but doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. I dislike the idea of a redirecting role, and I've been thinking about the likelihood of it being a town role. He says we should all be hailing him as the golden towny, not sure why. I'm not as convinced any more that he is town, especially since he says he redirected BuJ who is one of my main town reads. Tob, do you think BuJ is scum? Did you think he was scum when you put your action in? Why?

I have selected players to misdirect who I think are scum. Initially, in D1 I found metsfanmax very clear and logical. Then, just before N1, something he said struck me wrong (and I've gone back and looked but can't find it...will try again). Anyway, for whatever the reason, I selected metsfanmax to be my first misdirection. Waking up on D2, I find that I was successful, and further, after first laying this out for y'all, metsfanmax himself admitted to being misdirected. Then blacky said he was poisoned, and NO ONE ELSE really revealed the result of their N1 experience to any appreciable degree. So, I put 2 and 2 together and thought I got 4, but most of the rest of you thought NOT 4. I also came under some, what I considered, unwarranted criticism and suspicion from BuJaber, and thought he twisted the facts a bit on some other things, so I put him on my FOS list. That led eventually to me choosing him for N2 misdirection. I didn't want to misdirect metsfanmax again, so.... Right now, although his rhetoric has mellowed (as has SW), I sill think he is potentially scum, but have not Voted him, nor re-voted Metsfanmax. Let's just say they are on my FOS list, until I get info that suggests otherwise.

You keep pushing this idea that your redirection MUST be connected to the poisoning. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's simply very unlikely, somewhat self-important and silly.
Your suspicion of BuJ amounts to OMGUS. Does that make him more likely to be scum? You say you didn't want to redirect Mets twice... why wouldn't you, if you thought he were scum?

I realize the world of mafia is wider and more complex than I will ever know. However, a basic tenet that I have always held firm is that the job of mafia scum is to lower the population size of Townies until they reach par....ergo, they win. In general, mafia scum do not bus, nor misdirect, nor investigate. Their primary purpose is to night kill townies, and convince other townies during the day to lynch their own. So, to my thinking, someone, like myself, which has been verified as a misdirector, should be town (I am), or at least some third party (I'm not). What would be the purpose of a mafia misdirector in terms of their Primary Directive??

Misdirecting an investigator so they don't know who they investigated. Misdirecting a doctor so they can't protect an obvious kill target (or heal a poisoned towny, for that matter). Misdirecting a vigilante or serial killer because the statistical odds of hitting town are higher than hitting scum. Misdirecting a roleblocker that's suspicious of your hitman so they end up blocking any of the above from performing their action.
Not saying you intentionally did any of these things, but your role is very far from obviously not scum. One of the prime directives of scum you've neglected to mention here is to make sure they don't get killed. Scrambling the town's night actions definitely helps with that. I've played in several games with a mafia busdriver, which is similar to your claim.

I think a more fruitful discussion could be held on why there were no night kills by mafia. Obviously, my misdirection actions have not yielded a night kill (per the mod's posting), so I didn't interfere with such. Is there some other town that is blocking them, and how lucky would such a person be to select the mafia player that was going to carry out that night kill two nights in a row? Other thoughts?

I don't think that discussion is very fruitful. Do you want more people to start claiming for no reason? I don't. I honestly could care less why there is no mafia kill, if some towny is responsible for it I'm sure they'll have the good sense to use that information to our advantage. Nobody has reported this, so let's not dwell on it.

fp by Mets
So who did you visit? That seems like pertinent information if we want to catch the poisoner. Do you think they are very likely to be town? I don't.

[Metsfanmax]

fp by Mets
So who did you visit? That seems like pertinent information if we want to catch the poisoner. Do you think they are very likely to be town? I don't.

Again, I only know who I requested to visit, but I am skeptical that I actually visited this person, since I know that the effect of my action was not applied to this person. Earlier in this day I suggested that I was redirected, but Tobi has claimed he didn't target me. And, having thought about it more since I originally brought it up, it's possible that there's another explanation than me being redirected: namely, that the passive poisoner also negates the action that was applied to them. But until I have more information, I'm not sure I want to share the identity of who I targeted.

I could see a passive poisoner being town, though I concede that third party is more likely.

[Sirius Kase]

I think a more fruitful discussion could be held on why there were no night kills by mafia. Obviously, my misdirection actions have not yielded a night kill (per the mod's posting), so I didn't interfere with such. Is there some other town that is blocking them, and how lucky would such a person be to select the mafia player that was going to carry out that night kill two nights in a row? Other thoughts?

I don't think that discussion is very fruitful. Do you want more people to start claiming for no reason? I don't. I honestly could care less why there is no mafia kill, if some towny is responsible for it I'm sure they'll have the good sense to use that information to our advantage. Nobody has reported this, so let's not dwell on it.

I think that takes care of my question. It's likely that scum is trying to kill but the town protectors are stopping them. No one has any good reason to post about the success or failure of their night action, so it looks like nothing is happening. So, I'll be more patient.

[strike wolf]

Problem is you didn't have 2+2. You had 2+2+x+y (with x being who Mets ultimately targeted and y being the effects of said action). It could equal 4 but it could have just likely = 8 or 10 or 12. Yet you advertised it like it all but proved it equaled 4. That's the scummy part. As was pointed out, busdriver and role blocker are about equally likely to be scum as town. I already commented that it's far from impossible for redirector/misdirector to be as well. Furthermore, arguing that scum actions should be directed at creating night kills is pretty flimsy. I mean by that logic, mafia framer & godfather are also useless roles because they actually do less to aid in creating night kills than redirection roles would.

I will give you some town cred. Mets confirmed he was misdirected day 1. If you were scum, as doctor I should be pretty high on your list of players to misdirect. That does not appear to have happened so for that reason, I don't think you are the best or even second or third best lynch candidate right now.

[Tobikera]

10 chapcrap
Chap has managed to ignore the accusations made against him long enough for the town to move on to other things. I do want to have another crack at this guy, but he's low on my list.

Have not ignored any accusation actually...

Anyway, Tobi, I concur that you said you were going to have a different night action. I'll try to go back and find it. Now you're saying it's only misdirection? Hmmm... What does your misdirection do again? Can you explain the specifics of it?

Yes, I said that, as I explained before ,to lessen the chances of any attempt by scum to nightkill me. Sort of make them feel "Whew, well he won't be misdirecting us this next night." However, it was based in some truth because I just found out after N1 that I could misdirect three players in one night. That IS a different night action in terms of quantity, but not quality. However, some time after saying that, I discovered by a prompt from the mod, that I had to kill my favorite food before I could take advantage of that bonus triple-play. And, I'm not going to chance 70% chance of ridicule or death to do that. To answer your last question, I can misdirect one person per night. I send in the person's name, and whatever night action they were going to do to player X, for example, actually gets done on some random player Y. That's it.

[chapcrap]

I can misdirect one person per night. I send in the person's name, and whatever night action they were going to do to player X, for example, actually gets done on some random player Y. That's it.

Thank you.

I'm not sure I buy the explanation about the role change fib, but it's an explanation I guess.

aage, I'm on the same page with you on your last post:

Spoiler

Dakky.

Read my posts again, I never said I would be discovered by a cop, I said if the cop checked me, he would not find me, and if I were scum, he would probably get other result than no result at all.

Mets already answered this, but I've dug up the posts because this is just hilariously dumb and I want everyone else to share in my mirth.

Note to town: don't use your powers against me because you will not find me... or use but the result will probably be something about not finding me

and as I said don't spend night actions on me as you won't find me

No, I can't heal anyone. I can only hide during the night so any actions directed towards me are void... I can't help anyone though, just can't be killed at night (or checked or whatever).

One thing has to be taken in the account. No one of those who claimed speak of their secondary actions... OK, I'll start first. OK, I can hide during the night and as I said all actions against me are void.

I will repeat, if you have a town role, don't target me. I will HIDE. You won't find me either you are a killer or whatever. You will lose your action for nothing... use it on someone else you think might be scum.

I was successfully hidden for the night. I still don't understand why do I get the confirmation when the role clearly states - when hidden all actions directed towards me will be void - with that said, I don't think even a role-blocker could block the hiding? Hide should be first then all other actions, right?

@ mets: it makes perfect sense because you knew from the first moment I claimed that I am saying the truth so you went along it and supported me because you knew you can't make a case around me.

@ sirius: I could be bulletproof scum but there are multiple investigative roles and already someone should have checked me and report that it failed. Or maybe they did but they don't want to say it. Welcome to the scum list Sirius.

GEe I woNDeR wHy NObOdy hAS cOMe OuT aFTEr haVINg USeD thEiR niGHt ACtIOn oN ME


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Mets.

I haven't shared any information on D3 that I didn't share on D2. I haven't shared any information on jfm at all today, because I didn't have any that you don't have. If I did have information about jfm/scum in general because I'm scum, then I obviously wouldn't share it at all, which makes this poor reasoning.

The idea of a slip is that you're not doing it intentionally. "You may think you've caught me on a mistake, but I would never make a mistake as mafia, ergo I am town." I'm sure this goes against every fiber of your being, but if you didn't have private information about jfm or his claims, there's really no defense that will talk me out of this point. I guess I was addressing the rest of the players with my point, not you directly.


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Tobi.

3 Tobikera
I considered his accusation of Mets to be that of a slightly misguided towny. He took the only variables he had and mixed them together, which isn't a very good method imo but doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. I dislike the idea of a redirecting role, and I've been thinking about the likelihood of it being a town role. He says we should all be hailing him as the golden towny, not sure why. I'm not as convinced any more that he is town, especially since he says he redirected BuJ who is one of my main town reads. Tob, do you think BuJ is scum? Did you think he was scum when you put your action in? Why?

I have selected players to misdirect who I think are scum. Initially, in D1 I found metsfanmax very clear and logical. Then, just before N1, something he said struck me wrong (and I've gone back and looked but can't find it...will try again). Anyway, for whatever the reason, I selected metsfanmax to be my first misdirection. Waking up on D2, I find that I was successful, and further, after first laying this out for y'all, metsfanmax himself admitted to being misdirected. Then blacky said he was poisoned, and NO ONE ELSE really revealed the result of their N1 experience to any appreciable degree. So, I put 2 and 2 together and thought I got 4, but most of the rest of you thought NOT 4. I also came under some, what I considered, unwarranted criticism and suspicion from BuJaber, and thought he twisted the facts a bit on some other things, so I put him on my FOS list. That led eventually to me choosing him for N2 misdirection. I didn't want to misdirect metsfanmax again, so.... Right now, although his rhetoric has mellowed (as has SW), I sill think he is potentially scum, but have not Voted him, nor re-voted Metsfanmax. Let's just say they are on my FOS list, until I get info that suggests otherwise.

You keep pushing this idea that your redirection MUST be connected to the poisoning. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's simply very unlikely, somewhat self-important and silly.
Your suspicion of BuJ amounts to OMGUS. Does that make him more likely to be scum? You say you didn't want to redirect Mets twice... why wouldn't you, if you thought he were scum?

I realize the world of mafia is wider and more complex than I will ever know. However, a basic tenet that I have always held firm is that the job of mafia scum is to lower the population size of Townies until they reach par....ergo, they win. In general, mafia scum do not bus, nor misdirect, nor investigate. Their primary purpose is to night kill townies, and convince other townies during the day to lynch their own. So, to my thinking, someone, like myself, which has been verified as a misdirector, should be town (I am), or at least some third party (I'm not). What would be the purpose of a mafia misdirector in terms of their Primary Directive??

Misdirecting an investigator so they don't know who they investigated. Misdirecting a doctor so they can't protect an obvious kill target (or heal a poisoned towny, for that matter). Misdirecting a vigilante or serial killer because the statistical odds of hitting town are higher than hitting scum. Misdirecting a roleblocker that's suspicious of your hitman so they end up blocking any of the above from performing their action.
Not saying you intentionally did any of these things, but your role is very far from obviously not scum. One of the prime directives of scum you've neglected to mention here is to make sure they don't get killed. Scrambling the town's night actions definitely helps with that. I've played in several games with a mafia busdriver, which is similar to your claim.

I think a more fruitful discussion could be held on why there were no night kills by mafia. Obviously, my misdirection actions have not yielded a night kill (per the mod's posting), so I didn't interfere with such. Is there some other town that is blocking them, and how lucky would such a person be to select the mafia player that was going to carry out that night kill two nights in a row? Other thoughts?

I don't think that discussion is very fruitful. Do you want more people to start claiming for no reason? I don't. I honestly could care less why there is no mafia kill, if some towny is responsible for it I'm sure they'll have the good sense to use that information to our advantage. Nobody has reported this, so let's not dwell on it.

fp by Mets
So who did you visit? That seems like pertinent information if we want to catch the poisoner. Do you think they are very likely to be town? I don't.

That being said, I have a lot of different feelings than you about scummy vibes. Not sure where your feelings are from different than mine. I need to do some more digging.

Also, I am changing my vote again because of the post restriction comment from BuJ on D2.

UNVOTE VOTE TOBI

Again, this vote has nothing to do with my feelings at the moment. If I did have to vote right now, I think it would probably be sitting on Mets still. However, this is for the same as the last time I put it on Mets, the post restriction. SW, please do not unvote Mets until a vote count is posted by a mod.

BuJ, speaking of that post restriction, I have been thinking about the cause of your hit with it for day 2. You said you felt like you were on to something on Day 1. Can we go back to that, if that's the case? What do you think you were on to that would have caused you to be the target of scum?

[ZaBeast]

@mets, apart an investigative PR claiming he had incriminating evidence against jfm, what could have given you a scummy read on ifm then?

I'm still waiting on an answer, mets

The player who's place you took, SW, was under suspicion on D1. You taking his place doesn't give you a pass. You're No. 3 on my scum list.

He got only 2 votes on D1: sirius because he was inactive and you because you wanted to get a claim from someone to get information and decided the best way forward was to get an inactive to claim (because, as I already pointed out, a claim from a player basically nobody interacted with is clearly the best source of information to go on)

Don't be too jealous, given the probabilies, I will only misdirect every night (or threaten to..lol). Would you take a 30% chance of lucking into your favorite food balanced against the 50% "wall of shame" if you don't, or the 20% chance of getting killed. These bonus inducements by the mod are sucker bets in my mind. Perhaps a way to move the game on and get it over quicker?

I've thought about it, and it might make sense for some people. My rationale is that, if you are town, the more scum-aligned people see you, you might be better off going for food. That way town either gets a powered-up townie, or gets information without wasting a lynch on you if you happen to be unlucky and die. That is, if your regular night action isn't really useful, as you have to waive it off to go for food.

I was re-reading the last few pages and came across this little gem:

I don't like how dakky seems to try to deter people from targetting him, after he has claimed for no good reason on D1. He said he's been notified that someone targetted him, is someone willing to go on the record saying he has targetted dakky and it didn't work? That might help prove he's not just scum trying to avoid being targetted.

Where did I say I have been notified that someone targeted me? Just point to the post and I'll buy you a beer.

I was successfully hidden for the night. I still don't understand why do I get the confirmation when the role clearly states - when hidden all actions directed towards me will be void - with that said, I don't think even a role-blocker could block the hiding? Hide should be first then all other actions, right?

Seems I didn't read it right. I saw it as the mod telling you someone had targetted you and you have been hidden from them.

BTW. I'm trying to put everything in order in my head. Who already said "I must be town"... ZaBeast, Mets and Skoff (maybe someone else, but these 3 were most noticable). If they're scum, they want me to stay alive till LyLo because they know they can't kill me at night so they don't want to lynch me now when there are better options.

I haven't said that. Point to the post and I'll buy you a beer.

So far, all they've done is poison a swordfish (since that was night 0, does it even count?), unsuccessful attack on Skoffin, and a poisoning of blacky which was reversed by Strike Wolf. And what have we done? We've lynched a vigilante. Technically, he was town, not scum, so good for us. But, we also lynched the town wiretapper. If he had been given more time, could he have turned up some evidence to help us identify the real scum? If we keep this up, scum will win without a single night kill.

- The swordfish wasn't a player, so obviously not relevant
- The poisoning of blacky was claimed by jfm
- But most importantly, how is jfm turning town-aligned vig "good for us"?

[BuJaber]

I think dakky is not as unreadable as people think.
Yeah he might say strange things or come up with weird strategies as either alignments, but you can tell that he has townie-intentions as town. I'm not seeing it here. His claim is just all sorts of wrong, aage described why in a lot of detail. Mainly it is a very back off me sort of claim that, in the end benefits scum more than town. He should have baited night kills, not claimed to be untargetted if he were really looking out for town.

His push on jfm d1 was baseless, I think he just wanted to a wagon he can push as a tunnel and he lucked out when jfm scummed the place up.


Unvote vote dakky

Game circumstances force me to start here first and then move on to other suspects.

[BuJaber]

@chap - nothing specific I don't think? Maybe that I am focusing on the jfm wagon to find scum. But overall I think I speak clearly, and my posts have been pro town, and I have some rapport with people and that makes me dangerous to scum.

[Sirius Kase]

So far, all they've done is poison a swordfish (since that was night 0, does it even count?), unsuccessful attack on Skoffin, and a poisoning of blacky which was reversed by Strike Wolf. And what have we done? We've lynched a vigilante. Technically, he was town, not scum, so good for us. But, we also lynched the town wiretapper. If he had been given more time, could he have turned up some evidence to help us identify the real scum? If we keep this up, scum will win without a single night kill.

- The swordfish wasn't a player, so obviously not relevant
- The poisoning of blacky was claimed by jfm
- But most importantly, how is jfm turning town-aligned vig "good for us"?

I'm not going to try to excuse myself, but I will try to explain my thinking. It may not be correct, but it made sense to me at the time. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm still learning.

- Swordfish was poisoned, it wasn't a player, but a clue that poisoning matters in this game.
- jfm almost killed Blacky. I saw no indication whether or not he knew if Blacky was scum. You don't need to be a mathematical genius to see the problem with that. Purely random kills are not good for town as long as town outnumbers scum. But, maybe he was misdirected and therefore not at fault. If misdirection turns out to be a popular tactic, scum will win. So, it's something we need to be careful with.
- Maybe it wasn't good for us, since he did in fact flip town, that's one less kill scum needs to win. So, not good for us, but not as bad as if we had lynched someone with a better PR. Maybe better not to lynch at all, then we'd still have our vigilante.

I am quite concerned about the lynching of town. Is it really a good idea to lynch when we aren't sure? My concern is partially mitigated by the knowledge that investigations and redirections might be going on that haven't been revealed, or that night kills are being blocked quite effectively by anonymous heros. These are game elements that I haven't been fully aware of until recently. Surely by now, our investigative techniques will provide us with solid evidence. I plan to require more certainty before I join any more bandwagons.

[blacky365]

ok, there is so much reading to do...

I find Dakky and Skoffin top of my scumlist.

Firstly with Dakky, I dont buy a townie having a role that is untraceable at night. This might be a role but I doubt it is town.
And the way he has been daring ppl to come find him is particularly scummy.

I know most of this has been said already I just dont understand how we havent had more votes on him.

Vote Dakky

Skoffin is also reading as really scummy in the way she posts... so sparse and eratic... but her vote will have to wait for another timee.

[Ragian]

Town commuter is a known town role, blacky, and it does something similar to what you're saying.

[blacky365]

Town commuter is a known town role, blacky, and it does something similar to what you're saying.

So if hes a town commuter, he is immune to night kills?
And then the only way he can be killed is a day lynch?

If thats the case then he will be the number one target for scum to lynch during the day... surely anyone who votes him would be scum... eek, do i unvote?

[ZaBeast]

Just a note on the poisoner: if it's passive, wouldn't that just make it a version of paranoid gun owner?