Most deadly wars ever

[DoomYoshi]

I came here to complain about Taiping Rebellion reason listed. I see numerous others have beaten me to the punch.

There always is a sort-of difficult "True Scotsman" fallacy when it comes to religious identity. Nonetheless, I disagree with full-on 'self-identification' of religion, even though it is good enough for the census.

On the self-identification though, it isn't clear if any of them would've called themselves Christians.

For the marks of a Christian, perhaps the most noteworthy is the usage of the Bible to inform doctrine and teaching. That is why the Christians are called the "People of the Book" in the Quran. Other fundamental tenets might include trinitarian belief and incarnation theology (although all three of these are debatable in some sects). Either way, Hong Huoxiu read the Bible (made his own translation also), held belief in the trinity and the incarnation.

However, the reason for the Taiping Rebellion came from the religious persecution of those Christians.

[jusplay4fun]

According to the poll it's a dead heat between Chinese and Christians for the world's deadliest people.

Poll changed so we can start exploring people's views in more detail.

You want to give a measure of credibility to your silly poll, ralf? How many people replied? TWO? Even if it is TEN, is that a poll with any measure of reliability or even significance? It may in your mind, but I have already pointed out its biases BUILT into its very choices.

After it was pointed out HOW BIASED ("Shit Europe") his initial poll was, ralf is compelled to change it.

And no help from that person who has been banned from CC for inappropriate posts.

[jusplay4fun]

Q: How many died in the crusades?
A: I should give a caveat here: it is very difficult to estimate because of our source material. Medieval chroniclers are notoriously unreliable when they give figures of battles and losses. Other types of evidence – for example charter evidence – may help to give us a better picture. Nevertheless, we’re dealing with very unreliable sources. As I’ve also already said, some of the crusades are big expeditions and others much smaller. These factors need to be taken into account when we try and make estimates.

There are figures ranging from 1 million to 9 million over the whole period from 1095 to 1291. John Robertson famously, in his Short History of Christianity – a very old but seminal book first published in the early 20th century – had that really huge figure of 9 million. But I’ve seen other historians estimate much lower numbers. When I’m giving these figures, I’m including Christians, Muslims and all those who followed the armies, not just the combatants. So, yes, there are estimated figures within the historiography, everything between 1 million and 9 million.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/crusades-causes-history-when-how-many-were-there-death-toll/

We recently sat down with Professor Rebecca Rist of the University of Reading – who has written several books including The Papacy and Crusading in Europe, 1198-1245, and Popes and Jews, 1095-1291 – to find out more about the medieval Christian campaigns in the Middle East for an episode of the HistoryExtra podcast.

[bigtoughralf]

People like ISIS, terror attackers in Europe etc. are routinely referred to as 'Muslims' simply for self-identifying as Muslims, regardless of how many imam or other authorities on Islam go on the record saying those terrorists don't understand the Quran and are not really Muslims. All that matters is that the attacker says they are Muslim.

In this thread I am simply applying the globally accepted standard for defining someone's religion, which is self-identification. The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom was founded by someone who believed in the Christian God, acting on what he believed to be god's instructions. Therefore he is a Christian.

[jusplay4fun]

People like ISIS, terror attackers in Europe etc. are routinely referred to as 'Muslims' simply for self-identifying as Muslims, regardless of how many imam or other authorities on Islam go on the record saying those terrorists don't understand the Quran and are not really Muslims. All that matters is that the attacker says they are Muslim.

In this thread I am simply applying the globally accepted standard for defining someone's religion, which is self-identification. The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom was founded by someone who believed in the Christian God, acting on what he believed to be god's instructions. Therefore he is a Christian.

You again bend the truth to fit your biases, ralf. Muslim extremists who claim to be Muslim use the words in the Quran to justify their murder of others. When the begin their terrorist acts and shout ‘Allahu Akbar!’ THAT makes them Muslim. ALL these things cause others to label their acts as those of murder as those of "Muslim Terrorists" and Muslim extremists.

AND for their murderous acts and hate they should be condemned.

[jonesthecurl]

The Spanish Armada was declared to be a Crusade too.

[bigtoughralf]

People like ISIS, terror attackers in Europe etc. are routinely referred to as 'Muslims' simply for self-identifying as Muslims, regardless of how many imam or other authorities on Islam go on the record saying those terrorists don't understand the Quran and are not really Muslims. All that matters is that the attacker says they are Muslim.

In this thread I am simply applying the globally accepted standard for defining someone's religion, which is self-identification. The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom was founded by someone who believed in the Christian God, acting on what he believed to be god's instructions. Therefore he is a Christian.

You again bend the truth to fit your biases, ralf. Muslim extremists who claim to be Muslim use the words in the Quran to justify their murder of others. When the begin their terrorist acts and shout ‘Allahu Akbar!’ THAT makes them Muslim. ALL these things cause others to label their acts as those of murder as those of "Muslim Terrorists" and Muslim extremists.

AND for their murderous acts and hate they should be condemned.

Good, so you agree that the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom - whose leader deferred to the Christian God and followed the Bible - were Christians.

[DoomYoshi]

People like ISIS, terror attackers in Europe etc. are routinely referred to as 'Muslims' simply for self-identifying as Muslims, regardless of how many imam or other authorities on Islam go on the record saying those terrorists don't understand the Quran and are not really Muslims. All that matters is that the attacker says they are Muslim.

In this thread I am simply applying the globally accepted standard for defining someone's religion, which is self-identification. The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom was founded by someone who believed in the Christian God, acting on what he believed to be god's instructions. Therefore he is a Christian.

When did they ever say that they were Christians though? You never replied to any of the points in my post above.

[bigtoughralf]

Did a man who believed in the Christian god, baptized himself, translated the Bible to Chinese for his followers etc. consider himself a Christian?

What's the part you think he forgot to do? Click his heels three times and say 'there's no place like being nailed to a cross'?

[jusplay4fun]

People like ISIS, terror attackers in Europe etc. are routinely referred to as 'Muslims' simply for self-identifying as Muslims, regardless of how many imam or other authorities on Islam go on the record saying those terrorists don't understand the Quran and are not really Muslims. All that matters is that the attacker says they are Muslim.

In this thread I am simply applying the globally accepted standard for defining someone's religion, which is self-identification. The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom was founded by someone who believed in the Christian God, acting on what he believed to be god's instructions. Therefore he is a Christian.

You again bend the truth to fit your biases, ralf. Muslim extremists who claim to be Muslim use the words in the Quran to justify their murder of others. When the begin their terrorist acts and shout ‘Allahu Akbar!’ THAT makes them Muslim. ALL these things cause others to label their acts as those of murder as those of "Muslim Terrorists" and Muslim extremists.

AND for their murderous acts and hate they should be condemned.

Good, so you agree that the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom - whose leader deferred to the Christian God and followed the Bible - were Christians.

Again, ralf

1) ignores what I posted;
2) offers instead a false account of what I posted;
3) is FULL of POOP.

4) Apparently ralf also ignored DoomYoshi, too.

Get your head out of the sand, ralf.

And just to OFFER cogent and clear refutation of what ralf is trying to PEDDLE:

Throughout history, China was plagued by internal revolts and rebellions. Often these revolts were movements that gave people hope for a different life and offered an end to their suffering. For this reason, the Chinese authorities were always suspicious and alert for the development of any group that challenged traditional beliefs in family and state. The 1800s were no different. What was striking, however, was the kind of rebellion that occurred and the extent of the upheavals.

No other event devastated China as much in the 19th century as the Taiping (pronounced tie-ping) Rebellion (1850-64). It was sparked by the leadership of one man, Hong Xiuquan (pronounced shiou-chuan), from the south of China, who in 1847 failed the imperial examinations for the third time and was delirious for 30 days. When he recovered, he believed that he and his band of believers had been chosen to conquer China, destroy the demon Manchu rulers, and establish the Taiping Tianguo — the Heavenly Kingdom of Great Harmony. Gathering followers first from the poor and outcast, he and his recruits gradually built up an army and political organization that swept across China. They made their way to central China and by the late 1850s controlled over a third of the country. Their movement was so strong and so popular that it took the central government millions of dollars and fifteen years to defeat them. Not until 1864 was the rebellion brutally put down. It is estimated that the entire rebellion cost more than twenty million lives (twice that of World War I). Even by the 1950s, some parts of central China had not yet fully recovered from the destruction of the Taiping era.

Taiping Beliefs

The Taipings took their beliefs from many different sources. Some of these beliefs reflected traditional Confucianism and some were from ancient writings that described ideal systems that had never been practiced. Other ideas were Western in origin. Clearly this blend of ideas was very powerful. Because they introduced ideas never discussed before, the Taipings could promise their followers a totally new system.

Their revolutionary program was very wide-ranging. It introduced notions of common property, land reform, equal position of women, abstinence from opium, tobacco and alcohol, calendar reform, literary reform, and above all, a new political-military organization of society.

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/china_1750_taiping.htm

My source never mentions the Christian influence on the Taiping Rebellion (1850-1864). You are again shown TO SPREAD FALSEHOODS lies, and misleading ideas, ralf. If you continue, you will return to your former small, weak, and soft status.

[jonesthecurl]

Try googling 'Taiping Christianity'. There's plenty there.

[jusplay4fun]

The Spanish Armada was declared to be a Crusade too.

In my opinion, this is too late. And Christian vs. Christian, Catholic vs. Protestant, is wrong religious battle.

The first Crusaders had a variety of motivations, including religious salvation, satisfying feudal obligations, opportunities for renown, and economic or political advantage. Later crusades were generally conducted by more organized armies, sometimes led by a king. All were granted papal indulgences. Initial successes established four Crusader states: the County of Edessa; the Principality of Antioch; the Kingdom of Jerusalem; and the County of Tripoli. The Crusader presence remained in the region in some form until the fall of Acre in 1291. After this, there were no further crusades to recover the Holy Land.

Proclaimed a crusade in 1123, the struggle between the Christians and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula was called the Reconquista by Christians, and only ended in 1492 with the fall of the Muslim Emirate of Granada. From 1147, campaigns in Northern Europe against pagan tribes were considered crusades. In 1199, Pope Innocent III began the practice of proclaiming political crusades against Christian heretics. In the 13th century, crusading was used against the Cathars in Languedoc and against Bosnia; this practice continued against the Waldensians in Savoy and the Hussites in Bohemia in the 15th century and against Protestants in the 16th. From the mid-14th century, crusading rhetoric was used in response to the rise of the Ottoman Empire, only ending in 1699 with the War of the Holy League.

The term "crusade" was stretched and over-used to include whatever political battle and war that the Pope wanted. To me, this is like Saddam Hussein calling the upcoming battle vs. the Coalition in 1991 the "Mother of All Battles." The term the "Mother of....." became trite when referring to Battles and Saddam's utter military defeat led to that phrase dropping OUT of favor.

[jusplay4fun]

Try googling 'Taiping Christianity'. There's plenty there.

Calling Taiping Christianity a form of Christianity is, to me, like calling Scientology a form of Christianity, too. Neither is truly Christian, based on all I have read and ALL that has been posted here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

[bigtoughralf]

Oh I see. So when someone identifying themselves as a Muslim commits terrible acts they're a Muslim, but when someone identifying themselves as a Christian commits terrible acts they're a fake?

Then what's it called when someone who doesn't identify themselves as a bigot posts a load of Islamophobic nonsense?

Again, ralf

1) ignores what I posted;

I also keep my headphones in and avoid eye contact, don't forget that bit.

[DoomYoshi]

Did a man who believed in the Christian god, baptized himself, translated the Bible to Chinese for his followers etc. consider himself a Christian?

What's the part you think he forgot to do? Click his heels three times and say 'there's no place like being nailed to a cross'?

Hong never identified himself as a Christian, a follower of Jesus, a disciple of Jesus or any other phrase that might indicate he self-identified as a Christian.

If you read my post at the top of page 2, you will see that I agree with you on the externals. My only qualm is that you are labeling Hong and the movement he started with terms that they would not use of themselves.

That's obviously because you are a Scientologist.

(See how it feels?)

I must note that I made an error in that post. The more I study Taiping theology, I see a rejection of the trinity and the incarnation - two doctrines which I would consider fundament to Christianity. So all that's left is the emphasis on the book.

[jusplay4fun]

My only qualm is that you are labeling Hong and the movement he started with terms that they would not use of themselves.

What terms are those, DY?

[DoomYoshi]

My only qualm is that you are labeling Hong and the movement he started with terms that they would not use of themselves.

What terms are those, DY?

Christian. Followers of Jesus... anything like that.

The Taiping teaching is that Jesus was one of God's messengers, just like Hong. So Hongs writings are accepted as par with the Bible. It's similar in that regard to Islam where Jesus is regarded as just another prophet.

[jusplay4fun]

My only qualm is that you are labeling Hong and the movement he started with terms that they would not use of themselves.

What terms are those, DY?

Christian. Followers of Jesus... anything like that.

The Taiping teaching is that Jesus was one of God's messengers, just like Hong. So Hongs writings are accepted as par with the Bible. It's similar in that regard to Islam where Jesus is regarded as just another prophet.

So, to clarify, you contend that the Hong and the movement he started did not use terms like "Christian" and "followers of Jesus" to describe themselves?

[jusplay4fun]

According to the poll it's a dead heat between Chinese and Christians for the world's deadliest people.

Poll changed so we can start exploring people's views in more detail.

so ralf was forced to change his poll in light of the evidence presented that he was BIASED in using the term "Shit Europe"?? I cannot BELIEVE SUCH a thing, that ralf is BIASED...!! Say it ain't so....!

[jusplay4fun]

Oh I see. So when someone identifying themselves as a Muslim commits terrible acts they're a Muslim, but when someone identifying themselves as a Christian commits terrible acts they're a fake?

Then what's it called when someone who doesn't identify themselves as a bigot posts a load of Islamophobic nonsense?

Again, ralf

1) ignores what I posted;

I also keep my headphones in and avoid eye contact, don't forget that bit.

So you admit that you ignore what I post and ignore the facts that I present. Well Done, ralf. You only give me more reasons to FOE you, keep you FOED, and to mostly ignore the garbage you post most of the time.

And as I said earlier, you ignore information presented by DoomYoshi, too. You are truly NOT enlightened. You must be as I hypothesized: an unappreciative, biased, and hateful immigrant living in the U.K. and wishing you could have it better back home in Palestine. With your headphones on, you bury your head in the sand.

[bigtoughralf]

I replied to DY, he seems reasonably sane and coherent and doesn't just repeat the same one point over and over in the hope of browbeating people into believing it.

Anyhoo, the consensus of the poll seems to be to downplay the number of people killed by the Taiping by going with the lowest estimates that exist. Given this thread has hyped up deaths caused by Chinese at every opportunity, but refuses to do so in this case, we can take that as this forum's agreement that Hong was Christian (hence the special treatment by OT's Christian user base).

POLL UPDATED

[jusplay4fun]

I replied to DY, he seems reasonably sane and coherent and doesn't just repeat the same one point over and over in the hope of browbeating people into believing it.

Anyhoo, the consensus of the poll seems to be to downplay the number of people killed by the Taiping by going with the lowest estimates that exist. Given this thread has hyped up deaths caused by Chinese at every opportunity, but refuses to do so in this case, we can take that as this forum's agreement that Hong was Christian (hence the special treatment by OT's Christian user base).

POLL UPDATED

And let me add, that unlike DY, you are not. Since I have you FOED, I have to click on each response that you post, so it is POSSIBLE that you responded to DY and I missed it.

It is YOUR poll and I do not have access to the data to offer an reasonable response to data.

Oh, and now you have had to REVISE your silly and insignificant poll for the second time? Get it RIGHT and get it together, ralf. You have failed twice already. You know what they say about 3 strikes, RIGHT?

BUT I am sure that again you draw the wrong and biased conclusion, UNLESS you are the ONLY VOTE to support your tenuous hypothesis. Your conclusion may be supported by a 2-1 or even 3-2 outcome, but that only supports my conjecture that your poll is quite meaningless.

And same ONE point? Which point is that? That you are anti-Christian, anti-American, anti-Semitic, anti-West, anti-UK, or pro-Muslim or pro-Palestine? Or is it the point that you lack coherence and lack logic? Which one point is it, ralf?

Or are you referring to the threads where I show that your buddy saxi continues to spread obfuscation?

Or is it the point that I show the global warming is indeed man-made?

[thegreekdog]

I like that you used the phrase "in [religion's] name." By my reckoning, most wars are not engaged in for any reason other than the accumulation of power and/or wealth. They are dressed up in different things and one of such things may include religion. I suppose the Crusades were started for purely religious reasons, but apart from that I fail to see a situation where religion was the primary driver and motivation for war.

Tl;dr version - "Hey y'all, I'm the Buddha reincarnate, let's go attack these people over there so I can get more money and power... erm, I mean for my religion. Yeah, religion, that's it!"

[DirtyDishSoap]

Guys, guys!

I had a revelation.

Space commies vs the dinosaurs.

Planetary genocide on a scale we've never seen. That's clearly the most deadly war ever.

Any and all other wars is minute in comparison and you're just wrong. Move along.

[DoomYoshi]

I like that you used the phrase "in [religion's] name." By my reckoning, most wars are not engaged in for any reason other than the accumulation of power and/or wealth. They are dressed up in different things and one of such things may include religion. I suppose the Crusades were started for purely religious reasons, but apart from that I fail to see a situation where religion was the primary driver and motivation for war.

Tl;dr version - "Hey y'all, I'm the Buddha reincarnate, let's go attack these people over there so I can get more money and power... erm, I mean for my religion. Yeah, religion, that's it!"

30 years war...?