INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Pikanchion]

strike wolf: what is your role's Title and Night Action Role?

[chapcrap]

I have thought about posting this since the day started. I wanted to see what other information was coming out and make sure I had my information straight. I have a mathematical victory for the town. I'm willing to claim and present the information, but I do not want to do so without a couple of questions being answered.

blacky and BuJ, who did you visit when you were poisoned? Maybe you were misdirected, maybe not. But that information is needed.

Skoffin, what was the information that the mod accidentally gave you? Role name or what?

I am also going to to an additional post shortly for a recap of the people that are still alive, so we're on the same page with who has claimed what night actions and where we are at with those.

[strike wolf]

Me: I said I was protected night 3? No you misunderstand. I said I received something that hinted that someone was protecting me n2. I feel like you only half read what I wrote.

Tx: Strike. I didn't ignore the fact that you said you were protected last night.

I'm not sure I should be frustrated by this or find this funny.

You've provided practically no evidence that me and Blacky are working together. I mean what evidence do you have? That Blacky claimed he was poisoned and I said I healed him? Blacky wasn't the same situation as Mets. We had JFM claiming to have poisoned him (as others have said, there s pretty much no other way to interpret that exchange other than JFM taking credit for Blacky's poisoning), that he had reason to believe Blacky was town and JFM flipping town. Whatever we can believe of Jfm after those two days is pretty shaky but it equaled less reason not to visit Blacky than I had with Mets.

@Pika: Doctor. NA Role: Healer. My bonus action would be to protect two people instead of one. I have no intention of going for it.

As far as scumhunting: Tobi is the one I'm most suspicious of. Hes misused logic and while I'm not convinced that there isn't room for two healers And TX may just be misguided (he did make references to believing healing and protection to be separate roles on D3. He could have just been setting up a fake counter claim but in my opinion, it does give credence to the idea that this is a misunderstanding), Tobi has been more than happy to jump on bad reasoning to try to discredit me for a while now. It's been a pattern with him to misuse logic in general (trying to link Mets and Pika to scum actions with no real evidence including misusing modus ponens, probability errors day 3, stating that misdirector can only be town because it doesnt directly help mafia get night kills) which, coming from someone who is highly educated, seems like an intentional attempt to warp facts.

Skoffin: I don't think we can totally let her off the hook for the counter claim issue. I believe both Mets (proven town through death) and ZaBeast who I generally trust have brought up the possibilities of this falling into the interweaving roles mentioned at the beginning of the game but that doesn't fully clear up what actually happened or why she kinda counter claimed in piecemeal fashion long after Dakkys claim.

Sirius and Blacky: I'm linking them together not because they seem like t hey are working as a scum team but more because they are guilty of pretty similar things. Inconsistency and bandwagon jumping. Sirius himself couldn't even hold an opinion two posts in a row today. Blacky meanwhile has been oddly quiet through this whole exchange where accusations have been falling on him despite me seeing him online at different points.

Tx: I've been going back and forth on him a bit. Hes pretty much the lowest on my list of the scum candidates that I mention here but there is some connection with him and Tobi over this whole doctor vs priest thing thst started day 2 and do have a natural distrust for anyone who seems compelled to remind everyone that they're town every 2 posts. Everything else vould be a scum ploy but also comes across like he could just be singlemindedly focusing in on me and falling victim to confirmation bias.

[chapcrap]

1. blacky365 - Poisoned on N1. Presumably redirected into sw. Has not revealed who he targeted on that night.
2. Tobikera - Redirector. Essentially confirmed via Mets. Made many irrational claims about people he redirected, but his redirection ability has been confirmed by a dead townie.
3. strike wolf - claimed doc style role. Confirmed that he healed blacky.
4. ZaBeast - no real information. Has said many different people seemed scummy. Willing to move vote around to many.
5. Skoffin - inactive at first. Counterclaimed the hiding role of dakky. We lynched dakky and he flipped town.
6. Pikanchion - has not claimed anything in any way. Started posting a bit more when he was called out.
7. BuJaber - claimed a post restriction on D2. Unconfirmed on who could have done that. No one has claimed anything like this. Claimed poisoned on D4.
8. chapcrap - me. have not claimed anything yet. Met, Ragian, and TX have vocalized me being scummy at different times.
9. TX AG 90 - claimed doc style role. No confirmation of anything.
10. Ragian - confirmed passive poisoner.
11. Sirius Kase - kind of been all over. Not claimed anything except being a newbie.

show: Skoffin

[Skoffin]

I don't poison anyone, at least poison is not mentioned anywhere in my role. As for the error role info I was given at first; I'm not sure I should elaborate any further on that as it is information I should not have had and it would go against the spirit of the game to post about it.

In your list of events I think it's important to mention that I claimed I had a NK attempt on me and that strike claims he may have been protected N2. Considering we have two NK's last night and we are missing them from the other nights it seems likely that is where our missing nk's went.

[chapcrap]

1. blacky365 - Poisoned on N1. Presumably redirected into sw. Has not revealed who he targeted on that night.
2. Tobikera - Redirector. Essentially confirmed via Mets. Made many irrational claims about people he redirected, but his redirection ability has been confirmed by a dead townie.
3. strike wolf - claimed doc style role. Confirmed that he healed blacky. Claims he was possibly protected on N2.
4. ZaBeast - no real information. Has said many different people seemed scummy. Willing to move vote around to many.
5. Skoffin - inactive at first. Claimed being attacked on N1. Counterclaimed the hiding role of dakky. We lynched dakky and he flipped town.
6. Pikanchion - has not claimed anything in any way. Started posting a bit more when he was called out.
7. BuJaber - claimed a post restriction on D2. Unconfirmed on who could have done that. No one has claimed anything like this. Claimed poisoned on D4.
8. chapcrap - me. have not claimed anything yet. Met, Ragian, and TX have vocalized me being scummy at different times.
9. TX AG 90 - claimed doc style role. No confirmation of anything.
10. Ragian - confirmed passive poisoner.
11. Sirius Kase - kind of been all over. Not claimed anything except being a newbie.

[chapcrap]

Skoffin, thanks. Waiting on the answers for who blacky and BuJ visited when poisoned before laying out my information.

Updated the pertinent info that you let me know I left out. There may have been other items I missed. If anyone knows of anything else, please speak up. I think it's important to have all information out in front of us before we decide on how to proceed. Down 5 town and haven't killed a single scum yet.

[ZaBeast]

Can we talk a bit about skoff? As I said, I have reasons to believe someone stole my action N1. How likely do you think it would be coming from my target? You have a day.

It's been 12 hours...

And 2 pages

@ZB I used an action on myself N1

It doesn't answer anything though. I targetted you and didn't get anything back from the mod, yet from the flavor people let out it seems it landed on someone else. That's what I mean when I say I think my action has been stolen. I suspect someone used my action instead of me. That doesn't fit what you claimed, so if it comes from you it would mean you're scum (also it's not a very town-friendly ability)

@chap: remember that claimed/verified role and alignment is not the same thing

@TX I'll ask again. Are you aware of anything that happened to your action on N2?

[TX AG 90]

Can we talk a bit about skoff? As I said, I have reasons to believe someone stole my action N1. How likely do you think it would be coming from my target? You have a day.

It's been 12 hours...

And 2 pages

@ZB I used an action on myself N1

It doesn't answer anything though. I targetted you and didn't get anything back from the mod, yet from the flavor people let out it seems it landed on someone else. That's what I mean when I say I think my action has been stolen. I suspect someone used my action instead of me. That doesn't fit what you claimed, so if it comes from you it would mean you're scum (also it's not a very town-friendly ability)

@chap: remember that claimed/verified role and alignment is not the same thing

@TX I'll ask again. Are you aware of anything that happened to your action on N2?

Yes, I healed myself from jfm's poisoning.

[ZaBeast]

Yes, I healed myself from jfm's poisoning.

Except you should have been redirected and aware of it. I am the one doing the bumping (The mod told me my action was to bump into my target, causing them to get redirected; there is no pain involved), which is why I said I believe my action has been stolen. I didn't target blacky N1, yet he says he has been bumped and poisoned. I did not get any kind of feedback about my N1 action from the mod.

Originally I thought my target had poisoned me so I did not want to reveal who it was, however since jfm claimed (in a roundabout way) that he was my attacker, I reread the pm from the mod and the wording was that on my way to my target I was bumped into and I felt a pain in my side... so my target was not my poisoner but probably jfm or someone else.

I confirm this language about a pain on the side of my body. However I was not told I was bumped into, and the language indicates that my target is the one who poisoned me.

(The "bumped into" bit sounds like what happened to Tobi on N2 though?)

As said above, I am a redirector (although my special ability is different and my night action role fits the special ability and not my night action). As opposed to tobi, I do know who my target is redirected to (you might remember on D2 I thought tobi claimed he knew he redirected mets towards blacky. That was because of my own redirecting ability). N2, I targeted tobi and it landed on TX. That being said TX might have been bussed, but something fishy is going on. There is always the possibility tobi has been roleblocked on N2 and that I got an "hypothetical" result about the redirection , as the mod didn't reply when I asked him if I would get a result if I targeted someone who had been roleblocked or didn't cast an action (though I was notified I couldn't find my target on N3 as I was confused, which I assume means I've been roleblocked (I haven't been really successful with night actions so far ), so tobi would probably have claimed being roleblocked, and mets (silencer, which I assume is some sort of roleblocker) targeted Ragian N2)

My own role is one of the main reasons I've been suspicious of Tobi. I can't counter-claim his role because people have confirmed tobi's ability, but I'm doubtful town has 2 redirectors whose night action would be so similar. I recently realized tobi's ability is actually completely useless to town as his redirecting can't give any insightful result and just messes things up (whereas mine is marginally helpful as I could target whoever performs the NK for the scum team), which would make sense as an ability scum has.

In case people are wondering why I targeted skoff and not jfm on N1, I was suspicious of skoff (though less so than jfm), and had a lot of conflicting factors to take into account
1- My ability can only catch scum if I redirect the one performing the NK: I felt skoff was more likely to be trusted with the NK than jfm had either been in a scum team because she had been under less scrutiny (and therefore less likely to be targeted by watchers and other investigative roles)
2- jfm claimed doc, and therefore if he targeted anybody that got killed he could only be lying about his ability
3- there might be an assigned kill and in that case any scum is equally likely to have gotten it at the beginning of the game.
I decided to target skoff due to point 1, but points 2 and 3 (and the fact I was more suspicious of jfm) had me seriously consider targeting him and not skoff. In hindsight I wish I had targeted jfm.

My scum picks for the day
-Tobi
-Skoff
-blacky (low priority)
-TX? (low priority)

[Skoffin]

What made you think I was scum then? And what makes you think I am scum now? I haven't stolen any abilities from you. That night all I did was protect myself and prevented a NK against me and saw what species attacked me. I can't steal anything. You are falling into the same trap that Tobi is; just because you picked me and lost your ability doesn't mean that someone who can steal abilities did not choose you that night.

[Ragian]

I can't get my head around what you're saying, ZB. Could you make like easy notes for thick people like me?

Anyway, the silencer role...isn't that the one that gave a PR to BuJ? Just gonig by the name there...

I'd also like to add that Tobi is playing to his meta. He always looks at "evidence" rather than interaction. I'd vote others before him as it is right now.

[BuJaber]

1. The mod keeps things intentionally vague. Don't read too much into things quthout confirmation.

2. I read the post restriction many times for example. I may have been targetted. Or maybe it was because my action failed and that was the penalty (action penalty - I didn't go for food). But the thing is my role PM doesn't tell me if anything will happen to me if my action fails and it also failed last night and I didn't get silenced.

3. I targetted skoffin. Maybe she poisoned me, though it would kinda be suicide for her to claim her ability if that's the case, because that's like the simplest explanation. But I also can't be sure I wasn't targetted by someone else. That's what's worrying me. The people who keep talking about wild theories and explaining events in their own way are the most suspicous to me. Why are they so invested in figuring out the right story, when we can scumhunt perfectly fine by looking at posts, votes, and motives.

Like the thing is I don't know where any of the confidence that other people have is coming from. I simply don't know for sure about anything that I did or that happened to me during the nights. There are several possibilities, the mod gives me no definitive answers.

For example what if I never reached skoffin, and that's why my action failed?
Or does she bite, poison, and make the person's action fails also? Because that sounds super op. And if it is super op in scum's hands I just don't think it would be a scum role. There's already several anti scum roles going on, some from confirmed townies that are now dead. The game is already against us, giving scum!skoffin a role that can block, protect herself, and poison the person targetting her would be insane.

So basically I propose we lynch in the trio of TX/tobi/chapcrap. People who are trying to take incomplete information to try and paint other people as scummy.

[BuJaber]

This game is pissing me off I'm getting jeallus of aage for getting killed at night.

[BuJaber]

I can't get my head around what you're saying, ZB. Could you make like easy notes for thick people like me?

Anyway, the silencer role...isn't that the one that gave a PR to BuJ? Just gonig by the name there...

I'd also like to add that Tobi is playing to his meta. He always looks at "evidence" rather than interaction. I'd vote others before him as it is right now.

Mets said he targetted you not me. Maybe Tobi's redirection made it land on me?

[blacky365]

Where to begin. I think sequentially is best.

There were several discussions after N1 on whether there were multiple poisoners. People kept saying that if someone else was poisoned, wouldn’t they have revealed themselves and asked for help and I kept saying there are other reasons possible. I wanted people to speculate and maybe trip-up scum. I KNEW someone else was poisoned, but couldn’t reveal it at the time and here is why.

I was poisoned N1. So why, didn’t I reveal myself. Simple, I am the Town Priest and have the ability to either Protect someone during the night OR Heal them from poison.

ETC ETC ETC

Ok, so im fine with being pointed at, this is mafia and absolutely no one is above suspicion. Im also not childish enought to hit back with an OMGUS vote.
However, if you want to accuse me and strike then get your facts straight... You say me and strike are working together, but this just woudlnt happen in mafia. From what I understand, scum generally do everything they can to avoid being labelled as on a team. If we were on a team, I would not have shouted about being poisoned and he would not have had to claim. As has already been pointed out, claiming doc is a dangerous move as you then become a target for scum. No doc = no one to save the poison victims.
Your other 'piece of evidence' is the wording i used during one exchange.
I have already explained that both wordings are just two ways of saying the same thing, I guess the only other thing I can add to my defence of the initial wording is that I was responding to a specific question and responded in the same manner as I was spoken to. We can not copy and paste so everything is paraphrased... the wording was simply mirroring what was said before, however was factually correct.

--------

I am sure that there are multiple healers just the same as there are multiple poisoners, but to suggest that we lynch one doc and if that doc flips town to lynch the other doc is absolute madness!
If we do that we are literally doing scums job for them and this is such an easy win for scum.

IMO docs must be left alone and protected if poss at night.

_______

blacky and BuJ, who did you visit when you were poisoned? Maybe you were misdirected, maybe not. But that information is needed.

Chap and others keep going on about this despite me saying it is irrelevant... it appears that I did not reach my target, I was poisoned on my way. So me saying who my target was will only muddy the waters further, that being said, to keep you happy my target was Strike. Now, how does that help anyone?

________

1. The mod keeps things intentionally vague. Don't read too much into things quthout confirmation.

2. I read the post restriction many times for example. I may have been targetted. Or maybe it was because my action failed and that was the penalty (action penalty - I didn't go for food). But the thing is my role PM doesn't tell me if anything will happen to me if my action fails and it also failed last night and I didn't get silenced.

3. I targetted skoffin. Maybe she poisoned me, though it would kinda be suicide for her to claim her ability if that's the case, because that's like the simplest explanation. But I also can't be sure I wasn't targetted by someone else. That's what's worrying me. The people who keep talking about wild theories and explaining events in their own way are the most suspicous to me. Why are they so invested in figuring out the right story, when we can scumhunt perfectly fine by looking at posts, votes, and motives.

Like the thing is I don't know where any of the confidence that other people have is coming from. I simply don't know for sure about anything that I did or that happened to me during the nights. There are several possibilities, the mod gives me no definitive answers.

For example what if I never reached skoffin, and that's why my action failed?
Or does she bite, poison, and make the person's action fails also? Because that sounds super op. And if it is super op in scum's hands I just don't think it would be a scum role. There's already several anti scum roles going on, some from confirmed townies that are now dead. The game is already against us, giving scum!skoffin a role that can block, protect herself, and poison the person targetting her would be insane.

So basically I propose we lynch in the trio of TX/tobi/chapcrap. People who are trying to take incomplete information to try and paint other people as scummy.

Now here is a man who makes a lot of sense to me... I agree with most of whats being said, I would only add that Skoff needs to be added to the scum list after staking her life on the dakky lynch!


Lastly, i have said multiple times that I struggle to post at the weekend. I am able to read the forum on my phone and post a quick one liner if necessary, but the post from TX required a more detailed response so I had to wait until today.

[Razorvich]

[Pikanchion]

The mod keeps things intentionally vague. Don't read too much into things quthout confirmation.

Well this is certainly true... I just found out that part of my initial role PM was written to be intentionally vague, but done in such a way that made it seem like concrete information. Part of me is tempted by the idea of a mass claim at this point but the two things that worry me about such a proposal currently are:
1. With roles like these it may be pretty easy for scum to just make up something, and multiple flipped Town roles have already sounded at least a little scummy (so scum may be able to partially or even fully claim their actual abilities and not be obviously scum to the rest of us).
2. If we have a traditional Cop role or similar they are currently unknown to scum (probably), and a mass claim would change that.

I'll write a larger post soon-ish, probably at some point tomorrow (real time).

[ZaBeast]

@rage tl:dr version
The important facts
-I bump my target so they get redirected, but I know who the redirection lands on
N1: I targeted skoff. No result from mod, blacky says he's been bumped (and poisoned)
N2: I target tobi. Redirect him into TX. Therefore he should have been redirected (and unable to save himself) unless bussed

My conclusions
- Someone "stole" my action N1. By that I mean I think my action has been redirected by someone else and (I assume) they'd get the result.
- Tobi's role is pretty similar to mine, but useless to town. Therefore it's one of the reasons I've come suspect him.
- It is unlikely TX could have healed himself on N2 based on what has been claimed so far. If bussed, tobi's redirection couldn't have landed on him, but he couldn't have auto-targeted himself either.

What made you think I was scum then? And what makes you think I am scum now? I haven't stolen any abilities from you. That night all I did was protect myself and prevented a NK against me and saw what species attacked me. I can't steal anything. You are falling into the same trap that Tobi is; just because you picked me and lost your ability doesn't mean that someone who can steal abilities did not choose you that night.

I targeted you on N1 because of a combination of the low posting and something that rubbed me the wrong way, can't remember exactly what.
I do know it is a possibility someone targeted me, but the ability you claimed is close enough that it would make sense you are the one who stole my action. Had there been no flavor associated with my action I would have believed I have been roleblocked. I'd still rather go after tobi though

Mets said he targetted you not me. Maybe Tobi's redirection made it land on me?

You're talking about 2 different nights here

[chapcrap]

I'm working and will work on getting out a post with my information during the day. I'm sure I'll be fastposted (more like slowposted, amirite?!) during the day.

[TX AG 90]

@rage tl:dr version
The important facts
-I bump my target so they get redirected, but I know who the redirection lands on
N1: I targeted skoff. No result from mod, blacky says he's been bumped (and poisoned)
N2: I target tobi. Redirect him into TX. Therefore he should have been redirected (and unable to save himself) unless bussed

My conclusions
- Someone "stole" my action N1. By that I mean I think my action has been redirected by someone else and (I assume) they'd get the result.
- Tobi's role is pretty similar to mine, but useless to town. Therefore it's one of the reasons I've come suspect him.
- It is unlikely TX could have healed himself on N2 based on what has been claimed so far. If bussed, tobi's redirection couldn't have landed on him, but he couldn't have auto-targeted himself either.

What made you think I was scum then? And what makes you think I am scum now? I haven't stolen any abilities from you. That night all I did was protect myself and prevented a NK against me and saw what species attacked me. I can't steal anything. You are falling into the same trap that Tobi is; just because you picked me and lost your ability doesn't mean that someone who can steal abilities did not choose you that night.

I targeted you on N1 because of a combination of the low posting and something that rubbed me the wrong way, can't remember exactly what.
I do know it is a possibility someone targeted me, but the ability you claimed is close enough that it would make sense you are the one who stole my action. Had there been no flavor associated with my action I would have believed I have been roleblocked. I'd still rather go after tobi though

Mets said he targetted you not me. Maybe Tobi's redirection made it land on me?

You're talking about 2 different nights here

I don't know what to tell you Beast. I healed myself N2 and was told by Mod that I was feeling better.

Isn't N2 the night Tobi claimed to target Mets and was confirmed by Mets? Maybe you were blocked?

Do you know who the redirection lands on post fact or do you choose who the redirection lands on?

[TX AG 90]

3. I targetted skoffin. Maybe she poisoned me, though it would kinda be suicide for her to claim her ability if that's the case, because that's like the simplest explanation. But I also can't be sure I wasn't targetted by someone else. That's what's worrying me. The people who keep talking about wild theories and explaining events in their own way are the most suspicous to me. Why are they so invested in figuring out the right story, when we can scumhunt perfectly fine by looking at posts, votes, and motives.

How is trying to put together a story any different that looking at posts? Aren't they both being used to catch someone in a lie? I've requested numerous times for help in scumhunting but nobody else seems to want to bother so I look at posts, try to piece together a story and figure out a most likely scenario. I know of no other way.

Also, I have been averaging 3.5 hours/sleep a day over the last 10 days. It looks like I'm doing more harm than good to the town team, so I think I'll become more passive. I'll still heal who needs to be healed and vote if I'm convinced, but if I can't convince you guys that I am telling the 100% truth and let you use that info to track down scum, here's no more need for me to post any more theories.

[TX AG 90]

Also, I thought after my initial post, that lynching blacky was a slam dunk. I see the flaw in some of my conclusions have been pointed out. I'll unvote for now, but if pressed for a vote, I would go:

1. blacky
2. SW
3. pika
4. Chap
5. skoffin (probably a 3rd party like SK)

Unvote Blacky

[TX AG 90]

One more informational nugget I didn't share yet because I assumed I was poisoned by jfm N1 and never reached my target.

N1 I assumed scum would not target me since i wasn't really a threat. I decided to protect whoever I thought at that time was most likely to be town. I didn't have a good read on anybody at the time and felt blacky was most likely to be town.

I chose to protect him but never made it to him. I only got the - before you reach your target, you feel a jolt of pain - message. That's when I found out I had been poisoned.

[blacky365]

@TX
Firstly, although I shouldn’t say this because you have me in your crosshairs, don’t stop what you are doing!
Whether you are on the right track or not is irrelevant, it’s adding to discussion and I believe it’s the scum who are trying to make you feel guilty for posting... don’t let them get the better of you!


You say you were on your way to me and you were poisoned along the way... is it possible that the same person who poisoned you poisoned me?
And why wait until now to share this? It would have been mighty useful to have known this earlier when we were looking for a poisoner!